PLZLEAVEJACKK

[Calix]

Orpz Edit:
Read Calix's Disclaimer.

This post has jack shit to do with SuperJack as a person. I am merely using his play as a case study to explain everything wrong with god-awful 'play-styles' in games.

All posts that are irrelevant or publicly attack anyone will be nuked. I will open the chat to allow dialogue about the problem, but there are more civil ways we can discuss the problem than publicly shaming players.

---

Given the influx of new players, it is only suitable that we set a good example for how FM games should be played. In this regard, I find @SuperJack 's posts in recent games to be detrimental to this goal.

Bluntly put, regarding SJ's posting in games as a 'play-style' is as laughable as comparing grape juice to finely-aged wine.

But don't take my word for it. He even admits that the 'play-style' he has adopted is destructive.

People don't want to play mafia with you. Because you don't play mafia. I tried to give you another chance this game, but can't you see from people reactions and post comments that they hated the way you played?

Don't use the fact that no one has told you what has happened as an excuse not to get involved. Because you are supposed to read what's happened...This is what frustrates people, that you have the ability to get involved yet you don't

[context: SJ criticising ika's Citizen play after the Town lost Prime Minister 1.0]

ika is well-known for his reputation of active lurking and phoning in games despite being capable of good play, yet nobody bats an eye when SJ starts imitating this behaviour. Why does ika get discredited so much while SJ, a player who is equally destructive to the quality of a game, gets free rein to make the following posts?

I have no reads because I didn't read day 1. Ill get round to it tonight if needed.

I'll afk now. Nothing more to do. And I cba reading day 1.

- Zero interest in playing the game that he signed up for.
- Completely dismissive of the events that took place in Day 1. This being in a game where...
- a) town only had 1 mislynch
- b) a Mafia member counter-claimed his role on Day 1 (something that he missed and which resulted in him being mislynched)
- c) a Bodyguard successfully killed a Mafia player on Night 1 using the chat
- For context, all he did on Day 1 was shit-post gifs and randomly vote players, much like one would do in the mod.

Before anyone responds with "well town can police the game with policy lynches," this attitude restricts the site's ability to pull off smaller games. Return to Normalcy only had one mislynch; it is unfair to the town and messes up the balance of the game if the players have to bend over backwards to rid themselves of a player who has the time to /sign, but no will to play.

To anyone who still considers this a legitimate play-style, allow me to show some posts from Final Fantasy VII, where SJ shit-posted and role-play as 'Jessica' for the entirety of Day 1. None of these were soft-claims...

Spoiler : Quality Posts :

Let's all introduce ourselves.

Hi my name is Jessica. I am 22 1/2 years old.
My favourite sport is badminton, it's like a less intense version of tennis, but instead of playing with balls you play with a cock.

Hi I'm Jessica.

Jessica* please get it right.

I don't like you. Are you sexist?

Hey guys. You like mash potatoes?

Hi. I'm Jessica.

Hey I'm not contributing and people know I'm town.

He only resorts to making legitimate posts once he has an incriminating night result on BananaCucho. This attitude is not something that should be promoted in FM games, given his refusal to join in playing the game on Day 1 was rewarded. Such an attitude only serves to demoralise newer players who may pick up on SJ's disdain for Day 1 and adapt this in an attempt to survive instead of participating.

Coupled with his subpar hosting of the Beginner's Game (where he delayed posting Sino's flip out of laziness, did not answer questions and failed to replace Panda before it guaranteed a town loss), I have to conclude that his behaviour leaves a poor impression on newer players. It is not something that should be tolerated, especially from a supposed 'veteran' player.

Recommendation: Remind all hosts that they can add in a rule against excessive shit-posting/ trolling in games. This would grant hosts the ability to police this behaviour in games if they so wish.

In S-FM Decisions, SJ actually started to play the game once reminded that shit-posting was not a legitimate strategy. I think that making this a more prominent part of the site meta would go a long way in improving player quality, as opposed to relying on lazy tactics such as "lurking/ shit-posting as TPR" to hide their bad and/ or lazy play.

Spoiler : Disclaimer :

This post has jack shit to do with SuperJack as a person. I am merely using his play as a case study to explain everything wrong with god-awful 'play-styles' in games.

[DarknessB]

This is absolutely on point and the FM community should police itself so that we have higher quality games (as well as hosts). There is really no excuse for not reading Day 1 or for deliberately shitposting instead of trying to play the game. If we want better games, we need to start by expecting each other to take FM more seriously. This doesn't mean we can't have fun, but it means we shouldn't just mess around or not participate because it's Day 1. Day 1 sets the tone for the entire game -- please don't write it off, whether you are a newcomer or experienced player.

[Gyrlander]

I think what happens with SuperJack is not that he has to improve, but that he just doesn't care about the games. We have to remind him that we want a good experience in our games. When you sign to a game, you're just not saying "yeah, I'll sign and do whatever I want". No, you're making a compromise with the host and with the players that are going to play with you.

I don't think SJ is a bad guy, he's fantastic! Problem is that he is just a lazy FUCKCKCKCKCK person ♥

[Kovath]

Who gave me -5 rep I'm killing him

I want to thank DB for giving me more points. And I want to make public that I'll be marrying him in 10 years. Thank you.

That escalated quickly =P

On a more serious note, I agree that we should expect, and try to maintain, higher quality in FM games. Also agree on policy lynches. In game results should not be tied together with some of these issues.

Honestly, if you're playing a FM game you should be trying to have fun, and that should include participating in the game. Not participating meaningfully in a game would personally eliminate any fun I could have gotten from it.

And as pointed out, this is not the issue of any one player or reflective of any player's individual character, but I think more indicative of a looser environment where people can often get away with it. Players should have freedom and be able to be flexible with their time and life, but it doesn't hurt to expect a bit more effort.

[Orpz]

Thanks for the report. I'll be home in a few hours to discuss and work on a solution.

In the meantime I want to remind everyone to read the disclaimer. The problem lies with players not meeting the high standards expected of their play, whether from malicious intents or misunderstanding. This thread is not an invitation to personally attack anyone.

[GoatseOntheCupboard]

Hey friends! Just a friendly reminder that personal attacks on members character will not be tolerated, even in circle jerk orange. Tensions may run high in certain intense forum games, but if you have an issue with a certain player please take it up with them privately instead of shaming them in the public forum. I have locked and deleted this thread.

-the mods

Orpz Edit:
Goatse is not a mod. This is a troll post, but the message is valid.

[Kovath]

This thread, despite how it was framed or might appear to be at first sight, was, I believe, not intended to be a personal attack on any player but rather to highlight a problem with playstyle trends that most (I'd say) of us don't agree with. Not to put words in Calix's mouth, but I think she just used a particular example that she was familiar with to make her point. I think we all understand that life happens (which is why this was not meant to be as an indictment of a player's character or person), but that shouldn't stop us from aspiring to maintain a higher standard of play among ourselves.

So, I'd say that's not constructive to focus on specific players because that argument quickly degenerates and misses the point. The main point is to think about how we can work together to keep standards acceptably high for everyone. If individual cases need to be discussed to help further the discussion, so be it, but that's not the overall issue.

[Calix]

This thread, despite how it was framed or might appear to be at first sight, was, I believe, not intended to be a personal attack on any player but rather to highlight a problem with playstyle trends that most (I'd say) of us don't agree with. Not to put words in Calix's mouth, but I think she just used a particular example that she was familiar with to make her point. I think we all understand that life happens (which is why this was not meant to be as an indictment of a player's character or person), but that shouldn't stop us from aspiring to maintain a higher standard of play among ourselves.

So, I'd say that's not constructive to focus on specific players because that argument quickly degenerates and misses the point. The main point is to think about how we can work together to keep standards acceptably high for everyone. If individual cases need to be discussed to help further the discussion, so be it, but that's not the overall issue.

The thread has nothing to do with SuperJack. Yelling at him at the expense of anything more constructive isn't going to fix the site meta of shitposting to avoid attention, lurking as scum/ TPR and other such issues that allow players to take the 'easy way out' as opposed to actually getting better. It is so predictable that it ceases to become a challenge after a while.

Games are small and it is very frustrating to see the same players - many who have been playing for longer than I have - making the same mistakes and never improving because they care more about 'winning' than they do about 'playing'.

The best way I can see for now is to work on the hosts' roles in policing their own games. Many seem to be apathetic and hesitant to take action; something that only perpetuates the sort of behaviour described in my original post.

[Kovath]

The thread has nothing to do with SuperJack. Yelling at him at the expense of anything more constructive isn't going to fix the site meta of shitposting to avoid attention, lurking as scum/ TPR and other such issues that allow players to take the 'easy way out' as opposed to actually getting better. It is so predictable that it ceases to become a challenge after a while.

Games are small and it is very frustrating to see the same players - many who have been playing for longer than I have - making the same mistakes and never improving because they care more about 'winning' than they do about 'playing'.

The best way I can see for now is to work on the hosts' roles in policing their own games. Many seem to be apathetic and hesitant to take action; something that only perpetuates the sort of behaviour described in my original post.

You summed it up better than I, which makes sense since you are the one who wrote the post :P

I would add that there's probably room for players to help police one another, though we have may have to be creative if we want to avoid policy lynches. Perhaps something more to do with shifting general attitudes, I dunno.

[Calix]

You summed it up better than I, which makes sense since you are the one who wrote the post :P

I would add that there's probably room for players to help police one another, though we have may have to be creative if we want to avoid policy lynches. Perhaps something more to do with shifting general attitudes, I dunno.

Since everyone loves insane mechanics, maybe we should implement a mechanic that can role-block all players who do not post an adequate number of times during the day, subject to the host's discretion. This avoids TPRs lurking and if the post count limit is vague, then it prevents players from going "post 1, 2, 3, 4, bye!" and disappearing.

This may or may not be a serious suggestion ;)

As for the shit-posting part, a catch-all rule should allow hosts enough flexibility to police that in their games.

[Sino]

Since everyone loves insane mechanics, maybe we should implement a mechanic that can role-block all players who do not post an adequate number of times during the day, subject to the host's discretion. This avoids TPRs lurking and if the post count limit is vague, then it prevents players from going "post 1, 2, 3, 4, bye!" and disappearing.

This may or may not be a serious suggestion ;)

As for the shit-posting part, a catch-all rule should allow hosts enough flexibility to police that in their games.

Something i feel could be changed is that specific rule of the 5 posts a day, why wouldn't we simply make it 5 related to the game posts ?

As you just pointed out, it's easy for a lurker to shitpost his way out of this rule at the moment.

[Orpz]

Daily reminder for everyone to be civil. We are approaching a point where discussion is getting too personal.

[Calix]

Well her attacking me had nothing to do with the forum game. She is nowhere near the skill to separate person feelings from in game reads. I don't mind being personally attacked, I am upset at her atrocious play that did nothing to aid the town.

IMO Hosts should up the required amount of "content posts". If they don't post very often modkill/replace them. Obviously the host would use discretion and not replace someone who was extremely active and then had something to do on a different day, but prevent people who consistently are worthless.

It's important to keep in mind that it'll vary from game to game. For example, I do not feel that "5 posts per day" is adequate in a 13-player game. The number should be closer to 20 in my opinion, but like I said, this will depend on the host and the type of game they are looking for.

Having a hard-and-fast number is ineffective because of the issues that Sino raised AND because it puts undue pressure on typically-active players who may be busy on a particular day.

A catch-all allows the host to punish shit-posting AND lets them make exemptions when they feel it's necessary to do so.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

It's important to keep in mind that it'll vary from game to game. For example, I do not feel that "5 posts per day" is adequate in a 13-player game. The number should be closer to 20 in my opinion, but like I said, this will depend on the host and the type of game they are looking for.

Having a hard-and-fast number is ineffective because of the issues that Sino raised AND because it puts undue pressure on typically-active players who may be busy on a particular day.

A catch-all allows the host to punish shit-posting AND lets them make exemptions when they feel it's necessary to do so.

That is what I was trying to get at. Require much more posting, but be flexible based on circumstances and player history. Like in my last game I had probably over 150 posts on day1, but only like 10 on day2. The host would obviously weigh that into their consideration and would be content with my play even if there was a 20 post minimum or whatever.

Posts that are pictures of fans would not count as a "content" post.

[Calix]

by the way my shit posting gets me all the way to the end, i'm there when i'm needed. Last time i checked you died day 1 for saying too much.

xoxo

This is exactly what we shouldn't be encouraging. Selfish, survival-orientated play is not good play.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

This is exactly what we shouldn't be encouraging. Selfish, survival-orientated play is not good play.

This. You getting to the end of the game is not strong town play. Throughout the game players are trying to develop reads on others, and by posting nothing but fan pictures no one is able to get information off you in any way.

Mesk criticizing someone for being lynched after saying too much is kind of lol. The flip from the mislynch provides the town a wealth of information BECAUSE of all of the information given by that player. If mesk was lynched day1 we go into the night phase with nothing but almost no information but vote logic that holds no weight.

A lot of people criticize one of my styles where I fake claim sheriff as town to either push a lynch I feel strong about, or to get information. It works great for me, but the fact is it is a detriment to the rest of town and hurts in their ability to solve the game. It is no benefit to town if I solve the game, but cant convince the others.

Morale of the story, if you are going to sign up play the fucking game. Events and other commitments happen, but if you are able to, put effort into the game.

[Helz]

Theres 2 reasons to play mafia
-to have fun
-to win

'Good play' is a balance between the two. I have seen players ruin their own or others experiences in an effort to win just as I have seen players not try enough to win ruining their teams chances. Just to be clear this is how I see the format used across all sites.

Hosts present a game with rules
Players that are interested sign up
A game follows

Nowhere in that simple process are players required to sign up. If you do not care for a specific players play style just do not play in games with them. If you do not think a specific host does a good job of creating a pleasurable experience then don't play their games. Sign up for games that you believe you will have a good experience in and enjoy the experience while being courteous to other players. Do that and your only issues will be in the big games which our community can't handle. There is no need to call out Ika or Superjack or even the hosts over and over.

[Firebringer]

No one hates SuperJack.
Its just a game.

No one hates Ika, players who take the game seriously dislike it when players coast or don't take it serious.
Thats all it is.

I like SuperJack, but I will admit his behavior in recent games were bringing them down.
He has realized this though, and when he is ready or if he wants to play again, next time he signs up he will put forward effort I assume.

[Orpz]

CRASHING THIS THREAD -- WITH NO SURVIVORS!

I added a mod edit to the original post. Please read it. What should have been a civil discussion about improving the standard of games quickly got out of control with players publicly shaming each other. This does not help anyone improve, nor does it improve relations between players.

I deleted a lot of posts that were blatant public shaming or irrelevant to the discussion. There are good ways to discuss our problem without having to resort to these tactics. This is what I'm trying to promote here; not a hugbox but an honest dialogue grounded in mutual respect.

[DarknessB]

No one hates SuperJack.
Its just a game.

No one hates Ika, players who take the game seriously dislike it when players coast or don't take it serious.
Thats all it is.

I like SuperJack, but I will admit his behavior in recent games were bringing them down.
He has realized this though, and when he is ready or if he wants to play again, next time he signs up he will put forward effort I assume.

Signing for a game is essentially a social contract to the other players that you will play the game and try your best. I agree that hosts need to be more active in policing their games and addressing inactive or spammy players. However, given the relatively small player base here, I also think there is a role in self-policing because we just don't have numbers to replace the same people out every game. That doesn't have to be a negative, attack-type thing, but more trying to convince each other that playing to the best of our abilities makes games better for all of us.

Also, everyone understands that real life stuff comes up on occasion, which is the purpose of replacing out and replacements. We need hosts to be active in this area as well, since players in a game shouldn't really be lobbying for inactives to be replaced given what that might indicate about alignment. Really, this entire argument is all about being respectful to your fellow players so we can play the best games possible here.

[BananaCucho]

I've been censored