S-FM 348: Standoff

[Loldebite]

I would expect Miz to be pretty likely to keep me alive if she's partners with you (I expect she would let you make the choice though).

Miz/Death has real guts if they're keeping me alive after the whole Miz/Death w/w thing on D1. Not strictly impossible due to my defence of Miz but wouldn't expect it.

Oh yeah I had overlooked the fact that your initial push on DW was based on a s!miz s!dw interaction. Yeah, okay that seems a bit unlikely

[Wiml]

There are not 4 power roles in the game.

You are both claiming to be the 3rd power role. With ika dying it went from mech one scum in the three of you to mech one scum in the two of you.

*4 town power roles, obviously

[Mizery]

There are not 4 power roles in the game.

You are both claiming to be the 3rd power role. With ika dying it went from mech one scum in the three of you to mech one scum in the two of you.

Omg so true

[Mizery]

So it's just lol and he wplfslipped by thinking there wasn't on mech wolf,?

[Loldebite]

There are not 4 power roles in the game.

You are both claiming to be the 3rd power role. With ika dying it went from mech one scum in the three of you to mech one scum in the two of you.

3rd PR could still be hiding among cits, could it not ?

Oh I'm dumb, we've just witnessed the 2nd Town PR flip... I guess only world where dw is town is one with scuù tailoring varcron as chem, then. Yeaaaah not 100% mechanically confirmed now but

[Loldebite]

He...is pushing you....saying you're the tailor. ..

Sure, that's nothing to do with mechanical confirmation tho.

[Loldebite]

So it's just lol and he wplfslipped by thinking there wasn't on mech wolf,?

How tf is it a wolfslip lol, if there really is tailor as dw claims, nothing's confirmed yet

[Loldebite]

Which I guess is the whole point of the tailor accusation

[Loldebite]

3rd PR could still be hiding among cits, could it not ?

Oh I'm dumb, we've just witnessed the 2nd Town PR flip... I guess only world where dw is town is one with scuù tailoring varcron as chem, then. Yeaaaah not 100% mechanically confirmed now but

wait no that would mean both scum hid amongs cits, there's like, no way... Nevermind

[Wiml]

It's not a strict mech confirmation (forgot tailor) but yes it's extremely likely that you're not t/t both from mech and in the thread posting.

[Wiml]

We should also probably decide on a voting order.

It's much less important without locked votes but it's still more useful than not having one.

[Loldebite]

I'll just respond right in here because quoting a post makes the quotes within it disappear lol, so it's gonna be hard to do something similar to what you did. The responses are in the same orders as your questions.

Spoiler : Reply :

About the early mech posts: I am not reading them based on their usefulness, but rather on the intent behind them. A long, early mech post that contains useful information about what we should do and that indicates the player wants to take the day into their own hands is generally good (or at the very least not scummy, since I perfectly realize it's easy enough to actually be pro-town as scum by doing this). Conversely, a long, early mech post that really just... says things without the solving aspect is bad, because when you think about it, there is zero reason for town to put effort into something like that when it gives town nothing; hence, my read of the intent is that it's meant to look towny more than to be pro-town. I am aware it isn't a rock-hard argument lol and I don't necessarily give it tremendous weight now, but in the first half of D1, it was the most AI thing I could see - hence my not so amazing confidence at that point.


About Ikarus' "wrong = scum" mindset being towny: He's relatively new to FM (and I dare say his prior experience in the SC2 arcade doesn't really count here, since it's so different), and he puts in A LOT of effort for games. The scum behavior you're talking about would fit an old player who doesn't see the magic in the game anymore and just plays lazily, sometimes lurks, etc. (I've seen such people on other sites). Plus, "wrong = scum" is a common new player misconception about scumhunting, one that I had myself when I first played. To be honest, I hadn't even seriously considered the option you're talking about, because I felt like the situation it would apply to is so alien to the one Ikarus is in that it becomes irrelevant. It becomes even more true considering it would have been damn ineffective lol.


Why I ISO'd POD early on: Someone, I think it was Varcron, said in their reads list that I was "absent", basically that I had no posts and that they couldn't read me based on that. I thought "hey, that's not true lol" at first, and decided to go check the post count (which is done by going in the section (ongoing forum mafia games), and then clicking the little number indicated by "Posts:"). There, I saw that I indeed had only 13 posts, so I thought it might be fair for someone who may have overlooked some to say they just can't read me yet. Then, I noticed POD was super high on the list (I think he actually was the 2nd top poster, probably the first being you, Vittae), but that I literally could not remember any of their posts; plus, it was tempting to ISO him there, because the link to the post count page includes easy links to ISOs xD.


About needing POD resolved: I strongly believed POD to be scum for the rest of D1; the fact he needed to be resolved before we couldn't take risks anymore only sealed his fate in my mind. The only small moment of doubt I had is when Deathworlds just voted him out of the blue with like 10 minutes left to the day, which made me evaluate his vote using the votecount, but I then realized he was just purely forced to self-pres (I hadn't realized how much pressure he was under at that point and wouldn't have thought he would end up tied for lynch), so my doubt was dispelled.


Earlier posts that contrasted with Mizery's sudden confidence:

If I sum up the reads in there: Vittae opening without mech (not terribly great), Ikarus pure (this is pretty much the only hint of confidence I see in there), MM is gth townread by Vittae so I guess he's fine (literally just a temporary sheep, 0 confidence, + doubt), says her two wolfreads are likely not W/W (basically the opposite of confidence lol), pending wolfread on Deathworlds (it's pending further posts basically), null on POD (its a nullread). Note that this is exactly the kind of reads I expected from someone at the early stages of the game; this felt genuine enough, even though it wasn't terribly hard to fake at all.

This is basically the post that gave me an idea of Mizery's prior confidence, considering the rest of what she said was entirely unmemorable to me/just fluff/off-topic that didn't tell me much (I'm looking at her ISO right now and realize there literally was a bunch of thin air between this and the post that triggered my suspicion lol). Then comes:




If you want to see the progression (or lack thereof, actually), you may just go look at her early D1 ISO by yourself, it speaks for itself.


Expecting Varcron's death: Absolutely not lmao. I was pretty sure you were going to die, Vittae, because you were/are the de facto town leader and were towny (although I guess my townread on you at that point was based for a significant part on the mindmeld regarding POD), whereas he was basically a silent background player; sure, he had a towny claim, but it was still not confirmed at all, and the fact he was basically sleeping on it after getting some townreads made me have some background doubts.


On Mizery's last second vote at EOD: Mizery seems to have somehow started to feel like POD was getting towny towards EOD (which I still fail to see, btw, and I don't think she actually explained this, so I'm thinking she might have gotten stressed due to knowing she was lynching town), so it might have been more of a dissociation from a mislynch than anything else in a context where both lynch options would benefit her: otherwise, it's extremely hard to explain why she would intentionally let the lynch be literally random. Like, you don't do that when you're beginning to townread one of the options as town, you just VOTE THE OTHER lol. As for the "as scum, she should want the investigator dead at all costs" part, I'm not so sure about this: investigator is just a rolecop (which doesn't always reveal much about alignments), and even more importantly, whoever was getting lynched there, it was going to be MYLO on the next day, meaning the investigator's results wouldn't even matter, since scum could just call him scum and discredit anything he would say as some kind of last hail Mary (which is basically what is happening at the moment, for the record). Apart from this, the statement that you should take responsibility over who dies has two issues: 1) you didn't seem to be actually going to decide it when there was less than a minute left to the day, so putting responsibility on you wouldn't work; 2) why in the world does town, who doesn't know what the flips will be, want to put the lynch's responsibility on someone else? That is just indicative of scum not wanting to have green blood on their hands when they know it's going to be green.
Assuming W/W Mizery/Deathworlds, the EoD doesn't make much sense, though, because the bus towncred wouldn't be as easy and amazing to get by just letting it rand, so I have doubts on this and am not asserting it's the world we live in (and I think I already said this).

Green : it WOULD reveal something on s!mizery tho...

Orange : simple, getting coached/copiloted is easier. Mizery does seem a bit lazy like me in that aspect, but I'm too much of a paranoid fuck to actually let anyone do the copiloting.

pink is just MM being scum lol

[Loldebite]

I've only read the last paragraph ftr, the fact that there's so much I dislike about it already makes me think I should review it whole

[Loldebite]

I should've paid more attention, I feel like t!MM doesn't make excuses for people nearly as much as s!MM but I'm not actually certain this feeling is accurate

[Wiml]

Deb can you talk to me about your read on Miz please?

Feel free to talk about your read on me if you'd like to, I'm more familiar with that one though.

[Wiml]

Green : it WOULD reveal something on s!mizery tho...

Orange : simple, getting coached/copiloted is easier. Mizery does seem a bit lazy like me in that aspect, but I'm too much of a paranoid fuck to actually let anyone do the copiloting.

pink is just MM being scum lol

Can you explain the pink please?

[Wiml]

Ftr I an willing to answer questions about my main account if it helps people who don't know me solve me more easily.

Don't want to see any excuses later saying that you couldn't ask me stuff.

[Wiml]

@deathworlds how would you self describe your wolf game? Are you stronger as one alignment than the other?

Also what account were you using in the anon wolf game you linked me please.

[Wiml]

hey y'all sorry for being awol as fuck. been sick and resting.

So

starting with my night results: I investigated Marshmallow and found he was a citizen.

Here's a wall talking about what I think was going through my medicine addled brain on day @Vittae

Spoiler : . :

So I started off the game as I would pretty much any other game, with some setup speculation. I love setup speculation, some here know me for my crazy setups and games that I've hosted here before, chief among them, Insanity. I'm obsessed with hosting and setup balance, it's fascinating, and it's incredibly satisfying to come up with something clever and unique, and to have my players enjoy the games I host. So that bleeds over a lot into how I play the game. Mech talk is generally seen as NAI, and I agree, some would even say it doesn't help town, or it hinders town *cough* MM *cough*, but I will never not talk about setup speculation and balance.

After some nothing talk about how long it's been and catching up with some pals, I pointed out ikar making a deal about mizery claiming town at the very start of the game. This is something I really see as a nothingburger, and I really don't get why people say that, what does town claiming accomplish in a setup like this with only two opposing factions? Like, are they trying to project that they're town? People should just assume people are town until proven otherwise or suspicion sets in, focus your brain juice on people that are acting sus. Reevaluate periodically. Bah I'm going on a tangent here, but really, in the moment I think I was just annoyed.

then I pointed out that we can only pull off one mislynch, in the moment I was just trying to make sure people are aware of this fact, low number setup, not something I play very often.

I then argued with MM regarding setup speculation, which is something I touched on in a previous paragraph, I argued that RVS is just as useful as setup speculation. Here is more annoyance, but otherwise nothing really interesting.

Then we have some arguements about what is a useful role and what isn't, a bit of throwbacks to previous games I played and hosted, some mech talk, nothing really interesting.

I then told everyone to leave a last will, I didn't think about the tailor at this time, but I still find it dissapointing that varcron didn't listen to my white bold text, next time I'll use size 5 or something idk.

left my investigator crumb. This is something I tend to do spur of the moment, I figured if I were to leave a crumb of my role at all, this would be a great time to do it in a natural and subtle way. There wasn't really any planning done here at all, other than leaving a tool for me to use later in case people didn't believe my claim later.

Ah the "funny varcron WIFOM" comment, this is something that still leaves doubt in my mind about what varcron is, it was here that I thought in the moment, that "varcron is a citizen, and he's trying to trick scum into thinking he's a powerful TPR by softing a shitty TPR" which is actually probably out of character for varcron but that's what I thought in the moment. I did not think varcron was being honest here.

Then later I do some reminiscing then tell people I'm going to medicate myself then go to bed.

After I get up I provide some games for vittae that I played.

then I have the big wall post.

I'd love to do a play-by-play on all the comments I did in the giant wall I did on D1, but most of those are saying exactly what I was thinking in the moment, so I'll only point out the ones that might be different. One thing to note is that I commented a lot on mizery's posts, which is probably because her posts stuck out the most to me when I was creating that quote/reply wall. Another thing to note is that I don't think loldebite ever replied to my question in my giant wall post on day 1, which annoys me but is expected from scum. I questioned my position on vittae's read list (null) at the time, since there was a lot of points made for me that seemed to be town indicator to me, specifically the mind-melding, which, if two people are agreeing with eachother and from your own town!perspective, people that agree with you tend to share the same alignment/situation. Express even more doubt regarding varcron's claim, then I have my reads list. Which I say is all accurate to what I thought at the time of posting.

I should have prefaced this, but I don't do a whole lot of "fronting" with my posts, I don't really have an overall "plan" throughout the day, and I don't think I change how I speak specifically in regards to what role I receive. Like, I might change my overall activity level and when I make specific claims, but I tend to just say what I think. Might not be the most optimal thing to do, but that's just how I talk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Continuing on, I then continue to express some frustration, specifically with people not responding to my wall post (seriously, how does that happen?)

I share my thoughts regarding PoD in response to vittae.

I did an iso on pod, which I forgot I did later in the day ngl.

then I did an iso on mizery, in which I concluded that she was goofy af.

then I did half of an iso on MM, in which I concluded that I kinda liked the guy.

ah then I got CFD'd right before my meeting, of which I was very, very, frustrated and annoyed about. Since I knew I wouldn't be available near the EoD. I have a bad history of being mislynched on day one, and I was just genuinely frustrated. Then I hopped back on after my meeting (on mobile) and self pres voted on PoD, this is when panic mode was sinking in, then I just panicked until end of day, I made my claim right near the end of day, and was face palming an hour or so after I hard claimed my role.

that was all that happened on day 1 from my point of view.

Interested in how you were trying to read Mizery. What was your actual read on her alignment besides "goofy"? Why did you focus on her being goofy instead of her alignment?

[Loldebite]

Can you explain the pink please?

Sure

so it might have been more of a dissociation from a mislynch than anything else

Making excuses on someone else's behalf, as I said in the following post, I know for a fact that s!MM does this. It might not actually be as AI as I think it is, because I'm not sure he doesn't do it as town.

I'm not so sure about this

Spreading doubt on a basis that looks really thin to me, invest cop is info which is info which is important.

meaning the investigator's results wouldn't even matter

Same issue

which is basically what is happening at the moment, for the record

This is MM saying I'm scum without him saying I'm scum, AND it's a twisted recounting of events, completely ignoring EoD 1.

That is just indicative of scum

More doubt spreading through quite the oversimplification. I mean I get that mizery's a good player, but not even considering the psychological stress of responsibility is still a bit doubtful.

Admitedly, I'm reading this after you've told us that she in fact avoids responsibility for NK, which makes it probably look worse than it was.

[Loldebite]

Deb can you talk to me about your read on Miz please?

Feel free to talk about your read on me if you'd like to, I'm more familiar with that one though.

Sure, what d'you wanna know ? The progression, where it stands, both, everything ?

Ain't much to talk about, you're never the lynch today from my POV, if I start having doubts again we'll see, but you'd probably die before that.

[Wiml]

Sure, what d'you wanna know ? The progression, where it stands, both, everything ?

Ain't much to talk about, you're never the lynch today from my POV, if I start having doubts again we'll see, but you'd probably die before that.

Specifically I want to know where it stands but if you could also answer for everything that'd be great.

In generally if you could just splurge as much of your solving thoughts in the thread as possible please. If you're town then you should vomit every little thought into the thread and make it absolutely impossible for anybody to misvote you today.

[Wiml]

I'll keep driving this home. If you are a villager in the PoE and especially if you are a villager in Deb/DW then you should be trying your absolute hardest to make it impossible for you to be seen as mafia. The way to do that isn't by defending yourself or attacking others - it's by solving in the thread and splurging every thought in as much detail as possible.

Go into excessive detail about everything. Make it impossible for anybody to think that you're anything but town. Do what mafia can't replicate.

[Wiml]

How does MM approach scumbuddies? Is he the type to come in and distance immediately at the start of D1?

[Wiml]

Sure



Making excuses on someone else's behalf, as I said in the following post, I know for a fact that s!MM does this. It might not actually be as AI as I think it is, because I'm not sure he doesn't do it as town.



Spreading doubt on a basis that looks really thin to me, invest cop is info which is info which is important.



Same issue



This is MM saying I'm scum without him saying I'm scum, AND it's a twisted recounting of events, completely ignoring EoD 1.



More doubt spreading through quite the oversimplification. I mean I get that mizery's a good player, but not even considering the psychological stress of responsibility is still a bit doubtful.

Admitedly, I'm reading this after you've told us that she in fact avoids responsibility for NK, which makes it probably look worse than it was.

For the last point about Miz's tied vote, something else I neglected to mention in MU meta.

MU is pretty laid back when it comes to things like this. You'll get people tying wagons for the fun of it, lots of memeing and trolling and occasionally straight up gamethrowing, lots of off topic discussion, lots of thread spamming (if there's not an upper cap you can expect individual players in competitive-ish scenarios to post upwards of 500 times a day phase). That's barely scratching the surface and not all relevant right now but the whole lax mentality in general and especially about letting things go to RNG is something that's probably notable to mention (which is part of why I didn't immediately think that Miz letting it rand was outing in a vacuum even if it was a confusing play to me within context even with my MU meta knowledge).

[Loldebite]

Specifically I want to know where it stands but if you could also answer for everything that'd be great.

In generally if you could just splurge as much of your solving thoughts in the thread as possible please. If you're town then you should vomit every little thought into the thread and make it absolutely impossible for anybody to misvote you today.

Fair point.

Historically I've had trouble reading mizery, so I had her as completely NULL/question mark for the vast majority of D1, as EoD approched I got confident she was town but the rand made me doubt it. At the start of D2 I was suspicious of her as a result and her firsts reactions didn't seem very towny to me to the point where I thought she was scum at one point, but that de-escalated quickly and I'm now quite confident that she's town, partly because I'm confident in your hability to read her, that you had her as town, and that I'm extremely confident you're town yourself.

Yeah, makes sense. I haven't taken nearly as much notes as I wish I had because I got lazy.

OH I JUST REMEMBERED THAT I PLAYED AN ACTUAL SCUM GAME ONCE, found out when reviewing FM notes. It was a very weird & bastard setup with 5 neutrals and no proper mafia team, and everyone that died had a 1 shot use of a gun that could :
- convert target to neutral ;
- kill target ;
- resurect you somehow I don't recall how exactly ;
- do nothing.

The resurection mech was incredibly awful to play with and I think pretty much everyone quickly lost interest. I'd link you to the game, but it was the first game played of deckmafia.games but the site is discontinued and AFAIK the games there are forever gone. Kinda doubt the game would've been interesting to look at, anyway, it really was a painful game. At one point I posted that (I wrote it down beforehands because I was at a point where I really didn't care about what'd happen much) :
"This game is a fucking nightmare, I would never have envisioned that the resurrection mechanic would be that much of a pain in the ass. It feels like we're making no progress, at all. Oh, and then you remember that resurrection doesn't conserve alignment so you realize that we're actually making negative progress.
Pretty sure 3Ps have better odds of winning than town, now, so just shoot me. Actually, you know what, just shoot me."

[Wiml]

Damn, the Deck Mafia site is down? Somehow that news never got to me. Although tbf that's partially because I had no interest in DM myself.

[Loldebite]

Damn, the Deck Mafia site is down? Somehow that news never got to me. Although tbf that's partially because I had no interest in DM myself.

Apparently died last december...

NGL that was my first DM ever and it's most certainly the last

[Wiml]

Thanks for the response Deb.

Ignoring my take on Miz (which is probably less confident than you're assuming - I'm not a historically great Miz reader), what do you feel about her so far?

Thoughts on her EoD1 in particular? That's by far the strongest thing I have on her being town rn but I want more opinions on it.

[Wiml]

I personally think that MM has posted well and had several micro towny moments.

He also gave by far the best responses yesterday to my D1 thoughts question although tbf that was partially an issue of communication on my end I think and not making it clear what I wanted people to post. Still, I felt like what he was saying was logically consistent and I could completely believe how he came to his stances and opinions even if I didn't necessarily agree.

Theres just nothing there that screams "this is always a villager" to me in the way that Miz's EoD1 possibly does and that's why I've been focusing on her over MM so far.

It's also just a lot easier to try to solve a player I know well and have been in games with as both alignments (Miz) than one I barely know at all (MM).

[Wiml]

@Marshmallow Marshall

What have you done this game that you either couldn't replicate as scum or that you wouldn't ever attempt to do as scum (as it would be bad play)?

You can assume that your scum partner is one of Death or Deb for answering this.

[Wiml]

Vote order is something we need to discuss:

The first two players to vote should crossvote each other. The game is over in a mafia victory is both players are town. This cross should almost always be Death/Deb on the basis of them mechanically and socially almost always containing at least 1 mafia.

From that point voting should be done in order of consensus most likely mafia to consensus least likely mafia.

This shouldn't be done last minute. As votes are cast, new info is revealed that may need time to be discussed and leaving it to the last minute risks town players possibly not bothering to vote at all which is a frustratingly common occurrence.

Also, once you cast your vote you should treat it as locked in (unless you take it back extremely quickly but be aware that misvoting at all can let the scum team quickly hammer and win). There is no town benefit to switching your votes once they're cast and you simply need to vote a villager once to immediately lose.

[Wiml]

Deb and Death should obviously be the first votes unless there's a good reason to believe that they shouldn't be the cross today.

I'm not sure who I'd like to vote third out of Miz and MM yet. I'd obviously like to vote last.

If we all can't agree on a voting order we can always all submit our preferred order and average it out to decide.

[Loldebite]

I guess I should want DW & MM to vote ASAP ?

[Loldebite]

Haven't really thought about it tbh

[Loldebite]

Thanks for the response Deb.

Ignoring my take on Miz (which is probably less confident than you're assuming - I'm not a historically great Miz reader), what do you feel about her so far?

Thoughts on her EoD1 in particular? That's by far the strongest thing I have on her being town rn but I want more opinions on it.

I don't recall how many games I've been in with mizery exactly, but in the one I remember best she was scum, and she was nowhere NEAR tryharding as much as she seemed to be near EoD 1. She was in president too but I have a hard time remembering everything james madison did from a "that's mizery" perspective and tbh I cba reviewing the entire game solely for that purpose.

Did I already mention that pod townreading me sounds like tmi but like badly because no one else is townreading me or was that someone else

Actual active solving

What Intel do you find from a pod v flip

more solvy probing

Did I already mention that pod townreading me sounds like tmi but like badly because no one else is townreading me or was that someone else

Vittae switching so comfortably onto me after confidently saying I'm a townread with better meta and familiarity with me is a bad look btw just for you all when I die

He sees I'm more of a ML this game and so calls me fourth in his "poe" of 3 that he thinks has one wolf

That looks a bit like AtE but I think it fits mizery's character and it's still solving.

Oh no I had votes on me I'm so pressured oh no what am I going to do

Most probably NAI because again it fits her character IMO but I want to think it's especially genuine

Wolfy throw ate

Calling DW out for the throw AtE

Vittae guide me

Kinda reminds me of how mizery acts when she's in a game with lumi, which I think is good looks ?

I'm overall not very confident in the read if I ignore your take on it, ngl. I've had terribly inaccurate reads on mizery AFAIK

[Wiml]

Regardless of if he is voting first or not, we should plan the votes so that @deathworlds always casts his vote when he shows up today.

We can't afford to all be sitting around waiting for him to can't the first vote if he won't show up again after that until just before EoD, if at all.

Also puts less pressure on him since he's sick which I totally get.

[Wiml]

I don't recall how many games I've been in with mizery exactly, but in the one I remember best she was scum, and she was nowhere NEAR tryharding as much as she seemed to be near EoD 1. She was in president too but I have a hard time remembering everything james madison did from a "that's mizery" perspective and tbh I cba reviewing the entire game solely for that purpose.

You're correct in that I have also never seen Miz try like EoD1 as scum. She seems to be pretty content to just blend in usually. Although tbf her town game was very similar for a long time as well and I'm not confident if it's an overall playstyle/ improvement thing or a town indicative thing now.

Actual active solving

Do you think active solving is something that is difficult for Miz to fake though?

That looks a bit like AtE but I think it fits mizery's character and it's still solving.

The shade on me is very mildly towny. Scum!Miz certain wants to try to pocket me as much as possible in this game.

Most probably NAI because again it fits her character IMO but I want to think it's especially genuine

The snarkiness is more of a town AI thing for her to my understanding.

Kinda reminds me of how mizery acts when she's in a game with lumi, which I think is good looks ?

Mostly NAI I'm guessing but I find this pretty amusing .

I'm overall not very confident in the read if I ignore your take on it, ngl. I've had terribly inaccurate reads on mizery AFAIK

Yeah, if you basically look at what I've written the best I have outside the obvious thing is a lot of low-level meta reasons that suggest that she's in her town game.

My general rule of thumb is to mostly discard low-level meta reasons on people in lylo / late game (I have some on MM as well so obviously some are wrong), they can easily be skewed by perspective / biased, puck up things that either aren't AI or can be replicated with mild improvement and are often just pretty =rand accurate when applied.

What about her EoD1? Do you think she's likely to actively let it rand if Death is her partner and just claimed investigator? Important context is that she was the second vote on the Death wagon at the point where the only wagon with >1 vote was Miz herself and that the whole Miz/Death w/w thing had just happened in the thread.

[Mizery]

vittae why are you still pretending that mm can be a wolf with a partneer who isnt death

[Wiml]

vittae why are you still pretending that mm can be a wolf with a partneer who isnt death

Did we not go through this multiple times?

There is a very likely mafia Redirector or Bartender in the setup.

Either of those invalidate Death's results.

Unless you're saying I'm wrong here but you seemed to agree with me after the second time I told you this.

[Wiml]

Did we not go through this multiple times?

There is a very likely mafia Redirector or Bartender in the setup.

Either of those invalidate Death's results.

Unless you're saying I'm wrong here but you seemed to agree with me after the second time I told you this.

The Operator is a Redirector basically.

[Wiml]

Or are you saying they're unaligned for non-mech reasons?

If so please tell me because that's incredibly important if you think there's a strong social unalign there.

[Wiml]

Please, Miz

I've tried really hard to try to get a read on your alignment and you've ignored all my questions since SoD2.

Then you come in D3 and just repeatedly ask me the same question while still ignoring my questions to you.

What are you doing? I was really excited to play with you this game but it's harder to work with you than it us with the player who's only available to post in the thread while I'm asleep.

[Wiml]

On the topic of Death's scans.

N1 - Deb, Tailor
N2 - MM, Cit

Assuming Death is town:

We know for a fact thanks to ikarus that MM was not targeted by a mafia coach driver on N2. This is possible to have happened on N1 with Deb but unlikely and basically just turns out the same way as an operator would.

In both cases there is a possible Operator, Bartender or Coward (I forgot this one but it's very unlikely Deb is a Coward and targeted their Tailor scum partner so in this case MM would be the Coward).

Tailor (Deb) + Any Role (Miz)
Tailor (Deb) + Coward (MM)
Tailor (Any Scum) + Operator/Coach Driver (Any Scum)
Any (Any Scum) + Bartender (Any Scum)

I think this is what it's narrowed down to in terms of scum roles in a town-Death world? So basically scum would need to have either a Bartender, a Tailor + Operator/Coach) combo or Deb to just be a Tailor (and MM a Coward if he's the partner).

[Mizery]

Please, Miz

I've tried really hard to try to get a read on your alignment and you've ignored all my questions since SoD2.

Then you come in D3 and just repeatedly ask me the same question while still ignoring my questions to you.

What are you doing? I was really excited to play with you this game but it's harder to work with you than it us with the player who's only available to post in the thread while I'm asleep.

I don't have a lot of free time and I know you shouldn't either, So I don't know why you keep asking me the same questions over again that I've already answered. It's a waste of both of our times.

[Mizery]

Especially with how much I've talked about things you should know i don't fully commit to mafia games ever and expecting me to do so just because you're in the game even tho i have little time as always is silly

[Wiml]

I don't have a lot of free time and I know you shouldn't either, So I don't know why you keep asking me the same questions over again that I've already answered. It's a waste of both of our times.

Just point me towards where you answered the questions then. I'm not asking a lot from you, I basically just want yo know about your EoD1.

[Wiml]

Especially with how much I've talked about things you should know i don't fully commit to mafia games ever and expecting me to do so just because you're in the game even tho i have little time as always is silly

I was hoping that you wouldn't ignore me completely after D1, yes.

I'm not asking you for a lot and I'm not asking for you to put alot of time in. I'm just asking for you to not explicitly ignore me.

[Loldebite]

You're correct in that I have also never seen Miz try like EoD1 as scum. She seems to be pretty content to just blend in usually. Although tbf her town game was very similar for a long time as well and I'm not confident if it's an overall playstyle/ improvement thing or a town indicative thing now.



Do you think active solving is something that is difficult for Miz to fake though?

Difficult, probably not, but would she bother ? I don't think so. I think we're both lazy like that.

What about her EoD1? Do you think she's likely to actively let it rand if Death is her partner and just claimed investigator? Important context is that she was the second vote on the Death wagon at the point where the only wagon with >1 vote was Miz herself and that the whole Miz/Death w/w thing had just happened in the thread.

I'll be honest : I have absolutely no fucking idea. I don't think it's likely but... /shrug

[Wiml]

I don't have a tonne to add until people start showing up.

Death/Deb > MM > Miz > Vittae is my current preferred voting order.