S-FM 348: Standoff

[Loldebite]

oh nevermind my last question to you lol

Ikarus, am I correct in my understanding that you are scumreading me because you think I'm wrong on Debbie? Also, what are your thoughts on the post I quoted from him, considering it basically answers your concern?

~~

Reading POD's posts, I remain unimpressed, but also feel like he's just being "the nice guy", remembering good memories about the site or something like that. That is not alignment indicative in itself, but it becomes scummy if it lasts too long without more elaborate content (considering his pushes, questions, etc. have been strictly defensive and borderline OMGUS-y so far, with a shallow "liking" of Vittae's reaction to his vote that isn't backed up by any other post in his ISO). Considering this, I am placing a pressure vote. I don't think we should lynch him just yet, but definetly think he is a little too comfortable with one vote on him.

-vote powerofdeath

Tssk, guess you can read after all, woohoo !

That push looks founded on bad reasons, PoD's interaction with me was much more than OMGSUS and clearly as defensive as you claim, cuz I wasn't pushing them nor even considering it.
From my POV PoD contributed in both greater quality and greater quantity than say, Mizery. What do you think of that slot, quite comfy at 0 votes ?

[Mizery]

Tbh I'm falling asleep on my keyboard so I should go away lol, but Mizery's "we're winning" is pinging me hard on the side of TMI. It's not like we have any particularly super promising leads at the moment, so I have doubts here, big doubts

Preliminary list of reads before sleep:

MM (duh)

Varcron (claim; there's nothing else for now, really, so he gets his own special category until we get into more mechanica stuff)

Vittae (seems skilled and relatively charismatic, and although they definetly have been trying to get things moving, this could easily be done as any alignment, so I remain vigilant even though they are towny)

Loldebite (solely because of the "what would scum claim" mech post, which isn't much, but which is something)

Ikarus (pending something to read him, more on this later)
POD (decaying into scum if nothing changes, but for now, he still has the benefit of the doubt)

Mizery (TMI?)
Deathworlds (still icky about the early mech post being performative-ish, nothing much said since then)

MM, all of your reads are basically "pending"

Your townread on Varcron is because of a PR claim (which you say is pending mechanical info)
Your townread on Vittae is pending pretty much anything, claiming it's because he's experienced and charismatic (and calling everything he's done NAI basically)
lol is a semi-micro read based on a single post (with the disclaimer that it means nothing to you really)
Ikarus you find yourself unable to read despite, in my opinion and in others, him being pretty towny and having a lot to go on in general
Your read on me is just "(TMI?)" which is honestly the most decisive read in your list
Death is another single post read but piggybacking on the claim that mech info is useless and seemingly choosing to not get out of that tunnel or talk about his reads post recently.

[Mizery]

Kay so let me get this straight.
You're quite convinced I'm scum and so does literally everyone else. My only contribution was a mechs talk where I literally showed that mass claiming on d1 sucked ass. And you wanna do just that ? Wtf ?

bucketstrat
bucketstrat
bucketstrat

[Mizery]

I do believe i will be at work for EoD and basically all of tomorrow it will be BUSY since it is pie day and we sell pies i am not excited but oh well

[Mizery]

Ikarusdk: This mans gives me ceko first game town vibes, and I could read ceko pretty well back in the day, this is my strongest town read.

even if this isn't great reasoning

[Mizery]

doesn't feel like obv tmiing ikarus town off of townreads he's getting but that doesn't mean much to me right now

[Loldebite]

Tbh I'm falling asleep on my keyboard so I should go away lol, but Mizery's "we're winning" is pinging me hard on the side of TMI. It's not like we have any particularly super promising leads at the moment, so I have doubts here, big doubts

Preliminary list of reads before sleep:

MM (duh)

Varcron (claim; there's nothing else for now, really, so he gets his own special category until we get into more mechanica stuff)

Vittae (seems skilled and relatively charismatic, and although they definetly have been trying to get things moving, this could easily be done as any alignment, so I remain vigilant even though they are towny)

Loldebite (solely because of the "what would scum claim" mech post, which isn't much, but which is something)

Ikarus (pending something to read him, more on this later)
POD (decaying into scum if nothing changes, but for now, he still has the benefit of the doubt)

Mizery (TMI?)
Deathworlds (still icky about the early mech post being performative-ish, nothing much said since then)

Well, uh, thought your read on me had decayed already but I read back and I've no clue why I thought that.

Yeah no, something's off.

There's no way you've seen me at the far end of everyone's readslist and was content with putting me in the TR range for a mere mech post all the while saying "it ain't much, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯". Especially when your bottom read is based solely on another mech post and honestly the differences are not that great. Definitely not great enough that you can wave your hand and say "Nah all those 6 people are wrong, I can feel it !".

[Loldebite]

There is a good chance that if Lold flip scum, MM is their partner that is trying to derail/form a counterwagon to save their partner.

There's a good chance that MM is trying to pocket me. He's done that before.

[Loldebite]

bucketstrat
bucketstrat
bucketstrat

... Okay ? Is there any reason you're refusing to engage with me ?

[Loldebite]

MM, all of your reads are basically "pending"

Your townread on Varcron is because of a PR claim (which you say is pending mechanical info)
Your townread on Vittae is pending pretty much anything, claiming it's because he's experienced and charismatic (and calling everything he's done NAI basically)
lol is a semi-micro read based on a single post (with the disclaimer that it means nothing to you really)
Ikarus you find yourself unable to read despite, in my opinion and in others, him being pretty towny and having a lot to go on in general
Your read on me is just "(TMI?)" which is honestly the most decisive read in your list
Death is another single post read but piggybacking on the claim that mech info is useless and seemingly choosing to not get out of that tunnel or talk about his reads post recently.

Also, I should mention : as much as I want not to, I really like this post.

[Wiml]

Morning folks

[Wiml]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...)-President-II (james madison)

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...ection-Day-2-0

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/37434 (twicevitational)

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/36802 (candyland)

you should have seen the sorc game and i don't have any other games besides these that are any newer, which is why I don't think they'll be useful to you because I could have sworn you at least claimed to go through some of them.

Yeah thanks anyway.

I'd expected you to have some more recent stuff lol.

[Wiml]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post611844

My most recent game I finished in 2016. Funnily enough its probably why I quit the site in the first place. I think I was scum here.

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post604019

The game before that, I was town. (those 2 games are from 2016, so I was gone longer than I thought, almost 7 years)

Appreciate the links.

Ftr I believe the site is way, way more chill than it was when you left.

[Mizery]

Yeah thanks anyway.

I'd expected you to have some more recent stuff lol.

smh you know i dont play as often as i used to

[Wiml]

Ikarus is continuing to put out content that is very impressive for a villager playing their 3rd ever game of ww let alone putting out this level of analysis and depth of thought if they randed wolf.

While it's good play to always review your townreads, I'd be very surprised if ika could pull this off as a wolf without any other mafia-related experiences.

(Tbf I did have a breakout wolf game at my 1st ever FM game but at least in that case I had a good amount of non-FM mafia background that was transferable, ikarus hasn't mentioned anything of the sort and has made a few comments that make me think they still don't have a lot of experience yet - not really understanding wolves bussing in the lazzy game comes to mind - so I believe that I'm in the right ballpark here.)

(Also ika I know you didn't seem confident at first but you're doing a good job regardless of your alignment so just keep it up)

[Wiml]

smh you know i dont play as often as i used to

Pretty sure when I asked for your meta you hadn't corrected me yet and I thought you were on a huge mafia streak?

(In my defence I did read your post I just didn't get what you were talking about when you mentioned 50/50 rands until after you told me it was to do with this site whoops)

[Mizery]

right now i'm 4/3 which means next game will be a mafia rand for all you going to play next game

[Loldebite]

Ikarus is continuing to put out content that is very impressive for a villager playing their 3rd ever game of ww let alone putting out this level of analysis and depth of thought if they randed wolf.

While it's good play to always review your townreads, I'd be very surprised if ika could pull this off as a wolf without any other mafia-related experiences.

(Tbf I did have a breakout wolf game at my 1st ever FM game but at least in that case I had a good amount of non-FM mafia background that was transferable, ikarus hasn't mentioned anything of the sort and has made a few comments that make me think they still don't have a lot of experience yet - not really understanding wolves bussing in the lazzy game comes to mind - so I believe that I'm in the right ballpark here.)

(Also ika I know you didn't seem confident at first but you're doing a good job regardless of your alignment so just keep it up)

I... Can't say I agree tbh. His readslist is basically "debbie wrote a wall in 4 minutes so he's scum" and "MM is scum because debbie is scum". It IS content, but I fail to see how that's impressive. None of the more recent posts felt particularly interesting either, except maybe the part about PoD and AtE.

This feels as much as a pocketing attempt as MM's comments about me tbh.

[Wiml]

Anyways I heard we 2wre gonna bucket? Hardclaim civ

Miz WTF

WTF Miz

[Mizery]

Miz WTF

WTF Miz

bucketstrat
bucketstrat
bucketstrat

[Loldebite]

Guess it's not me then

fucking hell I hate the renegade meta

[Loldebite]

Btw do you reckon it's better to mislynch now or tomorrow ?

[Mizery]

Btw do you reckon it's better to mislynch now or tomorrow ?

Personally I'd reccomend not doing it at all, but maybe that's just me

[Wiml]

I... Can't say I agree tbh. His readslist is basically "debbie wrote a wall in 4 minutes so he's scum" and "MM is scum because debbie is scum". It IS content, but I fail to see how that's impressive. None of the more recent posts felt particularly interesting either, except maybe the part about PoD and AtE.

This feels as much as a pocketing attempt as MM's comments about me tbh.

I generally believe in being nice to beginners who are trying their best and not too much use in pocketing ikarus anyway when they have me as a top town already.

But to address the actual points here - I get that a lot of ika's points aren't the level of solving quality you'd expect from an experienced player but ika isn't an experienced player. The question isn't "is this too bad to come from them as a villager" because the answer is no, ika has made some very dubious points and that's to be expected from a player who is still learning. The question is "does this player have TMI? Does this player know everyone else's alignments already or are they actively trying to find them out? Do they genuinely believe in what they're saying?". In this case I believe ika is very likely to be genuinely trying to uncover alignments unburdened by TMI and genuinely believes in what they're doing even if to a more experienced player some of their lines of inquiry look fruitless.

I feel a bit like you're getting caught up on "good" posts vs "bad" posts instead of towny posts vs wolfy posts.

[Wiml]

Guess it's not me then

fucking hell I hate the renegade meta

Renegade meta?

[Wiml]

Personally I'd reccomend not doing it at all, but maybe that's just me

Pretty hot take ngl.

[Wiml]

@ikarusdk NAI stands for not/non-alignment indicative. Just means null, usually referring to a specific behaviour or post that isn't either towny or scummy.

[Wiml]

bucketstrat
bucketstrat
bucketstrat

Didn't you hate bucket in champs though?

[Wiml]

Did I convert you to my buckety ways?

[Wiml]

Vittae: I need to see more posting before I can firmly plant a read down.

We should all vote Vittae to make them post more.

[Mizery]

Didn't you hate bucket in champs though?

long story that i wrote out and deleted short, i don't like a lot of things in champs because they lead to skewed voting/ranking

[Mizery]

im gonna wake up for work in three hours

[Wiml]

long story that i wrote out and deleted short, i don't like a lot of things in champs because they lead to skewed voting/ranking

Yeah I agree with you there.

In all seriousness bucket in champs was terrible and was part of the reason finals was so poor that season.

[Wiml]

Deb, got a reads list atm?

[Wiml]

FOR FUCKS SAKE CAN YOU READ THE GAME BEFORE POSTING STUPID SHIT ?

My LITERAL LAST POST was answering that question already

This is EXACTLY the kind of plausible shit spreading that you do as scum lol

I've been burned by AtE before but the frustration here reads towny.

[Mizery]

Yeah lol is town for me too and I'm bumping MM down to my wolf tier in trade

[Mizery]

I refuse to call them debbie

[Wiml]

Totally missed ikarus saying they have experienced in starcraft arcade mafia.

Most of the points of my townread still apply but I'm much more wary of their wolf range now than I was previously.

[Wiml]

Ika is still my top town my read on him has just gone from "this would be basically impossible for ika to be able to fake" to "this would be very unlikely for ika to be able to fake".

[Wiml]

Ftr on why I think Varcron's claim is towny.

I broadly agree on what some others (notably death) have said wrt it being a good play as a wolf. But do I think it's likely that wolf-Varcron immediately locks himself into a specific PR claim? I don't know Varcron at all besides reading the lazzy game (where they claimed town PR immediately but because it was mech optimal to do so in that setup due to no nightkills) but most wolves are pretty hesitant to lock themselves into a claim so early.

I think it broadly depends on the specifics of Varcron's role and if it's realistic for then to have it or not which is something that can only really be discussed after Varcron full claims.

[Wiml]

More to add but it's not worth spending too much time on Varcron when it's heavily influenced by mech we don't have yet.

[Wiml]

Miz did you really (confidently) think we were winning the game when you were pushing for bucket or just memeing?

[Wiml]

Miz is a complicated read for me. To get it out of the way, I don't like the bucket sequence of posts from a gameplay perspective and I have questions about that much later but I also think they're very in character for town-Miz so I'm ignoring them for now.

Solving-wise, she is doing significantly better this game than I've ever seen her as a wolf. She tends to be quite avoidance of (fake)solving as a wolf and in cases where she does knuckle down and try to post content it is of a noticeably lower quality than it is in this game.

While I like Miz's solving posts and general "solving is a higher priority than memeing" attitude this game there's no single thing that stands out to me as clearing from her and I'm aware that her wolf range could be better than I'm giving her credit for given the reasonable amount of time that's passed since the last wolf game of hers I've seen.

I have her as likely town overall (with some reservations about if this play is within her range and if she's trying to indirectly pocket me by playing in a way she expects I'll townread but I'm sceptical she could really pull off a wolf game the way she's playing here).

[Wiml]

Tl:dr Miz's play here is strongly resembles her "tryhard" towngame (which I've never seen her get close to replicating as a wolf) and is very different to her typical "tryhard" wolf game so she's proooobably just town, she just doesn't have any one specific clearing thing that I could use to lock her in as a high confidence read.

[Wiml]

Will look at her more critically if it's difficult to find 2 wolves in MM/Death/deb/PoD when I look at those 4 in more detail.

[Loldebite]

Personally I'd reccomend not doing it at all, but maybe that's just me

Damn that's a good idea ! How did I not think about it in my previous games ?!

[Loldebite]

I generally believe in being nice to beginners who are trying their best and not too much use in pocketing ikarus anyway when they have me as a top town already.

But to address the actual points here - I get that a lot of ika's points aren't the level of solving quality you'd expect from an experienced player but ika isn't an experienced player. The question isn't "is this too bad to come from them as a villager" because the answer is no, ika has made some very dubious points and that's to be expected from a player who is still learning. The question is "does this player have TMI? Does this player know everyone else's alignments already or are they actively trying to find them out? Do they genuinely believe in what they're saying?". In this case I believe ika is very likely to be genuinely trying to uncover alignments unburdened by TMI and genuinely believes in what they're doing even if to a more experienced player some of their lines of inquiry look fruitless.

I feel a bit like you're getting caught up on "good" posts vs "bad" posts instead of towny posts vs wolfy posts.

There's a difference between being nice and being lenient, I guess it is a thin one.

Ika's accusation did feel legit but that's the kind of stuff that scum love to pick up on to spread doubt and paranoia. Admittedly, that's very likely not what ika's been doing here, but I'm fairly confident that a newbie scum would also be delighted to have (seemingly) valid reasons to cause a mislynch and that's why I wasn't convinced.

[Loldebite]

Deb, got a reads list atm?

I think I mentioned rapidly where my reads were at when I replied to ika's list. If I am to make another one it'll have to wait just a bit - meeting going on soon and I probably won't have time to fully catch up before that. I'll get it done asap afterwards, since EoD is getting close

[Loldebite]

I refuse to call them debbie

One day you'll yield and join us

[Loldebite]

I've been burned by AtE before but the frustration here reads towny.

Ehh I'm glad to hear that don't get me wrong but...

Yeah lol is town for me too and I'm bumping MM down to my wolf tier in trade

Okay that's what I like to hear. That's gonna be interesting, imma read that closely.