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  1. ISO #1

    Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    Account Name: Exeter
    Account ID: 1-S2-1-5640160
    Crimes Committed: Leave trains, Discriminatory terms.

    Your Account Name: killy

    Summary:

    This player caused "leave trains" and ruined games.
    Although he rarely plays mafia, we saw his quitting (at the beginning of name selections) every week constantly.
    It seems this player uses his "quitting" as a method to force to remake lobbies.

    (I) replay descriptions

    -Mafia- (1) 051522.SC2Replay

    the lobby host Hotrian loaded Chaos 833 setup.
    Exeter quit at the beginning of the name selection.

    *Leave train* 7 people followed.
    "Most of the entire town was wiped out" on the first night
    We played small 4 towns vs 2 mafias game, then dismissed.

    mafia (2) 052522.SC2Replay

    the lobby host Channel Miner loaded 922 cults vs masons save.
    Some players didn't like the cult setup.

    Exeter has quit since the beginning of the name selection. (in-game time [00:27])
    *Leave train* 4 players followed.
    "A mass quantity of people died n1"

    Exeter hosted his own lobby 2 minutes after quitting.


    "terrible game due to leave train. terrible game" --- the abandoned WitchDoctor's word. (quitting Exeter rolled Culist)


    (II) additional records:

    Spoiler : it was 'dolus eventualis' :


    (3) another different game, 05/25/22 same date with replay(2),
    (3) 052522 2.jpg
    (4) another different game, 05/09/22
    (4) 050922 1.jpg
    (5) another different game, 05/09/22
    (5)050922 2.jpg

    replay(1) is from 05/15/22
    replay(2) is from 05/25/22

    All of those events took place in May.
    The player is quitting at the beginning of the name selections or in the first 10 seconds of the D1.

    ---Hey. It might even be that his toaster made the circuit breaker trip, right?
    In that case, there should be a "waiting for player" window pop-up.
    But no window popup. It was due to F10 Alt-QQ (surreNder command), more than by accidents.

    This player quits games at 00:27~00:29 timing.
    "00:28" corresponds to "at the beginning of the name selection" when hosts use the quick setup technic (with Chaos mode).
    (I confirmed Hotrian was using Chaos mode with quick setup)

    Hotrian is a good player. His hosting is also legit.
    Is this player not a big fan of Hotrian hosting games? (or Chaos setup)

    There was willful negligence for those leave trains result of his quitting.


    (III)Discriminatory terms
    Summary:
    this player has used the offensive term "you dumb fucking mongoloid (DS)" in the lw box, in-game chat, and in a whisper. I have the replay if needed.

    Spoiler : 'you fucking down' / 'you fucking mongoloid ' It was Toast's favorite line. :

    Screenshot(6).jpgScreenshot(7).jpg

    this case is similar to this one as a precedent
    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...-S2-1-11531682

    Exeter is a Chinese player in Singapore.
    Maybe, in Singapore, "you dumb fucking mongoloid" might have another meaning.
    Maybe, it mightn't matter to the staff Mongolian people being referred to as synonymous with Down Syndrome.



    Still, I believe nobody has a right to ruin the other 14 players' chance to play the mafia game.
    Nobody has a right to ruin the other 14 players' good time with -Mafia-.
    It breaks the rules.
    Thank you

  2. ISO #2

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    Game 1:
    Hotarian loads Chaos Concussion City. Exeter types repick but doesn't say anything. He leaves the game as soon as the naming starts. Couple of people follows.

    Game 2:
    Channel loads a typical Mason/cult save. Exeter leaves as soon as the naming starts. 2 people follows at day 1 (particularly mr fuzzy, after insulting the game)


    While it's true that Exeter hasn't encouraged people to leave the game directly, the amount of games he have done this recently is very large.
    And while we don't fault people for leaving "troll" saves, none of the shown saves here is considered trolly. It seems that Exeter has set his standard of what a good save is really high. We don't want everyone to leave games just because they are not happy about the chosen setup.

    Exeter has also been vocal about leaving saves that he thinks is bad (discord).
    He had a really clean record, and I'm honestly disappointed of his recent actions.

    Leave Train
    WLx2
    Last edited by MrMostache; June 4th, 2022 at 03:57 AM.
    I have no use for these bloodless minnows. Bring me a prey that will sate my bloodlust. I hunger.

  3. ISO #3

  4. ISO #4

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    I would like to appeal this report.

    It is established that players have the right to choose what setup they wish to play, as long as they don't incite others to leave with them.

    I didn't want to play a Chaos or Cult setup, so I voted to repick.
    Failing that, I chose to leave, as I do not want to invest 45 mins into a game I do not enjoy.
    However, I respect that others wished to go ahead, so I did not attempt to convince others to leave with me.

    Based on my knowledge, I am not breaking any rules in doing so.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrMostache View Post
    While it's true that Exeter hasn't encouraged people to leave the game directly, the amount of games he have done this recently is very large.
    And while we don't fault people for leaving "troll" saves, none of the shown saves here is considered trolly. It seems that Exeter has set his standard of what a good save is really high. We don't want everyone to leave games just because they are not happy about the chosen setup.
    I would like to ask:
    (1) Do players have the right to choose what setup they wish to spend 45 mins on?

    (2) What is your proposed alternative to the established ruling on this issue (that it is OK to leave a setup as long as we do not incite others to do so)?
    Am I expected to invest 45 mins into a setup that I am strongly opposed to?
    Am I forced to play a match I have no interest in playing, otherwise I will be penalized?

    I understand your concern that you do not wish to encourage people to leave games just because they are not happy about the setup.
    But I believe penalizing leavers (before the setup is launched) is not a realistic solution.
    Also, it goes against the established ruling on this issue.

    Please clarify. Thank you.

    *

    Kindly also note:
    In both replays, the setups had a speeded up launch.
    It is possible to quickly launch a setup by first launching Chaos, then loading a Custom save.
    With this method, lobbies often do not have time to react and repick.

    Considering how unpopular Cult is (to the point where they are removed from default setups), it is likely that the Cult setup would've been repicked if the setup had been launched normally.
    That people left en masse afterwards could be a reflection of this, and not the fact that 1 player left.
    In other words, "If I had time to repick, I would have".

    The ability to quickly launch setups is a huge problem that clouds issues such as this report.
    Last edited by Exeter350; June 6th, 2022 at 01:23 AM.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  5. ISO #5

  6. ISO #6

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    Hi Exe,

    Three points on this discussion.

    (I)

    Spoiler : A man lays and leaves sleeping girls' bodies on the railroad. :

    A man lays and leaves sleeping girls' bodies on the railroad every week.
    He finds chaos and the signs of cult in girls' souls.
    He dislikes them.

    Did he want to kill sleeping girls? Not sure.
    He was just thinking "Trains might 'purify' girls. maybe not. It's ok if girls get killed. I can't stand them. I don't care."

    That's called "dolus eventualis" in a legal term.

    One night, a train runs a girl over. Actually, twice.
    He'd be prosecuted for homicide by willful negligence.

    "There s no law which prohibits laying sleeping girls' bodies on the railroad", he d insist. Yes. Correct
    "I was not fun with those girls" Oh well.
    "I didn't ask the train company to run the train her over" No, he didn't.

    Then, who did kill her? We point at the man.

    (1)Hotrian lobbies and (2)ChannelMiner's game.
    Those lobbies were destroyed, and those games were killed by trains.

    (Usual lobbies endure "-1 player" with 14/15 players games. It's playable.
    With -2 players, 13/15... maybe not.
    In the 12/15 situation, a couple of people gonna call 'remake' and start leaving. You can't stop the tide.
    That's the "leave train" mechanics. The first -1/-2 initiating leavers cause trains.

    Crime: Leave Trains
    Leave training is defined as causing a mass leaving of the game.
    This rule just exists to prevent leave-trains.
    I thought this man wanted to correct problems in the bleeding -Mafia- Community.
    Idk why he tries to justify himself and tries to ruin the bones about the rule.

    Who did cause "a couple of mass leaving of the games"?
    Exeter caused them by "willful negligence" for "his right" and his "justice".



    (II) Point of view: the abandoned people.

    Spoiler : ” In replay (1)” :

    there was an autokick. then Exeter quit. He didn't like the setup.
    result: a game with 13/15. *Leave train*.
    Several people had left the game since the name selection and day 1.

    Some players stayed to continue playing a small 4 towns vs 2 mafias game.
    the brave marshall tried to manage. but the game had already been destroyed.

    Why did we have to get punished for staying in the games?

    Spoiler : ” In replay (2)” :

    Channel Miner loaded Cult vs Mason save.
    Exeter -preferred Cultist and WD while he tried to force to remake the cult lobby. (oh, deja-vu)
    He had quit. He didn't like the cult save but he rolled cultist.

    Have you imagined how the poor WitchDoctor felt alone and abandoned?
    Or has he considered the games that he's destroyed for his right and justice?

    Has this player ever considered about remaining players?
    I bet He has never.

    The question (1) should be like that:
    (1) Do staying players have the right to play non-destroyed games they wish to spend 25 mins on?

  7. ISO #7

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    (III) Imagine the future that you design.

    There is a similar case as a precedent. the report on GhostDragon

    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...1-S2-1-5640160

    Summary :.
    Paopan claims he has to leave, and does so.
    GhostDragon writes "I will stay" "no worries" and left after submitting the name "PAOPAN'S OTHER ARM".

    As this was the 3rd times the lobby has been remade because of leave-train I am going to carry out a Leave-Train charge as he was mostly also trolling.
    Spoiler : ” GhostDragon is Drapeol's alt" :

    GhostDragon is Drapeol's alt and he d still have active smurfs for sure.
    (Sometimes, he still visits mafia lobbies. It was May 2022 for the last time. He remains his passion for mafia)
    Also, he is known for having deep faith in the 942 setups. ("942 OR BURST!")


    (A)
    Ok. the mods or Auwt can make a "new standard" for this case.
    "Everyone has the right to leave any setups (as long as we do not incite others to do so)"

    What happens next?
    Spoiler : I have a bad feeling about this. :


    GhostDragon (Drapoel) and his <942> clan members can start to leave trains for 942 setups. (the Clan <942> really exists!)

    Can you blame them? --- No. they have strong faith in 942.
    they would call the sprechchor. "942 is good. 8331 is boring. 933 is more boring!"

    Can you stop them? or can you punish them for trains?
    --- No. You are going to give them legitimized permission to leave lobbies that they don't like.
    It's not just <942> believers.

    Look at the near future that you gonna design with your selfish justification
    Everyone can force to remake lobbies for their rights and justice.
    Everyone can quit since he doesn't like the lobby setup (or the host).

    Is that the future of the -Mafia- which you imagine?
    I believe it destroys -Mafia-.



    (B) Go back to the precedent report summary,

    GhostDragon didn't say "I will leave" He didn't incite leave trains either.
    But he had caused leave trains 3 times to remake lobbies.
    And he was punished for it.


    What's the difference between GhostDragon and Exeter's leaving?

    (GhostDragon's quitting is bad, but Exeter's leaving is good?)

    Could you explain?

  8. ISO #8

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    Correcting URL of the precedent case.

    x incorrect : https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...1-S2-1-5640160
    ->
    o correct url : https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...-S2-1-11531682


    In the GhostDragon's report,
    A player :Paopan had to leave the game.
    Do you have to punish Paopan for it? --- No.

    Spoiler : Everyone has their own life :


    Maybe, Paopan's ex-girlfriend had paid him a surprise visit. Ok. Good luck and have fun with her.
    Maybe, the real mafia tried to break into his house. Oh, evac immediately. Or pull out the military-grade assault rifle to deal with the intruder.
    Maybe, he had to quit since his Windows was going to crash
    We don't know


    Everyone has their reason.
    That's why we don't punish for simple quitting immediately.
    That's why we always have to check "intent" and "tendency"


    Exeter:
    I have the choice to choose what I want to waste my time on.

    I'll just afk next time then. And alt tab and do my own things.

    Will afking be the next punishable offense?

    How about leaving halfway?

    Enjoy your endless cult and Chaos saves
    ok. Is that your answer?
    You've already announced your intention.

    Q.(2) Any proposed alternative?
    Venna :
    that's the whole point of -repick
    or hosting your own lobbies and waiting for the previous game to finish

    Mafia's been this way as long as I can remember; sometimes you have to play saves you don't like when the repick doesn't go through
    why are you suddenly upset about it?
    I agree.

    A.(2) Developers have put "repicking poll system"
    And we have the right to -repick.
    Especially Exeter has x4 power to repick with 60k points.
    Does he want more power?
    (I can agree just on the point. If we had a longer time for the setup phase as -Mafia- used to be)

    I don't know why does this player have to pick the extreme method with destruction to remake lobbies.
    At least, please don't ruin our games with your justice.


    Here's one certain thing.
    "If players quit Exeter's hosting lobby without a word"
    or If you quit his game for the reason the Mafia vs Triad setup seems boring/unbalanced,
    Exeter will be going to punish you for sure.

    Thank you.

  9. ISO #9

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    Quote Originally Posted by Exeter350 View Post
    I would like to appeal this report.

    It is established that players have the right to choose what setup they wish to play, as long as they don't incite others to leave with them.

    I didn't want to play a Chaos or Cult setup, so I voted to repick.
    Failing that, I chose to leave, as I do not want to invest 45 mins into a game I do not enjoy.
    However, I respect that others wished to go ahead, so I did not attempt to convince others to leave with me.

    Based on my knowledge, I am not breaking any rules in doing so.




    I would like to ask:
    (1) Do players have the right to choose what setup they wish to spend 45 mins on?

    (2) What is your proposed alternative to the established ruling on this issue (that it is OK to leave a setup as long as we do not incite others to do so)?
    Am I expected to invest 45 mins into a setup that I am strongly opposed to?
    Am I forced to play a match I have no interest in playing, otherwise I will be penalized?

    I understand your concern that you do not wish to encourage people to leave games just because they are not happy about the setup.
    But I believe penalizing leavers (before the setup is launched) is not a realistic solution.
    Also, it goes against the established ruling on this issue.

    Please clarify. Thank you.

    *

    Kindly also note:
    In both replays, the setups had a speeded up launch.
    It is possible to quickly launch a setup by first launching Chaos, then loading a Custom save.
    With this method, lobbies often do not have time to react and repick.

    Considering how unpopular Cult is (to the point where they are removed from default setups), it is likely that the Cult setup would've been repicked if the setup had been launched normally.
    That people left en masse afterwards could be a reflection of this, and not the fact that 1 player left.
    In other words, "If I had time to repick, I would have".

    The ability to quickly launch setups is a huge problem that clouds issues such as this report.
    If we allowed people to leave every time they dislike the save with impunity then we could go hours and hours without a single game of mafia actually starting. In the precedent we've allowed it when the save is clearly awful. However it appears that you are trying to stretch that limit and leave anything you dislike at all.
    With 5 instances shown and you basically saying you're going to keep doing it, I don't think I can grant an appeal.

    So, i mean yes, we do expect you to play even if you don't love the setup. You can leave if the setup is like griefing levels of bad.

    Now, you do have a good point about the instant start exploit making it difficult to repick. This is something on frinckles' todo list. Since that exploit is involved and you otherwise had a clean history, I think we can decrease the punishment to On Hold if you can agree to stop constantly leaving games.

    Also, I would point out that you can always start your own lobbies to ensure that the setup you like is at least the first one considered.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  10. ISO #10

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    Quote Originally Posted by DJarJar View Post
    If we allowed people to leave every time they dislike the save with impunity then we could go hours and hours without a single game of mafia actually starting. In the precedent we've allowed it when the save is clearly awful. However it appears that you are trying to stretch that limit and leave anything you dislike at all.
    With 5 instances shown and you basically saying you're going to keep doing it, I don't think I can grant an appeal.

    So, i mean yes, we do expect you to play even if you don't love the setup. You can leave if the setup is like griefing levels of bad.

    Now, you do have a good point about the instant start exploit making it difficult to repick. This is something on frinckles' todo list. Since that exploit is involved and you otherwise had a clean history, I think we can decrease the punishment to On Hold if you can agree to stop constantly leaving games.

    Also, I would point out that you can always start your own lobbies to ensure that the setup you like is at least the first one considered.
    Thank you for your consideration.

    I agree.

    Also thank you for acknowledging and working on the instant start exploit.

    I believe hosts of Cult and Chaos setups know their unpopularity, that is why they rely on instant launches to push their setup through before they can be repicked.

    I firmly believe that if lobbies had the chance to repick, they would have. However, they were not given a fair chance to do so.

    In the meantime, while the instant start exploit is being fixed, I agree to stay for such games as a compromise.

    But let's be clear that this exploit cannot continue to be left unfixed indefinitely. It is not fair for players to be held hostage to setups that did not have a proper chance to be repicked.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Exeter350; June 6th, 2022 at 10:37 PM.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  11. ISO #11

  12. ISO #12

    Re: Exeter: 1-S2-1-5640160

    I went to review the "additional records" matches that killy quoted in his report.

    Since he did not attach replays for those, please find attached in this post.

    You will notice that out of the 3 "additional records" he quoted, 2 of them involve Hotrian abusing the instant start exploit to launch Chaos mode.
    In total, out of the 5 matches quoted in this report, 4 involve the host abusing the instant start exploit.

    I hope you see a pattern here.
    Generally, I leave the game when (1) I do not wish to play the setup being loaded, and more importantly (2) when the lobby is not given a chance to repick.

    When playing with others, it is inevitable that we will sometimes play setups that we do not wish to.
    Most of the time, I respect that.
    What I cannot stand are hosts who abuse exploits to force their setups onto others with no respect for others' wishes, and then throw a tantrum when people leave.

    Once you fix the instant launch exploit, hosts will no longer be able to force their setups on unwitting lobbies.
    This is similar to the hacked setup issue, which was resolved by removing incomplete roles from the map entirely, preventing bankhackers from adding invalid roles to their setups.

    I have no doubt at all in my mind that if the lobbies had been aware and given time to react, they would've repicked Cult and Chaos.
    I reiterate my belief that the hosts know this, that is why they abuse the exploit to push their setups through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exeter350 View Post
    Considering how unpopular Cult is (to the point where they are removed from default setups), it is likely that the Cult setup would've been repicked if the setup had been launched normally.
    That people left en masse afterwards could be a reflection of this, and not the fact that 1 player left.
    In other words, "If I had time to repick, I would have".
    Please fix the instant launch exploit and take away these hosts' ability to force their choice of setups onto others.

    Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Killy View Post
    (II) additional records:

    Spoiler : it was 'dolus eventualis' :


    (3) another different game, 05/25/22 same date with replay(2),
    (3) 052522 2.jpg
    (4) another different game, 05/09/22
    (4) 050922 1.jpg
    (5) another different game, 05/09/22
    (5)050922 2.jpg

    replay(1) is from 05/15/22
    replay(2) is from 05/25/22

    All of those events took place in May.
    The player is quitting at the beginning of the name selections or in the first 10 seconds of the D1.

    ---Hey. It might even be that his toaster made the circuit breaker trip, right?
    In that case, there should be a "waiting for player" window pop-up.
    But no window popup. It was due to F10 Alt-QQ (surreNder command), more than by accidents.

    This player quits games at 00:27~00:29 timing.
    "00:28" corresponds to "at the beginning of the name selection" when hosts use the quick setup technic (with Chaos mode).
    (I confirmed Hotrian was using Chaos mode with quick setup)

    Hotrian is a good player. His hosting is also legit.
    Is this player not a big fan of Hotrian hosting games? (or Chaos setup)

    There was willful negligence for those leave trains result of his quitting.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Exeter350; June 7th, 2022 at 08:13 AM.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  13. ISO #13

  14. ISO #14

 

 

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