What do you feel is the strongest role?

[Slaol]

Simple. Feel free to explain your reasoning. All roles have some kind of advantage on Sc2.

Votes are public for discussion, and multiple votes is turned on. If you feel the need to select a role from each alignment, for example, that option is there. Or if you feel that all Mafia Roles are inherently more powerful due to the team work + night kill + etc. Yea.

/vote

I, for example, have put a vote on every Mafia role.

Simple, I feel the Mafia is inherently more powerful. The voting block, night kill, immunity (through the godfather), starting knowledge of the roles list opening the game with 3 roles confirmed, and a more informed objective from which to interpret the claims during the day.

[Squidypie]

I, for example, have put a vote on every Mafia role.

Simple, I feel the Mafia is inherently more powerful. The voting block, night kill, immunity (through the godfather), starting knowledge of the roles list opening the game with 3 roles confirmed, and a more informed objective from which to interpret the claims during the day.

I was going to vote bus, but now I guess I'll just vote town lol, for we are LEGION

[Slaol]

I was going to vote bus, but now I guess I'll just vote town lol, for we are LEGION

Care to clarify? This option is not wrong either. The Town's overall power is normally much higher than the Mafias. Up to some 3 KPNs, roles like Veteran and Marshall and Jailor. As a whole the Town has the largest arsenal at it's disposal. My decision to pick the Mafia roles was made because of the voting block. The voting block and night chat gives the Mafia a DIRECT link to the other roles' powers. This not being something Town has access to easily.

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...-s-Mafia-Stats

To support my choice, I link you the only actual stat record we keep on any level. (i think)
You will find that Town and Mafia's win rates are very similar. This being, on average, games consisting of 9 Town against 3 Mafia. The Mafia win just as many games against the larger arsenal because each individual role has access to far more capabilities individually.

[Helz]

Crier- Self Confirms and great for sheep control.
BD- Really OP with a good player. Anti town for a normal player.
Sheriff- Scum Smashing with a non troll town

SK- Blends with the most common role (Doc), Night immune and can kill
Exe- Super easy to win with D1
Cult- They spread like herpes.

GF- Shows up as Cit and is immune to RB and night + Kill


Crier is my over all vote. Claim N1 and get TP on you then lead the sheep to a win. In a public game you really don't even need invest roles to pull it off.

-Edit

Note that SK pulls his super OP self without a team. If you were to give the sk a team.. Yeah.. Theres a reason you cant do that..

A lot of the debate on the strongest role is based on context. As Slaol pointed out- Town/Mafia could be the best and have the highest win ratios. But yeah..
I would note

[WHITE BOY SLIM AYO]

I use to believe that mayor was the most powerful, however this all changed with the introduction of the kidnapper role. I think that the strongest duo town combo would be BD + doctor. You can pretty much survive to the end of the game, and if it's 2 mafia (no RB roles) versus 2 BG Doctor, they can't do anything.

I'm going to have to agree with ThinkLiveLife and say that Crier is the strongest overall role and it has taken my vote. Crier is also my favorite role. You are a confirmed town. You aren't a threat to the mafia to be killed (I consider it bad play to kill the crier early). You aren't useful enough to be healed by a doctor. You won't be targeted by detective, sheriff or investigator role if they know who you are (HUGE). Even if you don't reveal, your hint note pretty much shows that you cannot be evil. A lookout may be on you. People can safely PM you their roles (people don't usually do this it seems even if the crier reveals). You aren't as pressured as being a jailor or mayor and getting blamed for failure. You get a license to troll.

Close second would be jailor or veteran. Veteran is usually revealed after they kill a mafia member, and no one is willing to doubt it. Jailor can kill anyone he doesn't like and people who are suspicious (town seems to ignore people who don't give roles and people who sit there silently, and jailor can definitely game change).

Which leads to my unofficial hypothetical role tiers:
1.) Crier (Strongest in terms of overall ability)
2.) Mayor (Game changer + confirmed town)
3.) Jailor (Game changer + role block)
4.) Veteran (Game changer + semi-confirmed town)
5.) Bus Driver (VERY strong but people don't seem to know how to use this role. Leads to investigations getting fucked. People don't leave last wills. I think that the best way to play BD is to constantly bus yourself with one person early game until leads are provided.)

This is pretty much all power roles and seemingly fit their titles (Crier is power too and for good reason despite what some people think).

While we are on the the topic, I think that the worst role is Marshall. I've only had one game where I was Marshall and had a game changer where it was 3 towns vs 2 mafia and no one knew whose role was what (never seen anyone else use Marshall and game change). 90% of the time (remember that 76% of all statistics are made up) , when a marshall reveals, it usually ends up with people randomly lynching and causing the town more harm than good. Also, the times when the marshall isn't trolling, the town generally doesn't have enough votes to make a game changer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but marshall and mayor also cannot be in the same game either, so plays cannot be made.

Also Slaol, I think the mafia roles are strong but I personally dislike mafia roles. Something about figuring out who is what is very fun for me. Not to say mafia doesn't have to do this either, but they have less to figure out than what the town has to do. I am approaching 10k points in-game and will hopefully be able to blacklist all non-town roles. Also, not to be rude to good mafia players, but a stupid town is way worst than a stupid mafia. Town seems to be their own worst enemies, seeing as how they tend to kill themselves instead of worrying about the guy who doesn't give roles and sits there quietly all game.

PS: ThinkLiveLife, I can be wrong but I don't think SK can be associated with doctor anymore. I think their hint note is that they are a jailor or vigilante.

[cxx]

The strongest role by far is the Jester - a good player can get constant win rates of at least 80% - with Executioner being second. I don't see any other role surpassing that.

Notable Mentions:
- Jailor, by far the most powerful role to a skilled town player, as it gives you the possibility for "private trials" and to pierce through immunity, not to mention the roleblock. You will have the greatest impact on the game in favour of town with Jailor.
- Cultists are glass cannons by default, but if you can land successful conversions early (real cultists, no wds), you can switch to being more loud and manipulative at day yourself while your allies usually remain calm, forcing your opponents to give away their alignment and resulting in quality targets for cult. Even if you are killed yourself, the chances of winning are good then and considering the easy ~40 or 45 points per win, they are really worth the mentioning. I should add that this probably only correct for non-cult saves, so saves that spawn cultist from any random/neutral evil exclusively. You need the initial non-awareness .
- Serial Killers are not powerful in terms of how often they win a game, but powerful by their nature. If you compare it to any other role in a 1on1, there is no role more powerful, especially since SK is a hard counter to Jailor. Like Cultists, they are glass cannons, but have a much lower chance of winning, so they end up being a drag and killing about 3 town roles, before they get lynched. SK is one of the most annoying roles. He has no real chance of winning, but he will get his kills, and you need a jailor or an execution to get rid of him.

I don't see that mafia is at an advantage by being teamed. I even contradict that. By being teamed, the vast majority of mafia players will give themselves away by voting patterns, so usually it is the following:
You find 1 maf -> with voting patterns you narrow the other 2 mafia down to ~3 players. Easy win, especially when the first one is found early. And you will get town's trust. And your accuracy will be higher than the average investigator's.
The chances of finding 1 out of 3 maf is higher than to find a single SK (or any other single neutral killing or neutral evil). And exceptions aside, if you found one mafia, you found all three. They need 3 executions though.

[WHITE BOY SLIM AYO]

The strongest role by far is the Jester - a good player can get constant win rates of at least 80% - with Executioner being second. I don't see any other role surpassing that.

Notable Mentions:
- Jailor, by far the most powerful role to a skilled town player, as it gives you the possibility for "private trials" and to pierce through immunity, not to mention the roleblock. You will have the greatest impact on the game in favour of town with Jailor.
- Cultists are glass cannons by default, but if you can land successful conversions early (real cultists, no wds), you can switch to being more loud and manipulative at day yourself while your allies usually remain calm, forcing your opponents to give away their alignment and resulting in quality targets for cult. Even if you are killed yourself, the chances of winning are good then and considering the easy ~40 or 45 points per win, they are really worth the mentioning. I should add that this probably only correct for non-cult saves, so saves that spawn cultist from any random/neutral evil exclusively. You need the initial non-awareness .
- Serial Killers are not powerful in terms of how often they win a game, but powerful by their nature. If you compare it to any other role in a 1on1, there is no role more powerful, especially since SK is a hard counter to Jailor. Like Cultists, they are glass cannons, but have a much lower chance of winning, so they end up being a drag and killing about 3 town roles, before they get lynched. SK is one of the most annoying roles. He has no real chance of winning, but he will get his kills, and you need a jailor or an execution to get rid of him.

I don't see that mafia is at an advantage by being teamed. I even contradict that. By being teamed, the vast majority of mafia players will give themselves away by voting patterns, so usually it is the following:
You find 1 maf -> with voting patterns you narrow the other 2 mafia down to ~3 players. Easy win, especially when the first one is found early. And you will get town's trust. And your accuracy will be higher than the average investigator's.
The chances of finding 1 out of 3 maf is higher than to find a single SK (or any other single neutral killing or neutral evil). And exceptions aside, if you found one mafia, you found all three. They need 3 executions though.

Well if you want to win, jester and executioner definitely have good odds.

However, I can't agree with you and say that jester is the strongest role. Of course we all have different definitions as to what "strong" means (in your case, it seems high win chance).

I think the strongest role in mafia should be based on survivability and power to change the game.

[cxx]

You are not regarding the win conditions. The win condition is substantial when it comes to defining a role. It is the win condition that makes the jester superior.
Refer to what I said about SK. He is the most powerful role, if you don't regard win conditions. (I know a vet with weird settings is supposedly stronger.) So he will do damage. But his win condition leaves him in such a weak position that he is no real threat when it comes to who wins the game.

Some ideas on survivability though:
Let's say a jester needs to survive 1 night (unlikely more) against 2 killers, before he achieves his goal. Thus he would have a higher survivability than a mafia (not gf or beg) who at average survives maybe 3 nights or 3 days against 1 killer, before he is lynched or killed.
Analogously, his overall chance of being revealed by an investigative role are much lower than any scum's chances.

[kyle1234513]

i voted for a 3 way tie of jailor/veteran/witch, because depending on settings, they could all swing as the most powerful.

veteran could end the game on night one.

jailor can turn around a losing game so long as he jails the killer.

and witch, well, that much control is just OP, can send a mayor to kill himself to the veteran, can force a jailor to execute, can guarantee safe haven from mafia who turns on you (control godfather kills, or put a doctor or a bodyguard on yourself) can force the escort to continuously roleblock the sheriff or invest thus rendering 2 town roles useless. just a ton of utility as witch.

[WHITE BOY SLIM AYO]

If you don't regard win conditions, then GF > SK. Everything about GF is better than SK except the role block thing which, IMO, rarely happens. You get two free lapdogs that you don't have to clean up after and can target for you if you go AFK. If you are talking about GF vs SK at end game, then shouldn't arsonist be the strongest role? What about MM (LOL, anyone else remember when MM's could spree every night?)

I won't deny that Jester is strong but what do you mean about how it's unlikely that a jester needs to live past night 1 before he/she achieves their goal? Maybe its the draught typing but any decent mafia player can determine if you're too obvious, then yes you won't be targeted at all and will be completely ignored (yes, that's pretty powerful) and will just sit there all game waiting for someone to kill you at night (this is kind of a lost of power IMO) and jester "annoyance" ability is pretty weak and I don't even recommend using at all. Doctors and bodyguards don't give a shit about you. No one gives a shit about you. You're just a extra vote. If you aren't obvious, then you become a target for mafia / neutral kill at night. I don't feel like checking mafia wiki, but as for investigation roles, I'm pretty sure that a jester comes up as an arsonist or jester.

Speaking of which, A TRUE MAN TRIES TO MAXIMIZE PROFIT ON POINTS by attempting to survive as jester until the end. Someone complimented me on a jester achievement that I earned over a year ago that I didn't even realize I had. I remember always trying to be the last person lynched as jester so I'm pretty sure it was legit.

TL;DR

Jester Pros:
-Easy to win.
-Very fun role.
-Neat achievement.

Jester Cons:
-Has absolutely no presence at all. (No one gives a shit if there is a known jester)
-Has no control at all. (Can't stop a guy from killing you, can't get people to protect you)
-Annoyance ability is really only used if the game is at a standstill.
-Cannot game change. (OH SHIT A JESTER OMG, oh well one more person dies at night <sarcasm>)
-The random lyncher that dies can be healed by a doctor.
-Can be converted to cult. (Might be a pro)
-Invest role points to being an arson/jester. Also, a detective can reveal that you have an non-targeting role.
-Pro tip: type -mute <name>, it hard counters jesters.

[WHITE BOY SLIM AYO]

and witch, well, that much control is just OP, can send a mayor to kill himself to the veteran, can force a jailor to execute, can guarantee safe haven from mafia who turns on you (control godfather kills, or put a doctor or a bodyguard on yourself) can force the escort to continuously roleblock the sheriff or invest thus rendering 2 town roles useless. just a ton of utility as witch.

Hmm good point Kyle. Am I playing witch wrong? Because what I usually do is try to find the GF/SK as fast as possible so I don't die. Once I find the GF (or a confirmed doc to heal me), I make him kill who I choose. This is because I have huge problems surviving to the end of the game and I don't trust those mafia bastards at all. Also, I can be wrong but I don't think that you can control the mayor to target a vet because I think that witch powers only work on targeting roles. Maybe we need a new thread on how to play witch (or maybe stop being lazy and check what the good folks wrote on mafiawiki).

[Gyver]

I rate strength on the ability to dictate the pace of the game. Rather than the ability to win but the ability to make everyone else lose.

Top Tier:
Godfather - night and detect immunity plus the ability to kill every night allows GF to lie his ass off, mostly not worry about dieing outside of lynch and dictate the pace of the game.
Bus Driver - verifiable after the first night and thus eligible to take a leadership role in town. Able to disrupt and possibly kill non-towns with advanced WIFOM. Role most influenced by level of skill.
Most people that play bus driver aren't very good.

Amazing Tier:
Mayor - Instantly verifiable is alone enough to put mayor in the very good tier. Mayor is not in the top tier because his extra votes ability isn't as powerful early game with both a large number of living town and mafia afraid of being found by their votes.
Kidnapper - Kidnapper is the trifecta of mafia killing, support and deception. A convincing kidnapper can get his jailed victims to believe he is a real jailor. Each night he is capable of learning his captives roles. He can skip a jailing and GF can claim jailed plus a maf kill the night before to avert suspicion. His kill ignores night both night immunity and town protectives allowing him to take out a confirmed town.
Crier - Instantly verifiable is the main reason crier is up here. Having more time to explain his thought process to town without interruption is a bonus.
Mason Leader - Mason leader is extremely powerful because he can not only eliminate cult without worrying about harming town but he can verify whether someone claiming cit is telling the truth or a night immune God Father. Furthermore, with a converted mason, becomes verifiable to town.

Very Good Tier:
Jailor - Escort and Vigilante rolled into one with the extra ability to interrogate a suspicious player before killing. Potentially verifiable once role list no longer allows for a kidnapper.
Marshall - Instantly verifiable but knocked back from amazing tier because to verify himself he must use his ability that is much better used end game when you have a better idea of who is good or bad.
Blackmailer - Blackmailer gets a spot at very good purely for the ability to completely shut down a verified town. BM also gets the bonus of helping framer lynch, or skipping the use of his ability to give a weak alibi to a fellow maf.
Cultist - Ability to make self stronger with each passing day. Can mostly remain hidden.
Witch - Power level was averaged out as her strength is largely based on if she knows who is what role. With high knowledge she belongs in the top tier. With no knowledge she belongs in below average.

Average Tier: Anyone not mentioned is average

Below Average Tier:
Detective - Potentially only useful for finding killers + blackmailer. If a person survives an attack that you saw, you can't even reveal that day because you may have followed the
Beguiler - Needs luck + WIFOM to be able to make use of his ability. He is detect and night immune for an average of 2 nights. Vig bait.

Bad Tier:
Survivor - No reason not to claim surv on d1 to keep a moderately intelligent maf/sk from wasting a kill on you. Town generally don't waste a lynch on surv (though they should if they don't have any other leads). Doesn't dictate the pace of the game at all until the end when he can act as a tie breaker. Hurts the metagame because the instant he reveals (which is generally a smart move), town knows who the neut benign is.
Mafioso - Veteran fodder. In a game with a GF the best thing a mafioso can hope to do is run into a veteran so the GF doesn't.
Cit - No one wants to be a cit. Cit serves the important function of giving a detect immune GF something to claim if an invest checks him. This makes cits actually hurt town more than help. The only exception to this is with the presence of a Mason Leader that can make a person no longer a cit.

[WHITE BOY SLIM AYO]

I rate strength on the ability to dictate the pace of the game. Rather than the ability to win but the ability to make everyone else lose.

Top Tier:
Godfather - night and detect immunity plus the ability to kill every night allows GF to lie his ass off, mostly not worry about dieing outside of lynch and dictate the pace of the game.
Bus Driver - verifiable after the first night and thus eligible to take a leadership role in town. Able to disrupt and possibly kill non-towns with advanced WIFOM. Role most influenced by level of skill.
Most people that play bus driver aren't very good.

Amazing Tier:
Mayor - Instantly verifiable is alone enough to put mayor in the very good tier. Mayor is not in the top tier because his extra votes ability isn't as powerful early game with both a large number of living town and mafia afraid of being found by their votes.
Kidnapper - Kidnapper is the trifecta of mafia killing, support and deception. A convincing kidnapper can get his jailed victims to believe he is a real jailor. Each night he is capable of learning his captives roles. He can skip a jailing and GF can claim jailed plus a maf kill the night before to avert suspicion. His kill ignores night both night immunity and town protectives allowing him to take out a confirmed town.
Crier - Instantly verifiable is the main reason crier is up here. Having more time to explain his thought process to town without interruption is a bonus.
Mason Leader - Mason leader is extremely powerful because he can not only eliminate cult without worrying about harming town but he can verify whether someone claiming cit is telling the truth or a night immune God Father. Furthermore, with a converted mason, becomes verifiable to town.

Very Good Tier:
Jailor - Escort and Vigilante rolled into one with the extra ability to interrogate a suspicious player before killing. Potentially verifiable once role list no longer allows for a kidnapper.
Marshall - Instantly verifiable but knocked back from amazing tier because to verify himself he must use his ability that is much better used end game when you have a better idea of who is good or bad.
Blackmailer - Blackmailer gets a spot at very good purely for the ability to completely shut down a verified town. BM also gets the bonus of helping framer lynch, or skipping the use of his ability to give a weak alibi to a fellow maf.
Cultist - Ability to make self stronger with each passing day. Can mostly remain hidden.
Witch - Power level was averaged out as her strength is largely based on if she knows who is what role. With high knowledge she belongs in the top tier. With no knowledge she belongs in below average.

Average Tier: Anyone not mentioned is average

Below Average Tier:
Detective - Potentially only useful for finding killers + blackmailer. If a person survives an attack that you saw, you can't even reveal that day because you may have followed the
Beguiler - Needs luck + WIFOM to be able to make use of his ability. He is detect and night immune for an average of 2 nights. Vig bait.

Bad Tier:
Survivor - No reason not to claim surv on d1 to keep a moderately intelligent maf/sk from wasting a kill on you. Town generally don't waste a lynch on surv (though they should if they don't have any other leads). Doesn't dictate the pace of the game at all until the end when he can act as a tie breaker. Hurts the metagame because the instant he reveals (which is generally a smart move), town knows who the neut benign is.
Mafioso - Veteran fodder. In a game with a GF the best thing a mafioso can hope to do is run into a veteran so the GF doesn't.
Cit - No one wants to be a cit. Cit serves the important function of giving a detect immune GF something to claim if an invest checks him. This makes cits actually hurt town more than help. The only exception to this is with the presence of a Mason Leader that can make a person no longer a cit.

Good list.

[Cryptonic]

Strongest is definitely GF.
Can be immune to attacked, roleblock, and investigation. Also has other Mafia members' votes to use and night actions to strengthen self. However, Mafia members are also the biggest con, because no one busses on SC2Mafia.

Second is Marshall, because he can change the entire course of the game in a single day.

I would probably vote for Masons as third, but I only voted for 2. Masons are confirmed town and a voting block, something that incredibly helps town and can reduce night action targets to help find scum.

[cxx]

Well, I feel like GF is at a disadvantage because he is teamed and mafia pretty much reveals through ambiguous votings. So that's why he is usually way easier to spot than an SK, at least to me.

I meant it is unlikely a jester needs to survive more than one night, because usually you will get lynched day 2.
You should use the annoying as a tool, but there is no need to. Sometimes it is good to declare someone who is trolling a jester, so you yourself don't look like jester. Or you use it to counterclaim neutral benign/any random claims, if you need it.

However, you need to metagame a lot. Analyze the players list and find a strategy that's suitable for their skill level and you will get lynched day 2 at least with a 80% probability. Sometimes it might be enough to claim you have been doused, sometimes you need multiple layers of deception. But it's usually doable on day 2.
That makes the role powerful. But of course, in the hands of a noob it necessarily isn't, just with any other role of power.

[WHITE BOY SLIM AYO]

Do you guys really get mafia games where the Marshall doesn't do more harm than good? Because I've almost never seen it happen.

[RLVG]

Personally, I think the Disguiser is the strongest role.

If you're good on analyzing on how other behaves and know how to use the ability correct, you can virtually become a confirmed town.
The WIFOM is quite high and the gambits is quite open.

[Slaol]

Do you guys really get mafia games where the Marshall doesn't do more harm than good? Because I've almost never seen it happen.

I've seen it happen, but the majority of games I play have higher ratios of people from site in them. We are, slightly, better than the pubs.
Marshall, for me, is Town's strongest role.
It is auto-confirmed Town as early as Day 1, and comes with between 2 to 6 additional lynches basically instantly. It can easily ruin the Town by simply upping the chances for Town to shoot itself in the foot, but Veteran, Vigilante, Jailor, and Bus Driver are most regularly blamed for ruining Towns alongside the Marshall. These roles possess the most individual power for a Town role, and it is in their hands to make good of it.

[Squidypie]

:/ It's pretty rare for marshall to lynch more than 1 town without a maf

[pat_power]

Strongest: GF, Jailor
Weakest: Mafioso, Detective

[Slaol]

Weakest: Detective

How?

[Squidypie]

I appreciate your thoroughness, but why is Stump even an option?

[yzb25]

Easily framer is the strongest role - if the framer manages to pull just one frame off, he has an 80% chance of ripping the town apart. The mafia can literally watch in silent the rdm chain as the town lynches the town who lynches the town who lynches the town. And there is no real counter to framer, either. But all the mafia deceptions in general are very strong.

And I think veteran is the weakest role. It's not so much him being weak as much as how ridiculously retarded I see him as. Generally, you can guess who the MM targets and you can avoid him, but there is no guarantee ever that the person you visit is not a veteran. I've seen veterans claim survivor, doctor, mayor, jester, investigator, sheriff, godfather and be totally silent on d1. There is no way of telling. And somehow he usually ends up attracting 3 or 4 doctors / sheriffs for every serial killer he manages to hook. I've always hated the veteran, always will. He never helps ANYONE.

[Gyver]

@yzb24 That might just be an argument that its best just to not alert on d1 and take the risk of dieing.

Perhaps not alerting until you are seen as town such that you wont be invested but there is a more important verified town that will be protected.

Veteran, Vig and BD all suffer from a strong skill to performance link that causes bad or even mediocre players to make the role itself look bad.

[yzb25]

@yzb24 That might just be an argument that its best just to not alert on d1 and take the risk of dieing.

Perhaps not alerting until you are seen as town such that you wont be invested but there is a more important verified town that will be protected.

Veteran, Vig and BD all suffer from a strong skill to performance link that causes bad or even mediocre players to make the role itself look bad.

The role is almost entirely luck based. Even the window you specified is extremely vague and the ideal window for a lookout to visit you. The only way you can confirm yourself as town is by killing someone as veteran, and once you're proven veteran no mafias will want to visit you. The point of the role is to stay anonymous and hope you can hook a mafia before you get caught by a town who updated his lw in advance. It's almost purely dice roll and adds very little to the game apart from an increase in the fear of dying n1.

Even if you find the perfect window to go alert, there is never a guarantee things will turn out how you hoped because people might simply go: "f*** it, I'll heal 4 instead" or "f*** it, I'll investigate 5 instead" purely for the sake of being more random and less predictable. It's such a dumb role and I always exclude it from randoms. It's a significantly weaker town killing than its vigilante, jailor and bodyguard counterparts as it will usually kill more towns than mafia. There is no "correct" way to play it that will result in killing more mafs than towns 90% of the time.

[Killerd33]

marshall is just a mafia role disguised as a townie in most games it only helps put the nail in the coffin for town thats why my vote goes for veteran as it is my favorite role

[Killerd33]

The role is almost entirely luck based. Even the window you specified is extremely vague and the ideal window for a lookout to visit you. The only way you can confirm yourself as town is by killing someone as veteran, and once you're proven veteran no mafias will want to visit you. The point of the role is to stay anonymous and hope you can hook a mafia before you get caught by a town who updated his lw in advance. It's almost purely dice roll and adds very little to the game apart from an increase in the fear of dying n1.

Even if you find the perfect window to go alert, there is never a guarantee things will turn out how you hoped because people might simply go: "f*** it, I'll heal 4 instead" or "f*** it, I'll investigate 5 instead" purely for the sake of being more random and less predictable. It's such a dumb role and I always exclude it from randoms. It's a significantly weaker town killing than its vigilante, jailor and bodyguard counterparts as it will usually kill more towns than mafia. There is no "correct" way to play it that will result in killing more mafs than towns 90% of the time.

i have seen in the countless times i have played as veteran after preferring it name myself something long and annoying people always come to kill me and its usally both neutral and a mafia role of course towns also visit me but cant all be good news now can it but yeah im wanted dead cause of annoying name and being veteran just makes game easy for me

[Gyver]

i have seen in the countless times i have played as veteran after preferring it name myself something long and annoying people always come to kill me and its usally both neutral and a mafia role of course towns also visit me but cant all be good news now can it but yeah im wanted dead cause of annoying name and being veteran just makes game easy for me

I always heal annoying names first as doc. I may not particularly care for a guy named yoloswagblazitfagt but I realize he's a prime target and protect him to help town.

[Killerd33]

I always heal annoying names first as doc. I may not particularly care for a guy named yoloswagblazitfagt but I realize he's a prime target and protect him to help town.

i mean a name thats in caps and is as long as i can make as long as i can still speak and is really dumb

[yzb25]

I always heal annoying names first as doc. I may not particularly care for a guy named yoloswagblazitfagt but I realize he's a prime target and protect him to help town.

And as gf I'll never kill names considered annoying (no name ever really annoys me). Instead I'll see if he can get himself lynched. But you've all proven my point, that relying on metagame to try and get killers to visit you and not town as veteran doesn't work either. It is purely a roll of the dice.

[kyle1234513]

And as gf I'll never kill names considered annoying (no name ever really annoys me). Instead I'll see if he can get himself lynched. But you've all proven my point, that relying on metagame to try and get killers to visit you and not town as veteran doesn't work either. It is purely a roll of the dice.

there are plenty of strategies to get the maf to target you as veteran, you could random accuse and hope to get lucky with a 3/14 chance, or perhaps 3/13 or 3/12 on day 2. just by saying 1 person in particular is maf. alternativley you can seem pro town, and be a strong voice in favor of the town, the worst case scenario with this is you lose a doc, and a doc puts it in his last will saying he heals you (making you an auto confirmed town) and can start asking for roles, and any non role giver can be labeled as maf.

the worst way to play vet is to say nothing. the trick is to say the right things to get town to believe you are town and arent worth investigating, and not worthy of healing/protecting either, but just enough for maf to want you dead. ie be a strong voice.

[Squidypie]

Easily framer is the strongest role - if the framer manages to pull just one frame off, he has an 80% chance of ripping the town apart. The mafia can literally watch in silent the rdm chain as the town lynches the town who lynches the town who lynches the town. And there is no real counter to framer, either. But all the mafia deceptions in general are very strong.

And I think veteran is the weakest role. It's not so much him being weak as much as how ridiculously retarded I see him as. Generally, you can guess who the MM targets and you can avoid him, but there is no guarantee ever that the person you visit is not a veteran. I've seen veterans claim survivor, doctor, mayor, jester, investigator, sheriff, godfather and be totally silent on d1. There is no way of telling. And somehow he usually ends up attracting 3 or 4 doctors / sheriffs for every serial killer he manages to hook. I've always hated the veteran, always will. He never helps ANYONE.

Last night I played with a vet who got arson +GF n1, Whiteboyslim (Mafioso) n2, and disguiser n5
No townies, and no achievement.

[pat_power]

Last night I played with a vet who got arson +GF n1, Whiteboyslim (Mafioso) n2, and disguiser n5
No townies, and no achievement.

Well, that's just huge luck + trolling from mafia/witch. Technically, vet has more chances to kill townies than baddies the first days, since there're usually more towns that can target someone.

Also, veteran is basically based on luck. I don't really see any effective tactic to be targeted by baddies only and not town.

[yzb25]

there are plenty of strategies to get the maf to target you as veteran, you could random accuse and hope to get lucky with a 3/14 chance, or perhaps 3/13 or 3/12 on day 2. just by saying 1 person in particular is maf. alternativley you can seem pro town, and be a strong voice in favor of the town, the worst case scenario with this is you lose a doc, and a doc puts it in his last will saying he heals you (making you an auto confirmed town) and can start asking for roles, and any non role giver can be labeled as maf.

the worst way to play vet is to say nothing. the trick is to say the right things to get town to believe you are town and arent worth investigating, and not worthy of healing/protecting either, but just enough for maf to want you dead. ie be a strong voice.

Heheh, funny how I got veteran 3 times in one day after making these posts.

But as has been said, it's still almost entirely luck based. Even the window you specified is extremely vague and the ideal window for a lookout to visit you.

Besides, how would you honestly create this window? One person's idea of a pro-town is another's idea of a mafia WIFOMing pro-town. The WIFOM logic pretty much destroys all logic surrounding veteran. And being a confirmed town is overrated. Once I get my 10 doctor claims I won't really be anywhere closer to working out who mafia is. If I keep anonymous to try and hook a mafia I'll probably kill more townies than mafias. Seriously, I actually did quite well in the 3 veteran games I played but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if I killed 5 towns in the next 3 I played.

I'm pretty sure I explained all this in an earlier post, anyway.

[Voss]

Heheh, funny how I got veteran 3 times in one day after making these posts.

But as has been said, it's still almost entirely luck based. Even the window you specified is extremely vague and the ideal window for a lookout to visit you.

Besides, how would you honestly create this window? One person's idea of a pro-town is another's idea of a mafia WIFOMing pro-town. The WIFOM logic pretty much destroys all logic surrounding veteran. And being a confirmed town is overrated. Once I get my 10 doctor claims I won't really be anywhere closer to working out who mafia is. If I keep anonymous to try and hook a mafia I'll probably kill more townies than mafias. Seriously, I actually did quite well in the 3 veteran games I played but I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if I killed 5 towns in the next 3 I played.

I'm pretty sure I explained all this in an earlier post, anyway.

If you have 10 doctor claims, do a chain heal so no one can die. Our more generally direct the heals publicly so those targets are confirmed alive

[yzb25]

If you have 10 doctor claims, do a chain heal so no one can die. Our more generally direct the heals publicly so those targets are confirmed alive

huh I've never thought of or seen that before... thanks =3

[cxx]

That's stupid, you occupy the doc's or bg's night action but they won't achieve anything, leaving investigative or power roles defenseless.

Heal chains only work with confirmed protectives who can then blockvote.

[yzb25]

That's stupid, you occupy the doc's or bg's night action but they won't achieve anything, leaving investigative or power roles defenseless.

Heal chains only work with confirmed protectives who can then blockvote.

wtf, nonono I think you misunderstood the situation. If you have 10 doctors, all numbered from 1-10, you should make 1 heal 2, 2 heal 3, 3 heal 4, 4 heal 5 exc. and then basically whoever dies next the number below that person is the evil (so if 6 dies 5 must be evil cuz he was meant to heal 6). I have had end game situations where nearly everyone claims protective but I've never thought to do what boss suggested.

Of course, the downside is the investigator will die as noone can logically heal him, but in a situation with 1 mafioso and 2 doctors and 1 bg it can definitely be useful.

[cxx]

It's not 10 docs, it's 10 doc claims. So they aren't confirmed.
So if you announce it - guess what, none of them will get killed. Instead, 11 to 15 will die, in an order determined by whether they are town and by how powerful their role is.

Even with 1 mafioso, 2 docs and a bg it is not useful. A smart mafioso will not kill at all and go for 2 lynches... that is fairly doable, if he just goes along with the flow for the fist lynch and leads the second.
However, town's chances to win are higher, if no targets are announced.

[TheDarkestLight]

With good skill MM -along with basically every other role- is OP. Has a huge KPN potential and can shut down tons of roles. A Marshall/Mayor might think twice before revealing if there is a known MM.

Yet with a typical pubbie it is easily one of the weaker roles in the game.

In conclusion...

Skill is OP. Nerf skill. -jk-

[Poriomania]

I've seen a lot of people say "Bus Driver is the strongest, most skill-intensive role" without going into why.

Can you guys please explain for the uneducated masses (aka me)? How do you play Bus Driver?

[ika]

I've seen a lot of people say "Bus Driver is the strongest, most skill-intensive role" without going into why.

Can you guys please explain for the uneducated masses (aka me)? How do you play Bus Driver?

Im betting someone can explain it better but bus driver can be either one of the best or worst roles due to how you use it, you can redirect some scum onto itself and run them over, you can save a marshal/mayor/town from being shot, you can easily confirm yourself (sometimes), if you can predict mafias moves the bus driver can easily counter it.

those are things i though of off the top of my head

[Slaol]

I've seen a lot of people say "Bus Driver is the strongest, most skill-intensive role" without going into why.

Can you guys please explain for the uneducated masses (aka me)? How do you play Bus Driver?

Bus Driver is, potentially, the most incredible Bodyguard you have ever see.
Bodyguard's best case scenario is that he protects someone, gets the kill, and is healed to survive the attack.
Bus Driver, when successful, is that. He will protect his A target, kill his B target, which would hopefully be a Mafia, and not die in the process.
Also, the kill coming from misdirection in the fashion of a Bus Driver allows for the possibility to eliminate a Witch, Cultist, Jester, or Non-Killing Mafia. Roles a Bodyguard can not impact.
Furthermore, in the event that this can not kill the B target, in the case of a Godfather, Serial Killer, etc, the kill is prevented without loss of the Bus Driver.

Beyond the perfect scenario, we have the other alternatives. Should you swap a Survivor or any other less valuable role (Citizen, Coroner, possibly a now obsolete Sheriff) infront of a kill you can save roles that still have active power. Sacrificing a weaker role for a more powerful one.

Bodyguard is an incredible role. It protects its target (confirms its target as SOMETHING) with the use of it's last will, and kills a killing role. Bus Driver, when done right, is a Bodyguard with more options to kill, and the increased potential and likelyhood to kill more than 1 of those targets. It also comes with confirmability as early as Day 2 with the use of feedback that no other evil can match. It is an insta-confirming/protecting/killing machine all rolled up into one.

How do you play Bus Driver? Most of the time you don't. But the general strategy is to fill your A slot with the person you consider the most trustable, consider yourself a Doctor, and the B slot with someone you find the most useless to the Town. The selection of 'useless' as a word is more my style than a requirement. If you search for who has been less than useful you will often find a scum, but will also open up the possibilities to find benigns that will only do harm, Cultists that are lurking, or Survivors that will survive the night anyways.

Then, make sure to remain vocal, and keep the Town up to date on your swaps in the event that you have irritated the natural flow of the game.

Not every game will come together. But generally these are the levels of performance you should see out of a Bus Driver.
Good: 3/5- as powerful as a a Crier, only utilizing the auto-confirmability.
Exceptional: 4/5- a Crier that also manages to prevent a few deaths
Awesome: 5/5- a Crier that manages to, single handedly, kill multiple killing and/or non-killing scum while also protecting valuable town

The only instances in which a Bus Driver screws over a Town, you have witnessed an exceptionally poor and nearly offensive level of incompetence.

[acku11]

VOTE MM BECAUSE MM IS MASTER ROLE AND BECAUSE SLAOL TOLD ME/YOU TO

[Slaol]

VOTE MM BECAUSE MM IS MASTER ROLE AND BECAUSE SLAOL TOLD ME/YOU TO

Slaol has not even made a case for Mass Murderer yet.

[Squidypie]

I changed my mind. Unlimited alert vet in Joseph's troll save. Unlimited alerts, guaranteed one, and the guy prefers it
Just in case that's not enough, the bg's and mayors were healable and no one was night immune.

Can we make vet not a preferable role if unlimited alert is active?

[Slaol]

Can we make vet not a preferable role if unlimited alert is active?

No.

[AppleyNO]

Veteran with unlimited alerts and cannot pierce immunity is a good, not 100% OP, Veteran

[Slaol]

Veteran with unlimited alerts and cannot pierce immunity is a good, not 100% OP, Veteran

Town should pierce immunity. Night immunity is Godfather, and Neutral Killing's defense against eachother. As many kills as Town can control, the most frequent Death Descriptions are Mafia and Serial Killer. They are protected from the other Evils by Night Immunity. Town should bypass it in every scenario other than the saves that don't use it. Then Town can not have it, idc :P

[Voss]

It's not 10 docs, it's 10 doc claims. So they aren't confirmed.
So if you announce it - guess what, none of them will get killed. Instead, 11 to 15 will die, in an order determined by whether they are town and by how powerful their role is.

Even with 1 mafioso, 2 docs and a bg it is not useful. A smart mafioso will not kill at all and go for 2 lynches... that is fairly doable, if he just goes along with the flow for the fist lynch and leads the second.
However, town's chances to win are higher, if no targets are announced.

Then dont lynch until someone dies. Pm me if you have more questions on this strategy because it works very well.