What do you call ballanced?

[ika]

So there has been a past thread that kinda touched on this but I think theres more to it.

What is considered balanced? I have played across a good chunk of sites now and there seems to be some difference to it.

On one site they go but the "win rate" (and iirc 60/40 with town favor of 60 is what they say is ballenced)

Here it seems that balanced is the KPN being equaled out with the heals/protects.

So my question is this:

What do your definition of a "balanced" game and why

(this is to be taken seriously and any off-topic post i see will quickly be reported, i would like to have an actual discussion on this)

[RLVG]

Balanced should be when all teams has an equal chance of winning by skill and interaction, or that it has nothing overpowered to break the game in favor of a faction. In addition, the game shouldn't be beaten in a single night unless it's intended by a Jester.

As long there's fairness to the play and nothing absolute biased, I don't mind how advanced a setup, role or faction is.

It's also dependant on how many players is in said setup to have these things considered.

Unfortunately, you cannot balance setups to a player's behavior : One player may break the whole thing, which may happen for either faction. There's also dumb luck.
I'd like to know how we can fix that.

[DarknessB]

I agree with most of RLVG's answer, but I'll add my own color. Balanced means that each team should have an equal chance of winning the game based on its night actions and day behavior / votes. The harder question is proving that something is balanced or not. Short of running the same FM game a larger number of times in order to balance test, it doesn't seem empirically possible with FM, other than examining past data points. Even that is very limited and problematic, however, because each host has their own unique mix of game settings and tweaks so there's never a good apples to apples comparison to make.

In contrast, it's much easier to determine balance in SC2Mafia games because you can run the same game as many times as you want and literally record outcomes if you wanted. Not sure what the FM solution is honestly, because games are so dependent on chance and can't quickly be run. For example, I didn't think Fire's FM game was super unbalanced, but it turned into a total cakewalk by the Town because of horrible luck by the Templar and some lucky guards / blocks by the Town early on.

[Cryptonic]

A balanced game is any game that gets down to 3-4 remaining players once it hits LYLO.

[DarknessB]

Here's the interesting dilemma though -- an unbalanced setup could by luck / skill result in that situation (if the team with the setup advantage plays poorly or the team with the setup disadvantage plays well). Maybe I'm getting too philosophical with this, but just because a game came down to the wire didn't necessarily mean it was because of a well-crafted setup. Likewise, a reasonably good setup could result in a Town or Mafia steamroll with really good or really bad luck by one team. Without being able to repeat games and see multiple outcomes for a given setup, it's hard to say what's balanced or not. I do agree with Cryptonic, however, in terms of what makes a particular game interesting though -- no one wants to see a steamroll (except maybe the players on the winning side of it).

A balanced game is any game that gets down to 3-4 remaining players once it hits LYLO.

[Cryptonic]

Here's the interesting dilemma though -- an unbalanced setup could by luck / skill result in that situation (if the team with the setup advantage plays poorly or the team with the setup disadvantage plays well). Maybe I'm getting too philosophical with this, but just because a game came down to the wire didn't necessarily mean it was because of a well-crafted setup. Likewise, a reasonably good setup could result in a Town or Mafia steamroll with really good or really bad luck by one team. Without being able to repeat games and see multiple outcomes for a given setup, it's hard to say what's balanced or not. I do agree with Cryptonic, however, in terms of what makes a particular game interesting though -- no one wants to see a steamroll (except maybe the players on the winning side of it).

But find a forum mafia game that got to LYLO with more than 4 players left, but the setup was balanced. I doubt it can be done.

[DarknessB]

This is a fair point -- I suppose there could be something with very odd dynamics like multiple teams, a ton of neutrals, or one of the lovers' games where everyone had an alignment plus a hidden ally (either of the same alignment or different), but with a conventional Town vs. Mafia type game, you're probably correct.

But find a forum mafia game that got to LYLO with more than 4 players left, but the setup was balanced. I doubt it can be done.

[Firebringer]

Can't any setup be technically be balanced? Just depends on how badly/good the players play it.

[Cryptonic]

This is a fair point -- I suppose there could be something with very odd dynamics like multiple teams, a ton of neutrals, or one of the lovers' games where everyone had an alignment plus a hidden ally (either of the same alignment or different), but with a conventional Town vs. Mafia type game, you're probably correct.

Yes, in conventional Mafia, with 1 Neutral or more (depending on size of game) would probably be able to be balanced easily.
I am a pretty big believer that special mechanics (like alignment changes, ect) destroy the balance of a game lol.

But yes, games where there are teams that can win together definitely will have a larger group at LYLO.

[DarknessB]

I think the question is: what constitutes a balanced setup on paper (really in the Setup Workshop)? Obviously, games can wildly fluctuate in either direction depending on the quality of the players on each team and blind luck. The point of the question seems to be to eliminate as much bias as possible in the write-up of the setup itself such that both teams have an equal chance of winning based on their Mafia skills / in-game luck.

Can't any setup be technically be balanced? Just depends on how badly/good the players play it.

[Cryptonic]

Can't any setup be technically be balanced? Just depends on how badly/good the players play it.

Not really.
Vigilante x7 v Mafioso x1

Odds are that game is ending n1, regardless of how good the Mafioso is.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I read the original mafia game, it did talk the reason why the game is balance 9 town and 3 mafia with logic: 3-1 ratio, so each 3 town mafia gain 1 more member. I still believe in that balance logic, town have 33% chance to random or guess the mafia/scum

[Firebringer]

Thats the thing though, you can't objectively take those things out. They comprise more than half the game. The player interactions with each other.

You can balance out simple setups easier than you can more complicated setups. The more complicated the setup the more wildly it will vary in how it could play out.

Simple setups can only go in a few different directions.

Balanced is like trying to achieve "perfection" its a nice thought. It should still be attempted, but it just isn't achievable.

You just can't balance out how the players themselves will play the setup.

[Firebringer]

Not really.
Vigilante x7 v Mafioso x1

Odds are that game is ending n1, regardless of how good the Mafioso is.

You could still get to LYLO in that situation. Which is what you use to define balance.

[Cryptonic]

I read the original mafia game, it did talk the reason why the game is balance 9 town and 3 mafia with logic: 3-1 ratio, so each 3 town mafia gain 1 more member. I still believe in that balance logic, town have 33% chance to random or guess the mafia/scum

I don't think so. I am pretty sure I could see a 9 Cit v 1 Mafioso win easily. Would only take 4 days, too.

[Cryptonic]

You could still get to LYLO in that situation. Which is what you use to define balance.

I never said if it CAN get to 3 player LYLO, I said it WILL get it to LYLO.

Host that game 100 times and see how many times it reaches 3 player LYLO.


ANY setup CAN get to 3 player LYLO.

[BananaCucho]

Fire, balanced means each team has an equal chance of winning.

Your setup gave cult no chance. 0 chance, even with our mess up with Orpz

[Yukitaka Oni]

I don't think so. I am pretty sure I could see a 9 Cit v 1 Mafioso win easily. Would only take 4 days, too.

If 9 town then 3 mafia

[Cryptonic]

If 9 town then 3 mafia

9 Town v 1 Mafia, Mafia still has a fair chance of winning.
I believe the most I've seen on any site was 1 Mafioso vs 13 Citizen and Mafioso won.

[Yukitaka Oni]

9 Town v 1 Mafia, Mafia still has a fair chance of winning.
I believe the most I've seen on any site was 1 Mafioso vs 13 Citizen and Mafioso won.

I do remember the original mafia game did talk about power role: doctor, sheriff must have to be in game too

[Firebringer]

Are you stupid or trolling?

Both. Stop focusing on it, it hurts my feelings.

Back on topic:
I think you can't objectively say any setup is perfectly balanced, it will swing one way or another. Like you said Cryptonic just because it can reach LYLO doesn't mean it is balanced, but neither does i t mean if it does because that is just another possibility in setups. You can have games where setups generally go into that direction but then the actual game doesn't go in that fashion.

[Cryptonic]

Both. Stop focusing on it, it hurts my feelings.

Back on topic:
I think you can't objectively say any setup is perfectly balanced, it will swing one way or another. Like you said Cryptonic just because it can reach LYLO doesn't mean it is balanced, but neither does i t mean if it does because that is just another possibility in setups. You can have games where setups generally go into that direction but then the actual game doesn't go in that fashion.

No game is "perfectly" balanced. But there is a difference between balanced and broken.
Honestly, if you can rolecall d1, then the setup isn't balanced.

And let me rephrase my statement. If a setup reaches 3 players LYLO a majority of the time that setup is hosted, it is balanced.

[ika]

Ok if this becomes anohter fire hate thread i will jsut lock it and have crypt/orpz delet/infract posts that are being like that.

I have my own imput but i have stuff to do so i will give my own later

[Orpz]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...e-on-site-ever

Worth the read

[Slaol]

Balance 101.

Start with

Mafioso
Mafioso
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Never add to Town unless it is in response to a buff given to non-town.

[Yayap]

Balancing numbers is easy to get a reasonable lylo.. Balancing Power Roles on both (or more) sides to prevent early role calls and steam rolls is a fine art. Especially detection roles, a balanced game should have a decent chance of mislynching without guarantying a victory after a few. If town never mislynches and still looses, then its unbalanced... and if town always has a detection role guilty result each day, then again, still unbalanced. The game should be able to proceed with a margin of error for both sides without the game steamrolling. There should always be risk involved in role claiming. Too many healing roles that minimize risk makes it very hard for mafia to deal with detection roles which in turn detects more mafia...