S-FM 220: Empire

[RLVG]

Now that's interesting, why do you feel the need to claim right away when you only have one vote on you ?

The only reason you want to vote me is to lynch me, you guys already have the information needed. Policy or scum lynch, rather than pressure vote.
Doing this prematurely so that you guys can focus on other players to pressure.

Having multiple effective reads allows for a more wellthought lynch.



One vote is more or less irrelevant too, and why are you calling me out on doing this and not Mesk?

[Calix]

I've tried to argue with you, and i'm also considering the possibility of you convincing MZ to vote me, as i said, either way it's productive.

You care entirely too much about whether people will vote you or not.

MZ literally said that you're a town-read yet you're still concerned that he might be swayed to vote you.

That's 100% scum rationale.

[Calix]

deathworlds is L-2, I'm pretty sure. Nobody else vote him.

[Unknown1234]

L-3.

[MattZed]

You fail to provide examples of how I miss repoed Sino. I would actually like to see you explain this.

I know when you call me out for saying "I feel" is just an easy attack on how I type directly and not to how it's scummy or in any relation to my scum play. That's pretty sad.

I don't know why you say I haven't made thoughts still. Just because I haven't made long wall posts with a summary of my thoughts does not make then any weaker or stronger. Other people have found them.

#72 and especially #76. In #76 Sino was driving a major hole through Calix's plan to have the leader reveal, and you were calling Sino out on it... for some reason.

[Calix]

The only reason you want to vote me is to lynch me, you guys already have the information needed. Policy or scum lynch, rather than pressure vote.
Doing this prematurely so that you guys can focus on other players to pressure.

Having multiple effective reads allows for a more wellthought lynch.



One vote is more or less irrelevant too, and why are you calling me out on doing this and not Mesk?

Can you explain your thoughts on the current trains please since you are under less 'pressure' now?

L-3.

Whoops, mb.

[Unknown1234]

Also Matt, since I miss repped Sino so badly, why do you think I would have switched off him when everyone was willing to lynch him?

[Sino]

Sino, my read on you is perpetually weakening because Calix is making fair points against you that you're only strengthening. I don't scumread Calix, nor am I really exposing why someone should or could scumread her. If you have an argument to make, you need to be making it yourself.

My argument is, as said in my earlier post, i see no reason for town to be hard defending another player based on just a citizen claim, like Calix is doing with Mesk, this just doesn't feel genuine at all, Calix keeps dismissing everyone coming at Mesk, i can't see her doing this without a scum agenda. As town, you'd be wanting to see what others have to say to defend themselves.

[Unknown1234]

Whoa, he did it again. Dino trouble.

Both of these points were said with reason behind my arguement which you must have clearly missed if you didn't see it. My post was directly referring to how Sino said "Calix it doesn't look like you to say".

[Unknown1234]

Sino why are you ignoring my involvement of defending Mesk as well?

[MattZed]

Actually, that's really convenient how earlier you said you had no read on me because nothing stuck out to you. Now all of a sudden you're saying that at the beginning was when I played the weakest. Are you saying you weren't reading the thread at all then?

I had a feeling of discomfort from before but couldn't be sure if there was something there I actually disliked or if I just had a gut feeling that might not hold. When I read back, I saw that there was something actually worrying.

There are different levels of reading, Unknown. One can't be forming deep alignment-indicative insights at the same time that they're keeping up with discussion. I chose to not focus on your posts while I was keeping up with discussion because they were the least relevant to the points I was making at the time, as you'll note by our comparatively minimal interaction.

[Calix]

My argument is, as said in my earlier post, i see no reason for town to be hard defending another player based on just a citizen claim, like Calix is doing with Mesk, this just doesn't feel genuine at all, Calix keeps dismissing everyone coming at Mesk, i can't see her doing this without a scum agenda. As town, you'd be wanting to see what others have to say to defend themselves.

This is the first time you've actually said this as a reason to scum-read me.

Your wall-post scum-read me because I wasn't pushing Mesk to participate, lmao.

[Sino]

The only reason you want to vote me is to lynch me, you guys already have the information needed. Policy or scum lynch, rather than pressure vote.
Doing this prematurely so that you guys can focus on other players to pressure.

Having multiple effective reads allows for a more wellthought lynch.



One vote is more or less irrelevant too, and why are you calling me out on doing this and not Mesk?

Because i know how Mesk reacts to such play, on the other hand it's my first game with you.

You care entirely too much about whether people will vote you or not.

MZ literally said that you're a town-read yet you're still concerned that he might be swayed to vote you.

That's 100% scum rationale.

Don't you feel like i'd argue more with MZ if i cared that much ? He's called me out on that.

[Unknown1234]

I had a feeling of discomfort from before but couldn't be sure if there was something there I actually disliked or if I just had a gut feeling that might not hold. When I read back, I saw that there was something actually worrying.

There are different levels of reading, Unknown. One can't be forming deep alignment-indicative insights at the same time that they're keeping up with discussion. I chose to not focus on your posts while I was keeping up with discussion because they were the least relevant to the points I was making at the time, as you'll note by our comparatively minimal interaction.

Two things here:

1.) You sound completely robotic from this post which makes me feel weird about it.

2.) You just got mad at me for saying "feel" and you just did it yourself.

[MattZed]

You care entirely too much about whether people will vote you or not.

MZ literally said that you're a town-read yet you're still concerned that he might be swayed to vote you.

That's 100% scum rationale.

Actually this.

-vote Sino

@Sino , you've been looking bad lately. I see you starting to fully phrase an argument about Calix, centered on an alleged white knighting of Mesk.

Please continue to make these arguments about players you find scummy. Consider my vote encouragement.

[RLVG]

Can you explain your thoughts on the current trains please since you are under less 'pressure' now?

Deathworlds plays his usual play, so it's pretty much NAI based on meta. As for the discussions themselves, he's oddly neutral. I don't quite see the irritationality that's mentioned.

Sino on the other hand is also their usual play, with a little teaspoon of hotheadedness. (Is that a word?)
A somewhat aggressive writing style and questioning, but as I don't know this player enough it's also a NAI.

If we look past the votes though and instead look at the votes...
Unknown moved his "policy" on to DW.
SuperJack who I called out as a fencesitter, votes DW - for the reason of that they got "quickly mad" and played scum last game.
MattZed votes on DW for half the same reason : sheer irrationality that's "forced".

Secondpassing...
...

-vote deathworlds

CHOO CHOO

NEED I SAY MORE?

[Sino]

Sino why are you ignoring my involvement of defending Mesk as well?

Because you're stating you think Mesk is town, that's fine, you didn't went after everyone who doubted Mesk like Calix did.

This is the first time you've actually said this as a reason to scum-read me.

Your wall-post scum-read me because I wasn't pushing Mesk to participate, lmao.

I was also talking about you pocketing her, remember ?

[Calix]

Don't you feel like i'd argue more with MZ if i cared that much ? He's called me out on that.

That's WIFOM which renders your point invalid.

You just got mad at me for saying "feel" and you just did it yourself.

Ahahahahaha

[Unknown1234]

My god I'd vote Matt 1000 times if I had enough votes. This just reassures my read.

[MattZed]

Two things here:

1.) You sound completely robotic from this post which makes me feel weird about it.

2.) You just got mad at me for saying "feel" and you just did it yourself.

1. LOL purposefully phrasing things in terms of my feel criticism.

2. My point was not using the "feel" language, but rather using nothing that to cast shade. Yes, I had feelings which we're talking about now, but you didn't see me casting doubt on you earlier just because I had a gut feeling. I waited to make sure I had actual posts to back it up and could explain why. You've shaded much more easily.

[RLVG]

If we look past the votes though and instead look at the votes...

I meant look past the players.

[Calix]

I was also talking about you pocketing her, remember ?

YOU'RE SCUM-READING BOTH OF US!

HOW THE FUCK CAN I POCKET SOMEONE THAT YOU'RE SCUM-READING? HOW HAS THIS NOT MADE YOU RECONSIDER YOUR READ ON EITHER OF US?

WHO THE HELL POCKETS THEIR TEAM MATE?

HOLY SHIT.

[Unknown1234]

1. LOL purposefully phrasing things in terms of my feel criticism.

2. My point was not using the "feel" language, but rather using nothing that to cast shade. Yes, I had feelings which we're talking about now, but you didn't see me casting doubt on you earlier just because I had a gut feeling. I waited to make sure I had actual posts to back it up and could explain why. You've shaded much more easily.

You didn't even address my post where I explained how I wasn't miss reposing and that you falsely read into the situation.

Matt brings up my past shade-throwing. That's actually really scummy for me.

[MattZed]

YOU'RE SCUM-READING BOTH OF US!

HOW THE FUCK CAN I POCKET SOMEONE THAT YOU'RE SCUM-READING? HOW HAS THIS NOT MADE YOU RECONSIDER YOUR READ ON EITHER OF US?

WHO THE HELL POCKETS THEIR TEAM MATE?

HOLY SHIT.

Calix, please take a breather and realize that defending someone who's not under too serious of pressure is basically a textbook guide to white knighting/ pocketing. Even if you haven't had that as your intention, Sino raised a fair point.

[Calix]

Deathworlds plays his usual play, so it's pretty much NAI based on meta. As for the discussions themselves, he's oddly neutral. I don't quite see the irritationality that's mentioned.

Sino on the other hand is also their usual play, with a little teaspoon of hotheadedness. (Is that a word?)
A somewhat aggressive writing style and questioning, but as I don't know this player enough it's also a NAI.

If we look past the votes though and instead look at the votes...
Unknown moved his "policy" on to DW.
SuperJack who I called out as a fencesitter, votes DW - for the reason of that they got "quickly mad" and played scum last game.
MattZed votes on DW for half the same reason : sheer irrationality that's "forced".

Secondpassing...
...


NEED I SAY MORE?

Do you think the quality of DW's train is telling as to what alignment he could be? If not, why?

I think you're covered who you suspect. Who do you town-read again?

[Sino]

Actually this.

-vote Sino

@Sino , you've been looking bad lately. I see you starting to fully phrase an argument about Calix, centered on an alleged white knighting of Mesk.

Please continue to make these arguments about players you find scummy. Consider my vote encouragement.

I found my earlier post :

Alright, let me pull some of your quotes :



Not really a good argument when you've mentionned WIFOM in sp's case, and that's the only argument you gave for your Mesk town read.



You completely dodged my question here, i thought read lists were also a tool for town to generate discussion about them.





Tell us how a train on someone who doesn't particiapte is bad, it forces them to post more, thus giving us more to read.

Why would a scum want to pocket Mesk ? Easy, she'll probably survive until the end game given everyone reads her as null, and won't also be targeted for a kill given she does nothing, making her the perfect target to pocket to be able to secure lynches in the end game.

Again how is it a shitty train of it's on someone who doesn't participate that people want to hear more of ?

My argument is, as said in my earlier post, i see no reason for town to be hard defending another player based on just a citizen claim, like Calix is doing with Mesk, this just doesn't feel genuine at all, Calix keeps dismissing everyone coming at Mesk, i can't see her doing this without a scum agenda. As town, you'd be wanting to see what others have to say to defend themselves.

That's my argument MZ

[Calix]

Calix, please take a breather and realize that defending someone who's not under too serious of pressure is basically a textbook guide to white knighting/ pocketing. Even if you haven't had that as your intention, Sino raised a fair point.

No, it's complete bullshit because he has both of us as scum-reads yet he claims his scum-read of me is based on trying to pocket Mesk...who he scum-reads...and he hasn't considered this AT ALL.

It does not add up.

Ten pence that he's making it up as he goes along.

[Sino]

No, it's complete bullshit because he has both of us as scum-reads yet he claims his scum-read of me is based on trying to pocket Mesk...who he scum-reads...and he hasn't considered this AT ALL.

It does not add up.

Ten pence that he's making it up as he goes along.

I said i have a null on Mesk

[Calix]

I said i have a null on Mesk

You put her down as a scum-read in your reads list, lol.

[MattZed]

You didn't even address my post where I explained how I wasn't miss reposing and that you falsely read into the situation.

Matt brings up my past shade-throwing. That's actually really scummy for me.

Unknown, I'm just not going to respond to you for the rest of the day unless you start making arguments. You repeated something I did, and then you said you found it scummy. BUT YOU NEVER AT ANY TIME SAID WHY. This is a horrendous pattern I'm seeing out of you; stating your premises and your conclusions, but leaving completely open how you got them. Are you just actually afraid to give reasoning because you don't think you can actually fake it as scum, or is there a better reason you're being so curt?

I've already explained why you're a scumread for me. You still are, and your current actions are strengthening it. It's clear neither of us are on the block today, so we can have this spill over tomorrow. But right now I'm not going to keep wasting my time.

[Sino]

You put her down as a scum-read in your reads list, lol.

That was the list of the people i'm willing to lynch.

[MattZed]

I said i have a null on Mesk

You put her down as a scum-read in your reads list, lol.

[citation needed]

Can whichever one of you is right please prove it?

[Calix]

Actually wait, I remembered his reads incorrectly. He put Mesk down in his "would lynch" pile which I misconstrued as scum-reads.

My bad.

Here are the players i'm fine with being lynched :

-Calix : She did suggest for the neutral to do something he'd never do, plus the fact she's not asking Mesk to participate, i know she generates a lot of discussion, but the town's goal is to lynch scum.
-RLVG : In his few posts, he didn't really give his opinion about anything that has happened in this game, his posts do nothing for town.
-Mesk : Yeah, she claimed citizen, so what ? That's mostly personal, but why would she given a free pass for her "plays" every game ?

All this does is show that he doesn't actually have scum-reads though xD

[RLVG]

Do you think the quality of DW's train is telling as to what alignment he could be? If not, why?

I think you're covered who you suspect. Who do you town-read again?

DW's train is plain shit, yeah. It doesn't really show what alignment that he is, because there could still be dumbtown / bussing / tunnel / TvT / et cetera, rather it's putting a limelight / shade upon the players that voted him for the way they did it.



Actual town-reads?
I'd say YZB and Silverwolf. A quick ISO can show the several hints of town motivation. Ika is a null to town-lean (somewhere in that range).
Still unsure about reading you, Calix. It's either neutral or Town to me, which is better than organized scum, but if we look past the neutral read - it'd be town.

[Sino]

Actually wait, I remembered his reads incorrectly. He put Mesk down in his "would lynch" pile which I misconstrued as scum-reads.

My bad.



All this does is show that he doesn't actually have scum-reads though xD

Thanks for proving my point about you pocketing Mesk, and i don't have any scumreads ? lol

[Calix]

DW's train is plain shit, yeah. It doesn't really show what alignment that he is, because there could still be dumbtown / bussing / tunnel / TvT / et cetera, rather it's putting a limelight / shade upon the players that voted him for the way they did it.



Actual town-reads?
I'd say YZB and Silverwolf. A quick ISO can show the several hints of town motivation. Ika is a null to town-lean (somewhere in that range).
Still unsure about reading you, Calix. It's either neutral or Town to me, which is better than organized scum, but if we look past the neutral read - it'd be town.

A reasonable response. I was just wondering if you subscribe to the school of thought that would suggest DW is more likely to be town because of the train quality or what have you.

Can you expand on the yzb read? I think you're the first person to town-read him like that.

Other than that, I don't have any other questions at this point. Chat is quite busy as you can see.

[Calix]

VOTE COUNT 3 (probably)

• RLVG (1 [L-6]):
  Sino
  

  ---

  deathworlds (3 [L-4]):
  SuperJack, secondpassing, Unknown1234
  

  ---

  Sino (4 [L-3]):
  MattZed, SilverWolf, Calix, Mesk514
  

  ---

  yzb25 (1 [L-6]):
  ika
  

  ---

  Mesk514 (2 [L-5]):
  deathworlds, RLVG

I should probably compile these so that we have links to the votes for future reference.

However I suspect EOD will be hectic. I'll put them in my Last Will just in case so nobody else has to worry about that.

[Unknown1234]

DW's train is plain shit, yeah. It doesn't really show what alignment that he is, because there could still be dumbtown / bussing / tunnel / TvT / et cetera, rather it's putting a limelight / shade upon the players that voted him for the way they did it.



Actual town-reads?
I'd say YZB and Silverwolf. A quick ISO can show the several hints of town motivation. Ika is a null to town-lean (somewhere in that range).
Still unsure about reading you, Calix. It's either neutral or Town to me, which is better than organized scum, but if we look past the neutral read - it'd be town.

I don't understand the first chunk of this.

[Unknown1234]

Unknown, I'm just not going to respond to you for the rest of the day unless you start making arguments. You repeated something I did, and then you said you found it scummy. BUT YOU NEVER AT ANY TIME SAID WHY. This is a horrendous pattern I'm seeing out of you; stating your premises and your conclusions, but leaving completely open how you got them. Are you just actually afraid to give reasoning because you don't think you can actually fake it as scum, or is there a better reason you're being so curt?

I've already explained why you're a scumread for me. You still are, and your current actions are strengthening it. It's clear neither of us are on the block today, so we can have this spill over tomorrow. But right now I'm not going to keep wasting my time.

You twisted your argument here, but I'll respond later if that's what you'd like.

[RLVG]

Can you expand on the yzb read? I think you're the first person to town-read him like that.

Maybe later, gotta do more real life duties now. It's safe to say though that there's some town-motivated posts in the ISO.

I don't understand the first chunk of this.

Well, Calix seems to have understood it.

[Unknown1234]

Maybe later, gotta do more real life duties now. It's safe to say though that there's some town-motivated posts in the ISO.



Well, Calix seems to have understood it.

So because one person gets it everyone should? K.

[Calix]

So because one person gets it everyone should? K.

I think he was arguing that DW's shitty train doesn't say much about his alignment because of the possibility of dumb townies, TvT fights, scum bussing, etc.

tl;dr: He doesn't want to jump to conclusions.

[Unknown1234]

I still don't get why that impacts his train unless I still don't understand.

Why is that exclusive to Deathworlds?

[Calix]

I still don't get why that impacts his train unless I still don't understand.

Why is that exclusive to Deathworlds?

Well I specifically asked him "do you think his train tells us anything about his alignment" if that helps.

Not really a relevant point of discussion though so...

[MattZed]

Well, I'm going to bed now. I should be back a few hours before EoD. (for real this time) Try not to have Sino dead by the time I get back. He may have said something that makes him worthy of my earlier read in that time.

[Sino]

Well, I'm going to bed now. I should be back a few hours before EoD. (for real this time) Try not to have Sino dead by the time I get back. He may have said something that makes him worthy of my earlier read in that time.

You won't miss much, i'll go out in about 2 hours and come back before EoD, it's mostly gonna play out at that moment.

[Unknown1234]

Did SilverWolf have any reasons for voting Sino?

[Sino]

Did SilverWolf have any reasons for voting Sino?

Yes, she stated them way earlier, basically my OMGUS if i recall correctly.

[Calix]

Did SilverWolf have any reasons for voting Sino?

From the vote post:

Both the above quotes are super defensive. It's like Sino is attacking the first person to question him about anything in an attempt to turn it around on his attacker immediately. This seems pretty off so far.

I'm thinking of moving my vote to you or Sino. I don't like either one of you. Sino is overly defensive at just the slightest pressure and you just seem to be neutral hunting disguised as set up spec to help town. Right now I have a scumread on both of you. I'll start with Sino.

Where are you going with this? >_>

[Unknown1234]

Deathworlds plays his usual play, so it's pretty much NAI based on meta. As for the discussions themselves, he's oddly neutral. I don't quite see the irritationality that's mentioned.

Sino on the other hand is also their usual play, with a little teaspoon of hotheadedness. (Is that a word?)
A somewhat aggressive writing style and questioning, but as I don't know this player enough it's also a NAI.

If we look past the votes though and instead look at the votes...
Unknown moved his "policy" on to DW.
SuperJack who I called out as a fencesitter, votes DW - for the reason of that they got "quickly mad" and played scum last game.
MattZed votes on DW for half the same reason : sheer irrationality that's "forced".

Secondpassing...
...


NEED I SAY MORE?

My vote wasn't a policy so don't know what he's referring to.

It's interesting to me that he seems to be suspicious of SuperJack but hasn't really made any attempt to put pressure on him.

Also, SP voted up Sino and yet he only considers the vote discouraging towards Deathworlds.