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  1. ISO #1

    Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    THIS IS A POTENTIAL REPLACEMENT FOR CULT


    Demagogue (Neutral Evil) "A radical populist who will stop at nothing to bring down the establishment - even if it means burning it all down in the process."

    Alternative names: Terrorist Leader, Political Extremist, Revolutionary

    Every night, the Demagogue may choose a target to visit. If that target is a Citizen or non-Government town, they are "doused" / flagged. The target will know they were flagged, as they will receive this message.

    "A charismatic individual talked to you at length about the evils of the Town government, and passionately shares his vision of the future. A better world is possible! You are now a Sympathizer / Fellow Traveler."

    Demagogue cannot flag Mafia / Triad, Neutrals, or Town Government roles (excluding Citizen). Attempting to do so will not alert the target, but give feedback to the player that they realized their target did not appear "susceptible to radicalization" because they are Town Government / Mafia / Triad / Neutral, and thus you walked away. This serves as a soft detect function for Demagogue.

    At the Demagogue's discretion, they may "activate" their flags at night. This converts all flagged players to the Demagogue's faction. Converted players retains their original roles and abilities. The only difference is that their roles are prefixed (e.g. Radicalized Party Host, or Rebel Spy).

    Converted players become part of a group night chat with the Demagogue. In addition, all feedback is shared with members of the Demagogue's night chat (e.g. Spy targets, Invest results).

    After the Demagogue activates his flags and converts players, and after the Demagogue has consumed all flags, the Demagogue no longer has any contributions beyond being a member of the faction and having a lynch vote. However, because the other players retain their original roles and abilities, they may use their abilities to bring down their enemies (and hide from other Town Investigatives).

    Converted players have an additional night ability on top of other night abilities they may or may not have. They may visit a house and detonate a suicide bomb. This has similar mechanics to the Mass Murderer's killing spree ability. The bomb will only kill whoever was at that house at night. The only guaranteed kill is the player himself, so it is possible for a bomb to detonate and kill no one other than suiciding the player if no one visited the house, and the owner of that house visited someone else that night.

    Demagogue cannot win with Mafia / Triad or Neutral Killing roles. The goal of the Demagogue is to eliminate the Town, Mafia / Triad, and Neutral Killing roles.

    When audited, Demagogue becomes Scumbag, and they lose their night abilities. If they have already converted players, they are still a member of the night chat and faction.

    When audited, converted players become Citizens, but still retain their membership in the Demagogue's faction and night chat, and they still retain their additional suicide bomb night ability.


    Options

    1: Demagogue is limited to 3 flags (default is 2).

    2: Demagogue cannot be roleblocked.

    3: Jailor and Bodyguard knows if someone is flagged.

    Why Demagogue?

    Demagogue does not have an issue with unrelenting growth that the Cult has, as it has a limited number of converts. This is balanced by converts retaining their original role - which is a bonus to the fun factor of the players involved, and allows players to have a strong provable alibi for Town - and gaining a skill-based suicidal night ability. This ability can end up hurting the Demagogue more often than not, as failing to kill priority targets will reduce the already limited size of the faction.

    Demagogue cannot stack with Mafia / Triad / Neutral Killing, which prevents overpressure on the Town, and keeps things interesting for the other factions.

    Demagogue cannot just convert people at random and call it a day. Limited number of converts + a two-stage activation ability akin to the Arsonist requires the Demagogue to 1: figure out the roles of the other players 2: choose high value targets such as Power roles, but not so visible that they will be killed before converting them, and 3: do this all in a timely manner considering the two-stage nature of the ability. Demagogue thus can only really become a strong force mid or late game, as opposed to the Cult that is converting Town's at Night 1.

    Potential problems of my proposed rework:

    Suicide bombing ability may still be overpowered, considering every member aside from the Demagogue gets it on top of their original role abilities. An additional limitation to be considered is that there is ONE suicide bomb for the entire faction, and the night chat may choose who will be the one to use it. Once it is consumed, it cannot be replenished.

    Changing win conditions is still punishing for converted players. And being able to take out a sizeable fraction of the town is still significant. Another consideration for Demagogue is to give the option for Demagogue to be Night Immune. If the Demagogue is somehow killed/lynched after converting players, the faction is disbanded and converted players revert to Town. The only problem with this consideration is the possibility of gamethrowing on part of faction members. For example, if someone wants a Town-Jailor win and they are converted, they can out who the Demagogue is and have them killed so that they can return to Town. Although generally players in Mafia are pretty good about this, in my experience at least. A response to this would be to allow members to still get original role wins, e.g. converted Jailors still get Jailor wins as after all they are still a Jailor, but the win will not count for Town but for Demagogue.
    Last edited by Space Milk; February 9th, 2022 at 12:40 AM.

  2. ISO #2

    Re: Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    The problem is that imo a role that doesn't win with Mafia/Triad/Neut Killer shouldn't be an Evil slot when most of them have that. It's too much of a balance difference for Mafia/Triad/Neut Killer to roll a hostile role in Evil slot instead of a normal one. Also converting town is just too strong to work in normal 933/8331 environment. Maybe it would work if it was Neutral Killer slot and if it could flag everyone including Mafia/Triad and Neutral. Cult works fine really if it's in a dedicated setup.

  3. ISO #3

    Re: Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    Yeah, I can agree with that analysis. I suppose it can be marked as Neutral Killing instead of Neutral Evil, as after all the Demagogue gives the ability to kill other players to its members.

    I tried to temper conversions by 1: limiting it. Cult can endlessly convert town, replenish their numbers, and their size limitation grows for every member killed. Demagogue has a hard static limit to conversions, and moreover would have a "decapitation" mechanic in which the entire faction can be eliminated simply by killing the Demagogue (like Cult Leader). Moreover, unlike current Cult, this wouldn't even kill the other members of the faction. It would simply revert them to Town. Not only does this preserve the players in the game, and keep things fun for everyone, but by defeating the Demagogue the Town is actually in a superior position because all former members of the Demagogue's faction have confirmed each other's roles and alignment by virtue of membership in the Demagogue night chat which displays other members and their (prefixed) Town roles.
    Last edited by Space Milk; February 7th, 2022 at 08:09 PM.

  4. ISO #4

    Re: Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    My Cult Update is still better imho. We both went for the same ideas for a New Cult (assimilation of abilities into a new wincon, focus on conversion). And I can see how keeping the abilities exactly the same (while my idea distorts the abilities into something twisted to further the Cult's conversion methods) could work with staving off major design flaws with current cult. But the demagogue only having 3 flags period (not replenishable when his followers die) and this ill-fitting and OP suicide bomb ability really tanks this suggestion.
    Last edited by Grakylan; February 8th, 2022 at 10:41 PM.
    https://imgur.com/a/NqMwElZ fuck it heres all the sc2mafia pics i would have put in the sig

  5. ISO #5

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  8. ISO #8

    Re: Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    A douse-convert mechanic is interesting.

    But I'm not sure why such a mechanic couldn't be reserved for its own role/faction. Hm.
    What do you mean exactly? I'm not able to parse this.

    IMO the more interesting mechanic is a conversion that still maintains original roles. I have seen this idea floated in various forms in past posts, like in the Zombie role suggestion thread. This could allow cult to be balanced through means outside of numbers, as relying on numbers for balancing is what causes cult to either be extremely weak or ridiculously overpowered, with little way in between.

  9. ISO #9

    Re: Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    Interesting idea. COULD work as its own faction, or as a Cult re-work.

    The flag-convert mechanic is interesting. Does the Demagogue get his flags back if his flagged targets die?

    Converted members retaining their original abilities is too OP.
    However, if converted members share a suicide bomb ability, that could work. As you said, the only guaranteed kill is the player himself, so it is possible for a bomb to detonate and kill no one other than suiciding the player if no one visited the house, and the owner of that house visited someone else that night.

    Unblockable kill is unnecessary.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  10. ISO #10

    Re: Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Space Milk View Post
    What do you mean exactly? I'm not able to parse this.

    IMO the more interesting mechanic is a conversion that still maintains original roles. I have seen this idea floated in various forms in past posts, like in the Zombie role suggestion thread. This could allow cult to be balanced through means outside of numbers, as relying on numbers for balancing is what causes cult to either be extremely weak or ridiculously overpowered, with little way in between.
    By "douse-convert" he means the 2-stage process like Arsonist's douse and ignite mechanic.

    Retaining original abilities on top of a shared night chat is too OP. Been proposed before.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  11. ISO #11

  12. ISO #12

    Re: Cult Replacement Suggestion: Demagogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Exeter350 View Post
    Interesting idea. COULD work as its own faction, or as a Cult re-work.
    No matter how much I think about it, I think a Cult rework is fundamentally impossible if we insist on Neutral alignment. Cult functions as a faction, and attempting to have three factions in one game would be very difficult to balance. I think whatever direction Cult rework / replacement goes, it must begin with the presumption that it will be a new faction, one that would replace Mafia and Triad, and give birth to a creatively new type of game setup.

 

 

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