S-FM 210: Give or Take

[Calix]

Hey my play was pretty good though. It was so transparently obvious that I was hard town read for it lol

It wasn't a terrible gambit. Titus genuinely believed that you were the Vigilante and if it hadn't been for the Sleuth, you probably would have died.

[Mesk514]

[insert obligatory "comparing yourself to someone 'worse' than you is a terrible way to help you improve" post here]

I know you're not going to learn anything from this and will continue to play the same way regardless, so I'll just leave it here.

I'm sorry Calix,

Spoiler : it's just :

i apologize

[Never Unlucky]

First off, I'd like to brag to the scum for falling for my fake Jailkeeper softing and killing me N1 instead of an actual TPR. =P

Care to quote it? I've missed it. :c

Never Unlucky's mislynch was a lynch for the sake of lynching due to town's apathy in finding the scum. secondpassing's mislynch was due to the town willfully ignoring Titus. (only secondpassing analysed her in any depth) yzb's was based on the maligned 'scum slip' as town tried their best to find the 'game-breaking' strategy that meant they wouldn't have to resort to actually reading players.

On that note, analyzing previous lynches via VCA/reads is something town should've been doing. Taking my ML train as an example, doing VCA/VA would've given town vital information as to who composed the scumteam. There were 3 scums involved in my ML, and I feel like an analysis of the votes on my train were enough to single out at least 2 of the scums (Titus who had been shade-throwing me and GF who had sheeped DB on ideas he couldn't agree on). A similar thing could be said about SP's ML in which Titus had stated that she was certain that Eggy vs SP was SvS which nobody agreed with, yet no one bothered pointing out how scummy, opportunistic and dodgy this was.

As for reads, nobody bothered discussing my town and scumreads and others' reads on me after my death. It got me salty because I had solved the game day 1, though I failed (big time) to persuade the other more vocal town members of my reads.

Same for MattZed and SP. Their opinions disappeared with their soul. (Mesk did quote one of MZ's reads list, but it was his 'joke' reads list.)

Neither of these two scum-hunting methods were used: it's like day 1 had never happened.

[Eggy]

While, yes, his play was off the charts bad, he isn't the sole reason why town lost, as Calix has mentioned. You have your part of responsibility to take -- take it if you ever want to improve. In the 170 posts you've made, <10 posts were non-fluff posts that had some sort of value for town to work with. You played very reactively, which is a scumtell unlike what Titus'll say, and didn't EVEN TRY to READ any of the players. All of your scum-team scenario were based on mechanics/PoE rather than reads/tells/intents/etc. In that sense, you got SP MLed because he was 110% to you scum since you, Titus and BC were the cit takers. Zero scum-hunting in your play. Moreover, you lurked from end of D1 to D3 which of course did not help the town.

You're one of the most experienced players in here in terms of GP (sad to say), yet your play NEVER IMPROVES from one game to another. If anything, it gets worse.

Take your part of responsibility. You played like shit too.

Yea tru not my best play just was really frustrated because people were scum reading me when I was town which never happened to me before. I thought MZ was scum from my reads but YZs claim at the end was just so mind bogglingly retarded I really couldnt understand how a town could of done something like that... like jesus I understand why people call him a space case. Also how do you keep getting mislynched all the time? What about ur play makes people scum read you? Its strange how often it happens.

[BananaCucho]

There was a day 1?

[BananaCucho]

Yea tru not my best play just was really frustrated because people were scum reading me when I was town which never happened to me before. I thought MZ was scum from my reads but YZs claim at the end was just so mind bogglingly retarded I really couldnt understand how a town could of done something like that... like jesus I understand why people call him a space case. Also how do you keep getting mislynched all the time? What about ur play makes people scum read you? Its strange how often it happens.

I literally lynched NU for being a royal prick

[Unknown1234]

Yea tru not my best play just was really frustrated because people were scum reading me when I was town which never happened to me before. I thought MZ was scum from my reads but YZs claim at the end was just so mind bogglingly retarded I really couldnt understand how a town could of done something like that... like jesus I understand why people call him a space case. Also how do you keep getting mislynched all the time? What about ur play makes people scum read you? Its strange how often it happens.

You made reads on me? All I saw was "MiniZed is always scum to me" which felt like the basis of the argument.

[Eggy]

Maybe im being a bit of a dick but ive literally never seen someone be so stupid as to claim what YZ claimed at the end of the game.... we were literally discussing how it was 100% in towns best interest for the jailkeeper to claim and that the scum knew who he was by process of elimination so it would benefit town a lot to know and he agreed with it and then he in the middle of this conversation claimed citizen and let Minized claim his role and then he just gave up and AFKd literally the single worst play ive ever seen in anyone of my games ever I am s angry its crazy... I really need him to come and explain his motoves for doing something so fucking retarded or I will never be able to get peace of mind

[DarknessB]

One of the issues that the Town had was the erratic playstyles of SP and Yzb, who were two of the more active Town members. Guys, I understand you approach scumhunting and scumreading differently than most players, but one of the three elements of being effective Town is persuasion. You have to put yourselves in the shoes of the players that you're trying to persuade. Comments like "he can't be scum because only Town are funny" and lying to the Town about your role to try to get the scum to fakeclaim -- they're just not high percentage plays at all.

I recognize this isn't going to change overnight and even if there is improvement, it probably won't change entirely (i.e. we all have our base tendencies), but constantly being mislynched should be an indication that what you're doing now simply isn't working too well and you need to modify your approach to be a bit more standard. Offering a unique perspective, but it needs to be in ways that are approachable to other players.

[Unknown1234]

Maybe im being a bit of a dick but ive literally never seen someone be so stupid as to claim what YZ claimed at the end of the game.... we were literally discussing how it was 100% in towns best interest for the jailkeeper to claim and that the scum knew who he was by process of elimination so it would benefit town a lot to know and he agreed with it and then he in the middle of this conversation claimed citizen and let Minized claim his role and then he just gave up and AFKd literally the single worst play ive ever seen in anyone of my games ever I am s angry its crazy... I really need him to come and explain his motoves for doing something so fucking retarded or I will never be able to get peace of mind

The only thing I can say within reason is that he probably didn't expect the day to end in 5 hours, and was trying to bait a Jailkeeper claim (I saw it coming)

[Eggy]

You made reads on me? All I saw was "MiniZed is always scum to me" which felt like the basis of the argument.

True lol didnt even bother reading you I just gut read u as scum (which I always do idk why you just seem extra scummy all the time kinda like NU) I need to work on my play forsure but atleast I tend to be pretty universally tranparent with my town play. This is the closest ai ever got to being mislynched sofar.

[BananaCucho]

Maybe im being a bit of a dick but ive literally never seen someone be so stupid as to claim what YZ claimed at the end of the game.... we were literally discussing how it was 100% in towns best interest for the jailkeeper to claim and that the scum knew who he was by process of elimination so it would benefit town a lot to know and he agreed with it and then he in the middle of this conversation claimed citizen and let Minized claim his role and then he just gave up and AFKd literally the single worst play ive ever seen in anyone of my games ever I am s angry its crazy... I really need him to come and explain his motoves for doing something so fucking retarded or I will never be able to get peace of mind

Its easy to understand why he did it, it was just not a great idea/plan probably inspired by my slightly more great idea/plan. He wanted to get MZ or Titus to claim jailkeep and then reveal and make it a 1v1 between them

It would seem like a backtrack unless pulled off the right way but meh, i don't hold it against him.

[Never Unlucky]

Also how do you keep getting mislynched all the time? What about ur play makes people scum read you? Its strange how often it happens.

I mean, this is the first time I ever get MLed in an actual game, zzz.

This game, out of the 8 other town, only 1 scum-read me. That's hardly being scum-read like you say.

Hey my play was pretty good though. It was so transparently obvious that I was hard town read for it lol

I hope this is an extension of your sarcasm play.

Yes, I was so close to that Vigilante achievement too...

RIP.

@Never Unlucky , I hope you did not feel shortchanged by my play.

I'll be honest -- Your play was bad. It was obvious you were scum. Unknown was the best scum, the only one who needed me to wear glasses to see through his play.

I'm not biased by salt, I'm speaking my mind here.

[Unknown1234]

Its easy to understand why he did it, it was just not a great idea/plan probably inspired by my slightly less great idea/plan. He wanted to get MZ or Titus to claim jailkeep and then reveal and make it a 1v1 between them

It would seem like a backtrack unless pulled off the right way but meh, i don't hold it against him.

We were actually hoping he would claim Jailkeeper to take attention off of Titus. It didn't happen

[Calix]

The only thing I can say within reason is that he probably didn't expect the day to end in 5 hours, and was trying to bait a Jailkeeper claim (I saw it coming)

From what I know, that was his main motivation to delay a Jailkeeper claim.

He also went to sleep, given it's overnight in the UK.

[Eggy]

The only thing I can say within reason is that he probably didn't expect the day to end in 5 hours, and was trying to bait a Jailkeeper claim (I saw it coming)

We had the game pretty much mechanically figured out. There was no reason to fae claim and whats worse is he did not even defend himself he just left after his cit claim and I guess gave up. Loterally should constitute as game throwing....

[Titus]

Tbh massclaim was ideal the moment GF flipped

[BananaCucho]

I mean, this is the first time I ever get MLed in an actual game, zzz.

This game, out of the 8 other town, only 1 scum-read me. That's hardly being scum-read like you say.



I hope this is an extension of your sarcasm play.



RIP.



I'll be honest -- Your play was bad. It was obvious you were scum. Unknown was the best scum, the only one who needed me to wear glasses to see through his play.

I'm not biased by salt, I'm speaking my mind here.

Don't be salty cause I didn't actually scum up and that's what you were praying to be right about for days

[BananaCucho]

Scum slip*

[Unknown1234]

I mean, this is the first time I ever get MLed in an actual game, zzz.

This game, out of the 8 other town, only 1 scum-read me. That's hardly being scum-read like you say.



I hope this is an extension of your sarcasm play.



RIP.



I'll be honest -- Your play was bad. It was obvious you were scum. Unknown was the best scum, the only one who needed me to wear glasses to see through his play.

I'm not biased by salt, I'm speaking my mind here.

I want to be perfectly honest here. I was going to change my play regardless, which may have been your tone read, otherwise it was mostly accurate but I got lazy again mid game and stopped.

[DarknessB]

Maybe im being a bit of a dick but ive literally never seen someone be so stupid as to claim what YZ claimed at the end of the game.... we were literally discussing how it was 100% in towns best interest for the jailkeeper to claim and that the scum knew who he was by process of elimination so it would benefit town a lot to know and he agreed with it and then he in the middle of this conversation claimed citizen and let Minized claim his role and then he just gave up and AFKd literally the single worst play ive ever seen in anyone of my games ever I am s angry its crazy... I really need him to come and explain his motoves for doing something so fucking retarded or I will never be able to get peace of mind

This is the definition of Fancy Play Syndrome. Rather than take the obvious Titus lynch on the table, he wanted to draw out MiniZed and get him to fake claim Jailkeeper, and I suppose go for a sudden 1v1 type deal. It backfired tremendously given the oversubscription on Citizen claims and resulted in the entire Town scumreading him for that. Take the easy lynch next time and consider the impact of lying to the Town during critical times. Mesk had originally claimed Citizen and it threw off Banana and my calculations to some extent. Lying about your role during MYLO as Town is just about never acceptable play.

[Eggy]

If I had listened to my instinct and YZ didnt claim I would have lynched titus and then MZ and we wud have won but the YZ claim just fucked me over so hard man like I still dont understand how given the situation he thought it was omay to attempt such a fake claim.

[Unknown1234]

Tbh massclaim was ideal the moment GF flipped

That was our nightmare. I shivered every time someone requested a mass claim because my 1v1 was happening 100%.

[DarknessB]

If I had listened to my instinct and YZ didnt claim I would have lynched titus and then MZ and we wud have won but the YZ claim just fucked me over so hard man like I still dont understand how given the situation he thought it was omay to attempt such a fake claim.

You all had the scumteam pegged before Yzb claimed -- that was the turning point. I could see the progression of posts from Banana and saw the impending doom from that point.

[Eggy]

This is the definition of Fancy Play Syndrome. Rather than take the obvious Titus lynch on the table, he wanted to draw out MiniZed and get him to fake claim Jailkeeper, and I suppose go for a sudden 1v1 type deal. It backfired tremendously given the oversubscription on Citizen claims and resulted in the entire Town scumreading him for that. Take the easy lynch next time and consider the impact of lying to the Town during critical times. Mesk had originally claimed Citizen and it threw off Banana and my calculations to some extent. Lying about your role during MYLO as Town is just about never acceptable play.

It wouldnt have been as bad if he went into the actually 1v1 situation afterwards we would have probably won by keepig are votes on titus and then figuring out between him and MZ who was scum thnks to YZ being able to jailkeep him the thing that made the play so tremondously terrible is he never even bothered to counterclaim he just claimed cot and afkd and let mini claim it in his spot and just give up and lose the game. So terrible anyway im to mad to deal with this right now Ill see u ppl in the next game.

[Unknown1234]

I didn't want to shoot GF but I'm glad I changed my shot to him at the last moment

Banana this post was against you.. Even with checking Darkness as Vigilante this set me off.

[Eggy]

You all had the scumteam pegged before Yzb claimed -- that was the turning point. I could see the progression of posts from Banana and saw the impending doom from that point.

Yea exactly im dumbfounded as to how someone cud have done tht. Im never gonna fallow up on a slip again from what ive seen in my experience is that "scum slips" are 99% toen being fucking retarded.

[DarknessB]

It wouldnt have been as bad if he went into the actually 1v1 situation afterwards we would have probably won by keepig are votes on titus and then figuring out between him and MZ who was scum thnks to YZ being able to jailkeep him the thing that made the play so tremondously terrible is he never even bothered to counterclaim he just claimed cot and afkd and let mini claim it in his spot and just give up and lose the game. So terrible anyway im to mad to deal with this right now Ill see u ppl in the next game.

I mean, never vote early during a MYLO or LYLO before everyone can get every last thought out? That doesn't excuse the insanity of a fake Town claim on one of those days, but anything can happen I guess?

[BananaCucho]

Banana this post was against you.. Even with checking Darkness as Vigilante this set me off.

Come again?

[Unknown1234]

It wouldnt have been as bad if he went into the actually 1v1 situation afterwards we would have probably won by keepig are votes on titus and then figuring out between him and MZ who was scum thnks to YZ being able to jailkeep him the thing that made the play so tremondously terrible is he never even bothered to counterclaim he just claimed cot and afkd and let mini claim it in his spot and just give up and lose the game. So terrible anyway im to mad to deal with this right now Ill see u ppl in the next game.

Eggy, I will suggest, however, to make sure you are actually reading me. Your comment about me always being scum to you will not help you at all in the future games where I am town.

[Unknown1234]

Come again?

You made it obvious you weren't Vigilante.

[BananaCucho]

Yea exactly im dumbfounded as to how someone cud have done tht. Im never gonna fallow up on a slip again from what ive seen in my experience is that "scum slips" are 99% toen being fucking retarded.

It wasn't even a slip though. He just claimed into the cit pool which was uber susp to me given the rhetoric the day before about scum being in the citizen pool and he had nothing to say about it

[Never Unlucky]

I mean, never vote early during a MYLO or LYLO before everyone can get every last thought out? That doesn't excuse the insanity of a fake Town claim on one of those days, but anything can happen I guess?

It literally just happened in BN with Spruance voting Iced. Thought Eggy had taken notes.

If I had listened to my instinct and YZ didnt claim I would have lynched titus and then MZ and we wud have won but the YZ claim just fucked me over so hard man like I still dont understand how given the situation he thought it was omay to attempt such a fake claim.

The 'If I had...' lead nowhere.

[BananaCucho]

You made it obvious you weren't Vigilante.

Not to Titus apparently lol

[Eggy]

I mean, never vote early during a MYLO or LYLO before everyone can get every last thought out? That doesn't excuse the insanity of a fake Town claim on one of those days, but anything can happen I guess?

Yea I was 100% sure itus was scum but yz claim just made me think I need who both the scum were but I guess I shud have expected that one cud b fake claiming for absolutely no reason.

[Never Unlucky]

Lessons to take from this game :
-Don’t give free passes to players who don’t contribute (GF, Spruance, Mesk, Eggy, etc.) because that is their meta;
-Meta reads should be taken with a grain of salt as meta evolves over games;
-Don’t let players with ≥10 posts /sign for a game. They won’t show up;
-Calix is a great host. She’s always on time and she posts dog gifs :3
-Vladimir Putin isn’t a man of people;
-Claim your fucking role in MYLO. Holy game-throw, yzb;
-Don’t troll about game-related sutff (i.e. role, reads, votes, night actions, etc.).

[Eggy]

It literally just happened in BN with Spruance voting Iced. Thought Eggy had taken notes.



The 'If I had...' lead nowhere.

It wasnt a random vote like spruances tho I was literally 100% sure he was scum never been so sure in my life

[BananaCucho]

I mean, never vote early during a MYLO or LYLO before everyone can get every last thought out? That doesn't excuse the insanity of a fake Town claim on one of those days, but anything can happen I guess?

Naw when a game is mechanically solved there is no need to drag it out. It was mechanically solved on what we had known and many game have ended with the same result after being dragged out and others with the opposite result being shortened. Dragging it out... Meh

[BananaCucho]

Lessons to take from this game :
-Don’t give free passes to players who don’t contribute (GF, Spruance, Mesk, Eggy, etc.) because that is their meta;
-Meta reads should be taken with a grain of salt as meta evolves over games;
-Don’t let players with ≥10 posts /sign for a game. They won’t show up;
-Calix is a great host. She’s always on time and she posts dog gifs :3
-Vladimir Putin isn’t a man of people;
-Claim your fucking role in MYLO. Holy game-throw, yzb;
-Don’t troll about game-related sutff (i.e. role, reads, votes, night actions, etc.).

"Mafia is a game that must be played a certain way because I said so. Heil Trump!"

K.

[DarknessB]

Thoughts:

Lessons to take from this game :
-Don’t give free passes to players who don’t contribute (GF, Spruance, Mesk, Eggy, etc.) because that is their meta;
I feel like we say this every game and it never changes -- it's always low-hanging fruit participators that get lynched vs. lurkers.
-Meta reads should be taken with a grain of salt as meta evolves over games;
Yes, people are overly dependent on meta and it's a problem, especially with a very small group of players who sign regularly for games here. If we had more players, then everyone wouldn't be so insanely familiar with everyone's else's playstyle and people would be more focused on in-game reads vs. meta probably.
-Don’t let players with ≥10 posts /sign for a game. They won’t show up;
Sadly, site rules preclude preventing players from signing. Also, everyone starts as a new player at some point. The issue is perhaps more with hosts having reserves (if we have that many people anymore) and making sure they check in with new players to confirm participation frequently.
-Calix is a great host. She’s always on time and she posts dog gifs :3
Yes, Calix is very dedicated; perhaps, more than many of us deserve given the decline in play over the last say year.
-Vladimir Putin isn’t a man of people;
LOL, really not sure where you got that from in the first place.
-Claim your fucking role in MYLO. Holy game-throw, yzb;
This is the "Lynch All Liars" principle -- if you're lying as Town, there better be a damn good reason. MYLO isn't the right time for that in 99.9% of cases, especially when you have a guaranteed lynch on the table.
-Don’t troll about game-related sutff (i.e. role, reads, votes, night actions, etc.).
Trolling causes a lot of problems and rarely is read the right way. Not a good decision and many people do it sadly.

[DarknessB]

Naw when a game is mechanically solved there is no need to drag it out. It was mechanically solved on what we had known and many game have ended with the same result after being dragged out and others with the opposite result being shortened. Dragging it out... Meh

The issue is that players often are erratic and try insane gambits here so what might appear to be solved from the Town's limited vantage point might be problematic in an objective sense.

[BananaCucho]

The issue is that players often are erratic and try insane gambits here so what might appear to be solved from the Town's limited vantage point might be problematic in an objective sense.

Yeah but dragging it out what happens? Yzb reverses. I probably don't believe him since he said before he hasn't seen Titus claim. So I probably still lynch him anyway. Or I lynch Titus and then have to choose between minized and yzb and I probably don't trust yzbs claim. Same result most likely.

[DarknessB]

Yeah but dragging it out what happens? Yzb reverses. I probably don't believe him since he said before he hasn't seen Titus claim. So I probably still lynch him anyway. Or I lynch Titus and then have to choose between minized and yzb and I probably don't trust yzbs claim. Same result most likely.

I agree -- I think yzb was screwed as soon as he claimed Citizen. No one is going to believe a flip-flopping role claim on MYLO. I really have no idea how he envisioned that working out in his favor, especially when MiniZed had the red carpet all to himself to claim Jailkeeper.

[DarknessB]

I agree -- I think yzb was screwed as soon as he claimed Citizen. No one is going to believe a flip-flopping role claim on MYLO. I really have no idea how he envisioned that working out in his favor, especially when MiniZed had the red carpet all to himself to claim Jailkeeper.

IMO, it was basically as close to a game-throw as can be without actually being a game-throw. I'd characterize it as aggressively reckless and exceptionally low percentage strategy.

[Unknown1234]

Yeah but dragging it out what happens? Yzb reverses. I probably don't believe him since he said before he hasn't seen Titus claim. So I probably still lynch him anyway. Or I lynch Titus and then have to choose between minized and yzb and I probably don't trust yzbs claim. Same result most likely.

For what it's worth, the reason I needed yzb dead and why I wanted Eggy dead the day before was because he could have simply jailed me if Titus was lynched, leaving it in a 4v1 where no matter what the outcome Scum loses.

[JealousTL]

Bc in your SIG every name was town.

The post game reflects why town lost. Zero working together

Yea, I've already said everything I have to say about this game and its participants, here and elsewhere.

GG everyone.

[secondpassing]

Yea, I've already said everything I have to say about this game and its participants, here and elsewhere.

GG everyone.

Many thanks to you subbing in for this game. Sorry you got killed early, but I guess you can take that as a compliment?
You're a strong player!

[secondpassing]

It was a frustrating game, but nonetheless a good one. Thank you to Calix for putting up with us.
I wonder how it must have felt to see everyone's roles in the beginning.

[secondpassing]

One of the issues that the Town had was the erratic playstyles of SP and Yzb, who were two of the more active Town members. Guys, I understand you approach scumhunting and scumreading differently than most players, but one of the three elements of being effective Town is persuasion. You have to put yourselves in the shoes of the players that you're trying to persuade. Comments like "he can't be scum because only Town are funny" and lying to the Town about your role to try to get the scum to fakeclaim -- they're just not high percentage plays at all.

I recognize this isn't going to change overnight and even if there is improvement, it probably won't change entirely (i.e. we all have our base tendencies), but constantly being mislynched should be an indication that what you're doing now simply isn't working too well and you need to modify your approach to be a bit more standard. Offering a unique perspective, but it needs to be in ways that are approachable to other players.

I actually included a couple logical points with that post that I think you missed; however, they were number four and five respectively— the fact that you did not quote them when you attempted to responded to my post signals to me that I should keep my real reasons for reading people at the end of the list.

I'll start with the logical reasons to read people THEN post my real reasons. Hope it doesn't come off as BS in future games.
(I still wonder why you think they were not valid reasons, but that is another discussion.)



Forgive me DarknessB, I had attempted to hide my real personality for the start, but after day one — and reinforced by the end game reveals, all of my logical reads were incorrect. My mind had told me that MiniZed was town, Eggy was scum, BananaCucho was scum, and Titus was town. -> Last one was fighting with my emotional reads.

Other than that, I managed to survive day one. I count that as some sort of a win. One day, I'll be able to hold my logical persona for longer, and with time, it should incorporate into my standard play.
I also managed to not make too many meta reads. This is a plus.

[secondpassing]

Now to tie up some loose ends:

@MiniZed , Well played! You managed to escape suspicion from the majority of town, and you worked well with Titus to secure a victory. On the day after DarknessB died you still had that chance to win even if Titus had been lynched.

@Mesk514 , no idea why you think my play was so bad. It was, not going to lie about that, but why you thought it was bad I would like to hear from another perspective. I've got quite a lot to work on! (still working on stuff from Helz, Calix, DarknessB) Also, after I was dead someone kept quoting my posts. Did you get that resolved okay?

@Titus , calling you trash had little to do with how I think of you as a person. Don't take it personally... sort of.

Policy Lynching: good or bad?
The policy lynch targets were ~ 4 (Mesk, Eggy, Char Char the Cameleon, BananaCucho): 1(GameFreak) on day 1. Which means if we policy lynched one of these players, it would have been not a good choice? due to the ratio being the less than setup average. This wasn't exactly a typical game, and I'm going to need to do my own research and re-look at Iced_Monopoly's research.