Auto-Execute Doctor Claimers?

[DarknessB]

Several different players have told me / demonstrated in game that when they are Jailor, they will automatically execute any jailed player claiming Doctor because that tends to be the lie of choice for scum. To me, this seems a bit reckless -- in fact, I was in a game last night where the Jailor executed 2 Doctors using this strategy and this ended up costing the Town the game.

Also, if players continue to do this, then I would imagine scum will just change their lie to some other Town role, which will result in more actual Doctors being executed.

Would be curious to get everyone's thoughts on this.

[SuperJack]

Depends on the players really. I always claim mayor.

[thedougler]

I tend to claim mayor too. In most cases the jailor usually goes AFK and forgets about me, gets killed, or just takes my word for it. It's usually pretty easy for me to take them out afterwards if I'm a killing role, and in 90% of cases they didn't leave my claim in their lw. Of course, you are usually fucked if a marshall reveals later, but it's better than getting taken out by jailor on n1.

[Balthy]

Randoming is almost always wrong in my opinion. You will be wrong most of the time if you execute all the Doctor claims. When you aren't sure at 80% that someone is evil, you should not kill him. I lost countless games as a Town just because the Jailor was a randomer...

[Firebringer]

Mayor is such a bad claim to make in jail lol. Put that in your last will and when and if he dies, you look extremely bad if you aren't mayor.

I often do execute Doctor claims especially during first jail. This is because a few reasons:
1) One of easiest roles to get away with
2) A lot of people claim it
3) It takes very little in actual defense/proof

I will probably do it less in future, but very few players claim doctor these days when I am jailor. I find them claiming investigator roles more often and I just record it.

[Cryptonic]

I claim Mayor often in jail, If I can't confirm myself. Most players are fucking idiots and will execute a Doc/Sheriff claim n1.
Claim Mayor and they just tell you to reveal the next day. Then just lynch every day and you're fine lol.

[Firebringer]

I claim Mayor often in jail, If I can't confirm myself. Most players are fucking idiots and will execute a Doc/Sheriff claim n1.
Claim Mayor and they just tell you to reveal the next day. Then just lynch every day and you're fine lol.

I have only seen this work once and it was because the jailor died without giving a lw. Every other time ive seen someone try it I just tell town "Hey this guy claimed mayor and I told him to reveal and he isn't"

[Cryptonic]

I have only seen this work once and it was because the jailor died without giving a lw. Every other time ive seen someone try it I just tell town "Hey this guy claimed mayor and I told him to reveal and he isn't"

Doesn't matter if Jailor gives a last will, tbh. By the time this happens, you will likely have information to help confirm your true role. You just explain that you claimed Mayor to evade jailor. If you can't prove yourself, as least you survived the game and can leave a LW instead of dying N1 to an idiot jailor who doesn't believe a roleclaim. If you're doc and claim jailor, at least you spent the rest of the game healing people; if you're sheriff, you can leave a lw saying who is ns; ect.

That's really dumb to do lol. You say you execute Doctor claimers n1. So, If I'm Doctor, I should claim Doctor and let you kill me? Or, If I claim Mayor, you'll lynch me as Doctor and out yourself as Jailor? Both your way of thinking seems harmful to town when you're Jailor lol.

[Firebringer]

Doesn't matter if Jailor gives a last will, tbh. By the time this happens, you will likely have information to help confirm your true role. You just explain that you claimed Mayor to evade jailor. If you can't prove yourself, as least you survived the game and can leave a LW instead of dying N1 to an idiot jailor who doesn't believe a roleclaim. If you're doc and claim jailor, at least you spent the rest of the game healing people; if you're sheriff, you can leave a lw saying who is ns; ect.

That's really dumb to do lol. You say you execute Doctor claimers n1. So, If I'm Doctor, I should claim Doctor and let you kill me? Or, If I claim Mayor, you'll lynch me as Doctor and out yourself as Jailor? Both your way of thinking seems harmful to town when you're Jailor lol.

Its hit or miss sometimes when it comes to doctors. Seems to work 2/3 of the time for me though so until it starts working only 1/3 of the time not going to change my policy.

[BananaCucho]

I hit execute no matter who I jail. Whether I cancel or not at last second depends more on how they react to thinking they are dead than the claim

[MasterNinja]

everyone is a a different player man. claiming doc is usually exed bcus he prob gives no lw or info at all.

[DarknessB]

For what it's worth, half of the Doctor executions I've seen have been on Night 1 where there was no opportunity for the Doctor to do anything.

everyone is a a different player man. claiming doc is usually exed bcus he prob gives no lw or info at all.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I hit execute no matter who I jail. Whether I cancel or not at last second depends more on how they react to thinking they are dead than the claim

Please do this to all newbie in the town before they are a puppets of mafia/traid. Put them out of misery please

[SparkNuts]

I hit execute no matter who I jail. Whether I cancel or not at last second depends more on how they react to thinking they are dead than the claim

Lol this is exactly what I do as jailor. People give away more when they think they are gonna die already.

[Firebringer]

Lol this is exactly what I do as jailor. People give away more when they think they are gonna die already.

Yell at the jailor, accuse them of being a kidnapper/informant and if they deny being a kidnapper/informant tell them that they put in their last will they told you their last will and that you are failor.

Repeat failor several times.

They always take off execute.

[bwcPorscha]

Yeah I had somebody execute me once because of how I reacted when they jailed me and said literally nothing. I was town, but I didn't know how to answer to a jailor who didn't speak, so I didn't say much. Afterwards they said that they can usually tell what kind of role somebody is based on how they respond to his lack of response. So now I just say my role as fast as my lil fingers will go and don't say much other than " " if they press execute. Half the time they just retract their execute anyway.

[MasterNinja]

how about just learn to jail someone and see if players die or not, thats only way to not be a big ass failor at the early nights

[BananaCucho]

how about just learn to jail someone and see if players die or not, thats only way to not be a big ass failor at the early nights

I get jailed and attacked n1 frequently. They don't believe I was attacked and execute me n2. That logic can give you a lead but relying on that only is broken logic.

[Mentar]

I get jailed and attacked n1 frequently. They don't believe I was attacked and execute me n2. That logic can give you a lead but relying on that only is broken logic.

best thing to do in that case really is to just rejail on night 2.

If they're the killing role then you've prevented 2 kills and can continue blocking his kills for as long as you please buying the rest of town plenty of extra days to find the other evils, leave the info in your lw so they can lynch him if you get killed by the other killer in the game.

If he's not the killer he's unlikely to be targeted again after being immune the 1st time, and there'll likely be a kill, confirming he's not the killer and you avoid lynching someone who's likely to be town.

[yzb25]

Definitely an example of townies trying to metagame making the overall metagame of mafia harder on the townies. Jailors can no longer actually find doctors, and, as an evil, I never really have to think about what I claim in jail during the early nights because I was worried about a failor / kidnapper! So I claimed lookout to avoid getting executed by either, even though I have no information at all and have now switched to a doctor claim! It's rather ironic, because these pseudo-statisticians often think that they are netting long-term wins, rather than long-term losses. (Making things harder for the town is a detriment to your overall winrate, as you are mostly town.)

In my view, people approach jailor from the wrong perspective. They should relax their claimant, insist that they won't be executed for "telling the truth about their shitty role" (as well as insisting you won't put their role in your lw and risk their life). That way, the mayors and lookouts say "lol no I actually am lookout/mayor", you find the doctors, and you put people at ease - making them far more likely to give you info.

And, if they truly are evil, by offering them the chance to make an easier claim, you might get lucky and they might say "Yeah, I'm actually citizen but I was scared of execution." That would make a good addition to the last will.

Overall though, this kind of metagaming just tends to make the playing experience, and the state of your winrate itself, worse in the long term. Aim for the strategy that allows you to win as much as possible when you play with top skill, rather the one that allows you to win as much as possible when you play with top chance.

[MasterNinja]

best thing to do in that case really is to just rejail on night 2.

If they're the killing role then you've prevented 2 kills and can continue blocking his kills for as long as you please buying the rest of town plenty of extra days to find the other evils, leave the info in your lw so they can lynch him if you get killed by the other killer in the game.

If he's not the killer he's unlikely to be targeted again after being immune the 1st time, and there'll likely be a kill, confirming he's not the killer and you avoid lynching someone who's likely to be town.

wonder who doesn't know that

[Bigtalon]

Mayor is such a bad claim to make in jail lol. Put that in your last will and when and if he dies, you look extremely bad if you aren't mayor.

I often do execute Doctor claims especially during first jail. This is because a few reasons:
1) One of easiest roles to get away with
2) A lot of people claim it
3) It takes very little in actual defense/proof

I will probably do it less in future, but very few players claim doctor these days when I am jailor. I find them claiming investigator roles more often and I just record it.

See what I do, is when I go into jail I just say Role? and if they say Doctor, I say well shit good for me, Hit the Execute button, and there like WTF ? I'm like you just got kidnapped hoe!! Then they normally tell me there real role, if they stick to doctor I normally let them live.

[Cryptonic]

One time I jailed someone and they claimed Doctor.

So I was like:
"He claimed Doctor, should I execute him?"
"OK."
*Execute*
"Sorry bra, Kidnapper"

and he was like "Lol you're not kidnapper.."
so I didn't cancel my execution and he flipped GF.

Can easily tell by reactions to claiming Kidnapper if the person is Town or not, imo. Some Mafia are decent at feigning surprised lol. But I find Mafia members will often be like "You're Kidnapper!!" before I even have a chance to claim it.

[Firebringer]

Any evil trying to trick a town member should play along.

The example given shows a clearly bad Godfather.

I have had players try to trick me like this. I was Judge in a game yesterday, I was put on stand during day said "I am crier" got innoed then that night put in jail.
The jailor feigned being a kidnapper, saying things like
"I want your real role"
Me: I told you guys during the day I am crier.
"Wrong answer"
Puts execute on.
"You have on more chance to give me your real role?"
Me: You want me to say I am judge? Cause I am crier. And you wasted your execute "kidnapper"
Takes the execute off.

He was later killed and I won with the mafia.


Point is, always assume people are playing mind games with you, and then try to turn it around on them by giving them what they want to hear.

[Cryptonic]

I kill anybody that calls me a Kidnapper. I swear, town never calls someone kidnapper in jail lol.

[Mentar]

I kill anybody that calls me a Kidnapper. I swear, town never calls someone kidnapper in jail lol.

I've gotten many people to cancel executes by calling them a kidnapper . granted i was evil a few of those times but not always .

it usually goes.

"detective/doctor/whatever"
"executes*"
"So you're a kidnapper then "
"unexecutes*"

[Water]

Several different players have told me / demonstrated in game that when they are Jailor, they will automatically execute any jailed player claiming Doctor because that tends to be the lie of choice for scum. To me, this seems a bit reckless -- in fact, I was in a game last night where the Jailor executed 2 Doctors using this strategy and this ended up costing the Town the game.

Also, if players continue to do this, then I would imagine scum will just change their lie to some other Town role, which will result in more actual Doctors being executed.

Would be curious to get everyone's thoughts on this.

I would say it's a valid strategy.

If we presume that most baddies claim doctor, then executing anyone who claims doctor would always be better. Sometimes you will execute the doctor, but you will also get baddies as well. However, this would only work if baddies ACTUALLY claim doc enough so that it's about a 50% chance of it being a baddie.

Remember, to always do a cost-risk-benefit analysis. If it was a confirmable role, such as mayor, BD, jailor, veteran, etc, then I would agree that it is reckless.




As for the concern regarding the changing metagaming (baddies claiming other roles, resulting in an alleged doctor having a lower % of being an actual baddie), I think it may deviate, but not by so much.

The doctor is special because it's difficult to actually prove. The only real way to confirm a doctor is after a target is attacked. The other roles do not have this problem... let me go down the list:

crier/marshall/mayor/bd/vigi are obvious because they can confirm with a direct action.

Vet: Because many people are visited, either good or bad, veteran is often easily confirmed. You just have to call it out early, and a hapless player is bound to target you eventually.

LO/DET: I think these are more confirmable than sheriff because it is generally difficult to say who visited what.
Invest: also harder to fabricate, but i think lots of experienced baddies claim invest because they can claim they investigated dead people, or claim trespassing for alleged investigators.


Jailor/Escort: these are easily confirmable but may have a triad counterpart.
Sheriff: This probably is another role that many triad claims because it's so easy to fabricate the LW.


Being a grandmaster protoss, I believe that if the metagaming were to shift because of automatic executions for doc claims, it would probably go towards sheriff claims. Most players aren't good, too lazy, or too inexperienced to get away with investigator claims.

Actual interrogators and consorts may claim jailor/escorts, but is too risky to execute them on a whim because generally, based on behavior (like blocking a single person 5 nights in a row after he reveals he's investi), we know if there is interrogator and consort.


So in conclusion, I think we should not only auto-execute doctors, but also sheriffs and investigators as well (especially if they're colored or has a cool character/avatar). People will always auto-execute survivor/jester/exe claims, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Firebringer]

(especially if they're colored or has a cool character/avatar)

You had me until this comment, whats your reasoning behind this?

The rest makes complete sense, although numbers probably have to be actually tested. The reasoning seems good. I think you might be over analyzing it a bit.

I wouldn't auto execute investigators because they are helpful for finding bad guys, doctors are useful for saving town but the chances they will heal someone on first few nights is rare.

[Cryptonic]

Two most common claims for Scum currently:
#1: BG
#2: Veteran

Doctor used to be #1

[AppleyNO]

You had me until this comment, whats your reasoning behind this?

The rest makes complete sense, although numbers probably have to be actually tested. The reasoning seems good. I think you might be over analyzing it a bit.

I wouldn't auto execute investigators because they are helpful for finding bad guys, doctors are useful for saving town but the chances they will heal someone on first few nights is rare.

More points = more games = more experienced

[Firebringer]

More points = more games = more experienced

So more experienced players = Insta lynched?

Gotcha.

[Bigtalon]

oMG I just had the funniest game as Jailor, So I jailed the "GF," He goes, I am doctor, I said well that's good because I am the kidnapper, Hes like WAIT, why did you jail me I'm the GF you faggot... lol So I execute him... What was he ??!?!? The GodFather ROFL!!!!! What an idiot

[AppleyNO]

So more experienced players = Insta lynched?

Gotcha.

Nah dude, he said that experienced players who claim invest could have a higher chance of lying because he's played the game a bunch. Colored named and models indicated a high amount of points, and you only get a high about of points from a lot of played games.

[Water]

You had me until this comment, whats your reasoning behind this?

The rest makes complete sense, although numbers probably have to be actually tested. The reasoning seems good. I think you might be over analyzing it a bit.

I wouldn't auto execute investigators because they are helpful for finding bad guys, doctors are useful for saving town but the chances they will heal someone on first few nights is rare.

I died way too many times to lying scum claiming investi. So maybe it's a personal thing.


I also think a viable strategy, which I wish turns meta, is to get the BG/DOC to heal the jailor at all times, then put in LW something like, "if i die, then kill 3 because he said he'd heal me"

[Mentar]

I died way too many times to lying scum claiming investi. So maybe it's a personal thing.

Yeah invest roles are easier than a lot of people think to fake claim. Newbies claim doc because it's easy to make up a lw for it, but invests are actually fairly easy to fake a lw for too. Detective lws can be pieced together from what people have idly mentioned happening to them during the game, that's why I'm always wary of invest lws that contain things that people have let slip on previous days, it's not really new information. And having gotten away with claiming invest earlier makes it easier to convince town to lynch someone later on the game, like when the real invest tries to claim :P