New Addition to the -Mafia- Game Rules

[AppleyNO]

Inciting "leave trains" at the beginning of games will now be a punishable offense.
It is considered "high severity", on par with cheating and game-throwing.

This is effective immediately. Don't do it.

[fred]

If you feel the need to leave the game for whatever reason, it will not be punished. Starting the leave train (knowingly) will be punished.

[Voss]

finally. but what about people that don't like the setup? that's the only grey area.

[Gyver]

Most people who play the game don't visit this site. Maybe announce it on the loading screen.

Maybe hint at the upcoming update so loading screen news doesn't just look like a rules update.

[fred]

This rule change won't affect ANY normal players. Trust me on that, it's not a huge issue to them. It will however affect those that are seeking to destroy games.

[Raptorblaze]

[Cryptonic]

My name is Cryptonic, and I endorse this message.

[Gyver]

This rule change won't affect ANY normal players. Trust me on that, it's not a huge issue to them. It will however affect those that are seeking to destroy games.

Don't get me wrong, punishing rule breakers is why I'm a keeper. But given the choice between punishing someone and not having someone break the rules in the first place; I choose the latter.

It also adds further legitimacy to strict punishments. They were warned in the loading screen, they can't use ignorance as an excuse.

[Cryptonic]

New players don't know that you're not allowed to skype, but they still get punished for it. Ignorance is never an excuse for committing a crime. Punishing players for it is the best way to show them that a new rule has been introduced (ie appearing on W/L and K/V, with inciting leave trains as the reason).

Also, think of it this way: All these players committing a crime without knowing it's now a crime probably won't be reported very much for a while because most players don't know it's reportable... so they won't report it. It really evens itself out in the end.

[Gyver]

New players don't know that you're not allowed to skype

And it pains me to write them up. I would much prefer they too were warned that communicating outside of game was against the rules.

Still, I coincide your point. Especially because the newbie skypers might not be aware of what they are doing is wrong regardless of whether or not its against the rules. But the leave trainers do.

[Damus_Graves]

And it pains me to write them up. I would much prefer they too were warned that communicating outside of game was against the rules.

Still, I coincide your point. Especially because the newbie skypers might not be aware of what they are doing is wrong regardless of whether or not its against the rules. But the leave trainers do.

When the lobby rebels against you and your skype partner for cheating and they say their gonna report you for it, you learn that skyping is against the rules then.

[Slaol]

I once tried to start a war against role quitters and leave trains. Glad leave trains have finally been taken for what they are.

[Squidypie]

Thank you!

[Lazers]

i lahv u

[cxx]

To clarify, is the beginning of the game day 1 or the setup?

[Voss]

To clarify, is the beginning of the game day 1 or the setup?

Both.
In either circumstance it's game ruining

[AppleyNO]

So everyone knows, we have defined leave training as "causing a mass leaving of the game for no apparent reason."

If no one leaves, then there wasn't a leave train.

[Blazer]

So everyone knows, we have defined leave training as "causing a mass leaving of the game for no apparent reason."

If no one leaves, then there wasn't a leave train.

Me Gusta. This happens too damn often! >.<

[42shadow42]

So everyone knows, we have defined leave training as "causing a mass leaving of the game for no apparent reason."

If no one leaves, then there wasn't a leave train.

So i can still shout LEAVE TRAIN as long as nobody leaves!!!!! YAY!

[Helz]

I recently filed a report on this. Player was spamming messages to try to start a leave train doing everything he could to ruin the game. Am I to understand that it is only punishable if the player is successful in ruining the game?

-Edit
If this is correct I don't really like it. The more I think about it the worse it sounds to me. Players could end up being punished for unintentionally starting a leave train and people who make every effort to ruin the game for others but are not successful will carry on.
I feel that it would be better for the community if players were punished for attempting to ruin others experience.

[Cryptonic]

I recently filed a report on this. Player was spamming messages to try to start a leave train doing everything he could to ruin the game. Am I to understand that it is only punishable if the player is successful in ruining the game?

-Edit
If this is correct I don't really like it. The more I think about it the worse it sounds to me. Players could end up being punished for unintentionally starting a leave train and people who make every effort to ruin the game for others but are not successful will carry on.
I feel that it would be better for the community if players were punished for attempting to ruin others experience.

I don't agree that someone should be punished if they have caused no negative effect on a game.

[Slaol]

We do have punishments for attempted gamethrowing.
However this is a little different. Kind of an all or nothing type action in most cases.

[Helz]

I am just saying. If you try to rob a bank it is just as bad as robbing the bank. I strongly feel that the intention behind the action defines the morality of the action. So to punish people for the actions alone has no bearing on a players intent. Good players could be hurt and bad players get a pass. This is not justice in any way.

[Voss]

I am just saying. If you try to rob a bank it is just as bad as robbing the bank. I strongly feel that the intention behind the action defines the morality of the action. So to punish people for the actions alone has no bearing on a players intent. Good players could be hurt and bad players get a pass. This is not justice in any way.

Is the situation your talking about when a person leaves randomly at the start of the game without making remarks about "said train"? I think the staff here is only talking about when people shout LEAVE TRAIN CHOO CHOO LEGGO, then follow through with it

[Killerd33]

thats why people who are spamming can be muted so you dont have to listen to their nonsense

[Lazers]

I recently filed a report on this. Player was spamming messages to try to start a leave train doing everything he could to ruin the game. Am I to understand that it is only punishable if the player is successful in ruining the game?

-Edit
If this is correct I don't really like it. The more I think about it the worse it sounds to me. Players could end up being punished for unintentionally starting a leave train and people who make every effort to ruin the game for others but are not successful will carry on.
I feel that it would be better for the community if players were punished for attempting to ruin others experience.

There's no subjective involved when some nigga is goin "LEAVE TRAIN CHOO CHOO" fifty times in chat and then just leaves before any roles are given out

[Helz]

I am trying to push for a player that trys everything to start a leave train and is not successful being punished. Here are specific quotes from a game I played.

'Suck my dick'
'Leaving'
'Shit Save'
'Cya Nerds'
'Horrible save'
'I'm Leaving'
'Fuck this save'
'Cya'
'Choo Choo'
'Leave Train'

After this the player trolled just as hard. To say this player should not but held accountable for trying to start a leave train is not my idea of maintaining order. There should be a balance that takes a players intention into account.

[Cryptonic]

I am trying to push for a player that trys everything to start a leave train and is not successful being punished. Here are specific quotes from a game I played.

'Suck my dick'
'Leaving'
'Shit Save'
'Cya Nerds'
'Horrible save'
'I'm Leaving'
'Fuck this save'
'Cya'
'Choo Choo'
'Leave Train'

After this the player trolled just as hard. To say this player should not but held accountable for trying to start a leave train is not my idea of maintaining order. There should be a balance that takes a players intention into account.

That person didn't leave, though. He was just trolling. Trolling isn't punishable.

I'm fairly certain they're talking about people who go "CHOOCHOO", then they leave.

[Helz]

That person didn't leave, though. He was just trolling. Trolling isn't punishable.

I'm fairly certain they're talking about people who go "CHOOCHOO", then they leave.

I agree that it is what they are talking about. But I want to push for punishment for players that attempt to ruin games. Regardless of if they are successful or not it still something worth moderating for the sake of the community.

[ika]

I agree that it is what they are talking about. But I want to push for punishment for players that attempt to ruin games. Regardless of if they are successful or not it still something worth moderating for the sake of the community.

So every person that trolls saying "shit save" or 'im leaving" or "repick me or i leave" but never leave should be punished? i dislike that idea

personaly i find the humor in ppl who do those trolls, heck even i did it everyone in a while.

i mean if we are going to start punishing ppl for saying things that could incite it we should start punishing ppl for troll saves.

[Bunny]

aren't the people who stupidly follow leave trains worse. i think so.

[Helz]

I am not saying we should punish everyone. I do feel if a player is obviously doing everything in their power to destroy a game they should be held accountable for their actions.

If nobody is against it I will create a thread to hear the community opinion on this matter. I feel punishing players that do everything they can to hurt a game would treat the root of the problem instead of giving them the cop out of saying 'They tried very hard to ruin the game but did not succeed so we should not punish them'.

Moderation in a community in its nature is to establish guidelines for acceptable behavior to make the game a more enjoyable experience for the community. I feel our current policy neglects that in this aspect. Ultimately it should be a judgement call from the keepers and allowing this to be punishable would give the keepers a greater ability to moderate behavior that they feel is unacceptable. It would not necessitate punishing people for trolling.

[ika]

I am not saying we should punish everyone. I do feel if a player is obviously doing everything in their power to destroy a game they should be held accountable for their actions.

If nobody is against it I will create a thread to hear the community opinion on this matter. I feel punishing players that do everything they can to hurt a game would treat the root of the problem instead of giving them the cop out of saying 'They tried very hard to ruin the game but did not succeed so we should not punish them'.

Moderation in a community in its nature is to establish guidelines for acceptable behavior to make the game a more enjoyable experience for the community. I feel our current policy neglects that in this aspect. Ultimately it should be a judgement call from the keepers and allowing this to be punishable would give the keepers a greater ability to moderate behavior that they feel is unacceptable. It would not necessitate punishing people for trolling.

Then how does one decide if its trolling or if they are delibertly trying to incite leave trains.

One keeper could say that each one is just trolling while another keeper could punish each one. For something like this there cant be gray becasue then the person comes on and can merly say "i was just trolling"

[Lazers]

Then how does one decide if its trolling or if they are delibertly trying to incite leave trains.

One keeper could say that each one is just trolling while another keeper could punish each one. For something like this there cant be gray becasue then the person comes on and can merly say "i was just trolling"

Saying "LEAVE TRAIN" and then leaving is clear example of intent

If they don't leave then it's trolling

ez

[Voss]

I am trying to push for a player that trys everything to start a leave train and is not successful being punished. Here are specific quotes from a game I played.

'Suck my dick'
'Leaving'
'Shit Save'
'Cya Nerds'
'Horrible save'
'I'm Leaving'
'Fuck this save'
'Cya'
'Choo Choo'
'Leave Train'

After this the player trolled just as hard. To say this player should not but held accountable for trying to start a leave train is not my idea of maintaining order. There should be a balance that takes a players intention into account.

So every person that trolls saying "shit save" or 'im leaving" or "repick me or i leave" but never leave should be punished? i dislike that idea

personaly i find the humor in ppl who do those trolls, heck even i did it everyone in a while.

i mean if we are going to start punishing ppl for saying things that could incite it we should start punishing ppl for troll saves.

that's not what he said....
the person tried very hard to ruin the game, in game. he didn't say punish everyone who say's 'shit save' or 'i'm leaving' or 'repick me or i leave'

which brings up a point...

is saying "repick me or I leave" and then leaving when he doesn't get the host part of this?

[Cryptonic]

Then how does one decide if its trolling or if they are delibertly trying to incite leave trains.

One keeper could say that each one is just trolling while another keeper could punish each one. For something like this there cant be gray becasue then the person comes on and can merly say "i was just trolling"

EXACTLY! You can't discern the difference, that is why we are only punishing people who are actually successful in doing so. I don't think that a player shouting for a leave train but not actually leaving is having any negative effect on the game whatsoever. If they don't leave after going "CHOO CHOO", then it's obvious that they are just trying to troll the host (and they seemed to be successful in your case) and that they didn't have any ill intentions what so ever.

Trolling is a great tactic in mafia, and that's why the game attracts so many trolls. Most of them are harmless.

Saying "LEAVE TRAIN" and then leaving is clear example of intent

If they don't leave then it's trolling

ez

Lazer's is 110% correct.

[Helz]

After trying to start a leave train the player in question spammed and trolled every bit as hard in the game. I executed him as a jailor and he flipped sheriff. He did everything in his power to ruin the game but by our current rules he can not be punished. I do not feel this is justice.

I am a fan of 'Grey areas' because it leaves things to judgment as opposed to depending on the letter of the law. Would you consider making this punishable if it was a unanimous call?

Point blank this is a loophole I would like to close.

- edit
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...1-S2-1-4110906
For the staff this is the report I am referencing. If anyone feels this players behavior is acceptable I would challenge you to say as much.

When nobody says his behavior is ok look at our rule structure and how he slips threw the cracks of 'it is not technically punishable'. This is a perfect example of how our rule structure fails to protect the community from players seeking to ruin the mafia experience.

We can change this. Why let it fly?

[Cryptonic]

After trying to start a leave train the player in question spammed and trolled every bit as hard in the game. I executed him as a jailor and he flipped sheriff. He did everything in his power to ruin the game but by our current rules he can not be punished. I do not feel this is justice.

I am a fan of 'Grey areas' because it leaves things to judgment as opposed to depending on the letter of the law. Would you consider making this punishable if it was a unanimous call?

Point blank this is a loophole I want to close.

Trolling in game is a legitimate strategy, until you encounter players who can't handle people who they think aren't taking a computer game seriously.

If a townmember spams a game over and over and over, causing him not to get shot and allowing him to stay alive until the end, and wins the game for town, should he be punished?

[ika]

After trying to start a leave train the player in question spammed and trolled every bit as hard in the game. I executed him as a jailor and he flipped sheriff. He did everything in his power to ruin the game but by our current rules he can not be punished. I do not feel this is justice.

I am a fan of 'Grey areas' because it leaves things to judgment as opposed to depending on the letter of the law. Would you consider making this punishable if it was a unanimous call?

Point blank this is a loophole I want to close.

No he could be classified for griefing in that case depening how severe he was "trolling". If he was just being troll by spamming it then that hist own fault, i like "gray areas" in some things but when i was keeper it needed to be black and white pretty much, if i saw a skype report that was in the gray, we would put it on hold unless they have a history,

my opion with this overall is that it needs to be balck and white otherwise everyoen can have a generic answer if ppl dont leave saying "i was trolling"

edit: @crypts post: agreed, he should not be punished

[Cryptonic]

ika is right. plus, grey areas just leave room for biased responses.

[Helz]

I do not agree but I will drop the subject.

[AppleyNO]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...1-S2-1-4110906

This has set policy. If you try to incite a leave train, even without anyone leaving, it can and will be punished.