S-FM 210: Give or Take

[DarknessB]

does no one notice that vigi has only 2 shots? perhaps they decided not to kill

Good point -- that's the fourth possibility then:

1) Vigi and Mafia targeted the same person.
2) Vigi or Mafia was Jailed and could not shoot.
3) Vigi or Mafia shot Jailed person (i.e. didn't work).
4) Vigi didn't shoot at all.

I suppose Mafia could have held back on shooting, but I haven't seen that play since Sen in Mafia Wars 1.0 -- i.e. wouldn't make much sense.

[Titus]

I wasn't familiar that this is an MS setup. What do you mean exactly by "setup knowledge"?

The depth of setup planning takes part in the kill choice. This setup has an achillies heel to it for both sides. If I highlight it, that coaches scum but it is relevant if we do nka.

This is Tit for Tat on mafia scum.

[Titus]

Of course, if no one is aware of the weakness but me, it has zero nka relevance.

[Mesk514]

seeing as there are 2 uses, I'm inclined to believe Vigilante held back. I think that's just a normal conclusion to come too.
Not saying that there is no other explanation but this one makes the most sense

[Mesk514]

Can we address the fact that Never Unlucky was not scum. pffft LOL

[Gingerape]

-yawns-
Yea vig only has 2 shots. Why would he even shoot first day. Too high risk of shooting a town. -shrugs-
Night progressed as expected~

[Titus]

Can we address the fact that Never Unlucky was not scum. pffft LOL

What's there to address? NU was a scummy plays and a hint of policy. People felt I was personally offended rather than annoyed despite my efforts to wind down. The explosive players sometimes have to leave. Do I like that? No. Yet, he knew I was town and pushed me anyway. That shit ain't cool.

[DarknessB]

Can we address the fact that Never Unlucky was not scum. pffft LOL

Yeah, there's no point in dwelling on it, but I would have hoped he would have moved his arguments past "I'm not scum" and taking some shots at Titus -- I felt like he really hurt his case with very short responses to people pushing him like Titus and me. We really just weren't that organized and focused on scumhunting yesterday and the result showed.

[DarknessB]

What's there to address? NU was a scummy plays and a hint of policy. People felt I was personally offended rather than annoyed despite my efforts to wind down. The explosive players sometimes have to leave. Do I like that? No. Yet, he knew I was town and pushed me anyway. That shit ain't cool.

How did he know you were Town? Possible I missed him saying that.

[Titus]

-yawns-
Yea vig only has 2 shots. Why would he even shoot first day. Too high risk of shooting a town. -shrugs-
Night progressed as expected~

I don't like the vig would do this comments. It only helps scum narrow down the vig.

Talk to me about your mini read?

[Titus]

How did he know you were Town? Possible I missed him saying that.

The word choice in his insults. You don't run around calling your scumreads dumb. By insulting my play as dub rather than scummy, it indicates a townread. No one calls their scumreadthe townbeard.

[Mesk514]

The word choice in his insults. You don't run around calling your scumreads dumb. By insulting my play as dub rather than scummy, it indicates a townread. No one calls their scumreadthe townbeard.

tbh, i do it all the time

[Gingerape]

I don't like the vig would do this comments. It only helps scum narrow down the vig.

Talk to me about your mini read?

sorry~
Any normal player who is playing for town would not shoot this night.
Since your opinion differs from that then maybe you should rethink your views or pretend to be more town.
You scum~
^~^

I dont like how he reacts to being pressed. It's too emotional. Maybe he's just that kinda guy, but I feel like when questioned he got overly-defensive.

[MiniZed]

-rolls over into the chatroom-
Why would Minized kill his older brother?

Considering you are refusing to explain your scum-read on me, and that's the ONLY thing you have said this game that can be taken as an opinion of yours, you are actually starting to piss me off.

Sorry, caught in a thunderstorm so it's been slow connection for a while.

[yzb25]

WHAT?! Mattzed was town?!

Guess I have a lot to learn about reading people, heheh. =3

[Gingerape]

you're being emotional again ;~;

[MiniZed]

yzb also hammered NU despite being opposed to his lynch -- otherwise, NU would have been no lynched. Almost came off to me like he wanted the lynch, but didn't want to be held responsible for it, especially given his sudden reference to being convinced by me. I'll be honest, I don't like it.

-vote yzb25

This feels oppourtunistic to me. Given that you were the one who was pushing for a lynch as strongly as I was opposed to a no-lynch, then you tell them that it's scummy for them to have done it even when you were encouraging it?

[MiniZed]

you're being emotional again ;~;

If that's the reason you are scum-reading me, because of my emotion, you won't like the end result.

[DarknessB]

WHAT?! Mattzed was town?!

Guess I have a lot to learn about reading people, heheh. =3

I asked this earlier as well -- given MZ was acting somewhat questionable, a number of people had scumread him, and he had a decent size train going yesterday, why would he be targeted is the question.

[Gingerape]

Fine. I've re-evaluated ^^;
I conclude Minized is town so I don't hurt his feelings <3

I'll have to read up and rethink my reads.

[DarknessB]

This feels oppourtunistic to me. Given that you were the one who was pushing for a lynch as strongly as I was opposed to a no-lynch, then you tell them that it's scummy for them to have done it even when you were encouraging it?

The scummy part is the sudden flip-flop on account of "Darkness convinced me". When did I do that exactly? Yzb was adamantly saying he woudn't vote for NU, and suddenly, when he was faced with a no lynch, he flips his vote onto him. Also, did you read the 4-5 other reasons I have a questionable read on him?

1. Sudden change of vote without explanation.
2. Overuse of IIOA (summaries)
3. Overuse of general Mafia strategy (policy lynch debate)
4. MZ (Town) scumread him, as the one noteable read he emphasized.
5. Was being a bit too friendly to me during d1 (new reason)

[MiniZed]

Fine. I've re-evaluated ^^;
I conclude Minized is town so I don't hurt his feelings <3

I'll have to read up and rethink my reads.

Please don't start this "I don't want to hurt his feelings so I'll town-read him". It looks more like you are trying to avoid people against you.

Instead of doing what you just did, I would like to see a case of how I'm town/scum to you. Anything works better then nothing.

Just to be clear, I'm emotional in every game though, so it makes me more frustrated to see people using this as a scum-read.

[DarknessB]

Fine. I've re-evaluated ^^;
I conclude Minized is town so I don't hurt his feelings <3

I'll have to read up and rethink my reads.

I hope this is sarcasm. To be fair, emotional play is NAI for MiniZed / Unknown -- the tough part is reading beyond it. He's had games where he freaked out scum style but ended up being Town (Island Conflict, Black Flag Nightless) and games where he was similarly emotional, but ended up being scum (the M-FM). Makes it hard to read him objectively.

[yzb25]

Add to that, his seeming overemphasis on IIOA type content -- i.e. all of those summaries toward the end of Day 1 as opposed to reads on people or pushes. There's a lot that's coming up scummy in my eyes right now.

Did you read everything on d1 when you posted these posts?

[DarknessB]

Did you read everything on d1 when you posted these posts?

I understand your explanation of why you posted them -- doesn't mean if I have to find it satisfactory. They were still informational as opposed to opinion posts, which were very odd to be laying down right at EOD where if you thought NU was innocent, another lynch could have been pushed.

[Mesk514]

theres 10 of us left
7 are town

there's no one in this game so far that has striked me as solid town

on that note, i really thought MattZed was a potential scum but he wasn't so for that I'm kinda baffled to say the least

honestly right now I think MiniZed and Banana are scum

Banana's role claim seemed more like a ploy to draw out reaction

MiniZed seemed to be defending Banana

quotes to come

must read some more stuff

[yzb25]

(Addressed to DarknessB)

I can see where Minized is coming from when he calls this opportunistic - Darkness is using the the scum-kill to complement his scumread, as if he's oblivious to the fact the scums are the ones who control the scum-kill, and it's in their direct interests to use the kill to worsen our scumreads.

^If you're not going to put at least as much thought into the night-kill as the scums, you have no chance of correctly reading the scumkill . Killing one town in a tvt to make the other look town look bad is not a pie-in-the-sky conspiracy theory.

Darkness also has to see how susp-looking it is to use the PL-strat-thing as an excuse now, when he was the one who originally gave a compelling argument for why it was NAI from me.

We're very early in the game, but the yzb votes feel like what happened to SP last game. I.e. yzb and SP are the types of players who obsess with Mafia strategy / philosophy over you know, actually playing the game and scumhunting. They also tend to be "space cases" in some instances -- the nicer interpretation being, they act oddly (even in scummy ways) when rolling Town. Yes, I know this is a meta argument.

This is a long way of saying that I find yzb's push toward PLs and SP's push toward "everyone jump onto a train immediately" to be more quirky than genuinely scummy. At the very least, voting either of them this early is both easy and perhaps lazy IMO.

Guess you need an easy lynch lol.

Rather than bother to consider what the fuck went on yesterday and how he ended up spearheading a catastrophic mislynch that ate into half our discussion time, he's propelled right into shallow night-kill analysis, resurrected outdated arguments and launched a vote on the one player who spent posts and posts trying to placate the NU VS. BC + Titus, because it's "suspicious he came to agree that lynching NU was better for the town so suddenly".

Sorry I did not give enough posts showing my gradual persuasion by your arguments. I thought we'd all see it was obvious that, though I had tried my damned hardest to dismantle the NU train, I'd eventually accept that letting it run into d2 would corrupt and distract us for another day, and that I had come to agree with the arguments Mini, Matt and DB had given in favor of finishing the lynch off. I'm not a sheep - I could have easily picked an easier train than Mattzed - NU for example - so to suggest I lazily leaned on you is ridiculous.

"Just because I heard your explanations, doesn't mean I agree with them."

Right, that's called having an opinion, and that's why you give counter arguments to my explanations. That's called backing up your opinion. You don't just say "yeah I saw your counter explanations, but keeping these outdated arguments is convenient for me right now", you have to give new arguments that say something like:

"well yeah you gave a completely reasonable explanation for why your day summary came when it did, but I think everything you say at EOD should be an opinion, even if it's physically impossible to muster enough votes to get your scumread (Mattzed) lynched, because even if you've posted more opinions in the last 24 hours than nearly anyone else, every fact you give counts as at least -3 opinions".

I asked DB if he was up-to-date to make sure he wasn't simply uninformed. I wonder if the dentist loaded his brain with drugs.

[yzb25]

Anyway

-rolls over into the chatroom-
Why would Minized kill his older brother?

Are you now caught up? We need to question you so you're not policy lynched for having shit taste in 2d girls.

[DarknessB]

Response below:

(Addressed to DarknessB)

I can see where Minized is coming from when he calls this opportunistic - Darkness is using the the scum-kill to complement his scumread, as if he's oblivious to the fact the scums are the ones who control the scum-kill, and it's in their direct interests to use the kill to worsen our scumreads.

I'm shocked that you agree with the player pushing back against the person scumreading you -- really, no kidding! Scum are just as motivated to get rid of those who suspect them, especially when that player wasn't particularly active / vocal and had promised to be more so today.

^If you're not going to put at least as much thought into the night-kill as the scums, you have no chance of correctly reading the scumkill . Killing one town in a tvt to make the other look town look bad is not a pie-in-the-sky conspiracy theory.

Yes, it's possible they did that. Doesn't explain the rest of your d1 behavior though -- excessive policy lynch analysis, IIOA in lieu of opinions at EOD, suddenly changing your vote to lynch NU at EOD and saying that I convinced you when there was no progression to suggest that.

Darkness also has to see how susp-looking it is to use the PL-strat-thing as an excuse now, when he was the one who originally gave a compelling argument for why it was NAI from me.

Reads evolve and you take additional happenings in the game into account, such as your YOLO lynch of your supposed Townread, NU. When you get more data (i.e. NU's flip), you should go back and review what's happened in the game from that vantage point.

Guess you need an easy lynch lol.

Ok?

Rather than bother to consider what the fuck went on yesterday and how he ended up spearheading a catastrophic mislynch that ate into half our discussion time, he's propelled right into shallow night-kill analysis, resurrected outdated arguments and launched a vote on the one player who spent posts and posts trying to placate the NU VS. BC + Titus, because it's "suspicious he came to agree that lynching NU was better for the town so suddenly".

We're early in Day 2. I've given a theory as to what I think is going on -- you're free to posit your own. You literally have one vote on you and you're jumping into the OMFG I'M GETTING LYNCHED level defense. If anything, you're the one who is writing a giant tome to discredit all of my play right now instead of defending your own. That's a classic scumplay -- not focused on your own play, but trying to discredit your accuser. You're also giving yourself a lot of credit as the "one player" who didn't agree with the lynch. How about SP or Mesk for that matter?

Sorry I did not give enough posts showing my gradual persuasion by your arguments. I thought we'd all see it was obvious that, though I had tried my damned hardest to dismantle the NU train, I'd eventually accept that letting it run into d2 would corrupt and distract us for another day, and that I had come to agree with the arguments Mini, Matt and DB had given in favor of finishing the lynch off. I'm not a sheep - I could have easily picked an easier train than Mattzed - NU for example - so to suggest I lazily leaned on you is ridiculous.

Yeah, you were too busy posting summaries for the two AFK players -- that's exactly my point. You didn't share your thoughts, perhaps because you were afraid of slipping or saying something that you didn't intend. It's very easy and safe to post summaries that I doubt Banana and Ginger are even going to read. Funny how you didn't point out this view (that NU needed to be lynched) until 5 minutes before EOD. Before that, you were almost hoping that some lurker like Eggy would come and hammer NU -- you directly said that yourself.

"Just because I heard your explanations, doesn't mean I agree with them."

Right, that's called having an opinion, and that's why you give counter arguments to my explanations. That's called backing up your opinion. You don't just say "yeah I saw your counter explanations, but keeping these outdated arguments is convenient for me right now", you have to give new arguments that say something like:

"well yeah you gave a completely reasonable explanation for why your day summary came when it did, but I think everything you say at EOD should be an opinion, even if it's physically impossible to muster enough votes to get your scumread (Mattzed) lynched, because even if you've posted more opinions in the last 24 hours than nearly anyone else, every fact you give counts as at least -3 opinions".

Basically you're suggesting that instead of trying to muster another lynch, you should just sheep the leading vote on your Townread, no less. Why is that exactly? You literally burned the entire EOD posting summaries as well when the option of another lynch could have been raised. As much as I didn't like SP's EOD, at least he owned his view of no-lynch because he Townread NU. You flip-flopped without explanation.

I asked DB if he was up-to-date to make sure he wasn't simply uninformed. I wonder if the dentist loaded his brain with drugs.

Maybe you should focus on justifying your scummy play instead of trying to discredit me and sheeping onto MiniZed's opportunistic meme. You're the one who is saying we need to think about what happened last night. Go ahead and explain it -- I gave my explanation. Your turn.

[DarknessB]

Anyway



Are you now caught up? We need to question you so you're not policy lynched for having shit taste in 2d girls.

What is it with you and the policy lynch mentions? We have a ton of stuff to parse today (night kill, VCA, etc.) and you keep making reference to them. Policy lynches are basically a Day 1 thing at best, and even then, they're pretty rare.

You can also ask him questions as opposed to waiting until he's ready and he can answer them whenever he's caught up. The benefit of a message board is that it doesn't need to be realtime.

[Eggy]

-vote yzb25

there is no way in hell this man is not scum

[Eggy]

Ive read everything and initially I dismissed my vote on him because I thought his weird logic cud be his meta but his hammer of NU proves to me without a doubt he is scum

[Eggy]

He did EXACTLY what I did in IC as scum strong town read someone he knew was town and who had the biggest train on them and then wait until the last few monutes to hammer them all the while saying its not my fault I was saying he was town I didnt want there to be a no lynch

[Eggy]

Under no circustance does a town member lynch someone they think is town. Thats why his first posts pinged me as scummy because he tried to suggest a policy lynch on me when based off one game I played when I actually flipped town so as far as he knew he would be condemning an actual town to death again instead of scum hunting.

[Eggy]

This man needs to be lynched

[Eggy]

I will be back later tnight and will be more active sorry for being inactive most of the game I was busy and still am but will b way less busy as of now. I have to go but expect me to push this lynch a lot harder later.

[Eggy]

I think the vigi might have shot mattzed but idk

[Eggy]

-vote Never Unlucky

Dear Never Unlucky,

Sorry, but DB has convinced me. Even if you are likely town, we need to move this game forward.

I hope you treat this as a useful learning experience rather than act like a whiny little bitch - never underestimate the reasons people are lynching you. Even something as simple as "he's a prick" can compel the entire town to burn your ass.

Anyway, apologize to Titus after you die, you asshole. She clearly got upset about what you said, yet you continued to call her dumb. Don't give me some bullshit about "not being a tibetian monk". Your messages are filtered by a fucking monitor - it's so easy to control your temper when conversing in a forum. If you're mad, just leave the fucking computer and write your message later.

Yes it matters. You hurt the life and experience of another human being just because you told yourself you couldn't help it. Grow a pair.

No hard feelings. Just saying it how it is man. Stay strong, and have a nice day =)

He seems quite concinved that NU was town like he knew he would flip town even though he expressed the fact NU was town he never really explained why to me this seems like he townread NU because he knew he would flip town and he thought he could hammer him without taking any blame

[BananaCucho]

lel, NU got fucked up

What did I tell you? The fab 5 are targeted, if we would have lynched MZ then one of the others of us would have been dead too. Then its bye bye banana 🍌

Anyhoo, urinalface is getting votes already. Given that MZ was pushing against him, that's exactly what scum wants probably. Putting toiletboy in the "no" category for today

[Eggy]

Happy birthday! Mesk let you a note.

What note did she leave me btw? I cudnt find it thnks tho

[BananaCucho]

I think the vigi might have shot mattzed but idk

Naw, you're framing yzb

-vote Eggy

[Eggy]

lel, NU got fucked up

What did I tell you? The fab 5 are targeted, if we would have lynched MZ then one of the others of us would have been dead too. Then its bye bye banana 🍌

Anyhoo, urinalface is getting votes already. Given that MZ was pushing against him, that's exactly what scum wants probably. Putting toiletboy in the "no" category for today

Pretty sure u and him are scum team id put 10$ on tht bet

[BananaCucho]

Poor Eggy, lynched on his birthday 🎂

[Eggy]

Naw, you're framing yzb

-vote Eggy

Loool look this defense of YZ lol amazing

[BananaCucho]

Pretty sure u and him are scum team id put 10$ on tht bet

K.

[Eggy]

Poor Eggy, lynched on his birthday 🎂

Im not getting lynched lol everyones gnna see what your doing idk why the fuck you wud b so obvious u were already being pretty heavily scum read

[BananaCucho]

Loool look this defense of YZ lol amazing

Yeah the scum team is me, Titus, and yzb, didn't you get the memo

[BananaCucho]

Im not getting lynched lol everyones gnna see what your doing idk why the fuck you wud b so obvious u were already being pretty heavily scum read

K.

[Eggy]

How am I "framing yz" lol you have not given any defense of him other than its what scum wants us to do. Like damn you cant be town and ignore his scummy ass behavior the entire game lol

[Eggy]

Yeah the scum team is me, Titus, and yzb, didn't you get the memo

This is actually quite possible lol, not so sure about titus tho lol. If thats turns out to be the scum team I hope you get banned for game throwing