S-FM 162: Watermeloann

[SuperJack]

I'm sick of MVP.
Just like the last game. People are voting for the wrong reasons. Voting friends or someone else to spite someone. To effect the ladder or voting someone as a personal favour.

[SuperJack]

-unvote

kk

[Slaol]

[Firebringer]

That picture doesn't work.

[Zekrom2802]

That picture doesn't work.

Yes it does, you simply are not powerful enough to see it.

[Orpz]

You need an Sc2Mafia GOLD account to access that image. $20/year

[ika]

I'm sick of MVP.
Just like the last game. People are voting for the wrong reasons. Voting friends or someone else to spite someone. To effect the ladder or voting someone as a personal favour.

And now you get why i almost always vote nobody for an MVP

[SuperJack]

And now you get why i almost always vote nobody for an MVP

I just think you are too inactive/lazy/careless to post it. And use the empty space chance fill card excuse to pretend that your a sense has real meaning.

[ika]

Complains about mvp

I voice agreement

Complains to me about me agreeing

Lol

[Slaol]

Proper Epilogue

The exact text Orps received was as follows.

2 Mafia
- Drug Dealer: Drug a player at night. They are prevented from using any 2 letters of the alphabet for the rest of the game. They also trip such balls that they are unable to explain what is happening.
- Manipulator: Force a player to act on another player. You also have 2 charges of manipulating the host. You may activate this during the day and for the rest of the day all questions will be ignored until the end of day. At that time any you have submitted answers for will be answered that way. These answers will never be corrected.

8 Town
- Tailor: Dress a player in any color of clothing. You may choose between white, black, gray, red, green, yellow, purple, orange, brown, and pink. You are in blue.
- Clock Maker: At night you decide the order of night actions for the following night
- Lookout: You watch your target from your house, observing things about their night.
- Hero of Time: You may travel through time to any night and check a player for what happened to them that night. You may also travel into the future to a time after you die to make a single post. You must submit this action (picking the day) before you die.
- Donald Trump: Everyone else is a loser. You ruin peoples evenings and prevent them from doing things. You also earn money nightly that you can use to purchase items.
- Citizen: the last citizen earns a gun and a vest
- Citizen
- Citizen

1 Evil
- Archeologist: using https://geoguessr.com you must get a score of 12,500 or higher in a 5 round single player mode and submit the screenshot of all 5 location scores and the total for the night. If you do you earn an item at night that will allow unique actions.

1 Benign
- Watermeloann: You have made a very bad name to yourself

Win Conditions
Survive to see the Town eliminated
Survive to see the Mafia and Evil eliminated
Survive to see the Town eliminated
Have every player alive in the game lynch you in a single day, this ends the game

lynch mechanics
- lynhces can not occur until a code word is said
the code words are
I, have, made, a, very, bad, name, to, and myself. They will cycle.
Days will continue until a lynch occurs and at each 24 hour interval if the codeword was said the hammer vote will be plugged in

special mechanics
- if Drug Dealer sends the same person drugs 3 times it will cause an event where everyone except him is given an anonymous account for the day
- the Tailor's clothes are immune to changing account
- I havent locked down Archeologist items yet but they will be growing in insanity
- Trump items will be real world items found on amazon. if they can be used in the game they will be allowed to be. 1 per night
- after the game has dwindled to 6 players 3 random players will be returned to the game on anonymous accounts
- after the game has fallen to 3 original players 2 more random players will be returned to the game on anonymous accounts
- after the game has fallen to only 1 remaining original player 1 more random player will be returned to the game
- Watermeloann will not be in the returning players. However you, Orpz, may enter the game as Watermeloann if you want should this occur and you random properly

Some minor changes were made as we went along to keep things in line.

Noteable changes made pre-game were

1. Clue style grave making the Tailor a Coroner instead of a weird Lookout/Hero of Time interacting Fruit Vendor
2. Watermeloann had his Green hat on
3. Roles being less than specific when it came to alignment and win condition
4. Watermeloann could ask and receive his appropriate win condition.
5. Role cards being non-uniform
6. Quoting feedback was allowed
7. PMs were allowed
8. No Last Wills
9. Guns and Vests were given leeway. Day shooting was going to be allowed and Vests would be stronger like to avoid lynches.
10. Anon accounts could not claim their old account and didn't keep the clothes from Tailor since Tailor was buffed
11. Clarification that Town does win together, not just by living to the win.

Noteable progress made as game went on to keep things reasonable

1. Quoting role cards was made acceptable
2. Lynch was activated the moment I realized it was triggered
3. Guns and Vests were actually made even better as Frog suggested he would give away his vest and I had no rule for it being illegal
4. The second and third player return mechanic were scrapped to give the game a decent end time. Having 3 more people enter the game would have extended it further, and by the point it activated everyone's body was ready for a finale.
5. The Lynch requirement didn't cycle but ended instead
6. By nature of how they operated Donald Trump's Store and the Archeologist's items were made as we went. I had pre-game ideas for the Archeologist, but I ran out.
7. I felt bad that Town randomed into 3 Town on the first revive but the balance worked out in the end with a 4-1 at the time of the rule removal. Bringing back scum at that point would have been an auto-town-loss imo.

Comments on the Watermeloanns

DarknessB: Easily the game winning play on the final night. Really hurt Trump the whole time by stealing all his money, but seeing as Trump didn't know how to use it and wouldn't even end up going with purchasing the book 'The Winner' to auto win the game I can't say it did too much.
Firebringer: Less than expected. He helped lead to my willingness on role cards. So that did mean a good deal though.
Frog: Pretty decent except for his shot on Numbertwo. Did help discover the feedback and role card PM mechanics.
Ika: Short lived. Not much to say.
MattZed: My selection for MVP far and away. Surviving as long as he did against the actions of both the Town and Mafia. Revealing himself as neutral and not being killed. Taking back his lance and making what I consider to be basically strictly wise actions. If it wasn't for a few possible other ways for the last few days to go he would have won. His use of the being Drugged mechanic to just make himself as evil and regrettable of a day poster as he could really seemed to irritate the Town and even with doing 0 contributing, intentionally misleading in fact, he managed to be Town read by nearly everyone until very late. Even late I'd say people still seemed to side with him in the confusion. If it wasn't for the shenanigans that happened the final night(s) I know he'd have won and given all that he did it almost hurt me to give him his feedback that last night.
Numbertwo: Good contributions. Not as overall impactful as some but played his role well and brought out information needed. Also didn't have any outright error like some do.
RLVG: Good early game disruption. Really set the tone for confusion and Watermeloann as I had wanted. Didn't survive as long as he needed to and seemed to target his Ally Mattzed too much, but still good.
Shifty: Revealing as Teal was not something I agreed with. But given the confusion it went ok. Once he got his win condition I would have liked to see him try to manipulate the votes onto himself and then activate a lynch. Late game was his target and I had expected him to not just hurl his non-green status at them, but as a Host I can't decide everything.
Stealthbomber16: Did alright to detect some things early and lead to the feedback claiming rule being discovered. Short lived.
Superjack: A strong vocal town. Rivaling Darkness for best town. He stole he lance twice, blocked Zekrom many times, and just overall was a good player. He didn't capitalize on the shop like he could have, but I think Superjack was having a lot of fun with this (or so it looked) which I enjoyed.
Toadette: Fucked up early, rip. Came back to war with Frog mostly, then kill Mattzed. Really interesting group of masks worn by Toadette.
Zekrom2802: Not as active as I would have liked but decent night targets and avoided most suspicion.

Town: I think Town could have shit stomp, if i'm honest. And it wasn't setup dependent. I saw SO many scum slips out of the Mafia and Archeologist in the first couple days that I have no idea how RLVG survived as long as he did. I also think Mattzed being read as Town was odd given the situation that he never explained the drug. He was actually playing properly, but I thought that seemed to just be accepted by the Town without a second thought.

Mafia: Mafia did about as expected in terms of their impact and being focused.

Archeologist: Seeing many items come out of this role was really enjoyable. Easily one of my favorite roles i've ever used and would consider using it again. Quite the enjoyable thing.

Watermeloann: You have made a very bad name to yourself.

Overall I'm REALLY happy with the way the game went. I think everyone should be proud of themselves for attempting and completing the gauntlet that was Watermeloan. I don't know that I would host another hidden setup personally, but I would love to play in one and fully encourage others to host them. Easily the most fun i've had hosting.

-vote MattZead Man's Chest

[Toadette]

Why didn't I get a green role card! You and RLVG combined made me anti town :-/

[Firebringer]

I am unvoting.

Truth of the matter is, I didn't watch the game enough to know who was truly playing the best, and I got apathetic to game pretty fast.

I am sorry Slaol for all the hate, but I just don't think our site is meant for a Closed Setup like this.

-vote unvote

[Toadette]

I am unvoting.

Truth of the matter is, I didn't watch the game enough to know who was truly playing the best, and I got apathetic to game pretty fast.

I am sorry Slaol for all the hate, but I just don't think our site is meant for a Closed Setup like this.

-vote unvote

I disagree. Most of the setup was GENIUS. Having to deduce things was a lot of fun.

There were things that took it too far however. Knowing ones alignment would have made a lot of difference for me, at the very least there being a way to find out ones alignment. Aka consistent green role names for example.

The resurrection idea was cool (cause I got to come back) but if there was a way to find out why would have been nice.

The activating the lynch was clever, but turned ugly in the end. I tried to paste a list of 58,000 words at the end but the post rejected it. By the time I whittled it down to six posts, the day ended.

All in all I give the setup a B+. It went too long and was a bit too random. Made it unenjoyable in its final days. Like I said there has to be a line to draw somewhere on the insanity. Win conditions at the least.

[RLVG]

I don't know that I would host another hidden setup personally, but I would love to play in one and fully encourage others to host them.

While my next hosted setup (Happy Fluffy Times) arren't super hidden like this, the next setup after Happy Times will be.
You're free to join.

The hidden setup is already fully written like two months ago.

[Lemonbribe]

-vote DarknessBeard

[RLVG]

While my next hosted setup (Happy Fluffy Times) arren't super hidden like this, the next setup after Happy Times will be.
You're free to join.

The hidden setup is already fully written like two months ago.

Since I pointed this out, which of the mods should I poke regarding the hidden setup, when the time comes?
I intend to get Happy Times first tho.

[Orpz]

I didn't know players wouldn't know their alignments >>

Since I pointed this out, which of the mods should I poke regarding the hidden setup, when the time comes?
I intend to get Happy Times first tho.

I'll review it

[Slaol]

I didn't know players wouldn't know their alignments >>



I'll review it

Honestly other than the intentional nerf to citizen, all others were clear if you look at literally any of my setups ever. Lol

[MattZed]

Can we get a site rule that all S-FMs should have a positive KPN? 10 game days is a little long to resolve an S-FM.

Also, Slaol, in regards to SuperJack "He didn't capitalize on the shop like he could have," he bought a vest that stopped me from winning the game by killing him.

After seeing the setup, I see the revive mechanic DOESN'T have to revive town. I think I'll still stick with my 80-10-15-40 assessment for win chances, though.

I felt bad that Town randomed into 3 Town on the first revive but the balance worked out in the end with a 4-1 at the time of the rule removal. Bringing back scum at that point would have been an auto-town-loss imo.

Even if the two-person revive brought back RLVG and Zekrom, I think town would have lynched them basically right away and still gotten a win. If any town had been revived along with them, it would have benefited town.

The problem with the revive mechanic is that players generally know if they mislynched or not, and without a KPN to pressure moving on, town can just lynch the people who revived as scum and reincorporate the town back into the fold. Lemonbribe in particular being brought back was a HUGE boost to town because she was a confirmed cit (even if she couldn't realize it) and had a gun plus a lynch-resisting vest after Frog died. She thought she needed to solo win, and even with that going on, how were scum going to stop her? Lynch her twice before she shoots them?

[Slaol]

SuperJack had no vest

[MattZed]

SuperJack had no vest

Oh, he beat me in the OoO?

[Slaol]

Your feedback told you exactly what happened

[MattZed]

Your feedback told you exactly what happened

If SuperJack lived because I lost my wand, I'm calling bullshit on this game's outcome.

SUCCESS! You found an artifact!

https://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Crimson_Gem_of_Cyttorak

Becoming the Avatar of Cyttorak you have become the Juggernaut. Along with insane strength, endurance, and durability you have also become unstoppable! No matter what happens to you at night you will succeed at your action. WHAT A FIND!

This was my N0 feedback.

You can't expect me to believe that vests stop lynches, guns can day shoot, but my item that says "No matter what happens to you at night you will succeed at your action." can't stop Darkness from preventing my kill?

[Slaol]

If SuperJack lived because I lost my wand, I'm calling bullshit on this game's outcome.



This was my N0 feedback.

You can't expect me to believe that vests stop lynches, guns can day shoot, but my item that says "No matter what happens to you at night you will succeed at your action." can't stop Darkness from preventing my kill?

I looked at the process of Power Stone vs. Gem of Cyttorak a few times, but as I drew up the Power Stone it overtook your night action, replacing it with the auto-Vet. Darkness didn't prevent a kill, he activated something written to replace your action. Your action, 'Activate Power Stone on DarknessB' went through successfully. Then on the night that you tried to kill Superjack your action was absolutely impossible as your wand didn't exist. It's not that it didn't succeed but rather that it never began.

You can call bullshit all you want, I find that regrettable as I was extremely pained giving you your feedback on the final night, but Darkness also went back in time and retroactively robbed Superjack several times.

Your wand, in the end, never existed. You can't fail or succeed at using something you never had.

Furthermore, I told you your Power Stone overtook your action. I also would like to point out that using the Yellow Hat, or the Kill Button could have easily given you a victory. The yellow hat would have sent Superjack away from you to Curios George, saving your lance. The Kill Button would have 100% killed Lemonbribe giving you a tie break. As well a more assertive use of the House could have lead to a night lynch that would have accelerated the game end. With you being immortal for that lynch.

This wasn't an ending forced upon you. The game just went this way.

[Toadette]

MattZed: "I'm not supposed to be able to be lynched, killed, and any action I take is supposed to succeed no matter what.

Game was OP in favor of town"

wow.

[Slaol]

A word on the Lance.

It was a very nice item, but it was possess-able by literally all but one role in the game. It was immortality, even to modkill, that was within the realm of takable by all but the Clockmaker (sorry Ika)

[MattZed]

I looked at the process of Power Stone vs. Gem of Cyttorak a few times, but as I drew up the Power Stone it overtook your night action, replacing it with the auto-Vet. Darkness didn't prevent a kill, he activated something written to replace your action. Your action, 'Activate Power Stone on DarknessB' went through successfully. Then on the night that you tried to kill Superjack your action was absolutely impossible as your wand didn't exist. It's not that it didn't succeed but rather that it never began.

You can call bullshit all you want, I find that regrettable as I was extremely pained giving you your feedback on the final night, but Darkness also went back in time and retroactively robbed Superjack several times.

Your wand, in the end, never existed. You can't fail or succeed at using something you never had.

But I submitted my action before Darkness was able to go back in time. Even though he's before me in the OoO, I had submitted an action that was valid at the time, so since his going back happened, gamewise, after my submission, it should still go through.

And on the other end, I'm not so sure my "retrieve the wand" should have failed in the past.

[Slaol]

Matt. I <3 you bb and I'm sorry that at the end you felt cheated. If I was pulling for anyone I wanted to see you win it. But everything went as intended on the final night per mechanics. You played a hell of a game by numbers and day presence but if you're wanting to contest it because you lost I have nothing for you.

[Toadette]

A word on the Lance.

It was a very nice item, but it was possess-able by literally all but one role in the game. It was immortality, even to modkill, that was within the realm of takable by all but the Clockmaker (sorry Ika)

Nobody wanted to take it back from Matt because in doing so they would risk dying to Matt's vet ability.

So not only was he unlynchable, immune to death, and guaranteed night action, but also unvisitable. The fact town won was very lucky.

[MattZed]

MattZed: "I'm not supposed to be able to be lynched, killed, and any action I take is supposed to succeed no matter what.

Game was OP in favor of town"

wow.

Two points: Anyone could have stolen the lance. I held onto it as long as I did by threatening to kill anyone who wanted to take it back.

Also, do you disagree with the point that game was townsided, or are you just trying to make a case against me?

[Slaol]

But I submitted my action before Darkness was able to go back in time. Even though he's before me in the OoO, I had submitted an action that was valid at the time, so since his going back happened, gamewise, after my submission, it should still go through.

And on the other end, I'm not so sure my "retrieve the wand" should have failed in the past.

But planning to do it and getting the chance to do it are different. Before you killed Superjack Darkness went back in time and prevented you from getting the wand. This happened by the Power Stone overrighting your action which we did discuss over skype, so this was as intended since you asked my questions about it on Day ~6.

[Toadette]

Two points: Anyone could have stolen the lance. I held onto it as long as I did by threatening to kill anyone who wanted to take it back.

Also, do you disagree with the point that game was townsided, or are you just trying to make a case against me?

The game wasn't town sided at all. I've been making that point all along. And you are tooting your own horn here quite more than you need to be.

[Slaol]

Nobody wanted to take it back from Matt because in doing so they would risk dying to Matt's vet ability.

So not only was he unlynchable, immune to death, and guaranteed night action, but also unvisitable. The fact town won was very lucky.

The Lance came into the game before he was unvisitable. All Superjack needed to do was not claim it. Or have RLVG not have claimed it and MattZed might never have gotten it back. It did go the way of 'Matt was broken', but even still he was defeated.

[Toadette]

The Lance came into the game before he was unvisitable. All Superjack needed to do was not claim it. Or have RLVG not have claimed it and MattZed might never have gotten it back. It did go the way of 'Matt was broken', but even still he was defeated.

And it was very lucky that happened. Had this game ended in Matt winning like I said I would have voted the lance for MVP and you would have 6-7 players complaining about how this game was scum favored vs 1 player complaining he didn't win.

[Slaol]

I don't think game was town sided. The pure existence of the game being hidden makes it hard. Quoting feedback and roles was strong, but RLVG and Matt used it to fake claim to success for some time. Also claiming everything game Matt a chance to take his lance back. Further more the lynch mechanic was hard assisted by the Drug Dealer preventing people from being to activate lynches. If this had been figured out it could have been abused (although that seems a bit difficult).

Matt was the most OP role i've ever had the pleasure of using.
RLVG's witch was supreme.
and Zekrom's Drug Dealer was just really fun

[MattZed]

Toadette, you seem to be missing a few points in assessing how townsided or not the setup is.

Main point: 0 KPN. We were in a 12 player game. By the time I even acquired the lance, I had survived 5 lynches and 1 shot from a town. That's 6 town-controlled kills, 5 of which were town-on-town violence. In any other S-FM, a scum surviving that long wins. Even after that, I doubt Zekrom's lynch would have been on me instead, and I'd speculate that not having the lance wouldn't have redirected Shifty's lynch onto me. That's 5-7 survived lynches that didn't use the lance, depending on how you count it.

The only kill my lance actually directly prevented was the mass lynch, a mechanic made up on the spot that would kill anyone who had even one vote against them. If town hadn't been so apathetic at that point, they should have used it to get everyone except some really reliable town lynched. If I hadn't had the lance at that point, I probably wouldn't have let the masslynch actually go through, although that's something we can't know for certain.

And then aside from that there's the revive mechanic, which I've already explained is quite townsided. You all had very confirmable roles; I went into D10 against someone WHO HAD FLIPPED CIT AND BEEN REVIVED and someone who had been roleblocking the Mafia and directly contributed to taking them down, all while being the strongest town voice. And this was scumsided?

[Slaol]

It wasn't scum sided. It was confusing.

Toad flipped "Citizen that claims to not be town aligned" and then revived to go on to wage war against the other citizen claimer "Because he got a gun and vest." then immediately claim to have a gun and vest after killing him. That's fucking scummy as shit. If the mechanics worked out any other way... for example you using the kill button isntead of the wand, you win man. It wasn't town sided, it wasn't scum sided.

[MattZed]

0 KPN in what turned into an 11v2v1v1 where most every town was a TPR who could relatively confirm themselves and possibly even survive a lynch isn't townsided?

[Slaol]

0 KPN in what turned into an 11v2v1v1 where most every town was a TPR who could relatively confirm themselves and possibly even survive a lynch isn't townsided?

No one could confirm their faction, roles sure, but that didn't dictate anything. No one knew wtf was happening. They just all said they were green. Why didn't everyone just claim green? not hard.

Tailor was town, and claimed to be blue.
Clock Maker is a neutral killer that I used as a name for a Town role.
Donald Trump is a role? that has money for seemingly no reason?
Just claim green and you're in.
They bought RLVG's ridiculos White Washer role, even after the grave was empty because no one had any fucking idea waht was what.

It was a blank canvas so to suggest people could confirm their faction when no one even knew theirs is incorrect.

BB, I love you. You played very well, go take a smoke and a wank and come back to me.

Also, a while ago Poriomania posted a link to stats on an 11v2 game that had a 51% win rate for Mafia.
Adding a neutral benign, a full mafia sided ridiculously op archeologist and the most blank canvas ever and I think the numbers work out totally fine.

[MattZed]

bb 11v2 is only a 51% mafia winrate if they have a night kill. It goes down to 30% if they don't.

[Toadette]

I think MattZed needs to take a deep breath and try to look at this from our shoes. Frog himself stated "I don't think there's any town left and we're all scum" and no one lynched him for the longest time for claiming to not be town. I thought he was a werewolf with me and tried multiple methods of activating werewolf chat.

Again, thanks for that RLVG lol

[MattZed]

I think MattZed needs to take a deep breath and try to look at this from our shoes. Frog himself stated "I don't think there's any town left and we're all scum" and no one lynched him for the longest time for claiming to not be town. I thought he was a werewolf with me and tried multiple methods of activating werewolf chat.

Again, thanks for that RLVG lol

Probably the most useful thing RLVG did was confusing people about their alignments.

It did have the downside that it made me think I needed to kill him to win, though.

[Slaol]

bb 11v2 is only a 51% mafia winrate if they have a night kill. It goes down to 30% if they don't.

You're not wrong about that setup having a kill. But the principle is that without information the alliance is supreme. I doubt it becomes 30% as the 51% is with the Mafia speeding it up and possibly revealing themselves. I think it is play rate that would drop.

So town got more information, but was countered with 2 deception roles, intentionally anti-town information within their information, and the most open claiming landscape ever.

It was winnable by all teams my man. And the 11v3v1 didn't work to shitstomp for Town, but in the end just added to more of why you deserved MVP.

[MattZed]

Oh, I was talking about winrate with random lynches/night kills.

Looking now I see that mafia winrate in 11v2 is more like 70% with a KPN and random lynches.

[ika]

my only disappoint in this game is i didnt get to fuck around with everyone in the OoO

i was so hoping for mass claim and then screw up the OoO as much as i could

[RLVG]

my only disappoint in this game is i didnt get to fuck around with everyone in the OoO

i was so hoping for mass claim and then screw up the OoO as much as i could

I'd do the following : everyone is acting at the same time, except the citizen claimers.

[SuperJack]

my only disappoint in this game is i didnt get to fuck around with everyone in the OoO

i was so hoping for mass claim and then screw up the OoO as much as i could

But you are town. Why you want to fuck it up for everyone?

[RLVG]

But you are town. Why you want to fuck it up for everyone?

Did he even know he was town?

[Stealthbomber16]

You have not seen anything yet. Pass into the iris is almost complete...

[ika]

I'd do the following : everyone is acting at the same time, except the citizen claimers.

That was my first question acutlay, could i have all acitons run simaltaniously

But you are town. Why you want to fuck it up for everyone?

figure how who is town and whos not