Next starter game.

[MattZed]

I guess this:

Mafioso
Consort
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

would also not bother you?

Not as big of a fan because it gives 2 unique TPRs town can claim, but like Crypt said it's better if consort can roleblock and kill alone.

[Calix]

Not as big of a fan because it gives 2 unique TPRs town can claim, but like Crypt said it's better if consort can roleblock and kill alone.

Yeah, that is a given, otherwise it risks turning into Follow The Cop.

Also I'm not doing Last Wills.

And the point is that scum learn to counter-claim convincingly.

[DarknessB]

Yeah, that is a given, otherwise it risks turning into Follow The Cop.

Also I'm not doing Last Wills.

And the point is that scum learn to counter-claim convincingly.

I don't feel like anyone really used their last will that effectively in the first beginner game anyway. I would rather have the focus be on action in the game while you are alive vs. writing a great last will.

[MattZed]

I'm open to other TPR possibilities. Town needs at least something; 5v2 is a 77% Mafia win with random kills. You can throw a Bus Driver in there for shits and giggles.

[Orpz]

I also agree that making mistakes is the best way to learn. When something memorable happens, either thru amazement or embarrassment, you remember that. That lesson will stick with you and prevent you from making the same mistake twice. If you are a sheep in a game and just following the lead of a loud person, and you end up losing cause that loud person was scum.. Maybe next time you're going to question this loud person, instead of sitting back and following.

I do agree that a mentor shouldn't specifically be in a game to help a specific person, but veterans can mentor people in the same game by offering advice like "We should be asking questions about x" and things like that so players know what to look for.

That's just my opinion, though. I feel the best way to learn something is by failing. You don't get better at anything by competing with people worse than you. This doesn't just go for FM, it goes for all aspects of life.

I completely agree. I made so many mistakes my first few games (still do!) and through all these years I remember explicitly the details of the game and what I learned from it moving forward. In my second game, I was Slenderman and basically a MM against a whole slew of experienced players and was quickly caught and killed. I lost, but even today I still remember all the tells I gave off and what I could have done better. I was even place on Crypt's S-FM ladder at one time.

We shouldn't be afraid of losing S-FM games. We should be more worried about not improving! And as Crypt says, this applies to all aspects of life

[DarknessB]

I'm open to other TPR possibilities. Town needs at least something; 5v2 is a 77% Mafia win with random kills. You can throw a Bus Driver in there for shits and giggles.

I think this is a terrible idea for a newcomer game, lol. Many veterans don't know how to play BD well even.

[MattZed]

I think this is a terrible idea for a newcomer game, lol. Many veterans don't know how to play BD well even.

Everyone has to learn somewhere.

[Calix]

Everyone has to learn somewhere.

The dude who ""balances"" the setups, everyone!

[DarknessB]

Everyone has to learn somewhere.

Yeah, the idea isn't to give beginners a trolly setup that won't be like what they would typically encounter in most games. It's far more useful to learn how to use a Sheriff or Doctor or Escort / Consort than a Bus Driver.

[MattZed]

Yeah, the idea isn't to give beginners a trolly setup that won't be like what they would typically encounter in most games. It's far more useful to learn how to use a Sheriff or Doctor or Escort / Consort than a Bus Driver.

I don't think Bus Driver is an especially trolly role. Maybe a little underpowered, but we'd have to see.

To be clear, the setup I'm proposing is:
Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

[ika]

just make bus driver unable to target self and your good to go.

if bus driver can self target its basicly an inviclbie townie

[DarknessB]

I don't think Bus Driver is an especially trolly role. Maybe a little underpowered, but we'd have to see.

To be clear, the setup I'm proposing is:
Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

I would rather see this as a Vanilla S-FM than a Beginner's Game, but others can disagree of course. More value to me in teaching beginners how to work with Cops and Doctors.

[Cryptonic]

The only thing I don't like is that every role is set -- i.e. no possibility of any other configuration like with Matrix. It's fundamentally sound though. You might also consider whether to enable or disable LWs in terms of the Sheriff's leads.

What's wrong with that, though?
No last wills, either.

[Cryptonic]

Not as big of a fan because it gives 2 unique TPRs town can claim, but like Crypt said it's better if consort can roleblock and kill alone.

But then Mafioso Counter Claims, Town doesn't lynch between the two, and Consort roleblocks and both claim roleblocked.

The setup is specifically against rolecalling.

There are also Citizens.

[DarknessB]

What's wrong with that, though?
No last wills, either.

Nothing's wrong with that in particular -- just seems a little boring, lol.

[Cryptonic]

Nothing's wrong with that in particular -- just seems a little boring, lol.

I don't see how. The fun in Mafia comes from misleading, lying, and finding the lies.
I think it's boring when half a game is trying to figure out the rolelist and comparing it to the graveyard and trying to apply broken statistics to lynch options.

[MattZed]

But then Mafioso Counter Claims, Town doesn't lynch between the two, and Consort roleblocks and both claim roleblocked.

The setup is specifically against rolecalling.

There are also Citizens.

My point is that, unless you're at LYLO, the TPRs can claim and town won't lynch without a CC. If no CC, then they're immune to lynch; but if there's a CC then town should pick between them and lynch the other tomorrow. The Mafioso ends up either losing a 1v1 or getting lynched the next day.

Of course, in a 5v2 most of the game is probably LYLO. 1v1'ing a TPR is still precarious, though.

[DarknessB]

7 or 9 player setup?

I know we've talked about this before, but I would suggest 9 players, just like the last game. 7 player games are over very quickly and I think most new players would like to time to settle in and get used to the game before it ends. The length felt appropriate here in terms of letting players get to know each other and the game, but not too long. 7 players would be cutting off a day essentially. In a 7 player game (assuming 5-2 start), one mislynch is 4-2, night kill is 3-2. Going into a 3-2 LYLO on Day 2 seems way too fast to me.

[Cryptonic]

My point is that, unless you're at LYLO, the TPRs can claim and town won't lynch without a CC. If no CC, then they're immune to lynch; but if there's a CC then town should pick between them and lynch the other tomorrow. The Mafioso ends up either losing a 1v1 or getting lynched the next day.

Of course, in a 5v2 most of the game is probably LYLO. 1v1'ing a TPR is still precarious, though.

No, because town can't claim without being cc'd. If Mafia doesn't CC TPR or doesn't claim TPR first, then they will lose regardless. That's the way the setup is.
You can't lynch between the TPR claims, because then you risk losing your TPRs. The only time you are forced to lynch between TPR and scum CC is when both TPRs claim and both Mafia's CC. And that's only possible if Citizen is killed n1. Better to listen to both Sheriff's results on who is guilty & innocent most the time.

Worst case scenario for Mafia:

5v2 - Mafia kills Citizen
4v2 - both Mafia CC TPR, lynch between Sheriff claims because Doctor prevents Sheriff from dying if he's alive. Consort shouldn't CC the Sheriff, because Consort is more important to Mafia; Consort CC's Doctor. Mafioso Lynched, Consort blocks Doctor, kills Sheriff.
3v1 - MYLO 50/50 between 2 Doctor claims.

How is that not balanced?

and I guarantee you, Doctor will NOT out themselves.


Also, you said lynch one and then the other tomorrow:

5v2 Mafia kills Citizen
4v2 2 Sheriff Claims, Town lynches Sheriff, Mafia kills Citizen
2v2, Town loses.

^that's why it's bad lol

[MattZed]

What. Why are you assuming D1 is no-lynch?

[Cryptonic]

What. Why are you assuming D1 is no-lynch?

Yea if D1 lynch is Mafia, obviously Mafia is fucked regardless of what happens.
Are you saying d1 TPR claims?

Also, what prevents Citizen from claiming TPR?

[MattZed]

Yea if D1 lynch is Mafia, obviously Mafia is fucked regardless of what happens.
Are you saying d1 TPR claims?

Also, what prevents Citizen from claiming TPR?

I'm saying D1 TPR claims to prevent themselves being mislynched, yeah.

What should stop Cit is knowing that town tends to win more if Citizens rarely fakeclaim. That, and the fact that this could draw out a CC from the real sheriff and just mess everything up.

[Cryptonic]

I'm saying D1 TPR claims to prevent themselves being mislynched, yeah.

What should stop Cit is knowing that town tends to win more if Citizens rarely fakeclaim. That, and the fact that this could draw out a CC from the real sheriff and just mess everything up.

So, hypothetically, what TPRs claim on D1

[Firebringer]

Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

[DarknessB]

Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

This is so scummy...

-vote Firebringer

[The Godfather]

Firebringer has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Firebringer (1 [L-0]): DarknessB

[Firebringer]

OMGUS vote for you:

-vote DarknessB

[The Godfather]

Firebringer has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Firebringer (1 [L-0]): DarknessB

[DarknessB]

Real response below:

Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Basically, it would put everyone in a crummy position. The mentor would have to be deceiving the mentee, the mentee might not trust the mentor as much (given the risk of being on different teams), or the mentor would have to play less aggressively (putting the mentee's experience above being competitive in the game). The whole thing is just rife with conflict of interest and against the point of a mentor. Mentors are supposed to be 100% on a mentee's side and acting in the mentee's best interests.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

Honestly, I don't think this was a problem at all and in fact, quit the opposite was the issue where mentors were absentee and mentees were clamoring for more help and direction, but not getting it from their mentors. I think mentees realize they are the ones playing the game and aren't just going to hand over the keyboard to the mentors to make posts. That having been said, there's a lot of value to active mentors who are really taking the opportunity to teach their mentees and expose them to ways of thinking about scumhunting, defending themselves, reading other players, etc. No one is saying do the work for the mentee, but being engaged is necessary, or else it's almost silly to be a mentor and just answer mechanical questions about how to vote and whatnot.

[SuperJack]

I don't remember anyone suggesting about mentors being in the game.
All that was suggested was putting in people who have a bit of fm experience just to help get things rolling.

[Frozen Angel]

Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

No you have no idea where I'm coming from . and it appears no one understand me.

just throw what I was saying away.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't remember anyone suggesting about mentors being in the game.
All that was suggested was putting in people who have a bit of fm experience just to help get things rolling.

yeah you did understand!

FA wants to give you a hug! :P

[Fatalis]

IMO there's no need for 'starter games', just have vanilla or near-vanilla setups that anyone can join. That should provide a wide skill range of players.

[Firebringer]

No you have no idea where I'm coming from . and it appears no one understand me.

just throw what I was saying away.

I love you Frozen.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Ya all are Fking town. I'm the confirmed scum
My role isJudge

[Gyrlander]

Ya all are Fking town. I'm the confirmed scum
My role isJudge

W8 I'll reveal as Marshall so you can lynch crypt, db and calix at the same time. Ty

[Yukitaka Oni]

W8 I'll reveal as Marshall so you can lynch crypt, db and calix at the same time. Ty

-vote Calix

-vote Cryptonic

eh? Who's the last one lol

[The Godfather]

Calix has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Calix (1 [L-0]): Yukitaka Oni

[Frozen Angel]

Stop lynching poor Calix

I like her

and clearly you can't lynh her ever!

[Gyrlander]

Stop lynching poor Calix

I like her

and clearly you can't lynh her ever!

Okey, we'll let her live. At a cost.

-vote Frozen Angel

[The Godfather]

Frozen Angel has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Frozen Angel (1 [L-0]): Gyrlander

[DarknessB]

Changed vote threshold to avoid further trolling.

[NoctiZ]

I completely agree. I made so many mistakes my first few games (still do!) and through all these years I remember explicitly the details of the game and what I learned from it moving forward. In my second game, I was Slenderman and basically a MM against a whole slew of experienced players and was quickly caught and killed. I lost, but even today I still remember all the tells I gave off and what I could have done better. I was even place on Crypt's S-FM ladder at one time.

We shouldn't be afraid of losing S-FM games. We should be more worried about not improving! And as Crypt says, this applies to all aspects of life

That was your second game? Pretty sure I was an Escort in that game and figured you out as a fake Escort claimer.. or maybe I'm mixing things up. Either way it was one of my earlier games, too. That was a lot of fun.

[BananaCucho]

Jesus what is this thread, a discussion or a game

Wall posts everywhere

[GoatseOntheCupboard]

/sign also [boat]banananacochoo[boat\]

[Whad]

There have been a lot of good ideas suggested here, and it looks like you will try a variety of different styles of beginner games. I just wanted to express that I'm available and willing to either play in games with new players or to mentor players in any capacity needed. This account here is new, but I have several years of FM experience under my belt on other sites and teaching/mentoring is something that I am passionate about!

Cheers,
Whad.

[Mesk514]

Cheers,
Whad.

This signature, that avatar, that hair cut = priceless! sign me up.