S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[Yukitaka Oni]

Pretty sure it was Yuki that breadcrumbed traitor in bright red.

Shit I am wrong.

-vote Gingerape

......

[secondpassing]

That is bullshit and you know it. She had Hanzo in her sigh... She fucking had a lead on Mei.. uh uh she she SHE GOT THE GUY WHO POSTED A PICTURE ONCE PER DAY!!

Sorry, I didn't actually finish reading that game to completion.
What alignment was Hanzo and Mei? I don't really care about the picture guy.

[JealousTL]

Oh and to you fucking idiots out there, yuki has actually soft claimed a specific PR. We are not lynching him.

Wow, rude much? ): Why are you getting upset?

If the world is calix and myself why doesnt calix just guide me into voting group 2. My posts made it clear I would have lynched superjack's slot or secondpassing's. We would have lynched and killed you and ended the game right away.

This is a good point. This at least makes me feel better about Calix.

No, you're not and you will not get any information from me. Not even in the next 3 games

Lol? K.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Sorry, I didn't actually finish reading that game to completion.
What alignment was Hanzo and Mei? I don't really care about the picture guy.

Hanzo=night immune mafia that was red checked and hard defended by calix. Mei was a doctor that calix faked a red check on and got mislynched. Junkrat was right in her assessment and I was making a joke :P

also to Jealoustl I generally am a very aggressive and attacking player. Upset/rude is a big part of my play which you will see when I know my alignment and have an actual emotional investment in the game.

[JealousTL]

Hanzo=night immune mafia that was red checked and hard defended by calix. Mei was a doctor that calix faked a red check on and got mislynched. Junkrat was right in her assessment and I was making a joke :P

also to Jealoustl I generally am a very aggressive and attacking player. Upset/rude is a big part of my play which you will see when I know my alignment and have an actual emotional investment in the game.

Boo

[JealousTL]

Just in case, parking here:

-vote Yukitaka Oni

Good night everyone. Might check back for a few more minutes after cigarette + brushing teeth.

[secondpassing]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say why I now think you lean town.
You didn't focus on why I thought you were scummy (in which, you were doing something wrong), instead you retaliated by saying that I was not adequately reading the thread (which you believed I was doing something wrong).

^ Two posts above ^ there is a face against reacting to how Duckk plays this game. I take it you're not an emotional player? If yes, do you ever get emotional whilst playing mafia?

[secondpassing]

Just in case, parking here:

-vote Yukitaka Oni

Good night everyone. Might check back for a few more minutes after cigarette + brushing teeth.

Thoughts on NU?

I feel as if I do not need to ask about your vote on Yuki-san.

[JealousTL]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say why I now think you lean town.
You didn't focus on why I thought you were scummy (in which, you were doing something wrong), instead you retaliated by saying that I was not adequately reading the thread (which you believed I was doing something wrong).

^ Two posts above ^ there is a face against reacting to how Duckk plays this game. I take it you're not an emotional player? If yes, do you ever get emotional whilst playing mafia?

I see, thanks for elaborating.

When I first played and was much younger and sober much less often than I am now, I got emotional a few times. I can't recall if it was something game-specific though (scum boss telling me to be more vehement or whatever. I feel like I am much less emotional now, and actively try to keep any emotions in check. I find that they only serve to blind you, make one more prone to bad habits such as tunneling, being disrespectful, losing clarity of thought, making revealing mistakes, etc.

I can see how some people can use emotion as a fuel of sort; kind of like method acting. By becoming emotionally vested, they find the drive to post more, defend their position, make certain appeals that would not work if they came from someone like me. However, I feel that most of the time, they don't belong in a game of this nature.

Thoughts on NU?

I feel as if I do not need to ask about your vote on Yuki-san.

Never Unlucky has been active, posts analysis, explains his views, showed a willingness to re-asses his own play, and generally has been driving the game forward. Townlean.

My vote on Yukitaka is by no means permanent. It's just that at this juncture, I wanted to park my vote somewhere just in case I miss deadline tomorrow (it's going to be a busy day) and I don't want to not have a vote it. As far as why my vote is on them, yea, I'm sure you can understand why. It's not that I necessarily think that Yuki is scum or have any significant evidence towards such a conclusion. It's just that if they are not willing to be candid with town and said that they will post no information at all makes them hard to read in a game where town should aim to be read as town. Also, they will not be pushing the game forward.

If I had a scumlean on anyone in that group, I would switch my vote. Hopefully, I will have time to catch up tomorrow and see if that becomes the case.

[JealousTL]

Shit, accidentally deleted the ")" after "...more vehement or whatever."

Whenever I see errors like that online it pisses me off, so this is a PSA so that it hopefully doesn't happen to anyone reading.

[JealousTL]

And on that note, good night everyone! Looking forward to solidifying my reads from your participation. There are quite a few players who should post more and try to solve the game more. Stop hiding!

[Gingerape]

Night jealous ^^
I like how everyone keeps saying breadcrumb and then voting for me. It's really funny.
I go tell duck that his mechanic makes him a traitor and everyone jumps down my throat.
That's fine. I'm gonna say for a mislynch, I guess picking me won't be a huge loss~
I'm hungry.

[Calix]

Wall-posts incoming

Spoiler : Some KC/ Duck interactions. I don't know what she defines as "bizarre" (so...not actually scummy, just 'odd'?) as we've only played one game together and I specifically stated that I wasn't playing the same way. Thus the weird meta-reference does not sit well.

And I know someone made a semi-decent point about why Duck/ Calix as a scum team doesn't make sense :

This looks like
A): You're coaching Never Unlucky
B): You're trying to convince everyone that even though you don't know your alignment, you're definitely Town.

Declaring Calix to be unlynchably-charming Town Leader is bizarre. Calix's behavior this time is equally bizarre.

Talking about yourself when it's Group 3 we're lynching from is at best narcissistic.

I think you & Calix are Scum, but we can't lynch either of you 2 today. So y'all hush while we find & lynch your buddy.

Umm... you are steering it away, aren't you?...

Spoiler : I also dislike this interaction. Klingoncelt doesn't actually counter why she thinks Duck/ Calix is a viable scum team. Instead she...talks about my scum-hunting ability...in response to "why wouldn't scum!Calix vote for G2 and lynch SP/ SJ if Duck is also scum?" How does my accuracy have ANYTHING to do with a theory which she proposed?

It doesn't make sense to take shots at a player who you scum-read (poor scum-hunting =/= scum tell so why bring it up? Has she changed her mind in light of Duck's post? Who knows) I do not find this a convincing response to the post in question.

Duck's response strikes me as opportunistic. Instead of pointing out the flaws in Klingoncelt's response, he takes the opportunity to make a snide comment about my accuracy. This only serves to low-key discredit someone he town-reads while being able to fall back on his "IT'S A JOKE GUISE" shtick.

This is supported further because he specifically said "Calix's play is fine, just sucks at making town circles" earlier so switching from that to "LOL CALIX'S SCUM-HUNTING SO BAD" sticks out more than it already did.

I do not think that Klingoncelt/ Duck are in a scum team together, given that Klingoncelt is going out of her way to interact with and scum-read Duck. It feels like TvS to me and despite her poor logic, some of Klingoncelt's other posts remind me of her OW play. (where she was town) Assuming that's correct, that means Duck is likely mafia.

I'll have to reread in light of this to see if this checks out :

If the world is calix and myself why doesnt calix just guide me into voting group 2. My posts made it clear I would have lynched superjack's slot or secondpassing's. We would have lynched and killed you and ended the game right away.

Not trying to garcia here, but Calix has yet to demonstrate an at-average talent for finding Scum. Just saying.

That is bullshit and you know it. She had Hanzo in her sigh... She fucking had a lead on Mei.. uh uh she she SHE GOT THE GUY WHO POSTED A PICTURE ONCE PER DAY!!

Oh and to you fucking idiots out there, yuki has actually soft claimed a specific PR. We are not lynching him.

Why would you openly dissuade players from voting/ scum-reading a player this early on? If you had actually noted a PR claim, you'd keep it to yourself and look at who keeps pushing them. And no, I do not want your response to this to be "lol but Yuki's this role" because I do not give a shit.

This looks like a lazy attempt to deflect pressure more than legitimate "oh shit a town-read's about to get lynched" reaction. It is way too early to be pulling that shit.

[Calix]

Spoiler : NU's reads on G3 :

Yuki - Gut tells me he's town, but I don't really find town motives behind his posts. I know you'll discredit me for this, but I think that he's too "dumb to be scum".
It felt weird that he called out Group 3 for not scum-hunting each other when he hasn't been doing it himself.
Ginger - Town tone, posts feel like IIOA, and I'm questioning the motives behind saying that Shapelog stole the "oh I didn't know how many scum there were, I am therefore town" thing from him.
Kovath - Politico-scum!Kovath (and IC-neutral!Kovath during day 2) kept his activity to a bare minimum due to RL events and flew under the town's radar. His inactivity this game feels like Déjà vu in that sense. Could be a coincidence.
Found his reasoning for town-reading RLVG unnatural, it felt like something Unknown would say.
RLVG - Well reasoned player whose posts I like. Didn't notice anything AI in his comments yet.

Yes, idiot. Too dumb to be scum is not an actual thing.
Can you expand on the possible motivations for the Ginger/ Shapelog interaction?
I'm not a fan of Kovath either. He feels like a fence-sitter, sitting back and judging but not trying to get into the thick of things. It's underwhelming from him at best and an attempt to scrape by for today at worst. Given that this setup shares a few similarities with Politico, I'm going to go off precedent here.

-vote Kovath

I'd like to present this post to support my case:

I do not like NU. His heavier posts read as very non-confrontational to me - I seriously doubt that he is finding it so difficult to scumread anyone and it really doesn't come off as natural; Town should have no compunctions or hesitations about making conclusions, yet I remember for instance that thing about town tone vs. IIoA -> null read, a large number of nulls.

His recent reads list on our group:

Not sure where the shift happened in regards to Gingerape. Part of it may just be due to lack of content (ex. the read on me) but I don't get a sense of conviction from this. Also, why was my townread reasoning unnatural and what does it mean, "something Unknown would say"?

He does a decent amount of busywork, asking players to give or explain their reads, though it feels a bit opportunistic to me (ex. response to RLVG comment about taking a small vacation). However, this was something I also read off him in IC when he was town so meh.

Basically despite his high volume of commenting and posting, a closer look at his comments and posts do not make me think he is really driving things or taking strong stances.

Here's what strikes me the most about Kovath. He will take X behaviour. He will label X behaviour as scummy. He will then proceed to do the same behaviour that he himself labels as scummy.

By his own logic, his posts are scummy.

Non-confrontational? Check.
Not making conclusions? Check. (case in point, the Duck 'read')
Lack of conviction? Check.

Minor point but his opening post (where he asks why someone would vote for their own group) can also qualify as busywork. Given that scum are in every group, voting for your own group would only ensure that you personally could not vote and means you could be lynched. I don't see how a) it falls under a discrepancy (something Kovath often nitpicks at when playing the game) or b) is a scum tell. Making me wonder why he made that comment in the first place.

Odd that he uses IC as a meta reference when he was Neutral Evil, but could be referring to his 'less informed' perspective there.

I also wouldn't characterise a lot of players as having made "strong stances" or "driving the thread" at that point, and this is still applicable now. What makes NU stick out from other players?

[Calix]

Spoiler : Some SP posts which I liked (reasoning in spoiler) :

Since I have an unfair advantage ^^ (I was following the thread from my D850, I'm up to page 13 or something)
I'm going to use it.

I feel like I should answer questions instead of read, because my reads 100% third party at this point.

This feels townie. Scum wouldn't make this much of a fuss over "oh my contributions at this point aren't worth much" (which would be suspicious if that was all he had done) BEFORE he attempts to make up for it with his other posts.

Assuming that my town-lean on SP and Jealous is correct, one or both of SuperJack/ Duck have to be scum. I don't recall SJ posting much so it's difficult to determine which scenario is the case. However Duck has been in two of the interactions which pinged me as dodgy. Lowest common denominator might be applicable here.

Spoiler : I also liked this SP post :

This shade though. I do not understand this position taken against RLVG. I urge you not to alienate yourself with RLVG -had a reason but I deleted it on purpose-

Definitely liking this plan Yukitaka-san.

+1. Click the link to the post to see what this actually refers to. I could be trolling you.. don't hurt me when you click it!

I don't hear any bad intent from that (RLVG's) post, did you? This is your own post link.

Well, I agree with the statement. I think a better evaluation would be that he (PLEASELEAVEDUCKK) paints himself as a victim to gain leverage/manipulate.

Doesn't equate.

Mind meld, mostly. Kovath does not ping me as scummy; however, I scum read Gingerape for tone and I'm mixed on Never Unlucky. I think it takes more time to read Never Unlucky though.

Just going to sheep this and add something. I now scum read a null slot.
If he is a blank slate, his chances would have been exactly equal to random lynching.
But there is a chance that he is a mafia. I find little resistance going against this notion, so I actually think that him being accepted was planned out and supported by the mafia.
Going by his town and word choice, while I am inclined to believe him makes me think that he is more like the character I created for RLVG in his adventure quest.
Either enternally evil, or neutral.

From the way DUCKK is posting; however, his claim seems genuine.

Additional thought: DUCKK's play makes no sense if he was town. He has no reason to claim essentially neutral benign on day 1. And survivor/amnesiac claims should be lynched. To my dismay, he can't be lynched today.

It's K I'll do it for you, but in the meantime I would like to hear your updated thoughts on players in G3.

Response:

I don't see how you think I've alienated myself from him. I initially took issue with his reaction to Duck, then started viewing him more favourably later on. Forget the exact details but I'm pretty sure it was around the time that Kovath popped in and the way RLVG handled that was better.
I tone-read NU as town. He's being a bit quieter than usual but that's easily explained by being stretched for time. I don't get the impression that he's trying to skate by with his posts. I know he'll be around in the afternoon for me so I'll have the chance to get a more solid impression then.
Kovath is explained above.
Ginger seems scummy if his posts are taken at face value and I didn't like his last post in the thread (#512?) where he basically accepts that he's likely to be lynched and doesn't do anything to change anyone's minds. I can also see town realising that they're in a mess and think they're fucked no matter what (this is mostly a tone thing so not a strong point) although it's rather early to just sit back and wait to be lynched. I don't feel like he's scum though? Just a nagging feeling, I guess. Should read his posts again sometime.
Yuki is contradictory but he seemed legitimately clueless about the setup and his play has improved as the game goes on. So not too sure on that one.

Spoiler : Okay I'm getting lazy so I'll just note these Jealous posts and maybe I'll get back to them later. Not scum-reading Jealous for anything here so it's not a high priority :

This is a good point. I think that it is more likely that scum wagoned on G3 because of the fact that these two were the likely lynch suspects, meaning that by extension I have to think that they are less to be scum. Or at least, Yuki is, since they seem to have netted more derision than Gingerape. I concede that I am not a fan of either of them solely due to posting style, but that does not make either of them necessarily scum and (at least) I have to remind myself of that fact.

100 degrees is an interesting description.

Largely because you say that you "can't remember any posts" from a few players who have indeed posted more than the minim (Titus, Shapelog to name two). Many of the other reads lack substance, something that could be intentional but in the context of my previous statement seems to be a reflection of how much time/effort you've invested in reading the game so far. With you being a (seemingly) more experienced player on this forum, I expect more.



As I said in my previous posts, I am by no means certain of my reads; they are more leans. I also have the disadvantage of not being familiar with any of the players. My thoughts in general are as follows:

Titus - I find that his activity has been decent and although I have not seem him contribute much, I do think he is showing interest in pushing this game along. Townlean.

MattZed - A player who truly has had little-to-no impact on the game so far, as far as I recall. I don't entirely subscribe to the theory that inactivity = scumminess, but the longer this player remains quiet the more detrimental, or rather not beneficial, he is to town. I give him a null read for now and hope to see more that would sway me in one direction or another.

Gingerape - Trying to put my feelings on their posting style aside, they did make at least one post that I can recall that had some value or tried to generate conversation about the various approaches to the setup, although they did repeat some of the things said prior. As I said before, I also find it unlikely that scum would go along with a G3 vote when Gingerape and Yuki seemed to be most peoples' primary targets if they were in fact scum. This is, admittedly, a bit of a stretch in logic but it is the best I have right now. Townlean.

Kovath - Has been prodding people, asking good questions, candid with his reactions to things going on in the thread, and active. Could just be a good player regardless of alignment, but these elements usually make me townlean on someone, so I will do that here. Townlean.

Can you elaborate on why those things you said are bizarre?

I do agree that we have given this who DUCK situation entirely too much attention by now. He has effectively used up what seems like 90% of the activity of D1. Whether this was done intentionally, I can't be sure.

I can see the world you are creating of DUCK/Calix scum; I think I alluded to that possibility in passing in a previous post. I like Calix's posts so far, though. I should look back on it a bit more objectively.

[Never Unlucky]

I do not see this as Kovath stalling the game though, but being busy and having an awkward time fitting in. Killing calix in politico was the correct decision. You kill town's mouthpiece and then you take control and pick them apart one by one.

My point was that killing Calix was dishonorable. Yes, it was the way to win the game, but it wasn't honorable.

Why are you saying "and are the traitor" as if you know there is one in the game? If I am a scum traitor then yes you are correct nobody in the game knows my alignment. I made the assumption that being a traitor and amnesiac would be a waste and that I would not be given that role. In that same post I think I also mentioned that If I am town, I am likely a backup, deputy, or citizen. Although a bodyguard miller would be neat. Forces mafia to have a decision on whether or not to kill me and town has a decision to lynch me or let me try to get a save, and if I am mafia pigeon hole myself into keeping the most town read player alive.

"As if you know there is one in the game" -- In the signup thread, Quick said that the roles were pre-established, that they were not chosen randomly. Seeing as the "Traitor" is a setup-unique role, I don't see why Quick would've taken the time to create a role and not include it in his setup. I therefore assume there is a traitor.

How do you see this? It is a fact we post the most, and that lurkers will sheep. Mafia want to blend in and be on the good side of town, and they don't do that by backing other lurkers.

Yes, it's a fact. I just disliked the way you presented it.

[Never Unlucky]

This is a good point. I think that it is more likely that scum wagoned on G3 because of the fact that these two were the likely lynch suspects, meaning that by extension I have to think that they are less to be scum. Or at least, Yuki is, since they seem to have netted more derision than Gingerape. I concede that I am not a fan of either of them solely due to posting style, but that does not make either of them necessarily scum and (at least) I have to remind myself of that fact.

Like I told Duck, 4 of the 6 original votes on G3 were from G3, and the 2 others were DUCK and Calix whom I don't scum-read. In that sense, I don't think it was a scum-driven vote. A town-driven vote which scum sheeped would be how I describe this vote.

I want to know what changed from here to here, perhaps I missed something but I do want to hear it again anyways.

At the time my reads for group 3 were null for everyone and slight town-lean for Yuki. By POE, there were 3 possible scum slots for me. In group 2, I town-read Calix and Jealous, and I wouldn't lynch DUCK before he gets his role. By POE there were two possible scum.

[Gingerape]

Well Cowlix, I haven't given up. Not really. However, I believe Yuki is a town member 100% as well so if it's between me and her, I'd rather take the fall since I know she has more of the towns trust than I do.
Carla, you promised me you've played with the other four members in my group, I'm at a disadvantage here because I've played with pretty much none of these people--so I'm lacking in the department of being able to identify past vs present playstyle.
If I had to guess the scum in our group it would by that Korvak guy or RLVG,
I'm positive that Yuki and I are town ^^ and I like NUs posts a lot. He could be a really open scum but since it's day1 I pretty much have to just go off instincts.
Oh~ RLVG really pinned me down straight away, I felt violated and I didn't really like it...it's apparent that he doesn't care about our relationship long term ;~;
-flop- I also don't know about kovath; I can't read him that well and since I think 3/5 members in our group are town then he kinda goes into the scum side naturally for me >:

[Yukitaka Oni]

Afraid of traitor role? It's simple. We just need to

[Kovath]

Yes, idiot. Too dumb to be scum is not an actual thing.
Can you expand on the possible motivations for the Ginger/ Shapelog interaction?
I'm not a fan of Kovath either. He feels like a fence-sitter, sitting back and judging but not trying to get into the thick of things. It's underwhelming from him at best and an attempt to scrape by for today at worst. Given that this setup shares a few similarities with Politico, I'm going to go off precedent here.

-vote Kovath

I'd like to present this post to support my case:



Here's what strikes me the most about Kovath. He will take X behaviour. He will label X behaviour as scummy. He will then proceed to do the same behaviour that he himself labels as scummy.

By his own logic, his posts are scummy.

Non-confrontational? Check.
Not making conclusions? Check. (case in point, the Duck 'read')
Lack of conviction? Check.

Minor point but his opening post (where he asks why someone would vote for their own group) can also qualify as busywork. Given that scum are in every group, voting for your own group would only ensure that you personally could not vote and means you could be lynched. I don't see how a) it falls under a discrepancy (something Kovath often nitpicks at when playing the game) or b) is a scum tell. Making me wonder why he made that comment in the first place.

Odd that he uses IC as a meta reference when he was Neutral Evil, but could be referring to his 'less informed' perspective there.

I also wouldn't characterise a lot of players as having made "strong stances" or "driving the thread" at that point, and this is still applicable now. What makes NU stick out from other players?

No, I made the point that NU has been posting a lot and commenting a lot, for instance his many posts commenting line-by-line on other posts, and that is why his approach stands out for me, especially in regards to other games. And no, I'm not being hypocritical because I am legitimately busy and my relative lack of contribution is related to that, unlike NU who is posting in high volume but not driving points forward.

Why does it matter that I was Neut in IC? I was still hunting for the Mafia and my point was legitimate there about injecting bias into summaries.

Duck said he was originally going to vote his own group and then changed his own mind. I wanted to know what the original reasoning was. I wouldn't call that busywork on the level of "Explain reads pl0x".

What has made you switch from calling me "scholarly" or whatever it was in IC to scummy in this game? There's no neut in this mode that would justify a meta comparison to IC either.

[Never Unlucky]

Yes, idiot. Too dumb to be scum is not an actual thing.

Right, you'd be town every game if it was a thing.

Can you expand on the possible motivations for the Ginger/ Shapelog interaction?

Shapelog using the "I didn't know how many mafs there were, I am town" argument is scummy at worst, noob at best. Judging by his previous posts I highly doubt that he is a noob, and thus reject the noob idea. I think he pulled the 'NeverUnlucky' (I am noob, don't push me -- from POLITICO).

GingerApe -- It is possible that she(?) was trying to draw attention to Shapelog's scummy comment by saying she was going to use it though I do not think it is the case given the trolly manner of delivery. Her mentionning this is trolly at best, scummy at worst. I do not know why a scum would willfully make this comment and draw attention on his case, so WIFOM.

Well Cowlix, I haven't given up. Not really. However, I believe Yuki is a town member 100% as well so if it's between me and her, I'd rather take the fall since I know she has more of the towns trust than I do.

It's not between you and her, not in my book at least. I have my money on you/Kovath though I appreciate your tone.

Would you explain your motives when you made the "aw, Shapelog stole my 'idk how many mafs there are' argument"? It seemed pretty scummy.

Carla, you promised me you've played with the other four members in my group, I'm at a disadvantage here because I've played with pretty much none of these people--so I'm lacking in the department of being able to identify past vs present playstyle.
If I had to guess the scum in our group it would by that Korvak guy or RLVG,

Why RLVG?

I'm positive that Yuki and I are town ^^ and I like NUs posts a lot. He could be a really open scum but since it's day1 I pretty much have to just go off instincts.

What do you like of my posts? You never made allusion to them before now.

Oh~ RLVG really pinned me down straight away, I felt violated and I didn't really like it...it's apparent that he doesn't care about our relationship long term ;~;
-flop- I also don't know about kovath; I can't read him that well and since I think 3/5 members in our group are town then he kinda goes into the scum side naturally for me >:

--

[Yukitaka Oni]

Gotta love day 1. The blind lynch with the only way to avoid being lynch is trying to pretend to be innocent as much as possible. So not my style....

[Kovath]

At the time my reads for group 3 were null for everyone and slight town-lean for Yuki. By POE, there were 3 possible scum slots for me. In group 2, I town-read Calix and Jealous, and I wouldn't lynch DUCK before he gets his role. By POE there were two possible scum.

So the two possible scum in Group 2 you think were your original PL candidates anyway? Your original reasoning was that Group 3 had no new players / immigrants and thus would be easier to read; what changed because it seems you're null on 3 and slight-lean on 1?

Your town-reads on Calix and Jealous are tone, I think? Correct me if wrong please.

[Yukitaka Oni]

So the two possible scum in Group 2 you think were your original PL candidates anyway? Your original reasoning was that Group 3 had no new players / immigrants and thus would be easier to read; what changed because it seems you're null on 3 and slight-lean on 1?

Your town-reads on Calix and Jealous are tone, I think? Correct me if wrong please.

Not really a correction but....just a small remind: group 2 was having too much afker, and most player disagree with idea lynch the inactive group

[Calix]

Well Cowlix, I haven't given up. Not really. However, I believe Yuki is a town member 100% as well so if it's between me and her, I'd rather take the fall since I know she has more of the towns trust than I do.
Carla, you promised me you've played with the other four members in my group, I'm at a disadvantage here because I've played with pretty much none of these people--so I'm lacking in the department of being able to identify past vs present playstyle.
If I had to guess the scum in our group it would by that Korvak guy or RLVG,
I'm positive that Yuki and I are town ^^ and I like NUs posts a lot. He could be a really open scum but since it's day1 I pretty much have to just go off instincts.
Oh~ RLVG really pinned me down straight away, I felt violated and I didn't really like it...it's apparent that he doesn't care about our relationship long term ;~;
-flop- I also don't know about kovath; I can't read him that well and since I think 3/5 members in our group are town then he kinda goes into the scum side naturally for me >:

You town-read Yuki that much that you'd rather die in his place? Why?

Town-reading NU because of transparency, got it.

I gather that RLVG/ Kovath are POE reads for you, but do you have anything else to add about why you scum-read them?

No, I made the point that NU has been posting a lot and commenting a lot, for instance his many posts commenting line-by-line on other posts, and that is why his approach stands out for me, especially in regards to other games. And no, I'm not being hypocritical because I am legitimately busy and my relative lack of contribution is related to that, unlike NU who is posting in high volume but not driving points forward.

Okay so it stands out to you, but why would it be scum-motivated? I don't begrudge you for noting a perceived difference in playstyle but I don't see how it's relevant.

Why does it matter that I was Neut in IC? I was still hunting for the Mafia and my point was legitimate there about injecting bias into summaries.

Duck said he was originally going to vote his own group and then changed his own mind. I wanted to know what the original reasoning was. I wouldn't call that busywork on the level of "Explain reads pl0x".

What has made you switch from calling me "scholarly" or whatever it was in IC to scummy in this game? There's no neut in this mode that would justify a meta comparison to IC either.

The Neutral was scum so by default, using a game where you were in a scum mindset is odd. I already made the point that you could have been referring to being less informed in my post.

I wouldn't characterise prodding players for reads as alignment-indicative or notable in this context. Could be busywork, could also be town who is trying to get players to contribute.

My perception of how you play has changed since I realised that your play in IC was from a neut-scum mindset...given how horrendously off I was about you in that game.

I don't recall describing your posts as such (although I don't remember either way) - I thought that was NU.

[Calix]

Gotta love day 1. The blind lynch with the only way to avoid being lynch is trying to pretend to be innocent as much as possible. So not my style....

Why do you push the idea of "mafia will pretend to be innocent as much as possible" before actively distancing yourself from this? (by saying 'not my style')

It reads like you are trying to label certain behaviours as scummy and then distance yourself from said behaviour, presumably in an attempt to impress on us that you are town in comparison.

[Never Unlucky]

No, I made the point that NU has been posting a lot and commenting a lot, for instance his many posts commenting line-by-line on other posts, and that is why his approach stands out for me, especially in regards to other games. And no, I'm not being hypocritical because I am legitimately busy and my relative lack of contribution is related to that, unlike NU who is posting in high volume but not driving points forward.

I'm happy that at least one player here doesn't necessarily town-read active players.

'Especially in regards to other games' -- What do you mean here? I've always made line-by-line posts, look at my other games. How would this be AI anyways?

How am I not driving points forward?

Why does it matter that I was Neut in IC? I was still hunting for the Mafia and my point was legitimate there about injecting bias into summaries.

You didn't hunt for the mafia, that's a lie. You sheeped the 'NU = NEutral' train, AFK'd day 2 and were a massive moron day 3.

Duck said he was originally going to vote his own group and then changed his own mind. I wanted to know what the original reasoning was. I wouldn't call that busywork on the level of "Explain reads pl0x".

It's the type of questions I've asked, zzz.

So the two possible scum in Group 2 you think were your original PL candidates anyway? Your original reasoning was that Group 3 had no new players / immigrants and thus would be easier to read; what changed because it seems you're null on 3 and slight-lean on 1?

It's not accurate. My two POE scums in G2 also happened to be PL candidates (before SJ and SP came in).

'Easier to read' for the town as a whole, not just for me. I haven't played with Yuki nor Ginger before, so this reasoning wasn't geared towards me specifically.
'Easier to read' doesn't guarantee I'll get reads from them.

And I'm null on RLVG and Ginger so 2.

Your town-reads on Calix and Jealous are tone, I think? Correct me if wrong please.[/QUOTE]

Jealous - Tone, fresh setup spec arguments (Do scum participate in setup spec usually?), looks like a very cautious town with his paranoia.
Calix - Tone, and there are some comments she's made that I don't see scum saying. (No motivation)

[Gingerape]

i like your last comment there <3 --

Oh the shapelog thing, I was making fun of his comment of not knowing how many mafia players were in the game since it is easily read on the setup. I've seen people try to pull this off as a mafia before to try to make them seem like they're not scum since they didn't have any idea of how many mafia there were to begin with~. I didn't mean for myself to appear scummy, trust me. Im enjoying how people think I'm breadcrumbing and posting scummy ideas so openly. I guess people don't enjoy soft trolling anymore ;~;

Oh I've played wif him before. And not that he's openly scummy...just that I have 5 people to choose one mafia from and I'm not going to pick me or Yuki, and I don't think it's you either...
Mainly because your opinions and reads are similar to mine so far...I said similar, not exact; I don't think I'm some sort of half scum. ^^
But I felt like he passively was phishing for my role too >:
And I said I'm not too certain about kovath either.
Why am I defending myself against you? You can't even help me out right now ;~;

Hi Cayla ^^
I townread Yuki as a town pr so that's like. Wayyyy important. Mhmm.
Is it bad to place NU above korvath and rlvg as a town due to his straightforward and helpful posts?
I don't know what POE or IIOA are.
Is it person of evil? >: these are all new abbreviations to me.

[Kovath]

Okay so it stands out to you, but why would it be scum-motivated? I don't begrudge you for noting a perceived difference in playstyle but I don't see how it's relevant.

I've seen a number of people who are townreading him for being reasoned and active and "driving the game forward", I can see the first two but definitely not the last one. It's a simple strategy to establish himself as town in the group (esp with the stupid activity = town idea), it's something I've seen others like Cryptonic do time and time again (ex. line by line responses, I think?).

NU tried to be more stance-takey in Politico and got staked on it very easily, I could see him changing his approach in this game so I don't really consider that him being different from that scum-meta as a relevant point.

The Neutral was scum so by default, using a game where you were in a scum mindset is odd. I already made the point that you could have been referring to being less informed in my post.

I wouldn't characterise prodding players for reads as alignment-indicative or notable in this context. Could be busywork, could also be town who is trying to get players to contribute.

My perception of how you play has changed since I realised that your play in IC was from a neut-scum mindset...given how horrendously off I was about you in that game.

I don't recall describing your posts as such (although I don't remember either way) - I thought that was NU.

Less informed yes, and I was trying to be town-minded and scumhunting in a number of my posts that game though not as strong on pushing those points through.

That was the nuance I brought in; I was also responding to your point that I was being hypocritical about busywork in making the Duck comparison.

I approach playing neuts still from a rather town perspective given that the game would still need to be solved (plus I don't want to be lynched), the difference is in how I pursued those points and whether I'd go against my own points (ex. I was actually townreading MiniZed all the way off my original read in IC, but let it slide through as a ML). There are no neuts in this game so if you want to make some meta judgment on me, it's probably more appropriate to use a Town vs Mafia game.

Maybe, I don't remember who said the "scholarly" thing, though I do remember you defending me from DB as commonly aloof or something.

[Calix]

Oh the shapelog thing, I was making fun of his comment of not knowing how many mafia players were in the game since it is easily read on the setup. I've seen people try to pull this off as a mafia before to try to make them seem like they're not scum since they didn't have any idea of how many mafia there were to begin with~. I didn't mean for myself to appear scummy, trust me. Im enjoying how people think I'm breadcrumbing and posting scummy ideas so openly. I guess people don't enjoy soft trolling anymore ;~;

Uh yes, nobody was claiming that you were trying to appear scummy because nobody tries to do that, lol.

And no, people aren't a fan of trolling. If you could knock it off so that we can actually read you properly, that would be great, thanks!

What thoughts/ opinions of NU do you agree with and where do your thoughts divert from his?

Hi Cayla ^^
I townread Yuki as a town pr so that's like. Wayyyy important. Mhmm.
Is it bad to place NU above korvath and rlvg as a town due to his straightforward and helpful posts?
I don't know what POE or IIOA are.
Is it person of evil? >: these are all new abbreviations to me.

Is it scummy to ask someone for an opinion like this to test the waters?

The answer to your question is yes. Being helpful isn't a town tell.

Process of Elimination.

Information instead of Analysis.

[Kovath]

I'm happy that at least one player here doesn't necessarily town-read active players.

'Especially in regards to other games' -- What do you mean here? I've always made line-by-line posts, look at my other games. How would this be AI anyways?

How am I not driving points forward?

You're not pushing reads, scumteams, etc. like you did in IC for example. Definitely get the sense that something is different.

Your line-by-lines wasn't the point, it's what you're actually commenting with that strikes me as unusual. I do not get the impression that you are really trying to push a game-solving mindset with those big posts. I would have to do a big ISO to be more specific but I don't have the time.

You didn't hunt for the mafia, that's a lie. You sheeped the 'NU = NEutral' train, AFK'd day 2 and were a massive moron day 3.

Because I was the neutral, I was busy, and ok.

I was accurately townreading players (expect Eggy I guess) and had well-founded suspicions on MattZed. Just because I didn't push my beliefs as I would have as town doesn't mean I wasn't thinking in that way.

It's the type of questions I've asked, zzz.

Fair enough, I already added in nuance to say I wasn't taking it as a strong point anyway, I was responding to Calix looking at it.

It's not accurate. My two POE scums in G2 also happened to be PL candidates (before SJ and SP came in).

'Easier to read' for the town as a whole, not just for me. I haven't played with Yuki nor Ginger before, so this reasoning wasn't geared towards me specifically.
'Easier to read' doesn't guarantee I'll get reads from them.

And I'm null on RLVG and Ginger so 2.

Jealous - Tone, fresh setup spec arguments (Do scum participate in setup spec usually?), looks like a very cautious town with his paranoia.
Calix - Tone, and there are some comments she's made that I don't see scum saying. (No motivation)

What has been the progression in your reads on the Group since #406?

[Calix]

I've seen a number of people who are townreading him for being reasoned and active and "driving the game forward", I can see the first two but definitely not the last one. It's a simple strategy to establish himself as town in the group (esp with the stupid activity = town idea), it's something I've seen others like Cryptonic do time and time again (ex. line by line responses, I think?).

I asked you "why would his change in playstyle be scummy" and I'm not seeing the relevance of this response. A paranoid part of me thinks that you saw one of the G3 members be town-read and you're trying to throw shade on that, given that you noted the town-reads on him in the thread.

Your rebuttal?

NU tried to be more stance-takey in Politico and got staked on it very easily, I could see him changing his approach in this game so I don't really consider that him being different from that scum-meta as a relevant point.

I'd like to see you press him for those stances then. In which posts has he been 'too neutral' and how would avoiding taking a side in said posts help the scum?

I approach playing neuts still from a rather town perspective given that the game would still need to be solved (plus I don't want to be lynched), the difference is in how I pursued those points and whether I'd go against my own points (ex. I was actually townreading MiniZed all the way off my original read in IC, but let it slide through as a ML). There are no neuts in this game so if you want to make some meta judgment on me, it's probably more appropriate to use a Town vs Mafia game.

So Politico. Rest assured, that game is one that I'm keeping in mind

[Calix]

Because I was the neutral, I was busy, and ok.

So you initially said that you referred IC because you were less informed and you were looking for the mafia.

NU challenges this, saying that you weren't hunting for the mafia in IC.

Instead of sticking to your initial stance, you defend against this accusation by saying...that you were the neutral? But you also said that you used the neut game reference because you were hunting for the mafia...

It's not a direct contradiction but I sense that you tried to shift the goal posts a bit and I'd like you to flesh out your reasoning here.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Why do you push the idea of "mafia will pretend to be innocent as much as possible" before actively distancing yourself from this? (by saying 'not my style')

It reads like you are trying to label certain behaviours as scummy and then distance yourself from said behaviour, presumably in an attempt to impress on us that you are town in comparison.

So mafia have to play scum in front of us in order to be lynched?
What's this, beginner difficult?

[Yukitaka Oni]

So mafia have to play scum in front of us in order to be lynched?
What's this, beginner difficult?

Of course one of mafia is going to slipped inside the vote train

[Kovath]

[QUOTE=Calix;634137]I asked you "why would his change in playstyle be scummy" and I'm not seeing the relevance of this response. A paranoid part of me thinks that you saw one of the G3 members be town-read and you're trying to throw shade on that, given that you noted the town-reads on him in the thread.

Your rebuttal?[QUOTE]
Here was the relevant part in the response I provided:

"It's a simple strategy to establish himself as town in the group (esp with the stupid activity = town idea), it's something I've seen others like Cryptonic do time and time again (ex. line by line responses, I think?).

NU tried to be more stance-takey in Politico and got staked on it very easily, I could see him changing his approach in this game so I don't really consider that him being different from that scum-meta as a relevant point."

Get read as town, ML within the group. It's a simple scum motivation; of course in a general level it's hard to distinguish it from the corresponding town motivation, which is why I expanded my analysis to consider how NU has changed in his approach this game and tone.

[QUOTE]I'd like to see you press him for those stances then. In which posts has he been 'too neutral' and how would avoiding taking a side in said posts help the scum?[QUOTE]
Starting to do this, see above. As I said I don't have time to ISO but I distinctly remember reading through his big line-by-line posts and feeling a distinct lack of analytical comments from them, or a bunch of questions for example. Plus his reads of course.

So Politico. Rest assured, that game is one that I'm keeping in mind

I was scum in that game, I am town in this game.

[Kovath]

So you initially said that you referred IC because you were less informed and you were looking for the mafia.

NU challenges this, saying that you weren't hunting for the mafia in IC.

Instead of sticking to your initial stance, you defend against this accusation by saying...that you were the neutral? But you also said that you used the neut game reference because you were hunting for the mafia...

It's not a direct contradiction but I sense that you tried to shift the goal posts a bit and I'd like you to flesh out your reasoning here.

"Because I was the neutral" is a response to his point that I hopped onto the "NU as neutral train", I was responding to his points in order.

[Gingerape]

Theres only like 8 hours left in the day. Im not really good at these preday1 setups where there's no evidence to go off of and you have to use text analysis which is unhelpful for me right now. I don't feel strongly about my groups mafia player.
Everyone else is talking about other games and how everyone's playstyle is different is similar to when they flipped a whatever. I don't have that. I'm not saying being helping is a towntell, I said at least he's not hiding in the shadows and trying to establish reads.

All the people that voted me kinda just did it and left. I'm sure they won't be back in time for day end. That or they'll come back and say some small thing~

[Calix]

I remain unimpressed by the responses, so I'll let you get on with whatever you're doing with NU.

The only part I found vaguely townie was the "I was scum in that game. I am town in this game" comment because of how simple/ natural it is.

[Calix]

Theres only like 8 hours left in the day. Im not really good at these preday1 setups where there's no evidence to go off of and you have to use text analysis which is unhelpful for me right now. I don't feel strongly about my groups mafia player.
Everyone else is talking about other games and how everyone's playstyle is different is similar to when they flipped a whatever. I don't have that. I'm not saying being helping is a towntell, I said at least he's not hiding in the shadows and trying to establish reads.

All the people that voted me kinda just did it and left. I'm sure they won't be back in time for day end. That or they'll come back and say some small thing~

Days are 72 hours long in this setup. 24 hours to vote for a group and 48 hours to lynch. (48 hours is the new site standard btw)

Most of this response reads like someone unused to the current site meta.

[Gingerape]

youre right. I'm not used to this setup.
I was just going off the clock on page 19.

[Calix]

youre right. I'm not used to this setup.
I was just going off the clock on page 19.

Hang on, just checked the setup and realised that you're right, we really only do get 24 hours for Phase II.

Fuck.

[Never Unlucky]

You're not pushing reads, scumteams, etc. like you did in IC for example. Definitely get the sense that something is different.

It's day 1, pushing for scumteams is useless. Just read KC's posts about the Duck/Calix/NU scum-team, it's based on nothing.
Pushing reads and scum teams are all things I did day 2 to solve the game.

Your line-by-lines wasn't the point, it's what you're actually commenting with that strikes me as unusual. I do not get the impression that you are really trying to push a game-solving mindset with those big posts. I would have to do a big ISO to be more specific but I don't have the time.

I’m unsure what gives you this impression.

What has been the progression in your reads on the Group since #406?

I like that you’re trying to scum-hunt me, albeit in a hypocritical way. Some of your points are also caricatures of my posts, and they give me a strong feeling that you’re trying to paint me as scum.
I dislike that you town-read RLVG « because he is pushing Duck », it’s NAI. It’s as easy to do this for scum to deflect off of a pressured scum.
Feels weird that you start being active when your group is being voted and not before.

I’m still not sure what to make of Yuki’s posts. I’d normally scum-read someone who doesn’t contribute the way Yuki does, but she looks and feels like just an innocent townie, idk how to explain.
I’m curious to know what the ploy she’s talking about constantly is.

Ginger seems like he doesn’t care if he’s mislynched as long as Yuki lives which is not what he should be doing if he is town (He is confirmed town to himself). Then again, would scum give up like that?

RLVG giving SuperJack and me technical tips looks like what a scum would do to change the subject though it’s more likely that he was simply being a good guy.

[Gingerape]

;~; is this the part where I'm supposed to claim my role to save myself?

[Calix]

;~; is this the part where I'm supposed to claim my role to save myself?

No. Please don't.

Maybe try defending yourself against the points made against you like a normal person? Shouldn't be hard.

Why are you more focused on saving yourself now when earlier you said you'd rather die over Yuki? What caused this shift?

[Kovath]

I like that you’re trying to scum-hunt me, albeit in a hypocritical way. Some of your points are also caricatures of my posts, and they give me a strong feeling that you’re trying to paint me as scum.
I dislike that you town-read RLVG « because he is pushing Duck », it’s NAI. It’s as easy to do this for scum to deflect off of a pressured scum.
Feels weird that you start being active when your group is being voted and not before.

I’m still not sure what to make of Yuki’s posts. I’d normally scum-read someone who doesn’t contribute the way Yuki does, but she looks and feels like just an innocent townie, idk how to explain.
I’m curious to know what the ploy she’s talking about constantly is.

Ginger seems like he doesn’t care if he’s mislynched as long as Yuki lives which is not what he should be doing if he is town (He is confirmed town to himself). Then again, would scum give up like that?

RLVG giving SuperJack and me technical tips looks like what a scum would do to change the subject though it’s more likely that he was simply being a good guy.

I'm being active when I can, not because it might or might not suit me. Also, I voted for Group 3 so...

I already explained the reasons why I'm townreading RLVG for the push and it isn't because of counter-push or anything like that.

Looks like you think I'm the scum then, eh? Except even then you seem to preface it with "I like that you’re trying to scum-hunt me, albeit in a hypocritical way." Overall, you went about it in a really roundabout way and the reads on the others are really... washy. Rhetorical questions + things like "more likely that he was simply being a good guy" - is there anything else that would further define your reads?

[Calix]

I like that you’re trying to scum-hunt me, albeit in a hypocritical way. Some of your points are also caricatures of my posts, and they give me a strong feeling that you’re trying to paint me as scum.

Give examples please.

I dislike that you town-read RLVG « because he is pushing Duck », it’s NAI. It’s as easy to do this for scum to deflect off of a pressured scum.
Feels weird that you start being active when your group is being voted and not before.

Not a bad point. Kovath helped vote for his own group, however, although given he has admitted to making sub-optimal votes in order to throw people off (ahem, random fucking sheep vote on you in Politico, ahem) I'm not going to give much credence there.

I’m still not sure what to make of Yuki’s posts. I’d normally scum-read someone who doesn’t contribute the way Yuki does, but she looks and feels like just an innocent townie, idk how to explain.
I’m curious to know what the ploy she’s talking about constantly is.

Question. Is it similar to how you were nattering on about Minotarr in the BG?

Ginger seems like he doesn’t care if he’s mislynched as long as Yuki lives which is not what he should be doing if he is town (He is confirmed town to himself). Then again, would scum give up like that?

The only logical reason I can think for making that kind of post is if Yuki/ Ginger are both scum and it's some weird-ass bussing ploy to get Yuki some town cred.

...

Yeah, I don't see this as a likely scenario and I'm not sure why scum would act like that.

RLVG giving SuperJack and me technical tips looks like what a scum would do to change the subject though it’s more likely that he was simply being a good guy.

That's just part of the package when it comes to RLVG. He's done it before as the Host, lol.

[Calix]

@Yukitaka Oni @Gingerape @Kovath @RLVG @Never Unlucky

Seeing as a lot of the G3 players are - or were - around, I have a question.

If you could vote, who would you be voting for and why?

A detailed response = appreciated.

[Calix]

I'm being active when I can, not because it might or might not suit me. Also, I voted for Group 3 so...

I already explained the reasons why I'm townreading RLVG for the push and it isn't because of counter-push or anything like that.

Looks like you think I'm the scum then, eh? Except even then you seem to preface it with "I like that you’re trying to scum-hunt me, albeit in a hypocritical way." Overall, you went about it in a really roundabout way and the reads on the others are really... washy. Rhetorical questions + things like "more likely that he was simply being a good guy" - is there anything else that would further define your reads?

Question. Why would scum open up a read with "I like this point but" instead of just cutting to the chase?

I found the RLVG read to be underwhelming and focused on an irrelevant detail and Yuki's seems to be some kind of gut read.

[Kovath]

Question. Why would scum open up a read with "I like this point but" instead of just cutting to the chase?

I don't see a distinction to whether it's the opening or closing point (if you're trying to imply that) and, to provide fallback / neutrality to the read.

Town could do it naturally, scum have plenty of reason to do it too and his post is full of such things.