Epilogue

[TheDarkestLight]

@TDL, I said false threat of an enforcer for a reason. Everyone assumed that there was an enforcer, and therefore didn't jump to convert Cafarelli. How long would it have been for other active town to be converted if y'all knew that I knew there was no mason enforcer. I absolutely hate lying as town but being confirmed town was the only reason I could do that.

I don't think the blackmailer was underpowered as written. However, the mafia ran into reckless deltas and coroners. Carruther's suiciding was one of the smartest plays he could have made.

Actually if you took a look at the night chat you will see I wanted to recruit smart people. The people I wanted to convert were Ballard, Parker, and Donnelly... We recruited the only one that was recruitable. Even if there was an Enforcer it wouldn't have changed the result in failing to recruit the other two.

EDIT: The threat of a possible Enforcer didn't keep me from recruiting Ballard though, I went right ahead with it.

[CmG]

Actually if you took a look at the night chat you will see I wanted to recruit smart people. The people I wanted to convert were Ballard, Parker, and Donnelly... We recruited the only one that was recruitable. Even if there was an Enforcer it wouldn't have changed the result in failing to recruit the other two.

öÖ

I can see why you tried Ballard. I don't see why you wanted to recruit Parker or Donelly. They weren't good choices to begin with if we consider their day activity.

[TheDarkestLight]

öÖ

I can see why you tried Ballard. I don't see why you wanted to recruit Parker or Donelly. They weren't good choices to begin with if we consider their day activity.

Note the comments I made on each of them in the chat.

[FM Ferengi]

I added award signatures to the epilogue post! Go and see!

In case they're a little unclear... the background image (in most cases) are test tubes that the Brave New Wold grows babies in, and the side image is little pods full of growing Deltas. (It was a bit of a struggle to find theme appropriate images that I thought I could work with, so I hope it turned out ok!)

Congrats again to all the winners and to the future Player's Choice Winner! I hope you like your award signatures

[TheDarkestLight]

I added award signatures to the epilogue post! Go and see!

In case they're a little unclear... the background image (in most cases) are test tubes that the Brave New Wold grows babies in, and the side image is little pods full of growing Deltas. (It was a bit of a struggle to find theme appropriate images that I thought I could work with, so I hope it turned out ok!)

Congrats again to all the winners and to the future Player's Choice Winner! I hope you like your award signatures

imb4 none of them get used.

[Gerik]

Alright then... how about this. Put yourself into my shoes as a Savage who didn't get recruited as a Savage PR and the Savages were down one member from a failed recruit, and then make sure that when you get your third member, you go through a whole day not knowing if it worked or not, and then die the next day, and watch your new ally die right after. Also make sure that you have the pressure of the fact that if the GF dies half of your team dies with you. Sure I didn't get to that part myself, but I'm pretty sure it was very hard on my surviving allies.

Could the Savages bus someone to completely bypass the Doctor heal? Could the Savages give out false night feedback to other players? Could the Savages roleblock? Also although the Savages could recruit townies, unlike standard Cult we couldn't recruit the confirmed ones -Caf was an exception but the Town was pushing to put a Clubber on him and everyone thought he was a Savage anyway- because they are beta+. And was there a role that was made SPECIFICALLY to kill your team -Masons-? Sure there were other PRs yet they also went after us, and the Neutral Evils. Did you go night after night of worthless night actions because you tried to recruit someone who couldn't be recruited? You had 6 pre-set members all with special night capabilities that could harm the Town, and us. We had investigative roles which we could use to find you can kill you, nothing else.

Tell me, if Mendez had been killed at night, would half of the Mafia suicide? No. And don't forget the Witch was going to Maf side, the Savage GF died and one of the Savages suicided, also we never got to 6 members, we had 5. You had 6 plus the Witch. Put yourself through all this and watch your team win.

Sure I wasn't the Savage who won it in the end, but you basically said that the Mafia was screwed over and that the Town might as well get control of their kill. Same thing goes for the Savages, and while you might have had one role that was limited -BMER- the whole Savage team was limited through priority over keeping a single person alive, which is very difficult.

Please tell me how the stress of being in the Mafia relates.

I was talking specifically about my role. Your frustration seems to be with the way cults work. They always start with one member, and the suicide thing is pretty standard. Your team actually had the potential to be very powerful. But I digress.

[FM Ferengi]

imb4 none of them get used.

It's completely optional to use them! The award signatures aren't supposed to be a punishment "you-won-an-award-in-fm-18-so-now-i-will-force-you-to-use-this-signature" signatures. I won't be upset or offended if people choose not to use them.

[Titus]

They are very well done. ;)

Passing soma to scum was NEVER my intention. My scumdar needs a little work but it was my first.

As for those who said I didn't hide my com very well, I wasn't really trying. I was focusing more on getting my bearings playing an M-FM.

[TheDarkestLight]

I was talking specifically about my role. Your frustration seems to be with the way cults work. They always start with one member, and the suicide thing is pretty standard. Your team actually had the potential to be very powerful. But I digress.

One more thing. I was recruited as a standard Savage. Let's compare the BMER to the standard Savage.

Savage: Can talk with the Savages at night. Can do the night kill.

BMER: Tell someone to do basically what you tell them to do as long as it follows pre-set rules. If they don't follow it after two days they are either made a Delta/Savage -Which can be invaluable- or if they are already a Delta they die.

You turning the Coroner into a Delta removed the Town's ability to read last wills. Also if your kills had failed who knows what might have happened? That was two extra town members? Imagine those two extra town members in the endgame if they hadn't suicided. Most likely a different outcome.

Lets look at the last FM. We were both CP9. I needed one more kill to get a majority with the Pirates and Jester and I tried to do it by faking a GT and getting the Pirate lynched. That failed and Town won. Your two kills were the kills the Mafia/Savages needed to get to the 1v1v1 scenario, because imagine it being 3v1v1. Town would have won.

[FM Ferengi]

One more thing. I was recruited as a standard Savage. Let's compare the BMER to the standard Savage.

Savage: Can talk with the Savages at night. Can do the night kill.

BMER: Tell someone to do basically what you tell them to do as long as it follows pre-set rules. If they don't follow it after two days they are either made a Delta/Savage -Which can be invaluable- or if they are already a Delta they die.

You turning the Coroner into a Delta removed the Town's ability to read last wills. Also if your kills had failed who knows what might have happened? That was two extra town members? Imagine those two extra town members in the endgame if they hadn't suicided. Most likely a different outcome.

Lets look at the last FM. We were both CP9. I needed one more kill to get a majority with the Pirates and Jester and I tried to do it by faking a GT and getting the Pirate lynched. That failed and Town won. Your two kills were the kills the Mafia/Savages needed to get to the 1v1v1 scenario, because imagine it being 3v1v1. Town would have won.

Look on the positive side: things could have been worse! You could have been a TPR who gets recruited to the savages as an invest on N1 so you turn into a regular savage. (I was going to feel bad if that happened to someone)

Also good point! I actually couldn't believe how close it came in the end. Additionally, I think the added blackmail suicides helped rebalance the KPN deficit that the Arson not burning caused. The blackmailer was never intended to be a killing role so it actually surprised me a lot that it managed to get of even one kill!

[Gerik]

One more thing. I was recruited as a standard Savage. Let's compare the BMER to the standard Savage.

Savage: Can talk with the Savages at night. Can do the night kill.

BMER: Tell someone to do basically what you tell them to do as long as it follows pre-set rules. If they don't follow it after two days they are either made a Delta/Savage -Which can be invaluable- or if they are already a Delta they die.

You turning the Coroner into a Delta removed the Town's ability to read last wills. Also if your kills had failed who knows what might have happened? That was two extra town members? Imagine those two extra town members in the endgame if they hadn't suicided. Most likely a different outcome.

Lets look at the last FM. We were both CP9. I needed one more kill to get a majority with the Pirates and Jester and I tried to do it by faking a GT and getting the Pirate lynched. That failed and Town won. Your two kills were the kills the Mafia/Savages needed to get to the 1v1v1 scenario, because imagine it being 3v1v1. Town would have won.

I actually did request to become a mafioso at one point...

But your faction got to choose which roles it had. So the fact that you were a regular savage was because the godfather fucked up. You could easily have been a detective or something. I was blackmailer from the start. Not much I could do about it. And I did manage to kill, but if town had played properly that wouldn't have even happened.

Look on the positive side: things could have been worse! You could have been a TPR who gets recruited to the savages as an invest on N1 so you turn into a regular savage. (I was going to feel bad if that happened to someone)

Also good point! I actually couldn't believe how close it came in the end. Additionally, I think the added blackmail suicides helped rebalance the KPN deficit that the Arson not burning caused. The blackmailer was never intended to be a killing role so it actually surprised me a lot that it managed to get of even one kill!

I was surprised I got any kills too since town basically had complete control over whether or not they died to it. All they had to do was... Not fuck up.

[Azuriae]

I hadn't realized I couldn't claim my previous blackmail if I was currently blackmailed. I misunderstood that part of the rolecard; I guess it wasn't very clear to me.

[Titus]

I hadn't realized I couldn't claim my previous blackmail if I was currently blackmailed. I misunderstood that part of the rolecard; I guess it wasn't very clear to me.

It wasn't clear to me either.

[FM Ferengi]

I hadn't realized I couldn't claim my previous blackmail if I was currently blackmailed. I misunderstood that part of the rolecard; I guess it wasn't very clear to me.

I feel terrible that it wasn't clear enough to people. The reason against being able to claim any blackmails while blackmailed is that it opens up the door for you to fake claim "Five days ago I was blackmailed" on Day 3, which is an absolutely ridiculous claim and can hint that you're currently blackmailed.

If you think about it rp-wise, the mafia approached you and told you to do task X or they would reveal your deepest secret. You complete the task, and they decide that hey, Azuriae really doesn't want us to tell his secret so we'll just blackmail him into doing task Y. If you reveal that you were blackmailed to do task X, you end up revealing your deepest secret which ashames you so much that you commit suicide (Delta) or the city takes away your job licence and demotes you.

At least, this is how it made sense to me.

[Voss]

oh sht. mafia wanted to kill kalou night 3

that would have been game over for savages

[FM Bishop]

They could have forced the cult into killing, if that had happened. DD passes a Soma note and you the other kind of blackmailer.

[Phyr]

Somehow I am a magnet for night kills and host errors. I should totally be a Citizen.

[Voss]

They could have forced the cult into killing, if that had happened. DD passes a Soma note and you the other kind of blackmailer.

It would have decimated the savages. Mafia would have then lost with just the six of them. For sure

[Phyr]

It would have decimated the savages. Mafia would have then lost with just the six of them. For sure

I don't follow your reasoning. It is not in the interest of the Mafia to kill the SGF. They just don't want the Savages to get strong. Forcing them to kill Town is in the Mafia's interest. If the SGF does not comply, simply kill him after 2, 3 or 4 nights. That way a Savage will survive and be forced into killing town.

[Titus]

I feel terrible that it wasn't clear enough to people. The reason against being able to claim any blackmails while blackmailed is that it opens up the door for you to fake claim "Five days ago I was blackmailed" on Day 3, which is an absolutely ridiculous claim and can hint that you're currently blackmailed.

If you think about it rp-wise, the mafia approached you and told you to do task X or they would reveal your deepest secret. You complete the task, and they decide that hey, Azuriae really doesn't want us to tell his secret so we'll just blackmail him into doing task Y. If you reveal that you were blackmailed to do task X, you end up revealing your deepest secret which ashames you so much that you commit suicide (Delta) or the city takes away your job licence and demotes you.

At least, this is how it made sense to me.

I took a contract view of the blackmail. If your view was accurate from an RP perspective, the mafia would logically reveal the secret if a player had uncovered the mafia.

A contract model makes it more likely the objectives get done. Do the blackmail and the pictures are destroyed kinda thing.

[Burnt Eskimo]

I wanted to ask the players a question about the blackmail that I disagreed with Gerik about -

Did you know you could CHOOSE which day to activate your blackmail in a situation where you were told NOT to do something?

For example - I blackmailed you saying - You may not vote or show any suspicion against Mendez.

First day, you can post all this shit about how I am scum and vote me up. Second day you can choose to do the blackmail and say nothing about me.

I argued that only the Mafia knew of this restriction since we probably asked the most questions about it. I said we could get away with blackmails like this because a town would not realize they could break the Blackmail in this way. So did any of the townies realize this loophole?

[NoctiZ]

I wanted to ask the players a question about the blackmail that I disagreed with Gerik about -

Did you know you could CHOOSE which day to activate your blackmail in a situation where you were told NOT to do something?

For example - I blackmailed you saying - You may not vote or show any suspicion against Mendez.

First day, you can post all this shit about how I am scum and vote me up. Second day you can choose to do the blackmail and say nothing about me.

I argued that only the Mafia knew of this restriction since we probably asked the most questions about it. I said we could get away with blackmails like this because a town would not realize they could break the Blackmail in this way. So did any of the townies realize this loophole?

I sure as hell hope that others knew that.

I for one only had to post a BM which stated that I was investigator but I knew that I could still do that the day after I claimed BD, which would show that it's a blackmail and stuff.
Naturally it should also work for a BM that tells us not to do something.

[FM Bishop]

I wanted to ask the players a question about the blackmail that I disagreed with Gerik about -

Did you know you could CHOOSE which day to activate your blackmail in a situation where you were told NOT to do something?

For example - I blackmailed you saying - You may not vote or show any suspicion against Mendez.

First day, you can post all this shit about how I am scum and vote me up. Second day you can choose to do the blackmail and say nothing about me.

I argued that only the Mafia knew of this restriction since we probably asked the most questions about it. I said we could get away with blackmails like this because a town would not realize they could break the Blackmail in this way. So did any of the townies realize this loophole?

Yep. It's just another blackmail. I don't see how this is notably different from a regular "do something" blackmail.

[powerofdeath]

Guys is it bad if I memorized my username and password by heart?
Throughout the game i managed to memorize my long weird password

[Voss]

I don't follow your reasoning. It is not in the interest of the Mafia to kill the SGF. They just don't want the Savages to get strong. Forcing them to kill Town is in the Mafia's interest. If the SGF does not comply, simply kill him after 2, 3 or 4 nights. That way a Savage will survive and be forced into killing town.

im not saying it was in the interests of the mafia to kill the SGF, im saying that it almost happened, and they would have killed him thinking theres at least one more

[Voss]

also. i dont think its that fair for other players to have special out of game information. specifically, im talking about the finding out of secret accounts, or having access to roles list meta. there needs to be a better effort to not be allowed use.

[FM Ferengi]

also. i dont think its that fair for other players to have special out of game information. specifically, im talking about the finding out of secret accounts, or having access to roles list meta. there needs to be a better effort to not be allowed use.

Some people literally look through hundreds of recently created members to try to find the new FM anon account names. As an effort to combat this, the 20 reserve players were given accounts to participate in the puzzle game, and Rocshi created a strange amount of starting anon accounts (check mafia night chat for some interesting commentary on this). Perhaps in the future, hosts can recycle old FM accounts? I'm not really sure how to get around this.

At the moment, I have no good suggestion for avoiding role list meta.

[Nick]

also. i dont think its that fair for other players to have special out of game information. specifically, im talking about the finding out of secret accounts, or having access to roles list meta. there needs to be a better effort to not be allowed use.

Special out of game information might be bad.

But how does knowing secret accounts and role list meta not fair / give competitive advantage?

Derps with accounts are host error.
Role list meta are just guesses, might not even be accurate. Like single Clubber or two Corrupt Journalist.

[Voss]

There was evidence in mafia chat that maf knew that there wouldn't be amnesiacs or students. That's specific info they can use, and everyone else can't.

I do like the idea of fm account reuse.

[Titus]

What about hiding the post count feature in this forum?

[FM Bishop]

im not saying it was in the interests of the mafia to kill the SGF, im saying that it almost happened, and they would have killed him thinking theres at least one more

Isn't the vest on SGF a dead give away? Unless the SGF was clubbed earlier, he would survive the Mafia's attack. Then the blackmailing would begin.

[BorkBot]

What about hiding the post count feature in this forum?

Would work for night chat accounts but not for day accounts.

People could use the view recent posts to probe for day activity. Though it would take more time, some weirdos would still do it.

That and post count is a fair indicator for in-game activity that hosts and players can use to see who is lurking or inactive.

[FM Ferengi]

Congratulations to Titus as FM Parker for winning the Player's Choice Award!

Thanks to everyone who participated in FM18! It was a lot of fun to host and watch things unfold and I owe it all to you guys!

[Titus]

Thank you! I'm glad you had fun. ;)

[ypmagic]

Don't worry... FM Green will be back at FM19.

[powerofdeath]

Aww FM Hopgood didnt win?

[Apache]

So a few words from le Yayap

-not dousing early:

even though hosts and scum were mad that I didn't provide the KPN that was planned with my role, I stand by my decision not to douse in the early game. Dousing notification was on, I didn't want to tip off that the arsonist was in the game till much later. Also, my early targets that I would have doused were killed by the mafia soon after. Bishop would have been my top priority target and he died the same night I would have doused him. If the game had gone on longer, I would have started to douse people, but someone "cough" Cafarelli "cough" was on my tail the entire time and didn't give me a chance.

I died laughing when I found out how true my defense was about there being 2 drug dealers. AND that my claim that cafarelli got my invest pairing wrong was the best defense I could pull out. I was thinking of claiming bus driven but with 3 claims already out, I was thinking that cafarelli was setting a trap, I thought that (s)he might have been the 4th person. It was only after that I found out that claiming bussed would have not helped me at all.

Good job Cafarelli for not even hinting that you didn't check me while I was alive. Made the wifom war much more interesting that way.


-mafia team:

To be honest, the roles the mafia got would have been my dream team. Even the blackmailer, I'm disappointed that the mafia tried too hard to exploit the role instead of keeping it simple. The 2 day limitation is not bad at all, just plan accordingly that the person will do the blackmail on the second day. With all those false info roles, I think the best thing they could have done is start sending out fake roleblocks/bussed/witched/attacked and healed as well as bm people to claim those as well, instead of getting 4 bussed claims, you could get as many as 7.. try to figure out what happened with that.... not to mention that people would start lynching people because they'll think they lied.


-joining the hosting group

Glad I could be of assistance, hosting a big fm is much harder than mfms/sfms... not to mention forum problems. Loosing the vote counter was a bummer but we managed.

thh i believed you that the pairing is wrong. i thought you're some other kind of scum then. anyway, i couldn't show it because you would've been spared.
what would be funny if the mafia hinted to you that i was drugged to no feedback. like phelps, who mentioned the gambit anyway coming to the conclusion: "i think it's a gambit and he never got invest result"

But... what you just said is exactly my point. There is nothing wrong with planning ahead. But you have to be adaptable. That's the problem with this blackmailer. It has no adaptability. You can make a plan on day 1 that's designed for day 3, but if day 3 comes and that plan is no longer worth doing, too bad, because the blackmail can't be changed. You're stuck with whatever you sent in two nights ago.

I mean, sure, we could kill everyone we blackmailed if we wanted to change plans, but then we're not really getting to use the blackmailer for anything except preventing people from claiming blackmailed as well as announcing to the doctor who is likely to be killed on any given night.



Meh. Talk to me again if you ever are assigned this role or if you share a night chat with it with these same restrictions in an FM. If you still feel like I'm being "whiny" after that, then maybe I'll take you seriously.

Well the thing is the mafia never wanted to make your threat stick. Perhaps maybe having the first blackmail include the message that all future blackmails will include the message that if you don't complete on day 1, we will shoot you. Then, you actually have to shoot the target. Shooting the target possibly frees them up in the OoO so you can submit another blackmail in the case your target died.

The blackmailer role is to force scared threats on the town. Some, like Cafarelli, would have refused to do a blackmail, N1. If you had blackmailed me, I would have DONE the blackmail and promptly revealed as Mayor on D1 of the blackmail. I couldn't take the risk of the mafia shooting me when we were in the positions we were in and I felt like I had to live.

ppl weren't smart enough to use the 2 days, so you actually didn't have to plan 2 days ahead.
even cits were too afraid of dying lol
i'm gonna clarify why it's bullshit to do it first day.
1) first of all, if you're a cit, drawing a kill is a good thing. if you're a TPR you're just going to show the maf you're important if you do the blackmail the first day and get killed anyway
2) it hurts the mafia pretty much to kill guys who don't do it d1. sure they can bm again so that doesn't waste 2 days but at least 1. additionally if everyone does it d2, noone will ever be bmed!!
so we see it's also bullshit for the mafia to kill them off, another reason why town should wait till d2.

also titus, please forget that thing that mayor is important. that's only if town loses majority or if there are no smart guys left who can coordinate the town. you don't get any information after all, so you're just a confirmed cit. for example it would've been much better is monroe or me was alive instead of you.

@TDL, I said false threat of an enforcer for a reason. Everyone assumed that there was an enforcer, and therefore didn't jump to convert Cafarelli. How long would it have been for other active town to be converted if y'all knew that I knew there was no mason enforcer. I absolutely hate lying as town but being confirmed town was the only reason I could do that.

I don't think the blackmailer was underpowered as written. However, the mafia ran into reckless deltas and coroners. Carruther's suiciding was one of the smartest plays he could have made.

actually the suiciding was pretty dumb. first he could just wait till d2. then he could've claim blackmailed but still complete task so he doesn't have to suicide. not even mentioning the loophole "his lw said he was invest but check said cit" which was caused due to maf's lack of understanding of coroner role
town had so many chances to win, if we just took one of them we would have won. examples: lynch scum instead of doc, mason failed to block the right person on 2 nights (once he falsely blocked rose and once he falsely blocked galloway instead of rose), kelso got himself lynched and of course also the suicides due to blackmail and breaking rules (one more townie in the end and we would've won). i don't blame colmyer though, i would've done the same (apart from doing the bm first day ofc). we specifically asked the host if it's allowed to claim blackmail after it's over and he said yes. his fault imo

There was evidence in mafia chat that maf knew that there wouldn't be amnesiacs or students. That's specific info they can use, and everyone else can't.

I do like the idea of fm account reuse.

can you link me to it?


@host: i still didn't get an answer why the savages won and galloway couldn't kill rose. i'd rather see nobody (but cj) wins

[Forum Mafia GM]

@host: i still didn't get an answer why the savages won and galloway couldn't kill rose. i'd rather see nobody (but cj) wins

Hosts had discussed this during the night when Modkills happen in the OoO. After some deliberation we concluded that it would be the first thing, even before joining the night chats.

Reasons:
- In previous FMs, were power roles allowed to do their night actions if they were being modkilled that night, the answer is no.

- If Galloway was not alone in his night chat, would we have removed him from it when we decided to modkill him, the answer would be yes.

- If the modkillable action was during the day, would we have waited for the night to end to modkill, no. Leary was removed from the fm usergroup at the start of night.

- When do modkills happen in sc2 mafia when a moderator modkills. As soon as the modkill command is given and this prevents all night actions from carrying through, although he only shows up in the graveyard at the start of day.

Although it wasn't specified when in the OoO the modkills happen, nor should it be necessary because hosts never want it part of the game, Galloway died the moment he spoke in that skype chat and not during a shootout with Rose. No night actions took place on the last night, Rose did not kill Galloway. He was already dead from being modkilled.

Rose was simply the last person alive, thus resulting in a savage win.

[Titus]

I'm sorry but I don't place the under estimation on Mayor you do. People who are smart and have information might want to funnel that information through a confirmed town. Without a mayor, there is no confirmed town. A mayor is as useful as the skill behind the player. I wasn't as good at communicating as I could have been but the mayor still did a fair amount for the town. It clearly identified who the sheep were and drew out some information for the town despite having no investigators communicating with us because Cafarelli spent most of the time dead. A mayor can also lie in manners intended to deceive scum without fear of retribution. A confirmed citizen, even by a sheriff, cannot do that due to the possibility people believing the sheriff made it up.

I do think that occasionally it is good to do a blackmail day 1. If I get a blackmail, regardless of my role, the first day of an FM, I'm doing it. I want players to know there is a blackmailer. It does give the mafia another blackmail, but the leads to the town are greater. I don't feel the picture regarding blackmail is as simple as people make it out to be. If I'm a different PR, let's say escort... I wouldn't probably do the blackmail on day 1. Mayor just has this confirm ability to it and is one of the hardest roles to play properly.

[Apache]

sure it's good to have confirmed townies, but that can be other townies aswell. like i said, mayor is just a confirmed cit with extra votes. being confirmed is useful of course but not as useful as important TPRs or very smart people. and the votes are only useful if town has no majority

i don't know how ppl should get information if you do your bm d1. after all they don't know you're bmed.
also ppl expect you do carry it out until d2, so you just cause confusion if you do it d1. remember colmyer? we all thought he was blackmailed n1

[BorkBot]

Player database has been updated with this FM.

[Bruno]

Player database has been updated with this FM.

Excuse me? I was not modkilled, I had opted for replacement.