S-FM 214 Mean Girls

[Unknown1234]

you are actually going all out on me by making something more extreme than it needs to be. You have yet to realize that your contribution is more important than what Suntax did or what I feel he did that was scummy.

[Unknown1234]

I need to sleep it's 1. I don't like Matt's attitude I think it's way more hostile than his usual Town self but that's just my opinion. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[MattZed]

Everyone has to analyze. Scum have to analyze or at least attempt it in order to appear townie.

Look, you replaced into a pretty bad slot. I'm probably going to keep voting you unless a better case appears against another player. The case is:

1. Suntax admits he's on the mafia


2. Suntax says he is rusty in an attempt to pre-empt errors in a display of scum-guilt


Unknown presents some reasoning on why he doesn't like this:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post643927
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post643932
I present some reasoning on why I don't like this:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...l=1#post643945

3. Suntax is really blendy with his "just checking in" post which seems like scum trying to stay under the radar and post just enough to coast through the day



@MattZed if not you then who should we lynch today and why.

You are still arguing that Suntax, in a mere two sentences, made a post so clearly damning that he must be scum and should be lynched at once. Your argument is simultaneously bad and opportunistic. Really, it's only now that you noticed an alleged scumslip? That's not evaluating a slot; that's looking at who you want to make a case against and simply figuring out how you could make it.

I don't trust you, and I'm not going to continue playing this game of defending an introductory post I didn't make that you and Unknown have unreasonably tunneled into. I've already stated that we should lynch Unknown, and I've already stated why.

There is no way in hell you two are both town.

[MattZed]

I need to sleep it's 1. I don't like Matt's attitude I think it's way more hostile than his usual Town self but that's just my opinion. I'll catch up tomorrow.

I don't let scum go when I think I've found them, and if you really read my past games you would know that. (see: FF7)

Nice job just sliding in the discredit there but distancing from it with "just my opinion."

[MattZed]

Reading this silly argument is funny. MattZed is turning my read of Suntax as a misrep of him. Instead of trying to be productive and doing he isn't doing what he should be doing as town. Such as...

A.) proving why I'm scum

Or

B.) Providing reads or scum-hunting

Instead he spent his time saying that I misrepresented him by arguing about a word and clinging to the fact that one post isn't enough to scum-read someone. I really don't see any reason for you to scum-read me, and I'm surprised you haven't commented elsewhere because I can name three people who had a read on me based on my first post. So tell me Mr.Zed, when are you going to pick up where Suntax left off and actually do something? Or are you scum and going to push your "Unknown misrepped me he's scum" theory.

For one, the notion that productivity=town is bullshit and you know it.

Second, you misrep me by suggesting that I'm not productive. I have been scumhunting, and I've found you. "I really don't see any reason for you to scumread me." Really? READ ANY OF MY POSTS. I have directed several posts at you and Whad explaining my suspicions toward you. I came into this game three hours ago, and if you're going to say I haven't put effort into this game so far you're plainly distorting the facts.

[MattZed]

The entire first paragraph relies on me having to know his entire background, and saying that I need to meta read him. If there is no meta read, I'm not going to do it and will instead go against what I believe to be scummy.

That being said, you have spent your entire time arguing with me and trying to full force discredit me. You haven't even considered anything else I've said, or the fact that me asking you that question was to get you engaged in discussion.

Unknown, if you actually flip town, we're going to have a long conversation after this game about how to read people. As I've ranted in several other instances, "scummy" is just a lazy word that doesn't actually mean anything. If something indicates scum alignment, you have to actually make that case. A necessary part of that is arguing why a person would be more likely to do something as scum than as town. For instance, scum tend to act more like they know what's going on because they're informed, but a good town (and bullheaded bad town) will have reads and project a similar aura of confidence. Thus, acting confident isn't a scumtell because a town is very likely to do it as well.

You have not yet said why you believe Suntax wouldn't call himself rusty as town. You've merely asserted that he wouldn't. This is a necessary part of the argument.

[secondpassing]

That was some cake.

How is everyone?

Hm, how are you?

Today was quite good and now I'm sleepy. Very productive.

[secondpassing]

what I liked that post in particulary? quite arousing.

you and second passing. You dont like my reasons well tuff shit broski I aint here to impress you drop the second K and maybe we can talk

I don't like your reason either.

-vote secondpassing

omgus was real secondpassing and duck are scum gg

You didn't bother to wonder why I omgus'd.
And you're probably not going to even go back and look.

[secondpassing]

I'm less here than you would believe. Just replaced in because Frog PM'ing me triggered an e-mail. I'm busy until later tonight.

No idea what you have against the FM god that is Suntax. Surely he couldn't have messed things up so much that you're going to hard scumread someone who needed a replacement.

I appreciate the humility, but are you agreeing with what Suntax has said? Is it something you would have done?

I will grant you that inexperienced scum tend to have a guilt complex.

However, in order to scumread Suntax for saying something, you still need to make the claim "Suntax as scum is much more likely to say this than Suntax is as town." The notion of 'scum guilt' makes it plausible Suntax would claim to be rusty as scum, but you still need to assume that Suntax isn't going to claim to be 'rusty' as town, which is wrong. Suntax has a reputation of being shamed for being inactive in games. (he even abandoned hosting a game!!) At the end of the day, he'll want to not keep getting shamed, which means not letting his teammates down, regardless of alignment. Why would he bother apologizing in day chat when he would have a night chat to apologize to a scum ally? Unknown's argument, even if the non-overstated version you present it, doesn't prove what it claims to, and that bothers me.

Suntax as scum is much more likely to lurk than if Suntax was town. I totally agree that if he was in a team, he would not want to let them down, BUT players feel more like in a team if they are on the scum team {personal experience}. Because they are on the scum team, they feel the need to appease more than a town usually does in most cases. Considering his personality, I think Suntax would act in this way {meta}. There is really all there is to go on right now. Aside from Suntax's opening post, your opening post, and a bunch of reactive comments, there is little to comment on concerning your slot.

You say it needs a defense. I though, find it odd that you are defending it instead of dismissing it.

You are still arguing that Suntax, in a mere two sentences, made a post so clearly damning that he must be scum and should be lynched at once. Your argument is simultaneously bad and opportunistic. Really, it's only now that you noticed an alleged scumslip? That's not evaluating a slot; that's looking at who you want to make a case against and simply figuring out how you could make it.

I don't trust you, and I'm not going to continue playing this game of defending an introductory post I didn't make that you and Unknown have unreasonably tunneled into. I've already stated that we should lynch Unknown, and I've already stated why.

Whad has been slow concerning that. On the other hand, if the day would have to end in the next 5 minutes and I had all the vote power and marshall power, I would lynch Suntax.

You don't have to continue playing this game of defending an introductory post you didn't make as long as you comment on something else.

[secondpassing]

Seems to me like the argument isn't about whether playing town or scum requires skill; it's more about the mindset of both alignments. Most townies have a sort of self righteousness about them where they don't really care if they come across as a little bit scummy since they have the truth behind them and don't fear a cop check. Scum on the other hand may be more cautious to try to avoid being lynched and to avoid being checked. This caution manifests itself in subtle ways such as calling one's self "rusty" as a pre-emptive excuse of one's behavior. Scum guilt can result in a lot of pre-emptive excuses.

I haven't pinned down Whad's alignment, but what she(?) is saying is that scum are a bit cautious.
And I totally agree with this statement. To take it further, I believe that scum, being inherently the trash of the earth are made be gotten rid of.

That sense of exclusion makes people feel bad morally, and will affect their attitude in games.
Some players (I think Suntax included) are more likely to replace out as scum because it is hard to do what is "wrong".

@MattZed

What scum-motivation does Unknown have for getting all argumentative about semantics of "rusty." And like, how is that more scummy than a lot of other behavior we've seen here. I don't understand your response to the "rusty" argument and I'm trying to understand it beyond the face value OMGUS.

^This. So much.
I don't know if Unknown is emulating the way I read people or what, but I don't see why he would use this style if he was scum.
Perhaps he would try to use an analysis style more easily agreed with as scum.
Thus, I see Unknown as town.

[secondpassing]

Please explain how you've PoE'd someone as scum on D1 of a 9-player game. If you're town, how did you establish 6 townreads so quickly?

This post. I hate it. Why are you trying to break town unity?

::

Also, are you going to say the counter argument? (i.e. Is Purebe town in your eyes? Is Eggy town in your eyes?)

[secondpassing]

There. Pretty colors. Now @Eggy HAS to read it.

[secondpassing]

Notice me Tama-kun (Eggy)

[MattZed]

I appreciate the humility, but are you agreeing with what Suntax has said? Is it something you would have done?

I don't really see what there is to "agree" with Suntax in his one post. I read it as a fluff post promising activity but not delivering.

Suntax as scum is much more likely to lurk than if Suntax was town. I totally agree that if he was in a team, he would not want to let them down, BUT players feel more like in a team if they are on the scum team {personal experience}. Because they are on the scum team, they feel the need to appease more than a town usually does in most cases. Considering his personality, I think Suntax would act in this way {meta}. There is really all there is to go on right now. Aside from Suntax's opening post, your opening post, and a bunch of reactive comments, there is little to comment on concerning your slot.

I strongly disagree. Suntax is probably the most-replaced player in our site's history. A game he hosted had to be cancelled because he went AWOL. If memory serves, I led the first ever attempted policy lynch on this site, and it was against Suntax for always lurking out of games. The idea that he's more likely to lurk as scum simply isn't true.

You say it needs a defense. I though, find it odd that you are defending it instead of dismissing it.

Basically everyone reads a lack of a defense as an admission to guilt. I would be doing my fellow town a disservice (by letting them scumread me for not responding) to not explain how poor Unknown's logic was.

Whad has been slow concerning that. On the other hand, if the day would have to end in the next 5 minutes and I had all the vote power and marshall power, I would lynch Suntax.

You don't have to continue playing this game of defending an introductory post you didn't make as long as you comment on something else.

Frankly, I'm not really addressing the post anymore. I find the responses of Unknown and Whad to be much more interesting, and it's these that I've been commenting on.

[MattZed]

This post. I hate it. Why are you trying to break town unity?

::

Also, are you going to say the counter argument? (i.e. Is Purebe town in your eyes? Is Eggy town in your eyes?)

"Town Unity"? How do you know that Whad or any of their alleged townreads are in fact town? Whad is claiming that my slot is PoE'd into being scum, (although interestingly, they don't bring up this line of argument in summary post #245) which means they're confident enough to make 6 townreads, which is absolutely crazy at this stage in the game.

Unknown and Whad are my top two scumreads. Although now that you bring it up, the scummier of the two is becoming Whad for me. I would be incredibly surprised if they were both town. (and also if both scum, because spending both scum going after me this hard, knowing I'd flip town if they actually succeeded, is a far riskier move than they would need to make) Between the two, Whad really feels like the scum trying to buddy a town. He (she?) tries to explain Unknown's reasoning from a somewhat detached position, merely discussing what the argument is and not so much taking a position on it. Perhaps you need to be in my shoes of being pressured by these two to see it, but I very much get the feeling of Whad trying to buddy Unknown.

But it is more than that. The reasoning just looks fake. Doesn't bring up the PoE point since I questioned, doesn't notice an alleged scumslip until long after the fact, and doesn't adjust the "strategic lurker" read to account for the fact that Suntax actually got replaced out. It doesn't add up to a town trying to sincerely read my slot. He's not using his vote to pressure me into providing more information. He's pushing my lynch based off of Suntax's one post and won't hear anything to the contrary.

-vote Whad

[SuperJack]

Lol I love being woke up and told I'm a video tape. I'll get to this game once I'm not naked and hungry

[Unknown1234]

Matt if your excuse for only considering/voting people accusing you is because you "caught scum" then I'm not impressed.

You literally have done NOTHING. I doubt you've read anything else I've said outside this argument because that seems to be the only thing you care about. You have done nothing else to make me believe you are Town, and yes I do find your play to be scummy right now. You are trying to take either of us down, and making it pretty clear that neither of us can be scum.

It's not a misrepresentation and it's actually really annoying to hear you say that because you really haven't done anything,

I already said why Rusty isn't something a town player would say. There is NO way you can be rusty at playing town.

Also, it doesn't matter when Whad picked up a slip really, it's still something to be considered.

[Unknown1234]

Also, Mesk and Eggy have completely snuck out of the game recently. Not enjoying that.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

-vote mattzed

Trust me. First and only time I will use the trust me logic.

[Unknown1234]

-vote mattzed

Trust me. First and only time I will use the trust me logic.

Does trust me involve some sort of explanation?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Does trust me involve some sort of explanation?

It means if you are town have faith in me. I never do the whole "vote to lynch without reasoning" so if you either think its scummy of me or don't agree with voting someone because someone else says trust me then I don't blame you, but we will be missing on a hit.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Actually that would be more my fault for not convincing town to follow the lynch, then anyone for not following me, but oh well. I will take the blame post game if this lynch does not pass.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

oh god I just used then instead of than. Rules should allow edits of this type of embarrassment typos!

[Unknown1234]

I don't disagree with it, but more that I don't understand why YOU want it this badly.

[SuperJack]

@PLZLEAVEDUCKK makes his town play way to obvious compared to his scum play.

I'm also enjoying SPs play and reading them as town.

I did not like @Unknown1234 at the start. A Town player should never try and make themselves harder to read plus that sly vote on Stereo, is unknown going for the LHF, or is he just trying to make sure nobody lurks?

@Mesk514 Is giving me little warning signs. Will have too re-read when I get back.

@Whad I have to admit I've not read yet. Just skimmeed through.

@MattZed seems to be way too defensive over such a small attack.

Uh. Who Else is playing lol...

Oh @Eggy is being very aggresive, very offputting when trying to read him. But then again aggresiveness is a town tell

@purebe I feel like I am floating with what PLD is saying aout him





Also Breadcrumbing is allowed. Also insane bets that don't have to be kept.
I bet everyone £100 that I will not drink tea today.

[SuperJack]

I want to see MZ's defence in how he is being too defensive.

-vote MattZed

I'm also sheeping

[SuperJack]

SuperJack below:

Spoiler : SuperJack :

Also... Host I am unhappy with this picture as my rear-end is cold as fuck.

[SuperJack]

Wait... what the fuck how does that chair even work at all. It has like a basket under it and only 2 chair legs 0-o

[SuperJack]

Same with the table...

[Unknown1234]

It's connected to the desk.

Also, it was only the first few posts where I was being weird, but I was more mocking how people see me opposed to being difficult to read.

Other than that, any new updates on me?

[Unknown1234]

Sorry I'm in between and during classes so I usually just poke at little things. Purebe is also unecessarily being lurkish too

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Town:
Duck
Superjack
Whad
Mesk
Unknown
Secondpassing

Null:
Purebe
Eggy

Scum:
Mattzed

I honestly think as long as the cop and n0 check are not within mz/eggy/pure town has auto. If I am wrong on anyone in my town circle it is mesk and then possibly unknown.

I think town was just too towny this game, and scum wasn't able to cause enough chaos/make townies look bad.


If I am correct it is 3 town voting on mattzed, mattzed scum is voting on a town, and eggy scum is voting a town.

[Eggy]

You are still arguing that Suntax, in a mere two sentences, made a post so clearly damning that he must be scum and should be lynched at once. Your argument is simultaneously bad and opportunistic. Really, it's only now that you noticed an alleged scumslip? That's not evaluating a slot; that's looking at who you want to make a case against and simply figuring out how you could make it.

I don't trust you, and I'm not going to continue playing this game of defending an introductory post I didn't make that you and Unknown have unreasonably tunneled into. I've already stated that we should lynch Unknown, and I've already stated why.

There is no way in hell you two are both town.

mattzed is town im wiiling to see unknown hang

-vote unknown1234

ur lucky duck ill b back for you soon

[Eggy]

I don't like your reason either.
You didn't bother to wonder why I omgus'd.
And you're probably not going to even go back and look.

obv scum not liking my reasoning how dare you

[Eggy]

There. Pretty colors. Now @Eggy HAS to read it.

yay I do love colors 😊

[Eggy]

Notice me Tama-kun (Eggy)

okay secondpassing is now in my no lynch pile as while. Its duck and unknown im looking to lynch these days

[Eggy]

I don't really see what there is to "agree" with Suntax in his one post. I read it as a fluff post promising activity but not delivering.


I strongly disagree. Suntax is probably the most-replaced player in our site's history. A game he hosted had to be cancelled because he went AWOL. If memory serves, I led the first ever attempted policy lynch on this site, and it was against Suntax for always lurking out of games. The idea that he's more likely to lurk as scum simply isn't true.


Basically everyone reads a lack of a defense as an admission to guilt. I would be doing my fellow town a disservice (by letting them scumread me for not responding) to not explain how poor Unknown's logic was.


Frankly, I'm not really addressing the post anymore. I find the responses of Unknown and Whad to be much more interesting, and it's these that I've been commenting on.

come on guys this is so obviously town mattzeds arguments are flawless

[Eggy]

"Town Unity"? How do you know that Whad or any of their alleged townreads are in fact town? Whad is claiming that my slot is PoE'd into being scum, (although interestingly, they don't bring up this line of argument in summary post #245) which means they're confident enough to make 6 townreads, which is absolutely crazy at this stage in the game.

Unknown and Whad are my top two scumreads. Although now that you bring it up, the scummier of the two is becoming Whad for me. I would be incredibly surprised if they were both town. (and also if both scum, because spending both scum going after me this hard, knowing I'd flip town if they actually succeeded, is a far riskier move than they would need to make) Between the two, Whad really feels like the scum trying to buddy a town. He (she?) tries to explain Unknown's reasoning from a somewhat detached position, merely discussing what the argument is and not so much taking a position on it. Perhaps you need to be in my shoes of being pressured by these two to see it, but I very much get the feeling of Whad trying to buddy Unknown.

But it is more than that. The reasoning just looks fake. Doesn't bring up the PoE point since I questioned, doesn't notice an alleged scumslip until long after the fact, and doesn't adjust the "strategic lurker" read to account for the fact that Suntax actually got replaced out. It doesn't add up to a town trying to sincerely read my slot. He's not using his vote to pressure me into providing more information. He's pushing my lynch based off of Suntax's one post and won't hear anything to the contrary.

-vote Whad

vote unknown with me buddy boy

[Eggy]

Also, Mesk and Eggy have completely snuck out of the game recently. Not enjoying that.

awww you put my post in ur little under box thing

-vote unvote

[Eggy]

Town:
Duck
Superjack
Whad
Mesk
Unknown
Secondpassing

Null:
Purebe
Eggy

Scum:
Mattzed

I honestly think as long as the cop and n0 check are not within mz/eggy/pure town has auto. If I am wrong on anyone in my town circle it is mesk and then possibly unknown.

I think town was just too towny this game, and scum wasn't able to cause enough chaos/make townies look bad.


If I am correct it is 3 town voting on mattzed, mattzed scum is voting on a town, and eggy scum is voting a town.

then vote me kiddo if your correct im scum. why not vote me?

[Eggy]

awww you put my post in ur little under box thing

-vote unvote

this game is getting easier I already have like 3 confirmed towns. Unknown, secondpassing and whad. Mechanically solved pretty soon guys keep it up.

[Eggy]

-vote superjack

[MattZed]

Matt if your excuse for only considering/voting people accusing you is because you "caught scum" then I'm not impressed.

You literally have done NOTHING. I doubt you've read anything else I've said outside this argument because that seems to be the only thing you care about. You have done nothing else to make me believe you are Town, and yes I do find your play to be scummy right now. You are trying to take either of us down, and making it pretty clear that neither of us can be scum.

It's not a misrepresentation and it's actually really annoying to hear you say that because you really haven't done anything,

I already said why Rusty isn't something a town player would say. There is NO way you can be rusty at playing town.

Also, it doesn't matter when Whad picked up a slip really, it's still something to be considered.

The things I'm adding to the list of "what we need to talk about if you flip town"...

Yes, you are misrepping me, and you're misrepping me HARD right now. If you're town, take an honest moment to reflect on what I'm telling without getting defensive and thinking "what no I'm not misrepping you stop trying to discredit me." You said I have done literally nothing, and this is plainly untrue. The fact that you disagree with me doesn't mean that I haven't made 20 posts of substantial arguments.

As for rustiness, no, you just asserted it. I've already told you why town can be rusty.

Also, Mesk and Eggy have completely snuck out of the game recently. Not enjoying that.

This is a point I agree on.

-vote mattzed

Trust me. First and only time I will use the trust me logic.

I want to see MZ's defence in how he is being too defensive.

-vote MattZed

I'm also sheeping

Yep, I'm being voted by sheep. Shame on both of you for not explaining any more.

To answer SJ's question, there is no such thing as too defensive. Town's first goal is to not get mislynched, which I'm actively pursuing. Second goal is to find scum, and third goal is to try to get the rest of town to lynch them. I would be surprised if you can't see how I'm pursuing these goals, and how a healthy level of defensiveness fits into them.

vote unknown with me buddy boy

Whad is my main focus atm as I re-evaluate Unknown. Join on Whad, mate.

[MattZed]

Also, if I were a cop, my N0 peek told me that secondpassing is town.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

-vote eggy

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Personally I thought mesk was the cop with a n0 on secondpassing.

If MZ is not the cop, it is mechanically correct for the cop to hardclaim and take the 1 for 1.

This changes my scum to

pure/eggy with mesk being the third now if I am wrong on either.

I would prefer a lynch on eggy today.

[Eggy]

well atleast your not voting mattzed who is obv town. I cant even blame anyone for voting me I have not been playing as well as I shud be so I apologize but I am town I promise.

[Eggy]

scum is duck and super jack I think now

[secondpassing]

It's connected to the desk.

Also, it was only the first few posts where I was being weird, but I was more mocking how people see me opposed to being difficult to read.

Other than that, any new updates on me?

Why do you want updates on yourself?

[secondpassing]

I think Whad is worth investigating.

Random hitch happened and deleted a reply I'm not going to remake. Something something Unknown associated with Whad.

-vote Whad