Day II: Fires of War

[FM Liliana Vess]

Also what do you mean by "claimed feedback" for I recall claiming no such thing?

[FM Domri Rade]

Also what do you mean by "claimed feedback" for I recall claiming no such thing?

Did something happen to you in the dark of night?

[FM Parcher]

Nice table, but it's slightly off. Ral zerek somehow ended up in Parcher's row. Still quite useful though.

I've posted Ral Zerek times, actually

[FM Jace Beleren]

I have returned.

[FM Baltrice]

Hello.

[FM Domri Rade]

I have returned.

How do you see Elspeth? Is she of the dark or of the light?

[FM Baltrice]

How do you see Elspeth? Is she of the dark or of the light?

Dark.
It is illogical for town to gambit witch.

[FM Domri Rade]

Dark.
It is illogical for town to gambit witch.

How should the light handle her?

[FM Jace Beleren]

So. A Citizen decides its a good idea to claim Witch to get the scum to stay away from her, even though she is a Citizen. A Citizen I would think would want to have the scum target them, while a PR would do the Witch claim to stay alive, all a Citizen does is drag PRs to themselves to see if they really are a Witch. I do not like this character.

I doubt she is scum however, as she would likely would have been checked and a scum wouldn't want to be checked.

[FM Domri Rade]

So. A Citizen decides its a good idea to claim Witch to get the scum to stay away from her, even though she is a Citizen. A Citizen I would think would want to have the scum target them, while a PR would do the Witch claim to stay alive, all a Citizen does is drag PRs to themselves to see if they really are a Witch. I do not like this character.

I doubt she is scum however, as she would likely would have been checked and a scum wouldn't want to be checked.

Same question. How should the light handle her?

[FM Dack Fayden]

This is still a worse plan that having a Jailor handle Elspeth and lynching Glissa. Why are you so set on seeing Elspeth lynched and not killed in some other way? I find this very odd.

Going with your new proposed plan means:
-Priest target is exposed
-No mason conversion
-Escort target is exposed (And we do not even know if we have an escort)
-Glissa could be Sasha and not be killed at all wasting a day

This is not logical at all. I have you pegged as a very intelligent player and your lines of logic trying to put Elspeth on a town lynch is setting off alarms for me. Can you justify why you are pushing so hard for this in spite of the fact better plans have been proposed?

Elspeth was self-proclaimed non-town. I wanted to put pressure on her with the threat of lynch since everybody else just wanted to ignore her. In any case, her retraction of the witch claim and current citizen claim as well as people's reactions to the whole ordeal has proved to be quite enlightening for me. Although I still have questions, I find myself with more information than before.

Since it looks like we will lynch Glissa today, do you still think Elspeth should be jailed/shot at night? Do you buy Elspeth's gambit?

[FM Jace Beleren]

Same question. How should the light handle her?

Possibly a kill later. I'm not entirely sure. She might be a Jester, she might be a Citizen.

[FM Joseph Bertrand]

I think we can hold off a day on miss witch. Maybe we'll geta higher priority target tomorrow.

Though someone did day she was the beast.

[FM Domri Rade]

Elspeth should be subject to the light of investigation at night. She is clearly not a citizen. I will not check her because my checks will not illuminate what needs to be known.

[FM Domri Rade]

Elspeth should be subject to the light of investigation at night. She is clearly not a citizen. I will not check her because my checks will not illuminate what needs to be known.

Are there thoughts, concerns, or issues with this plan? Is it a plan of the light or of the dark?

[FM Tessebik]

Are there thoughts, concerns, or issues with this plan? Is it a plan of the light or of the dark?

I do not approve of this plan: I think she's either a citizen as she says, Cole McGrath, or the Soul of the Beast, and they all appear in the same investigation pairing.

[FM Baltrice]

You could just kill her. Anyone who makes a gambit to claim scum and then retracts it to claim citizen has to be full of shit

[FM Tibalt]

Elspeth was self-proclaimed non-town. I wanted to put pressure on her with the threat of lynch since everybody else just wanted to ignore her. In any case, her retraction of the witch claim and current citizen claim as well as people's reactions to the whole ordeal has proved to be quite enlightening for me. Although I still have questions, I find myself with more information than before.

Since it looks like we will lynch Glissa today, do you still think Elspeth should be jailed/shot at night? Do you buy Elspeth's gambit?

I find myself having trouble telling the difference between poor playing and scummy playing sometimes. With this said lets take a look at his intentions behind his actions. As that this is what we need to figure out in order to best handle the situation.

Possible reasons for claiming witch:
1. Avoid being killed at night from non-town.
2. Getting attention in day chat
3. Hide in plain site for giggles when you win as witch
4. Trolling for lolz

1. Is his defense. Its the only bit of sense that could be used to say 'This was an intentional and logical decision'.
What I take away from this is how people lie. People generally mix truth with their lies to make them more believable. This is because when you tell a lie you ask yourself 'Can this make sense, Is this something believable'. People have to rationalize the lie to themselves to something they would believe while putting themselves in another players shoes. Unfortunately they still have information on themselves that they can unintentionally take into account. It takes a very deliberate thought process to exclude this information. With that said:
A- I find it very notable that this player chose to say 'This was a logical move' as opposed to going with 'I was just trolling guyz, chill brah'. For this reason I trust that this was in no way trolling and was a very planned move. The direction he defended himself in suggests both planning and backtracking.
B- After dropping the witch guise this player was questioned on his logic. He did not defend his logic. He did not clarify his thought process. He stayed vague. I believe this relates to confidence. A town player would be confident. 'Go ahead and do whatever you want. I am town and you will realize it one way or another'. The lack of this confidence was manifested in his indirect manner of defense. This suggests that either he is not putting much thought at all into his moves (More specifically, claiming witch) or he did not anticipate the reaction from the town and is flustered. He is unable to regain control of the position he has put himself in and has claimed a role that can not really be verified.
C- I am a bit put off by his lack of desperation. This would speak for his claim of being town or at least showing a bit of apathy in what happens to him. This makes me question both the potential for him being a TPR floating as a witch to stay alive as well as a highly valued role like 'The soul of the beast'. Maybe he has an ace up his sleeve that he is holding on to that can change his situation.

2. Extremely doubtful. I would say that this was not at all what he wanted to happen from how he has handled the situation. Here and there he has made a move or two but they have been illogical and appeared to be hip shot actions.

3. For reasons from 1- No. 100% not the case.

4. Same as 3

With all that said, as previously stated I am a big fan of a jailor handling this player at night. If he has some ace up his sleeve he can reveal it to the jailor. If he dosn't he can be executed and if he flips cit the blame is on him for pulling such a foolish gambit. My belief is that he will either flip Jester or some variation of scum.

Just to throw it out there I think any player in the game that wanted to avoid being attacked by revealing some role would go and claim survivor.


Back to Dack
My question to you was 'Why did you lobby so hard to have this player lynched as opposed to killed at night'. Your arguments did not seem logical and I have a feeling that it was intentionally so. I find it odd that you answered the way that you did and would ask again for a more direct answer.

[FM Tibalt]

L5, 15 hours until days end.


I made another error in the post above.

5. He was being truthful

I wont go into detail about this because I do not care about it. But there it is.

[FM Jace Beleren]

L5, 15 hours until days end.


I made another error in the post above.

5. He was being truthful

I wont go into detail about this because I do not care about it. But there it is.

Then we have fifteen hours more to discuss.

Who else do you believe to be scum?

[FM Garruk Wildspeaker]

Aren't we all scums? We are red and all.

[FM Jace Beleren]

Aren't we all scums? We are red and all.

Please be serious.

[FM Domri Rade]

-vote FM Glissa Sunseeker

The light of conversation dims. If there is more to be said, let it be said. I have said what I wish to say today.

[FM Dack Fayden]

My question to you was 'Why did you lobby so hard to have this player lynched as opposed to killed at night'. Your arguments did not seem logical and I have a feeling that it was intentionally so. I find it odd that you answered the way that you did and would ask again for a more direct answer.

I simply wanted to provide a counter train so I could have analysis on who sticks on Glissa, and who can be persuaded to jump to Elspeth. What about my arguments were not logical? Please point out these things because I do think there is a good argument for lynching Elspeth. These are some reasons why I started the Elspeth train and lobbied hard for it:

1. Scum has no incentive to kill a witch claimer whereas there is slightly more incentive for them to kill a reaper that they cannot win with.

2. Town has no need to make such a blatantly anti-town lie. Townspeople should be truthful and cooperative in order to solve the puzzle of FM.

3. Depending on the jailor/vigilante to kill Elspeth supposes that the jailor/vigilante are not afk and will cooperate. I would have expected the confirmed vigilante to shoot at Elspeth last night, and I'm not sure why that didn't happen.
3.a. The priest could easily take care of a reaper suspect
3.b. The jailor/vigilante have limited kills

4. So I'm supposing that if the vigilante was not afk, he might have tried to shoot Elspeth last night. I was pressuring Elspeth to try to see if this might be the case (i.e. if anyone[vigilante] would support my Elspeth lynch). I don't believe that Nicol Bolas is a vigilante who tried to shoot a night immune Elspeth, so I'm pretty sure we can rule out the scenario that Elspeth was shot last night but was night immune.

[FM Dack Fayden]

I think that given Glissa's admittance of being scum, the sheriff results on her, and the state of the vote count, I am completely fine casting my vote for Glissa. However I do believe that my counter train was well thought out both in terms of if Elspeth was lynched instead of Glissa and in terms of generating information.

Any further questions?

I would hope that people won't hammer at least for another 8 hours or so because in my opinion there is still much discussion to be had.

[FM Chandra Nalaar]

I think that given Glissa's admittance of being scum

Where?

there is still much discussion to be had.

Like what?

[FM Chandra Nalaar]

We are bird buddies btw

[FM Glissa Sunseeker]

If you don't mind, I'd like to spit some bars before I have to leave this world.

Fuck a beat I go accapella
Fuck a papa doc, fuck a clock, fuck a trailer, fuck everybody
Fuck y'all if you doubt me
I'm a piece of fuckin white trash I say it proudly
Fuck this battle I don't wanna win, I'm outtie
Here -- tell these people something they dont know about me

[FM Jace Beleren]

We are bird buddies btw

Are you saying you are scum buddies with him?

[FM Chandra Nalaar]

wat.

No. Look at out pics.

[FM Jace Beleren]

wat.

No. Look at out pics.

Perhaps that last post was a subtle code you are giving him?

[FM Glissa Sunseeker]

Perhaps that last post was a subtle code you are giving him?

Oh yes, I like this train of thought.

[FM Jace Beleren]

Oh yes, I like this train of thought.

One must think of every possibility...

[FM Dack Fayden]

Where?

Here:

That's obviously what I want to do because, if you still haven't read my post and realized what I said: I ain't no medic. Dunno if I really had to spell that out to you. I want to take information to my grave. Not sure if there would be any scum role which would want to publicly give out information for everyone to see.

But man, this is going to be fun.

Let me spell out the events of the day pertaining to Glissa for y'all:
1. Domri claims sheriff with Glissa as a Reaper.
2. Glissa claims doctor with something around 5 votes on her.
3. Votes pile on Glissa
4. Tibalt tells Glissa if she's actually town she should be posting reads for us once she flips town.
5. Glissa says she is not a medic and wants to take information to her grave, like all scum (see quote).

Like what?

1. People's thoughts on the day's events.
2. I'm not caught up on notes, and after notes I might have more questions for people or things to post to make sure people didn't miss them (apparently like Glissa's admission of being scum).
3. I want Tibalt to respond to my post.
4. Give jailor time to jail. Maybe he comes on near the end of day and needs time to react to the impending lynch target.

We are bird buddies btw

Casual buddying noted.

Ok bird buddy, can you give me a list of your three scummiest people (excluding Elspeth and Glissa) and why.

[FM Chandra Nalaar]

I think FM Ajani Goldmane is scum because he's worried about the soul of the beast more than scum. I think Baltrice i sscum because he talks to much. And I think FM Garruk Wildspeaker is scum because he keeps saying neutral things and nobody questions him.

[FM Chandra Nalaar]

Perhaps that last post was a subtle code you are giving him?

How subtle is HEY WE ARE BIRD BUDDIES. Do you think we are mafia together and I wanted to remind him we'll get to talk tonight?

[FM Jace Beleren]

I think FM Ajani Goldmane is scum because he's worried about the soul of the beast more than scum. I think Baltrice i sscum because he talks to much. And I think FM Garruk Wildspeaker is scum because he keeps saying neutral things and nobody questions him.

What the fuck?

Just what the fuck?

[FM Glissa Sunseeker]

How subtle is HEY WE ARE BIRD BUDDIES. Do you think we are mafia together and I wanted to remind him we'll get to talk tonight?

It's subtle because it doesn't stand out too much.

[FM Jace Beleren]

How subtle is HEY WE ARE BIRD BUDDIES. Do you think we are mafia together and I wanted to remind him we'll get to talk tonight?

It could be something like a consig code. Even though that would be a bad role to pick considering its power, yet from what I can tell I wouldn't be surprised if you chose it.

[FM Chandra Nalaar]

I didn't get to pick me role. Did you?

[FM Glissa Sunseeker]

I didn't get to pick me role. Did you?

I did.

[FM Jace Beleren]

I didn't get to pick me role. Did you?

Nope.

But how can I know you aren't lying? You seem to not really be contributing.

[FM Dack Fayden]

What the fuck?

Just what the fuck?

Can you explain this? Chandra is giving three scummy players names and why and you attempt to belittle her list without anything substantial.

[FM Baltrice]

Can you explain this? Chandra is giving three scummy players names and why and you attempt to belittle her list without anything substantial.

I think he scoffed at her list because of the reasons she gave.

[FM Jace Beleren]

Can you explain this? Chandra is giving three scummy players names and why and you attempt to belittle her list without anything substantial.

The reasons as to why he thinks they are. Talking too much makes you scum. Yes that is perfectly logical. Just because someone doesn't get questioned by others doesn't make them scum. Also, although other scum are very dangerous, the Beast could possibly be something that could kill the game for the town.

[FM Dack Fayden]

I think he scoffed at her list because of the reasons she gave.

given recent developments, what are your reads on Chandra and Jace?

[FM Kiora Atua]

Greetings everyone. I am very sorry for my inactivity, as it is more representative of the difficulty with finding Internet access (as I am traveling in another country) than my desire in posting.

I have no feedback to report.

I will also reread the day's posts and give my own opinions, as best as is possible via smartphone.

One thing I would like to preemptively say is that scum teams typically have at least 1 player jockeying for the mantle of town leader. With 2 simultaneous scum teams, I find it high likely that at least a few of the town leaders that seem experienced may in fact be swaying the overall views of the town. This is directed more at less experienced players, so be wary of subtle derails etc.

[FM Kiora Atua]

To the witch claim, I believe two things:

Early claims revealed without external pressure/reasoning are always measured efforts. I do not believe the witch claim was true, but it was definitely measured, and I agree strongly with tibalt 's reasoning and conclusions. Townpoints to him!
Secondly, if we can conclude anything, it is that the true role is not of a witch. I'm not too sure I believe the city claim. I don't see it as a useful fake claim as mafia either (leaving neutrals or town pr as possibilities...note witch pairing fits with other neutrals!)

I do not believe in strictly directing town prs, especially this early in the game. Jailer should target whoever they deem the best choice for captor, but this is nonetheless 1 viable choice.

[FM Tibalt]

Greetings everyone. I am very sorry for my inactivity, as it is more representative of the difficulty with finding Internet access (as I am traveling in another country) than my desire in posting.

I have no feedback to report.

I will also reread the day's posts and give my own opinions, as best as is possible via smartphone.

One thing I would like to preemptively say is that scum teams typically have at least 1 player jockeying for the mantle of town leader. With 2 simultaneous scum teams, I find it high likely that at least a few of the town leaders that seem experienced may in fact be swaying the overall views of the town. This is directed more at less experienced players, so be wary of subtle derails etc.

I 100% Support this line of thought. I believe it to be very likely that the more skilled players would be given scum roles. (Refer to every FM ever)

[FM Kiora Atua]

I do think domri was successfully appearing townish up to his report reveal (at least to me), and I think the glissa lynch will reveal the most information to us today. Additionally her defense began scummy (as another player mentioned, the easiest scum role claims are citizen and doctor) and devolved into scum giving up or trolling. Thus, I ask those with powers of good to support our champion in domri (unless the lynch reveals clearly otherwise). I once more repeat that i do not believe in strictly directing town pr actions, and thus I once again ask them to use their own best judgement (ex: WIFOM)

-vote FM glissa sunseeker

I trust an early hammer will not fall. Anyone else who has not commented on this situation, if you add your vote to this train please provide your reasoning (even if you think it is obvious).