Let's talk Doctor

[KJS]

Recently, I've been seeing more and more people leave when they get a "boring" Town role. This leave (usually a Doctor) starts the Town off with a significant disadvantage and often causes leave trains from Town members.

Doctors get the worst of everything - they can't kill, find scum, or protect themselves. They often get blind lynched, and can't produce enough evidence to prove themselves innocent like many other town roles can. Most Triad/Mafia/Neut Killing also claim Doctor, which makes their job even harder.

I've been thinking - is there any way to give more power to roles like the Doctor? Any way to prove, for example, that you're not something like an Arsonist or Witch Doctor? At the very least, we should implement something that reduces the amount of leavers and trolls.

For example, the person being attacked should receive a notifcation like, "You were attacked and left for dead, but ______ nursed you back to health!"

This change would add an additional incentive for doctors to target people who they think will be attacked and would make doctors more cautious while choosing a person to heal (in the event that someone they heal is a member of the Maf/Triad, revealing their identity to them)

It would also make confirming themselves a lot easier in the event that the person they heal is a member of the Town (again, incentives encourage smart play).

Post your ideas in this thread if you think there's a role that needs a bit more love, and add a change/idea that you think would help that role become more "fun" to play.

[SuperJack]

Wait. Why can't Doctors find Scum?

Aka:

You forget the best way of finding Scum. By reading+analysing.
This is the core idea of mafia. Night action roles are just extra. I've found many Scum just by reading what they say [or lack of what they say] or by their vote pattern.

As a doctor. It's your Job to figure out who the Scum wants to kill. Is it the active person who is pushing for Scum lynches? Is it the person who slipped that they are Jailor.

I find that Scum claim bg more than anything.

[DarknessB]

Also, leaving the game after you get your role = role quitting. It's an in-game offense that should be reported because it messes up the balance of the game. Sure, you might not want to be Doctor but someone has to play the role. It's one of the most fundamental protective roles in the game and it serves an important function. In my opinion, it's plenty powerful as it is and does not need a buff.

Lastly, remember that traditional Mafia just had Citizens, Doctor, Sheriff, and Mafioso, and we're talking tons of Citizens, maybe 1 Doctor, 1 Sheriff, and a couple Mafioso. If you want to up the power level of roles too much, the game becomes more about night actions then about the daytime discussion, which is really the heart of what Mafia is supposed to be. I know the SC2 mod has become more about TPR madness these days, but that's perhaps a negative shift, which shouldn't be encouraged any further.

For example, the person being attacked should receive a notifcation like, "You were attacked and left for dead, but ______ nursed you back to health!"

This change would add an additional incentive for doctors to target people who they think will be attacked and would make doctors more cautious while choosing a person to heal (in the event that someone they heal is a member of the Maf/Triad, revealing their identity to them)

It would also make confirming themselves a lot easier in the event that the person they heal is a member of the Town (again, incentives encourage smart play).

Post your ideas in this thread if you think there's a role that needs a bit more love, and add a change/idea that you think would help that role become more "fun" to play.

Just to put more emphasis on what you've just said, what happens if the Doctor accidentally heals a Neutral Evil or non-night immune Mafia? Per your suggestion, the Doctor would be outed to the scum. Not good, and actually makes the Doctor weaker, which is contrary to your intent. There are also many instances where targets can be redirected -- Bus Driver, Witch, Beguiler, etc. You're essentially increasing the chances that a Doctor will get outed, which is usually not a good thing.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Recently, I've been seeing more and more people leave when they get a "boring" Town role. This leave (usually a Doctor) starts the Town off with a significant disadvantage and often causes leave trains from Town members.

Doctors get the worst of everything - they can't kill, find scum, or protect themselves. They often get blind lynched, and can't produce enough evidence to prove themselves innocent like many other town roles can. Most Triad/Mafia/Neut Killing also claim Doctor, which makes their job even harder.

I've been thinking - is there any way to give more power to roles like the Doctor? Any way to prove, for example, that you're not something like an Arsonist or Witch Doctor? At the very least, we should implement something that reduces the amount of leavers and trolls.

For example, the person being attacked should receive a notifcation like, "You were attacked and left for dead, but ______ nursed you back to health!"

This change would add an additional incentive for doctors to target people who they think will be attacked and would make doctors more cautious while choosing a person to heal (in the event that someone they heal is a member of the Maf/Triad, revealing their identity to them)

It would also make confirming themselves a lot easier in the event that the person they heal is a member of the Town (again, incentives encourage smart play).

Post your ideas in this thread if you think there's a role that needs a bit more love, and add a change/idea that you think would help that role become more "fun" to play.

Because people never respect doctor, that why they quit saving people and shake hand with the reaper v)x.o)>! They are........scum themselves already

[KJS]

Right, I fully understand that. Most Doctors ARE paying very close attention to the chat and reading + analyzing as the game progresses. However, the same problem occurs. It's a "boring" role to most, and the same problems that I noted from my original post still apply.

In today's game, people will thoroughly scrutinize you whenever you announce, "I have a lead".

Heck, saying something like, "I have a hunch!" will often get you lynched, and people who start voting up someone they believe is guilty will usually get voted up instead.

Imagine yourself as the Doctor in this scenario. You've been analyzing chat logs, noting whispers, and quietly putting leads in your last will. Then, when you finally think you have one of the Mafia members, you announce it to the public and you get asked, "What's your role?"

Almost no one will follow a lead nowadays unless it comes from someone claiming to be a Sheriff/Investigator. Leads from a Doctor are looked down upon and often ignored, and if you really do find and announce scum to the town, you'll likely get silenced/killed/doused/whatever by the person or people you suggested to lynch. Hell, if you find a Town member on accident, the Mafia will kill you anyways and then the Town will lynch the person you suggested because they're the most likely to have killed you.

Again, I feel the way the game is nowadays the Doctor needs some kind of power to prove credibility or make themselves an active force in the game.

[SuperJack]

Right, I fully understand that. Most Doctors ARE paying very close attention to the chat and reading + analyzing as the game progresses. However, the same problem occurs. It's a "boring" role to most, and the same problems that I noted from my original post still apply.

In today's game, people will thoroughly scrutinize you whenever you announce, "I have a lead".

Heck, saying something like, "I have a hunch!" will often get you lynched, and people who start voting up someone they believe is guilty will usually get voted up instead.

Imagine yourself as the Doctor in this scenario. You've been analyzing chat logs, noting whispers, and quietly putting leads in your last will. Then, when you finally think you have one of the Mafia members, you announce it to the public and you get asked, "What's your role?"

Almost no one will follow a lead nowadays unless it comes from someone claiming to be a Sheriff/Investigator. Leads from a Doctor are looked down upon and often ignored, and if you really do find and announce scum to the town, you'll likely get silenced/killed/doused/whatever by the person or people you suggested to lynch. Hell, if you find a Town member on accident, the Mafia will kill you anyways and then the Town will lynch the person you suggested because they're the most likely to have killed you.

Again, I feel the way the game is nowadays the Doctor needs some kind of power to prove credibility or make themselves an active force in the game.

In many games I have no problem getting people I see as Scum trailed or lynched no matter what my role is. If you are unable to do this without having to have feedback confirmed you are town 100%. Then perhaps change the way you say it.

Try not dollying about and go straight into the attack. Telling everyone you "have a hunch" is not a great way to start a lynch.

So basically. You just want more solidified confirmed town roles? Then what happens to all other roles? Should we notify someone when they are being watched by a bodyguard? Or else the bodyguard has 0 ways of proving his role.
Should the spy be able to read private messages again?. Or else he could just be a mafia member easily faking spy.
At the end of the day. The way you earn credibility is by what you say. Not what you do. It's a discussion based game.

I do like that you are structuring a balenced arguement. Have you ever tried forum mafia? It's the next level up from the mod. And whatever you post people really do read and listen to.

[Yukitaka Oni]

In many games I have no problem getting people I see as Scum trailed or lynched no matter what my role is. If you are unable to do this without having to have feedback confirmed you are town 100%. Then perhaps change the way you say it.

Try not dollying about and go straight into the attack. Telling everyone you "have a hunch" is not a great way to start a lynch.

So basically. You just want more solidified confirmed town roles? Then what happens to all other roles? Should we notify someone when they are being watched by a bodyguard? Or else the bodyguard has 0 ways of proving his role.
Should the spy be able to read private messages again?. Or else he could just be a mafia member easily faking spy.
At the end of the day. The way you earn credibility is by what you say. Not what you do. It's a discussion based game.

I do like that you are structuring a balenced arguement. Have you ever tried forum mafia? It's the next level up from the mod. And whatever you post people really do read and listen to.

Too op!

-vote SuperJack

We must kill the england! He's too danger for mafia v)x.o)>!

[DarknessB]

In many games I have no problem getting people I see as Scum trailed or lynched no matter what my role is. If you are unable to do this without having to have feedback confirmed you are town 100%. Then perhaps change the way you say it.

Try not dollying about and go straight into the attack. Telling everyone you "have a hunch" is not a great way to start a lynch.

So basically. You just want more solidified confirmed town roles? Then what happens to all other roles? Should we notify someone when they are being watched by a bodyguard? Or else the bodyguard has 0 ways of proving his role.
Should the spy be able to read private messages again?. Or else he could just be a mafia member easily faking spy.
At the end of the day. The way you earn credibility is by what you say. Not what you do. It's a discussion based game.

I do like that you are structuring a balenced arguement. Have you ever tried forum mafia? It's the next level up from the mod. And whatever you post people really do read and listen to.

Agree with SuperJack here. Your preface is probably not doing you any favors given Mafia is a game of persuasion. Which sounds more effective:

1) 6 is acting really fishy, hasn't said much but keeps voting on mislynches -- let's vote him up to get his role; or
2) Don't really have any lead guys, but just a hunch, maybe 6? Could be worth voting him?

You have to be forceful and convinced yourself if you want people to listen to you. Have you ever played games with Firebringer? One of the core elements of his strategy is what he calls the "Sheriff Jailor" which essentially amounts to pressure votes without any information usually, either to see voting patterns or get role claims. His approach is often "I am Town Leader, get 6" and it works a lot of the time.

As SuperJack is saying, you seem to be advocating for more confirmable roles which turns the game into night action RNG vs. discussion-based. This is a very slippery slope that further weakens the value of daytime discussion and the ability to persuade players. In traditional Mafia, it was really supposed to be about the day. At night, there would be one Mafia kill, maybe one Sheriff peek / investigation, and maybe one Doctor protect -- that's it.

A couple of other related points:

In the current SC2 Mafia game, players SHOULD scrutinize those putting forth leads given there are potentially a million ways even a honest lead could be wrong: Bus Driver, Beguiler, Framer, Witch. And, that's not even taking into account the fact that you could be lying for some reason (Executioner, Jester, other scum).

I think you will understand and enjoy the game more if you realize the value of persuasiveness and daytime discussion. Think of Mafia less in terms of digging up the right night leads, and more in terms of observing players' behaviors during the day, looking at voting patterns, seeing who votes with whom, who is on the wrong votes, etc. A very simple example is as follows, a Member of the Mafia gets lynched on a 4-2 vote. Aren't you going to be inclined to vote up the 2 innocents? Decent chance they were trying to defend their ally?

TPRs (i.e. Town Power Roles -- non-Citizens) are very important in Mafia, but they are not the be-all, end-all. If you really want to take your Mafia play to the next level, you should try to start making contributions in daytime discussion beyond your role. We can gladly give you more pointers on strategy if this isn't entirely clear.