S-FM 196: QT 3.14

[BananaCucho]

Yeah I'm not in the "meta is for plebs" camp. Meta can be a pretty powerful tool for predictable players.

[BananaCucho]

Yeah I'm not in the "meta is for plebs" camp. Meta can be a pretty powerful tool for predictable players.

Reading predictable players that is

[Unknown1234]

I think you either misread this post or quoted the wrong post.. In this post I pushed on Dukk and Banana. Nothing was related to you other than talking about it being impossible to get a hard read on you based on your first few posts..

But what doesn't make sense is that the entire message were quotes of what I've said, so why do you think you were talking about Duck and Banana? If you don't believe me go look at the post (I sent the post # and which quote it was) because it wasn't something I said but u wrote it as if it did

[Helz]

Meta seems to be a large component of reads on Fire.

I greatly dislike meta reads because a good player can manipulate their meta to get more town read making them easy to break. But more importantly they can not really be explained in order to share your reasoning with the town. All a player can do with meta reads is say "There is this consistent play style normally as X alignment and he has deviated from it here." When saying that you are comparing some obscure generalization of their play its not something that can really be measured or observed. Just attempting to do so requires a player to identify all the games you have played with the player you are meta reading and then read through those games and guess if that could be a conclusion drawn from those games.
And this is why I value soul reads over meta reads

[Unknown1234]

You are right. I will post a read on MattZed.



I really am extremely confident that you were lying about your level of certainty on that read. Its impossible to form strong reads from a few 1 line troll posts. Look at back at his posts.

This is what you formed a hardcore scum read with. Look at that from my perspective. I have a little bit of experience as a player and I know that it is totally impossible to get a hard read from that unless there was some kind of secret code passed in there somewhere. I do believe you lied about your read and that is something you should easily be able to recognize from my perspective here.

I did not know that Day chat goes away after D1 when I said that. And I do not put much value in matching lines of thought in this kind of setup. The argument that same perspective = same alignment relates to this situation only if scum has no inclination to scum hunt. They do, there is no difference between them and the town other than their win condition. In normal games Scum is informed and town is uninformed and you can use this gap to scum hunt. That just does not exist here which is a massive difference.
I have every intention of maintaining my position and attempting to force Banana to participate in the game at a higher level.

Apologies, it is the 5th quote in your message not the 4th.

[BananaCucho]

I greatly dislike meta reads because a good player can manipulate their meta to get more town read making them easy to break. But more importantly they can not really be explained in order to share your reasoning with the town. All a player can do with meta reads is say "There is this consistent play style normally as X alignment and he has deviated from it here." When saying that you are comparing some obscure generalization of their play its not something that can really be measured or observed. Just attempting to do so requires a player to identify all the games you have played with the player you are meta reading and then read through those games and guess if that could be a conclusion drawn from those games.
And this is why I value soul reads over meta reads

Well meta shouldn't be the only reason for reads but it helps, especially early on. Fire feels like town Fire and is playing how I expect town Fire to play and I don't see anything scummy from him thusfar to make me doubt that.

[Helz]

But what doesn't make sense is that the entire message were quotes of what I've said, so why do you think you were talking about Duck and Banana? If you don't believe me go look at the post (I sent the post # and which quote it was) because it wasn't something I said but u wrote it as if it did

Yeah, I am looking at it now. You are reading it wrong.

There were a bunch of quotes from you in there because I was pointing out how insane it was to say you have a hard read after your first posts.

I'm really missing the presence of.....

-vote BananaCucho

Don't lie. TimeForce*********

Day1 confession. Too soon... Too soon...

Moo. My vote was up top

Those right there. It was me pushing the idea that Duckk was lying about his level of confidence in his 'read.' I still maintain that him saying he has some kind of hard read from those posts is total bullshit and suspicious in the manner he presented it. I am just questioning if he is lying for his ego and was trying to get some kind of reaction read or something, or if he was lying to make himself appear to be hunting in a way that he is not/mislynch you (From his perspective).

The next quote of yours was you asking a question and me responding to a question. You should reread the post

[Unknown1234]

Okay, so I see what your saying there.

My problem is with this Quote, I don't think I understand.

Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
Did you not give mattzed the same pass for reasons you said you would not state? Shouldn’t you be considering a world where she is town since both of you feel so strong in reading mattzed as town?

I don't get this quote because I didn't write it. Why does it say I said that?

[Unknown1234]

Well meta shouldn't be the only reason for reads but it helps, especially early on. Fire feels like town Fire and is playing how I expect town Fire to play and I don't see anything scummy from him thusfar to make me doubt that.

So then why do you think I'm scum?

[Helz]

Okay, so I see what your saying there.

My problem is with this Quote, I don't think I understand.

Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
Did you not give mattzed the same pass for reasons you said you would not state? Shouldn’t you be considering a world where she is town since both of you feel so strong in reading mattzed as town?

I don't get this quote because I didn't write it. Why does it say I said that?

You probably did write it. I'm not going to go digging through the game to confirm. I will admit its 'possible' I copy/pasted your quote tags onto the post by mistake. But even if thats the case its totally a moot point. There is nothing negative or positive about the quote. Its just a question I tagged to give context to my answer.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I am concerned with Banana's Fire read. She is partially reading him town for some trap, that I thought was more extensive than it actually was. This would be fine, but she seems to have completely missed a REAL trap I set earlier that I know she should have picked up on. This on top of her pocketing me which would be the correct player choice for her to pocket based on my thoughts of the players in the game, are having me considering flipping my end of day vote to lynch onto banana. I still feel like shit, so I will go into this further later tonight if possible, but for the mean time:

No lynches for today: (imo)
Kovath
Helz

Middle of the road?
Mattzed
Myself

High priority, and subject to changed based on their end of day 1 plays:
Unknown
Banana
Fire

I think if helz is mafia he has been beneficial enough that we keep him alive. A lot of people don't agree with that line of thinking, but I feel he has been pushing a towny agenda and rereading the game multiple times, and has earned a spot into day2.

Overall I still like banana's play, there is just two specific things I have noticed that I am not sure town banana would have said/overlooked.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Just an fyi helz, when I did my early ISO on you, your post references were slightly off (At least in the fire iso at the start of the game they were).

[BananaCucho]

So then why do you think I'm scum?

You haven't been reading my posts have you?

[BananaCucho]

Overall I still like banana's play, there is just two specific things I have noticed that I am not sure town banana would have said/overlooked.

This line of thinking does not apply in a game where scum do not know their partners. Scum should be scum hunting alongside town to find their partner to either team up with them or lynch them, so if there's things you think I've overlooked then they would have to be in regards to one specific person and I would have had to overlook them to the point that I'm confident they are scum.

Given scum + town are all uninformed, it doesn't really make sense to read something missed or overlooked as town or scum play.

[Unknown1234]

You haven't been reading my posts have you?

Wrong question to ask.

Why is your vote on me? If your applying pressure you actually need to do something that pressures me.

[BananaCucho]

Wrong question to ask.

Why is your vote on me? If your applying pressure you actually need to do something that pressures me.

I have answered this question twice already, the second time expanding on the first. I will not repeat myself a third time. Read my posts.

And I'm pretty sure you feel pressure even if you don't want it to seem like it.

[Helz]

Just an fyi helz, when I did my early ISO on you, your post references were slightly off (At least in the fire iso at the start of the game they were).

Well. Shit happens when you get fucked up : )
Also if you scum read me you should not be telling me that you are ok with me living until D2. At least pretend to be willing to lynch me to apply some pressure and keep me in bad enough standing with the other players that I can be lynched on the following days. That above post kinda made me feel like you could be scum poking me to see if I am also scum..

You haven't been reading my posts have you?

Took the words out of my mouth

[Helz]

@Banana
Any thoughts on this? I kind of expected some kind of comment from you about it.

Let me clarify.

#141
Gives MZ a town read for saying "This reeks of sheep, which town have no incentive tward at this point"
Pushes against pressure on Duckk saying she does not agree with my reasoning followed by voting me
Defends Duck giving him town cred for calling a 1v1

Giving MZ town cred for that post was really out of place. Voting me for not agreeing with my reasoning without any reasoning is also odd and then pulling pressure off Duck and defending him? All questionable actions I do not see coming from a player of your caliber.

#169, #172, #176
She 'kinda' answers 'some' of the questions I asked in post #149. Some of the questions she seems to blow off and the ones she does answer either avoids giving detail on reasoning or just restates what I was questioning in the first place with no clarification. Also gives a 'null to slight town lean' for Unknown

#178
Restates a "Slight town lean" on Unknown while saying 'I don't scum read Duckk for his push on you'

#194
Says she is comfortable town reading Duckk

#264
She responds to my reasoning (216) avoiding my point by simply saying she does not give free passes
She Townreads FireBringer for what she assumed was a very dumb trap

#269, 271
She calls duck putting me at L1 Null with justification

#276
She uses a strawman defense with a hostile tone after I poked her for contributions

#285, 286
Says she scum reads me and town reads too many people; then casts a vote on Unknown stating that he only has 1 vote

I will point out that she had stated him as a town lean twice earlier in the game and chose to vote a player she town reads over a player she scum reads.

#290
I ask her what her read on Unknown is and she states it is 'Mostly Nullish' with no reasoning
(Town for Fire, Duckk and Matt; Scum Lean on me, Null on Unknown and Kovath) The read has apparently changed

#294
When Kovath questions her vote she says her reason is to put more pressure on him so that she can better evaluate him

#298
Town reads Duckk

So what I see here is a pattern of inconsistency in your 'reads'. There is also a habit of giving town cred for the strangest reasons and giving out town cred/defending players 10 times as often as poking players for scummy behavior. There is also an almost blatant desire to avoid providing reasoning in posts. I feel like you are putting almost no effort into your reads based on the odd things you are pointing out; that the positions you are taking are more of hip shot reactions that when questioned about you avoid providing satisfactory answers that would explain your line of thought simply because there was not much of one to begin with. I think you just want to float by until the private chats start.

On a side note don't take any of this personally. Its slot directed

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Helz you are in my town circle, I am saying that IF you are mafia, you have done enough to be town, but I agree to what you are saying in general. I did say I wanted to lynch you, but because of what you contributed I switched you to my town circle.

@banana the thing I was saying you overlooked was the trap I set. Which is relevant because you were aware of traps fire made. The reason it is important is because fire's trap was kind of him saying "mafia you should get lynched", and mine actually was a trap that could catch scum (at least in my mind, we can discuss this further when I say what it was and my reasoning behind it.)

[BananaCucho]

@Banana
Any thoughts on this? I kind of expected some kind of comment from you about it.

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read this because I was annoyed at you. Gimmie a minute.

[BananaCucho]

Helz you are in my town circle, I am saying that IF you are mafia, you have done enough to be town, but I agree to what you are saying in general. I did say I wanted to lynch you, but because of what you contributed I switched you to my town circle.

@banana the thing I was saying you overlooked was the trap I set. Which is relevant because you were aware of traps fire made. The reason it is important is because fire's trap was kind of him saying "mafia you should get lynched", and mine actually was a trap that could catch scum (at least in my mind, we can discuss this further when I say what it was and my reasoning behind it.)

If you're referring to you saying "lynch me first then unknown" as the trap for "falling for fire's trap" I do not consider fire's trap a good trap nor you a bad player that would fall for it. In order for me to scum read you for that I would have to consider you as foxtrot tier. Like Fire later admitted, scum have no actual incentive to try to get lynched.

[Helz]

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read this because I was annoyed at you. Gimmie a minute.

I kinda got that. At the end I made a point to say its slot directed not at you personally.

And take your time. Im going to take the puppy up to PetCo for some toys. Will take a bit

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

If you're referring to you saying "lynch me first then unknown" as the trap for "falling for fire's trap" I do not consider fire's trap a good trap nor you a bad player that would fall for it. In order for me to scum read you for that I would have to consider you as foxtrot tier. Like Fire later admitted, scum have no actual incentive to try to get lynched.

Way of course bruh. Ill explain it later, so I guess well come back to it.

[BananaCucho]

Let me clarify.

#141
Gives MZ a town read for saying "This reeks of sheep, which town have no incentive tward at this point"
Pushes against pressure on Duckk saying she does not agree with my reasoning followed by voting me
Defends Duck giving him town cred for calling a 1v1

Giving MZ town cred for that post was really out of place. Voting me for not agreeing with my reasoning without any reasoning is also odd and then pulling pressure off Duck and defending him? All questionable actions I do not see coming from a player of your caliber.

#169, #172, #176
She 'kinda' answers 'some' of the questions I asked in post #149. Some of the questions she seems to blow off and the ones she does answer either avoids giving detail on reasoning or just restates what I was questioning in the first place with no clarification. Also gives a 'null to slight town lean' for Unknown

#178
Restates a "Slight town lean" on Unknown while saying 'I don't scum read Duckk for his push on you'

#194
Says she is comfortable town reading Duckk

#264
She responds to my reasoning (216) avoiding my point by simply saying she does not give free passes
She Townreads FireBringer for what she assumed was a very dumb trap

#269, 271
She calls duck putting me at L1 Null with justification

#276
She uses a strawman defense with a hostile tone after I poked her for contributions

#285, 286
Says she scum reads me and town reads too many people; then casts a vote on Unknown stating that he only has 1 vote

I will point out that she had stated him as a town lean twice earlier in the game and chose to vote a player she town reads over a player she scum reads.

#290
I ask her what her read on Unknown is and she states it is 'Mostly Nullish' with no reasoning
(Town for Fire, Duckk and Matt; Scum Lean on me, Null on Unknown and Kovath) The read has apparently changed

#294
When Kovath questions her vote she says her reason is to put more pressure on him so that she can better evaluate him

#298
Town reads Duckk

So what I see here is a pattern of inconsistency in your 'reads'. There is also a habit of giving town cred for the strangest reasons and giving out town cred/defending players 10 times as often as poking players for scummy behavior. There is also an almost blatant desire to avoid providing reasoning in posts. I feel like you are putting almost no effort into your reads based on the odd things you are pointing out; that the positions you are taking are more of hip shot reactions that when questioned about you avoid providing satisfactory answers that would explain your line of thought simply because there was not much of one to begin with. I think you just want to float by until the private chats start.

On a side note don't take any of this personally. Its slot directed

Part of towns job is to town clear players and the other part is scum hunt. I do have a lot of town reads ATM and given I had 3 town reads, a slight town lean, a null read and a scum read, I decided to put pressure on the town lean to see what more I could learn from Unknown.

My vote on you wasn't doing anything useful with as much time was left, so why not use it to try to figure out Unknown? I could have also voted Kovath since he was null, but one vote wasn't enough to pressure him so I went Unknown.

[Firebringer]

I greatly dislike meta reads because a good player can manipulate their meta to get more town read making them easy to break. But more importantly they can not really be explained in order to share your reasoning with the town. All a player can do with meta reads is say "There is this consistent play style normally as X alignment and he has deviated from it here." When saying that you are comparing some obscure generalization of their play its not something that can really be measured or observed. Just attempting to do so requires a player to identify all the games you have played with the player you are meta reading and then read through those games and guess if that could be a conclusion drawn from those games.
And this is why I value soul reads over meta reads

I am soul reading you as scum.
What you say about that Helz?
Your play thus far has reminded me quit a bit of Illuminati game, you seemed townish, but your posts seemed off. You made cases on players, you pointed to players being scummy but it didn't seem genuine.

Lot of what you have said hasn't indicated anything, but your tone. Its setting scumdar off.

[BananaCucho]

I am soul reading you as scum.
What you say about that Helz?
Your play thus far has reminded me quit a bit of Illuminati game, you seemed townish, but your posts seemed off. You made cases on players, you pointed to players being scummy but it didn't seem genuine.

Lot of what you have said hasn't indicated anything, but your tone. Its setting scumdar off.

Would you be down for lynching Helz? I would much rather prefer him over Unknown or Duck

[Firebringer]

Would you be down for lynching Helz? I would much rather prefer him over Unknown or Duck

Yes, I would be down for lynching him.

[Helz]

I am soul reading you as scum.
What you say about that Helz?
Your play thus far has reminded me quit a bit of Illuminati game, you seemed townish, but your posts seemed off. You made cases on players, you pointed to players being scummy but it didn't seem genuine.

Lot of what you have said hasn't indicated anything, but your tone. Its setting scumdar off.

I would say that I would like to see you point out specific instances where you feel my 'tone' comes from a scum perspective. I would also say that my play in that Illuminati game was to go after the aggressive players to discredit and silence them. In this game a large portion of my push on Banana has been to instigate aggression from her and draw out heavier interaction. I feel like there are very few similarities between my play here and my play in that game to the extent that you could just be name dropping some game I was in as scum to create the appearance of a scum read.

[Helz]

Would you be down for lynching Helz? I would much rather prefer him over Unknown or Duck

After your response I think I am going to leave my vote on you for the end of day. You didn't even bother trying to say that you were not intentionally being vague and barely answer questions. A lot of that push was not that you town read people, but why. The things you are giving town cred for just do not make sense. And now you want to lynch me without so much as pointing to anything I am doing and saying how it could be scummy?

Yes, I would be down for lynching him.

Keep your erotic asphyxiation fantasies about me to yourself

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

@Unknown1234

Can you give your current reads on Banana, Fire, and Helz?

[Unknown1234]

@Unknown1234

Can you give your current reads on Banana, Fire, and Helz?

I feel Banana as Scum. I am starting to shift my opinion on Fire towards being a town, and I still think Helz is town.

I would rather vote Banana over Helz if needed.

[Unknown1234]

-unvote

I coulda swore I did this earlier.

[Helz]

Sense we are getting into our last 24 hours I think it would be a good idea for each play to present some kind of reads list with reasoning. The more in depth the better. I anticipate in the private chats referencing a lot of the D1 material so having everyone lock in their reads gives more tangible material to reference back to. And it will also allow people to triangulate reads off their town peggs to help decide a lynch target heading into the end of day.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I feel Banana as Scum. I am starting to shift my opinion on Fire towards being a town, and I still think Helz is town.

I would rather vote Banana over Helz if needed.

can you expand on all 3 reads?

[MattZed]

My apologies for not being as active in the second 24 hours of day; my sleep schedule is all kinds of messed up.

Helz is right that now is the time to be determining a lynch. My current instinct right now is to lynch Banana. From what I recall, her reads seemed to be fairly shallow, doing things like giving Fire towncred for the incredibly basic scum trap. It's not a strong alignment indicator, but I do find scum Banana more likely than town Banana to give shallow reads. I know Banana is very confident, for good reason, in her ability to get people to vote with her. A town Banana would want to find scum and then use this ability to lynch them, while a scum Banana would just use it to direct votes away from her, (and anyone she thought was her ally) and has less incentive to actually find scum in directing the lynch.

I'm also somewhat more comfortable with a Banana lynch based on her attitude this game. I think it was anti-productive when she swore at Helz, and she's been seeming less invested in this game, probably due to Overwatch's release. We're going to need a lot of activity to keep up the night chats, and Unknown has been stepping up in a way that makes me less want him as the default "activity lynch."

And as much as I hate to say it, my instincts partially depend on host meta: I'm pretty sure Calix doesn't pick the roles list by one-shot randomization. Based on who I know she's played with, I suspect she considers BananaCucho and Helz to be the best players in this game. (I'd also pick Kovath as being a very high-caliber player, but I'm not sure Calix is familiar enough with him) Since she's not doing one-shot pure randomization, I doubt she'd allow those two to be on a scum team together. To a significantly lesser extent, I also doubt that she'd put them on a town team together, as this could also be "unfair" by making the scum team entirely of less-experienced players. The BC-Helz interactions, notably the actively voting each other, lead me to suspect they don't believe they're scumbuddies. If they're a town-scum pair, I'm much more inclined, at the moment, to think Helz is the town and BC the scum. On the other hand, if either of them flipped scum, I'd automatically be much more trusting of the other. If one flipped town, I'd slightly doubt the other being town aligned. In other words, a BC lynch has a higher EV for me because of the information it would give about Helz' alignment.

I'm going to do some full ISOs before officially casting a vote. There's no reason to be purposefully lazy on D1 in this setup.

[BananaCucho]

Like I said if people want to lynch me because I'm "less invested in the game" I will lose no sleep over it.

MZ I play overwatch a few hours of the day before bed. But I have a 2 year old and a newborn to take care of so sure, if you wanna be comfortable lynching me because this game isn't my top priority, go for it. I'll just take a break after this because I can't keep up with the aggro style you all are used to.

I am down for lynching Helz or Unknown.

[Firebringer]

My apologies for not being as active in the second 24 hours of day; my sleep schedule is all kinds of messed up.

Helz is right that now is the time to be determining a lynch. My current instinct right now is to lynch Banana. From what I recall, her reads seemed to be fairly shallow, doing things like giving Fire towncred for the incredibly basic scum trap. It's not a strong alignment indicator, but I do find scum Banana more likely than town Banana to give shallow reads. I know Banana is very confident, for good reason, in her ability to get people to vote with her. A town Banana would want to find scum and then use this ability to lynch them, while a scum Banana would just use it to direct votes away from her, (and anyone she thought was her ally) and has less incentive to actually find scum in directing the lynch.

I'm also somewhat more comfortable with a Banana lynch based on her attitude this game. I think it was anti-productive when she swore at Helz, and she's been seeming less invested in this game, probably due to Overwatch's release. We're going to need a lot of activity to keep up the night chats, and Unknown has been stepping up in a way that makes me less want him as the default "activity lynch."

And as much as I hate to say it, my instincts partially depend on host meta: I'm pretty sure Calix doesn't pick the roles list by one-shot randomization. Based on who I know she's played with, I suspect she considers BananaCucho and Helz to be the best players in this game. (I'd also pick Kovath as being a very high-caliber player, but I'm not sure Calix is familiar enough with him) Since she's not doing one-shot pure randomization, I doubt she'd allow those two to be on a scum team together. To a significantly lesser extent, I also doubt that she'd put them on a town team together, as this could also be "unfair" by making the scum team entirely of less-experienced players. The BC-Helz interactions, notably the actively voting each other, lead me to suspect they don't believe they're scumbuddies. If they're a town-scum pair, I'm much more inclined, at the moment, to think Helz is the town and BC the scum. On the other hand, if either of them flipped scum, I'd automatically be much more trusting of the other. If one flipped town, I'd slightly doubt the other being town aligned. In other words, a BC lynch has a higher EV for me because of the information it would give about Helz' alignment.

I'm going to do some full ISOs before officially casting a vote. There's no reason to be purposefully lazy on D1 in this setup.

Your instincts have failed you.
I was in skype with Calix as I was also trying to help her get players to sign for the game fast. She randomed the player list by the number you signed in as. So you trying to meta read based on that is just terrible terrible terrible.

Also, mildly insulted that you meniton Helz, Banana, and Kovath as great possibilities, but my name isn't even mentioned. If you are reading this game as those being highly likely, then why were you questioning peoples reads on me? I am more likely town then based off this stupid theory, right?

[Firebringer]

-vote Unknown1234

This is now L-1.
I am now thinking this might be a mislynch, my biggest reason for this suspect is Unknown attitude in scumreading many more players than scum, lack of any real buddying, and just players all seeming to want to lynch him.
Ugh, now I might want to unvote.

Helz-Something especially his early trolling read as scum. His posts seem to be trying to find easy thing to call players scum. His attitude on me is normal probably for him, that I do float the middle ground often, I don't understand his scumread on me earlier as much. He reads MZ as strongest town, but his reasons didn't follow me. I suspect if Helz is scum (I am doing preflip here) he thinks that MZ is his ally.

BananaCucho-Yeah, she isn't as aggro as normal but she is trying to solve the game and read it. You can see it, she could have easily not called me town, or flipped reads on me. I don't agree with her read on Duck, and I think she has too many townreads but still solid town.

Kovath-I had townread earlier, can't rememebr what for, his pressence has been lacking latley. I am probably going to have review this later, he is still in my town list I think, but Ill go over ISO later.

MattZed-I have expressed I don't agree with him a lot on much, I don't think he is high processing much, and is taking the game from bad positions, but I think this is normal Town!Matt, I know its meta based mostly. Normal player doing what he has been doing i would call scum, for things like asking questions which seem pointless, and prodding what seems like opportunities. I think Helz made a decent point that he might be trying to solve the game, but some can be taken in a very different way.

Unknown-I think I covered this earlier, lately he has been going into more nullish. I would probably prefer a Helz lynch right now, though I don't see that happening.

PLZLEAVEDUCKK-I am approaching end here, I don't have alot to talk about, but his word chosing such as "pocketing" isn't consistent, he calls Banana town for pocketing, but I was scum for pocketing and then voting him? He doesn't seem to be acting logical, and his reads seem to go in crazy tangents. This is my preferred lynch over even Helz.

[MattZed]

Your instincts have failed you.
I was in skype with Calix as I was also trying to help her get players to sign for the game fast. She randomed the player list by the number you signed in as. So you trying to meta read based on that is just terrible terrible terrible.

Also, mildly insulted that you meniton Helz, Banana, and Kovath as great possibilities, but my name isn't even mentioned. If you are reading this game as those being highly likely, then why were you questioning peoples reads on me? I am more likely town then based off this stupid theory, right?

Calix has suggested to me on numerous occasions, such as after Illuminati 2.0, that I shouldn't one-shot randomize my games. I highly doubt she'd employ that technique after telling me I shouldn't. Did she tell you on skype, explicitly, that she one-shot randomized?

But that's not even the point. I'm not scumreading Banana at all based off of host meta. The only point I'm truly confident in from host meta is: "BananaCucho and Helz are not a scum team." If one of them flipped scum, I would hard townread the other from host meta, barring other solid evidence to the contrary. It enhances my willingness to lynch Banana, but I wouldn't vote her based off of host meta alone. I still want to complete an ISO on her, which I'll get to after catching up on other forum business I missed yesterday.

I actually don't understand the semantic meaning of your second paragraph. "If you are reading this game as those being highly likely"... what do you mean by 'those'?

[MattZed]

@Firebringer , why are you content to settle to lynch one of your null reads over someone you might scumread?

[Unknown1234]

@Firebringer , why are you content to settle to lynch one of your null reads over someone you might scumread?

That's personally how I feel right now.

We have about 9 hours until day end, the fact that your saying "I MIGHT undo my vote" really gets to me. It looks like your saying "if he is town I told you so" you should not be voting me unless you think lynchpin me would benefit the game.

Right now, I am very comfortable with voting Banana and Duck. Banana I don't know well but doesn't seem to have reasoning towards town reads and has not explained anything. As for Duck I do not understand what he is saying, he was a lot more clear last game when he KNEW I was his teammate.

I think that if your saying a lynch won't happen, that your scum and you personally would be okay with voting me. We have PLENTY of time

[Kovath]

Here's where I'm at right now after a quick look at each person's posts.

Town:
Duck- His tone and overall approach feel towny to me. His analytical content seems a bit less than what I would expect of him, but this is likely explained by the prevalence of his more gutty-type read on Unknown. He felt a lot more analytical last game... where he was scum. Go figure. Reading the Helz vote as null for now.
MattZed- Analytical, reads into both content and motivations. Looks hard at strategy and intricacies of this setup. Not fully knowing the setup feels a bit more towny to me (reinforces rather than gives me a read), especially after that shit Firebringer did in the Music game. Just an overall town vibe from this slot. Also taking note of (though not putting huge stock in) meta reads on Town!Zed.


Null-town:
Helz- Lots of content from thsi slot, which may or may not be a townread. Strange tunnel on Duck's certainty level which feels scummy in generating discussion I don't consider useful, but perhaps was fishing for reactions from others as well. Overall push for more information from Duck feels more towny to me. Seems to have put himself out there while scumhunting in a way I do not think scum would do. Admits and addresses inconsistencies pointed out like not posting read on MattZed, which could read either way. More personal note: like this slot's similar distaste for meta reads. Has been generating content and direction in a way that, for me, resonates more with a pro-town perspective. Previous L-1 situation has me feeling a bit weird though, along with a lack of gut-feeling on this slot.


Null:
Firebringer- Doesn't provide as much content and analysis, for example with read lists, as I would like. Exception was that interaction with Banana about the context around Duck's L-1 vote. Votes Duck after being called his copy by Unknown? Seems to have applied more effort in thinking how scum and town should approach the game, nullread here at best. Hard to figure the deeper motivations and thoughts from this slot. Noting that several people have townread him from meta.


Null-scum:
Banana- Gave my thoughts on this slot earlier. No substantial changes since. Post #424: Says town's job is to both clear town players and scumhunt. Seems to have only really done the former, not the latter. Perhaps explainable by the number of her town reads but still feels a bit suspicious. Could be keeping scumtells to herself as an eye for a partner while playing nice with townies.


Scummy:
Unknown- His content is either non-substantial or focuses on things that I would consider of lesser importance. For instance, comparing read lists (scum don't know their partners), 0.01%, mistake with quote tags, and in his short burst of post analysis beginning with #373, he looks at posts from the very beginning of the game I would consider more shitposty than serious. Getting scummy or at least not pro-town vibes from this slot. Post #431: Shifting reads, no justification so we can only make the assumption that he is following content in the thread but I don't like having to make logical leaps for other players instead of them explaining their thoughts themselves. Seems to have misrepped as well, like me and FB being clingy??

[Unknown1234]

Here's where I'm at right now after a quick look at each person's posts.

Town:
Duck- His tone and overall approach feel towny to me. His analytical content seems a bit less than what I would expect of him, but this is likely explained by the prevalence of his more gutty-type read on Unknown. He felt a lot more analytical last game... where he was scum. Go figure. Reading the Helz vote as null for now.
MattZed- Analytical, reads into both content and motivations. Looks hard at strategy and intricacies of this setup. Not fully knowing the setup feels a bit more towny to me (reinforces rather than gives me a read), especially after that shit Firebringer did in the Music game. Just an overall town vibe from this slot. Also taking note of (though not putting huge stock in) meta reads on Town!Zed.


Null-town:
Helz- Lots of content from thsi slot, which may or may not be a townread. Strange tunnel on Duck's certainty level which feels scummy in generating discussion I don't consider useful, but perhaps was fishing for reactions from others as well. Overall push for more information from Duck feels more towny to me. Seems to have put himself out there while scumhunting in a way I do not think scum would do. Admits and addresses inconsistencies pointed out like not posting read on MattZed, which could read either way. More personal note: like this slot's similar distaste for meta reads. Has been generating content and direction in a way that, for me, resonates more with a pro-town perspective. Previous L-1 situation has me feeling a bit weird though, along with a lack of gut-feeling on this slot.


Null:
Firebringer- Doesn't provide as much content and analysis, for example with read lists, as I would like. Exception was that interaction with Banana about the context around Duck's L-1 vote. Votes Duck after being called his copy by Unknown? Seems to have applied more effort in thinking how scum and town should approach the game, nullread here at best. Hard to figure the deeper motivations and thoughts from this slot. Noting that several people have townread him from meta.


Null-scum:
Banana- Gave my thoughts on this slot earlier. No substantial changes since. Post #424: Says town's job is to both clear town players and scumhunt. Seems to have only really done the former, not the latter. Perhaps explainable by the number of her town reads but still feels a bit suspicious. Could be keeping scumtells to herself as an eye for a partner while playing nice with townies.


Scummy:
Unknown- His content is either non-substantial or focuses on things that I would consider of lesser importance. For instance, comparing read lists (scum don't know their partners), 0.01%, mistake with quote tags, and in his short burst of post analysis beginning with #373, he looks at posts from the very beginning of the game I would consider more shitposty than serious. Getting scummy or at least not pro-town vibes from this slot. Post #431: Shifting reads, no justification so we can only make the assumption that he is following content in the thread but I don't like having to make logical leaps for other players instead of them explaining their thoughts themselves. Seems to have misrepped as well, like me and FB being clingy??

When you say mistake with quote tags, I wasn't the one who made that mistake. Also why does that add to
Me being scummy? I don't know why that is relevant. Our justification as to why you think Banana is less scummy then I am doesn't make sense to me. And if I am your biggest scum lean why have you not hammered me? It only seems to make sense if you dont want to direct suspicion onto you.

[Unknown1234]

When you say mistake with quote tags, I wasn't the one who made that mistake. Also why does that add to
Me being scummy? I don't know why that is relevant. Our justification as to why you think Banana is less scummy then I am doesn't make sense to me. And if I am your biggest scum lean why have you not hammered me? It only seems to make sense if you dont want to direct suspicion onto you.

And why is your analysis "his logic is very different from last game where he was scum" I feel as if your looking at it the wrong way. It's different when he is scum and KNOWS his teammate. This time he doesn't which makes me believe that is why he thinks I am not confirmed scum.

[Kovath]

When you say mistake with quote tags, I wasn't the one who made that mistake. Also why does that add to
Me being scummy? I don't know why that is relevant. Our justification as to why you think Banana is less scummy then I am doesn't make sense to me. And if I am your biggest scum lean why have you not hammered me? It only seems to make sense if you dont want to direct suspicion onto you.

If you read my point in context, it's not that you made the mistake but that you tunneled in on the quote tags by Helz for quite a while. I suppose I could have made that more explicit but I felt it was rather clearer. And again, it feels to me you're harping on the little things rather than my bigger macro read.

You say my justification that Banana is less scummy doesn't make sense to why without saying why. I'd prefer if you explained why it doesn't make sense to you.

I haven't hammered you because there are still hours left in the day, you're at L-1 anyway, and we need to make as much use of the daychat time that we have. This is an obvious point any town player would see, why didn't you? Instead you leaped to the easy point of questioning me for not hammering my biggest scumread.

[Kovath]

And why is your analysis "his logic is very different from last game where he was scum" I feel as if your looking at it the wrong way. It's different when he is scum and KNOWS his teammate. This time he doesn't which makes me believe that is why he thinks I am not confirmed scum.

I wasn't using that point to last game as anything more than incidental with my read from this game.

How do you reach this conclusion that he thinks you're not confirmed scum? Even scum don't know their teammate.

[Unknown1234]

If you read my point in context, it's not that you made the mistake but that you tunneled in on the quote tags by Helz for quite a while. I suppose I could have made that more explicit but I felt it was rather clearer. And again, it feels to me you're harping on the little things rather than my bigger macro read.

You say my justification that Banana is less scummy doesn't make sense to why without saying why. I'd prefer if you explained why it doesn't make sense to you.

I haven't hammered you because there are still hours left in the day, you're at L-1 anyway, and we need to make as much use of the daychat time that we have. This is an obvious point any town player would see, why didn't you? Instead you leaped to the easy point of questioning me for not hammering my biggest scumread.

What is your definition of tunnel? Because the original post I said it was a lie, but after that I only wanted to know why it was posted under my name. Your read on Banana doesn't really seem very detailed, and yet you have shut down my posts, so I am trying to figure out why I am higher scaled then banana. Not that I am being defensive, I just don't see a lot of proof as to why I'm higher on your scum reads list. Also, how do you feel about Duck leaving for a long time and hasn't posted anything recently. Because most people thought it was suspicious when I had left (to sleep) but no one has commented on him leaving. I also don't feel a good sense of why you think Duck is town. If you have a post stating why In better detail I would be happy to look into it.

[Unknown1234]

I wasn't using that point to last game as anything more than incidental with my read from this game.

How do you reach this conclusion that he thinks you're not confirmed scum? Even scum don't know their teammate.

Well of course, but just like last game he has not spent a lot of time on reading anyone else, and have recently gone AFK

[Kovath]

What is your definition of tunnel? Because the original post I said it was a lie, but after that I only wanted to know why it was posted under my name. Your read on Banana doesn't really seem very detailed, and yet you have shut down my posts, so I am trying to figure out why I am higher scaled then banana. Not that I am being defensive, I just don't see a lot of proof as to why I'm higher on your scum reads list. Also, how do you feel about Duck leaving for a long time and hasn't posted anything recently. Because most people thought it was suspicious when I had left (to sleep) but no one has commented on him leaving. I also don't feel a good sense of why you think Duck is town. If you have a post stating why In better detail I would be happy to look into it.

I had an earlier post with thoughts on Banana a page or two ago and didn't think it was necessary to copy and past them. I only provided updated thoughts on what I had previously provided. I'm also pretty sure that my post has my reasons for why I'm scaling you higher on my scumlist than Banana, I think it's clear from what I wrote that I consider you more scummy than Banana.

Trying to apply some of the similar inactivity reasoning to make me question Duck doesn't really work here because Duck has already generated a lot of content for discussion in this thread. On the other hand, you were absent for a very long period of time after your initial posts and all throughout pressure on you to become more active. Like, he posted yesterday evening (in my time). I get that.

Some of my Duck read is of the gut-variety, I admit that. Duck has provided lynch lists and ISOs, for example, so I'm also not sure where you're getting "not spent a lot of time on reading anyone else" either.

[MattZed]

Update: I'm still in the middle of my ISO on BC, and I'm thinking my gut read on her was completely off. I'll post the full ISO when I'm done, but I'm not remotely seeing the scum motivation that I thought I was earlier.