S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[Yukitaka Oni]

I'm done for today. Need to start the plan for day 2

[RLVG]

I'm done for today. Need to start the plan for day 2

Plan for Day 2? But all sort of things can happen after the flip and the night actions!

[Gingerape]

Dont leave yukihara! I just got here for a moment...aw..
RLVG you know me so well ^^ i must be silly, I don't understand why I would want attention from mafia if I was mafia..except traitor I guess. it's a shame you're in the same group as me and one of us five won't make it out alive.
I am gonna yell at yukihara if she calls my posts fluff again.
I wish I could be here more. I'm busy today. I'll try to come back more later

[secondpassing]

Hi~

[RLVG]

RLVG you know me so well ^^

Is this a confirmation that I'm correct about you?

[Never Unlucky]

Yuki - Gut tells me he's town, but I don't really find town motives behind his posts. I know you'll discredit me for this, but I think that he's too "dumb to be scum".
It felt weird that he called out Group 3 for not scum-hunting each other when he hasn't been doing it himself.
Ginger - Town tone, posts feel like IIOA, and I'm questioning the motives behind saying that Shapelog stole the "oh I didn't know how many scum there were, I am therefore town" thing from him.
Kovath - Politico-scum!Kovath (and IC-neutral!Kovath during day 2) kept his activity to a bare minimum due to RL events and flew under the town's radar. His inactivity this game feels like Déjà vu in that sense. Could be a coincidence.
Found his reasoning for town-reading RLVG unnatural, it felt like something Unknown would say.
RLVG - Well reasoned player whose posts I like. Didn't notice anything AI in his comments yet.

You just join less than 5 hours, but yeah, you're fine for me so far. Why not?
I have a lot of questions for Never Unlucky, but he's not here so i wait
Kovath: he did mention that me and him haven't touch him, but it's time for me to read him
Gingerape: Ginger do have soul......i know it's a old player, but i have no information of play style. So far i prefer to be quiet and watching the play style

I'm here.

[secondpassing]

Since I have an unfair advantage ^^ (I was following the thread from my D850, I'm up to page 13 or something)
I'm going to use it.

Reads-
Calix. Mixed Read, currently WIFOMing my read on her
Never Unlucky. Mixed Read, someone needs to take those rose tinted glasses off him. Maybe a little bit scummier leaning than Calix
RLVG. Town, knows WIFOM but currently not using it.

Gingerape-tama. Probably scum.. T.T
Yukitake Onibaba. Town
Duckky-chan. Sounds like what he says he is. Probably being 100% honest
Titus-kaasan. Probably scum
Klingoncelty- Town leany

[secondpassing]

Also, please no racist comments.
I'm African American.
v)o.o)v

[RLVG]

Duckky-chan. Sounds like what he says he is. Probably being 100% honest

If he's 100% honest, then you believe in a mechanic that obscures the role and alignment of a player for a certain amount of time, on a setup that says no bastardization.

Never Unlucky. Mixed Read, someone needs to take those rose tinted glasses off him. Maybe a little bit scummier leaning than Calix
Gingerape-tama. Probably scum.. T.T
Yukitake Onibaba. Town

Could you expand on these reads, since we're in a situation that we can only vote to lynch 5 certain players?
You can expand on me too, the fact I'm not using WIFOM doesn't really cut it lol.
Add in Kovath too.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Also, please no racist comments.
I'm African American.
v)o.o)v

Ni.....g.....ce to meet you......

[secondpassing]

If he's 100% honest, then you believe in a mechanic that obscures the role and alignment of a player for a certain amount of time, on a setup that says no bastardization.



Could you expand on these reads, since we're in a situation that we can only vote to lynch 5 certain players?
You can expand on me too, the fact I'm not using WIFOM doesn't really cut it lol.
Add in Kovath too.

Heck no, am I going to expand on these reads. I was reading this thread like a light novel, not like I was playing it.
Maybe I'll expand once I'm done.

Also Jealous. That's a bad bad man. Definitely hiding under a guise.

Couldn't even tell Kovath was in this game. Think he posted like twice to ask questions. Probably a bad bad man, but not as bad as Jealous.

[RLVG]

Also, please no racist comments.
I'm African American.
v)o.o)v

I expected you to be a new yorker or something. ^)P,q)^

RLVG - Well reasoned player whose posts I like. Didn't notice anything AI in his comments yet.

Well reasoned? Calix, Duck and a few select others certainly disagree with my reasoning, What's your take on that? What about my arguments towards Duck?
Also, AI?

[Never Unlucky]

Since I have an unfair advantage ^^ (I was following the thread from my D850, I'm up to page 13 or something)
I'm going to use it.

Reads-
Calix. Mixed Read, currently WIFOMing my read on her

What do you mean?

Never Unlucky. Mixed Read, someone needs to take those rose tinted glasses off him. Maybe a little bit scummier leaning than Calix
RLVG. Town, knows WIFOM but currently not using it.

How is knowing WIFOM a town-tell?

Gingerape-tama. Probably scum.. T.T

Explain this read.

Yukitake Onibaba. Town
Duckky-chan. Sounds like what he says he is. Probably being 100% honest

Titus-kaasan. Probably scum

What makes you feel this way?

Klingoncelty- Town leany

I'm intrigued with this read. Kling hasn't done anything that warrants a town-read in my book.

Also, please no racist comments.
I'm African American.
v)o.o)v

Did anyone make a racist comment?

[Gingerape]

RLVG. Asking me so directly in front of everyone? You're making me blush. If I say I love you then you might save me today at the cost of my goal of being useful.
I'm kinda driving.
Ooh hi second passing. You think I'm scum but I'm using the green text. What's going on in your mind??

[Yukitaka Oni]

Yuki - Gut tells me he's town, but I don't really find town motives behind his posts. I know you'll discredit me for this, but I think that he's too "dumb to be scum".
It felt weird that he called out Group 3 for not scum-hunting each other when he hasn't been doing it himself.
Ginger - Town tone, posts feel like IIOA, and I'm questioning the motives behind saying that Shapelog stole the "oh I didn't know how many scum there were, I am therefore town" thing from him.
Kovath - Politico-scum!Kovath (and IC-neutral!Kovath during day 2) kept his activity to a bare minimum due to RL events and flew under the town's radar. His inactivity this game feels like Déjà vu in that sense. Could be a coincidence.
Found his reasoning for town-reading RLVG unnatural, it felt like something Unknown would say.
RLVG - Well reasoned player whose posts I like. Didn't notice anything AI in his comments yet.



I'm here.

RLVG is not like himself this game, and not even buddying with Calix for some reason. The question is: what will you do if one day, your friend is NOT on your side. What will you do?
- Most of the time when being pressured, more scum defend me than town, question: do you think it will happen again in this game?
- The setup is a hidden completely: question: do you think there is any chance we have less citizen than TP role?

[RLVG]

Couldn't even tell Kovath was in this game. Think he posted like twice to ask questions. Probably a bad bad man, but not as bad as Jealous.

Lol, semi-misrep. It's 9 posts.

Why were you originally planning to vote your own group?

Your one-game experience with Yuki was IM, wasn't it? How can you judge "day 2 player" off that?

What made you change your mind about RLVG?

Also, Calix is correct and I am currently out-of-town in a tournament. I will try my best but nowhere close to my normal activity levels. I'll be present for several-hour intervals around days.

What do you even mean here lol, you first say he is probably a town role and then just say he's not a good lynch?

The setup has nothing at all about a scum N0 chat (unless it's a hidden mechanic in which case... fk me lol). So, this exchange strikes me as strange because Duck first suggests N0 coordination as what would probably be the case if he was mafia and had pre-planned this. Assuming that Duck has fully read through the setup, why wouldn't Duck immediately rule out that possibility for him as mafia in either his original post or after Calix brought it up? Or at least make some comment about it to reinforce his point that he wasn't lying in his claim?

Drunk Duck might be the explanation for this, however, and I don't think he was lying about being drunk lol. The primary no-lynch perspective otherwise I might see for this would be that he is approaching this game as town and thus brushes past it because then he would 'know' that he was town, but I am unsure whether he is able to so strongly believe it. All that said, there will probably be better lynches than Duck today.

Finished eating. Rip, only have one hour until next round...

I'm fine with Group 3 getting voted.

-vote Group 3

Assuming Group 3 goes through, right now I'm looking to lynch between Gingerape and Never Unlucky I think.

Probably NU atm, I need to look again closely at his posts but there were some weird things I didn't like.

Townreading RLVG for his pushing against Duck, actually, and Yuki has done nothing to ping me yet.

I'm undecided on Duck's claim, I don't think he's getting lynched today though.

It's not your arguments that has me townreading you, but the fact that (and how) that you're making them. It would be very easy for a Mafia to kinda brush the claim aside for now as others like Calix have done, however your continued pushing of it has little scum motivation and gives the impression of a town who actually does think Duck's claim is BS.

I'm not townreading him off his pushing because it was a push against the PL thing but for other reasons. See #309, basically little scum motivation in the push now that Duck's reversed his position + very easy for Mafia to have conformed with a "let's leave Duck alone" position like you and others have taken.


Duck is the unique outlier in regards to reads because of his claim. He's either Mafia and lying or literally a blank slate with no alignment. I'd rather read him tomorrow, and his not getting lynched reinforces that.

I like that you bring it up too, are you going to take it any further or just leave it hanging there?

You're just the person who did so that I remember, I think Titus did so too? Just the first person that came to mind in order to make my point that RLVG could have easily conformed.

Yup, and see above.

I'm not passing judgment on anyone other than RLVG.

I'm going to be gone for a number of hours but later this evening should be a time when I can be online for a longer period.

[secondpassing]

I feel like I should answer questions instead of read, because my reads 100% third party at this point.

[RLVG]

RLVG is not like himself this game, and not even buddying with Calix for some reason.

Again with this shit about RLVG + Someone? You like to associate players.



And I'm not like myself in this game?
Let's see...

I guess I have random bipolarism or something that I am surpressing. >)o.O)>

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Catching up currently, just got home from the ocean.

Quote me the Miller rolecard from the setup, thanks.

I specifically said in my post I was paraphrasing as to not get modkilled for something stupid. I said "I am essentially "miller"", I was not outright told the role "miller", I was told my identity was stolen and checks would be swapped against me.

I think I saw the vote count on players now which means discussing me until tomorrow is a waste of time. I do not have this personal vendetta you think I have, but I pray to fucking god I get town so I can fucking eviscerate you tomorrow.

[RLVG]

For some reason the 2nd quote didn't exist.

- Most of the time when being pressured, more scum defend me than town, question: do you think it will happen again in this game?
- The setup is a hidden completely: question: do you think there is any chance we have less citizen than TP role?

I dunno, scum like to white knight town to look town themselves. It's not exactly alignment telling.
If the setup were completely hidden, then yeah it's highly possible that we have less Citizen than power roles.

[RLVG]

I specifically said in my post I was paraphrasing as to not get modkilled for something stupid. I said "I am essentially "miller"", I was not outright told the role "miller", I was told my identity was stolen and checks would be swapped against me.

1. You don't know your Role.
2. You don't know your Alignment.
3. You receive no hint of your Win Condition.
4. You're told that you're a Miller.
5. This Miller in question doesn't make you look scummy, but that checks would be swapped against you?

What the fuck is this bullshit hidden mechanic you're speaking of?

I pray to fucking god I get town so I can fucking eviscerate you tomorrow.

[RLVG]

I was told my identity was stolen

Actually, I didn't read this part.

Add a .6 to this, what the fuck!

[SuperJack]

I'm going to get some sleep, then I'm off too work tomorrow.
Hopefully whilst at work I will read the setup and the chat.
After that, when I come home I will participate.

If anyone has any problems they can keep it to themselves.

[RLVG]

I'm going to get some sleep, then I'm off too work tomorrow.
Hopefully whilst at work I will read the setup and the chat.
After that, when I come home I will participate.

If anyone has any problems they can keep it to themselves.

Ain't you freaking helpful.

Were you lurking?

[secondpassing]

If he's 100% honest, then you believe in a mechanic that obscures the role and alignment of a player for a certain amount of time, on a setup that says no bastardization.

You can expand on me too, the fact I'm not using WIFOM doesn't really cut it lol.

Okay, looking back, I am biased in that aspect. I didn't really care to analyze it, because as a reader, I would have found out later. It wouldn't have been like a player who was going to lose. I'll consider this.

Ni.....g.....ce to meet you......

Ni....g...ce to meet you too...

What do you mean?

How is knowing WIFOM a town-tell?

Explain this read.

What makes you feel this way?

I'm intrigued with this read. Kling hasn't done anything that warrants a town-read in my book.


Did anyone make a racist comment?

Calix said somewhere that she rolled town for like the past x games/months or whatever. Would probably have done that as scum ending a long town streak.

RLVG knows I'm easily manipulate-able. I didn't say it was a town tell, not what I'm referring to.

Gingerape-tama sounds like a scum.

"Yukitake Onibaba. Town
Duckky-chan. Sounds like what he says he is. Probably being 100% honest
Titus-kaasan. Probably scum"
Forgot why.

Celty didn't do anything town in my book either. Doesn't matter.

Yes, a ni.....g...ce person did it.

RLVG. Asking me so directly in front of everyone? You're making me blush. If I say I love you then you might save me today at the cost of my goal of being useful.
I'm kinda driving.
Ooh hi second passing. You think I'm scum but I'm using the green text. What's going on in your mind??

You're cute, but you should ask RLVG out!

Lol, semi-misrep. It's 9 posts.

Third-parties don't care about misrep.

[secondpassing]

@Gingerape What outside influences happen to you when you play mafia? Do you listen to music? If so, what do you listen to? Again, do you listen to music as you play mafia?
More importantly, what do you do in real life when you feel scared of Calix-san/anybody else that pressures you?

What is your opinion on null-reads, do you make null-reads? Can a player really be a null?

Which people do you know better than others here? (Who can you meta read better?)

[RLVG]

Okay, looking back, I am biased in that aspect. I didn't really care to analyze it, because as a reader, I would have found out later. It wouldn't have been like a player who was going to lose. I'll consider this.

At least you see the bias, don't agree to something you don't know.

RLVG knows I'm easily manipulate-able.

You're cute, but you should ask RLVG out!

If I remember right, there's a thing with Ginger and Blazer.

[Gingerape]

Kyu. I'm driving.

[SuperJack]

Ain't you freaking helpful.

Were you lurking?

Nope, logged on to try and get my role, then i made my way home. Then I am now home and getting ready for bed.
Gdnight Pal.

[RLVG]

@Gingerape What outside influences happen to you when you play mafia? Do you listen to music? If so, what do you listen to? Again, do you listen to music as you play mafia?
More importantly, what do you do in real life when you feel scared of Calix-san/anybody else that pressures you?

Are you attempting a Reverse-Ad Hominem using music?

[Never Unlucky]

RLVG is not like himself this game, and not even buddying with Calix for some reason.

What conclusion do you make of this statement?

Is he not himself because he's not buddying Calix or for other reasons too?

The question is: what will you do if one day, your friend is NOT on your side. What will you do?

Assuming you're talking about Calix?

I'll play to achieve my win-con.

- Most of the time when being pressured, more scum defend me than town, question: do you think it will happen again in this game?

It depends on how you're read by individuals, obviously.

Why are you asking this? It almost feels like a scum soft-claim.

- The setup is a hidden completely: question: do you think there is any chance we have less citizen than TP role?

No, as that would make for a bad setup. To quote Quick in the signup thread

Special Note: this is not a role madness game.

[secondpassing]

At least you see the bias, don't agree to something you don't know.
IMAGE

If I remember right, there's a thing with Ginger and Blazer.

K. Thanks.

RLVG, you said that somewhere post-game. Can't remember where. Either way, original point is: I view you as town.

Oh. That means you can finally get married to Calix without a harem.
^Old references

Are you attempting a Reverse-Ad Hominem using music?

Had to look up how to do that.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I feel like yuki is going to get lynched for his typing style and lack of contribution rather than the fact he is scummy. I do not think yuki is the correct lynch currently.


The two most vocal players in the game were town reading NU compared to his group, it is possible scum see this and were fine pushing group 3.

Contribution from ginger/kovath will be the most important in whether or not we get a successful hit today or not, IMO. Ginger has been very towny for me, but I can't overlook the obvious traitor breadcrumb which I fail to see any town motivation in or reason to do it in the first place.

Kovath and RLVG both going on me is interesting. Kovath is more questioning while RLVG is attacking and denying the claim. The first game I played with RLVG he tunneled me for 3 straight days based on a very similar scenario. (I breadcrumbed an evil role based on the setup RP) It seems like he is more focused on tunneling me rather than finding out my alignment. While I don't actually have an alignment to find out, he does not believe my claim so in his mind I should have an alignment to find. If this were the case we need to look at the agenda I am putting forward.

I have given almost exclusively town reads while only mentioning slightly scummy things people have done. I have been pushing the game forward (feel free to argue this point) in discussing optimal town play, trying to develop a strong town circle, and give us the best option for a hit. I picked a lynch group, and then was swayed that another group might be better. Look at how I wanted to lynch. You say I am playing against my win condition, BUT MY LYNCH TARGET MATCHES A NO ALIGNMENT PLAYER. I wanted to lynch someone I thought was not going to participate which is good for the game overall. When I noticed that people in RLVG's group were possibly scum based on several scummy things players had done, I literally flipped my reads MID POST. This shows a level of reevaluation that is not as often done by scum.

If you think I am scum I feel I have been pro-town and anti-mafia unless you can find motivation in my posts that says contrary.

Also, if you are sure I am scum you better be voting NU. I have scum read three people in group c, tried to Policy one of them, and town read never unlucky. While mafia are not going to make their alignment so black and white, it would be risky to push a group and then add fuel to existing mafia reads on my own partners.

Based on rlvg attacking the SETUP portion of my claim, and not MY ACTIONS after the claim, I have to decide whether this is the town rlvg who tunnels on me for stupid reasons, or if he is scum, I am town, and that he is trying to get me lynched based off his incorrect assumption that I am "low-hanging fruit" despite never being miss lynched. I am leaning towards, I don't know to be honest will have to re read his posts when I can think clearly and make a decision before end of day.

Kovath is interesting. We talk a lot outside of game so we know how each other play somewhat well. He knows that I was anticipating what he would do in the last Instant Mafia game, so if he is scum he would know what I expect of him. I am leaning towards him being busy and not wanting to touch me until tomorrow means he cares to learn my alignment. He knows how evident my town play is, and if I survive the night and see a town role, the whole world will know.


To wrap up my thoughts, as they have sort of shifted a little as I was typing this.

Kovath - I see town motivation in wanting me to be looked at tomorrow, he is moved to null again and I would not vote him.

RLVG - Tunneling town or Mafia who made a huge blunder with poor assumptions and is trying to pull a fast one based on terrible reasoning. I want to hear a lot more from him. Null, but heavily will swing to one side based on future posts.

Ginger- I need to go back and read some of her? latest posts while I was packing and traveling. I think the breadcrumbing was bad, but I also think her playing along with my analogy was as good as the breadcrumb was bad. Mafia want to derail discussion and will usually ignore stupid scenarios. She went out of her way to get our minds to reach a mutual understanding. I think if a mafia did entertain my stuff they would try to be more manipulative in doing so. I also want to hear a lot more from them.

Yuki - My personal experience with him is not weighted heavily as it is one game. I hated his start in both games, in Instant Mafia he stepped up his play. I do not think he is flailing like a mafia would, and I see the momentum against him as a likely miss lynch. I will consider voting him because he has not been towny and is thus is lynchable, but I really do not think this is going to work out well for town.

NU- I liked that they came in and interjected somewhat often. I did not see too much, and need to go back and reread this slot. I vaguely remember from memory sheeping calix? and being pretty accepting of me. These are pretty scummy, but he has had a town town, and I remember shaking my head yes when I was laying in my bed and scrolling through last night.

[RLVG]

The first game I played with RLVG he tunneled me for 3 straight days based on a very similar scenario. (I breadcrumbed an evil role based on the setup RP)

I can confirm this was the case.

Based on rlvg attacking the SETUP portion of my claim, and not MY ACTIONS after the claim, I have to decide whether this is the town rlvg who tunnels on me for stupid reasons, or if he is scum, I am town, and that he is trying to get me lynched based off his incorrect assumption that I am "low-hanging fruit" despite never being miss lynched. I am leaning towards, I don't know to be honest will have to re read his posts when I can think clearly and make a decision before end of day.

There's so much wrong with your setup claim rather than the action of it though. It just doesn't make sense and it get wilder each time.

RLVG - Tunneling town or Mafia who made a huge blunder with poor assumptions and is trying to pull a fast one based on terrible reasoning. I want to hear a lot more from him. Null, but heavily will swing to one side based on future posts.

Lol, poor assumptions.
"Trying to pull a fast one", "terrible reasoning".
"Want to hear a lot more from him".

I already gave my reasoning that I think it's plain bullshit, I'm attacking who I genuinely think is scummy.
Haven't I posted more than sufficiently today?

[secondpassing]

Hey @Never Unlucky I'm reading #245 and I'm intrigued. How are you currently feeling? Are you under pressure? How are you feeling about Yuki and Gingerape-- could one of them be scum? Could both?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I can confirm this was the case.



There's so much wrong with your setup claim rather than the action of it though. It just doesn't make sense and it get wilder each time.



Lol, poor assumptions.
"Trying to pull a fast one", "terrible reasoning".
"Want to hear a lot more from him".

I already gave my reasoning that I think it's plain bullshit, I'm attacking who I genuinely think is scummy.
Haven't I posted more than sufficiently today?

Your post count is fine, but I am conflicted if you are town or mafia. You gave given plenty of thoughts on it yes, but it is not enough for me right now to make a decision on potential MYLO.

You can say there is a lot wrong with my claim, but I can't do anything about my situation.

If we think about my meta, this does not fit into it. I play standard, and then I fake claim as both alignments. As town I will fake claim any and every role. As mafia I will only fake claim sheriff. Lets look at WHY I fake claim sheriff. I like to control the pace of game and lead town. My activity aids this and I am arrogant enough to believe my reads are better than others. In recent games (instant mafia) I was willing to take a back seat and let other towns lead the lynch between two players (almost lost the game because of this), but I like to be in control. If I come out and say "Duck is mafia" nobody will believe me. If I come out and say "I am sheriff, Duck is mafia" people will listen and sheep me.

If I was going to fake a claim I would do something that helps me gain control, not put targets on my back. I have played the mod enough to learn that people get myopic and tunnel on stupid things. Maybe its bad luck, maybe its karma, maybe its boy who cried wolf, but I can't help what information or role I am given. If you disagree with me revealing what I did, we can talk about if it was a mistake to inform town during post game.

[RLVG]

As town I will fake claim any and every role.

Just a FYI, this is a shitty meta and a potential game ruiner.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Just a FYI, this is a shitty meta and a potential game ruiner.

I know, its my style, most if not all disagree with it. Meh.

Okay So apparently 3 in game days includes night phase so we have even less time then I thought, which is good for overall game length, bad for our current situation.

Unless someone wants to continue to discuss something specific about me, I think it is more beneficial to delay the conversation until later.

What are your current reads on the people in your group and do you have any leans on what group has 2 mafia?

[Never Unlucky]

I feel like yuki is going to get lynched for his typing style and lack of contribution rather than the fact he is scummy. I do not think yuki is the correct lynch currently.

The two most vocal players in the game were town reading NU compared to his group, it is possible scum see this and were fine pushing group 3.

Your point is very strong, but it is taken out of context. For a long time, the 4 votes G3 had were Calix, mckd, GingerApe, Yuki, Kovath and myself -- You don't know your alignment, I (and you) think Calix is town, and the 4 others are all from my group. Seeing as there is a maximum of 2 scum/group, I don't think your point is valid.

Titus and RLVG voted in a context of "EoD", they voted so there wouldn't be a no-lynch.

Contribution from ginger/kovath will be the most important in whether or not we get a successful hit today or not, IMO. Ginger has been very towny for me, but I can't overlook the obvious traitor breadcrumb which I fail to see any town motivation in or reason to do it in the first place.

Kovath and RLVG both going on me is interesting. Kovath is more questioning while RLVG is attacking and denying the claim. The first game I played with RLVG he tunneled me for 3 straight days based on a very similar scenario. (I breadcrumbed an evil role based on the setup RP) It seems like he is more focused on tunneling me rather than finding out my alignment. While I don't actually have an alignment to find out, he does not believe my claim so in his mind I should have an alignment to find. If this were the case we need to look at the agenda I am putting forward.

What conclusion do you make of this?

I have given almost exclusively town reads while only mentioning slightly scummy things people have done. I have been pushing the game forward (feel free to argue this point) in discussing optimal town play, trying to develop a strong town circle, and give us the best option for a hit. I picked a lynch group, and then was swayed that another group might be better. Look at how I wanted to lynch. You say I am playing against my win condition, BUT MY LYNCH TARGET MATCHES A NO ALIGNMENT PLAYER. I wanted to lynch someone I thought was not going to participate which is good for the game overall. When I noticed that people in RLVG's group were possibly scum based on several scummy things players had done, I literally flipped my reads MID POST. This shows a level of reevaluation that is not as often done by scum.

Or by any player. I don't know many people who don't edit their posts other than you and (probably) Eggy. If the normal player changes his mind whilst writing a post, he will make changes accordingly.

If you think I am scum I feel I have been pro-town and anti-mafia unless you can find motivation in my posts that says contrary.

Also, if you are sure I am scum you better be voting NU. I have scum read three people in group c, tried to Policy one of them, and town read never unlucky. While mafia are not going to make their alignment so black and white, it would be risky to push a group and then add fuel to existing mafia reads on my own partners.

Based on rlvg attacking the SETUP portion of my claim, and not MY ACTIONS after the claim, I have to decide whether this is the town rlvg who tunnels on me for stupid reasons, or if he is scum, I am town, and that he is trying to get me lynched based off his incorrect assumption that I am "low-hanging fruit" despite never being miss lynched. I am leaning towards, I don't know to be honest will have to re read his posts when I can think clearly and make a decision before end of day.

Kovath is interesting. We talk a lot outside of game so we know how each other play somewhat well. He knows that I was anticipating what he would do in the last Instant Mafia game, so if he is scum he would know what I expect of him. I am leaning towards him being busy and not wanting to touch me until tomorrow means he cares to learn my alignment. He knows how evident my town play is, and if I survive the night and see a town role, the whole world will know.


To wrap up my thoughts, as they have sort of shifted a little as I was typing this.

Kovath - I see town motivation in wanting me to be looked at tomorrow, he is moved to null again and I would not vote him.

Could you see this as a scum trying to stall the game?

RLVG - Tunneling town or Mafia who made a huge blunder with poor assumptions and is trying to pull a fast one based on terrible reasoning. I want to hear a lot more from him. Null, but heavily will swing to one side based on future posts.

Ginger- I need to go back and read some of her? latest posts while I was packing and traveling. I think the breadcrumbing was bad, but I also think her playing along with my analogy was as good as the breadcrumb was bad. Mafia want to derail discussion and will usually ignore stupid scenarios. She went out of her way to get our minds to reach a mutual understanding. I think if a mafia did entertain my stuff they would try to be more manipulative in doing so. I also want to hear a lot more from them.

If they want to derail discussion, wouldn't they in the contrary be more inclined to debate about 'stupid scenarios'?

Yuki - My personal experience with him is not weighted heavily as it is one game. I hated his start in both games, in Instant Mafia he stepped up his play. I do not think he is flailing like a mafia would, and I see the momentum against him as a likely miss lynch. I will consider voting him because he has not been towny and is thus is lynchable, but I really do not think this is going to work out well for town.

I personally don't see the difference between Yuki and Ginger's plays. What makes you feel like Ginger feels towny and not Yuki ?

NU- I liked that they came in and interjected somewhat often. I did not see too much, and need to go back and reread this slot. I vaguely remember from memory sheeping calix? and being pretty accepting of me. These are pretty scummy, but he has had a town town, and I remember shaking my head yes when I was laying in my bed and scrolling through last night.

The timing of my votes definitely make it seem like I sheeped Calix. I voted G1 during the RVS due to only knowing MZ from this group. When Calix pointed out that my group was going to be the easier one to read player-wise, I agreed with her reasoning and followed her vote. I guess it is sheeping though I don't think it was 'unhealthy sheeping'.

How is being accepting of a slot scummy? Do you see my interaction with you as potential buddying?

[Never Unlucky]

Hey @Never Unlucky I'm reading #245 and I'm intrigued. How are you currently feeling? Are you under pressure? How are you feeling about Yuki and Gingerape-- could one of them be scum? Could both?

From my reads list:

"Yuki - Gut tells me he's town, but I don't really find town motives behind his posts. I know you'll discredit me for this, but I think that he's too "dumb to be scum".
It felt weird that he called out Group 3 for not scum-hunting each other when he hasn't been doing it himself.
Ginger - Town tone, posts feel like IIOA, and I'm questioning the motives behind saying that Shapelog stole the "oh I didn't know how many scum there were, I am therefore town" thing from him."

Your post has me intrigued too. I realize that I consider both of these slots to be the same due to play style (Trolly) , yet I am giving Yuki a favorable read and not Ginger. Will reflect on that.

I'm feeling calm I'd say.

Yes, I am under pressure as is everyone in my group.

Could both be scum? I don't think so. I don't see why both would've voted their own group when Yuki is scum-read by most players. Scum-team!Yuki+Ginger would've pushed for another group imo.

[Never Unlucky]

@PLZLEAVEDUCKK I messed up the quoting tags in post #439. Hope you can notice the questions/answers I've provided.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I personally don't see the difference between Yuki and Ginger's plays. What makes you feel like Ginger feels towny and not Yuki ?



The timing of my votes definitely make it seem like I sheeped Calix. I voted G1 during the RVS due to only knowing MZ from this group. When Calix pointed out that my group was going to be the easier one to read player-wise, I agreed with her reasoning and followed her vote. I guess it is sheeping though I don't think it was 'unhealthy sheeping'.

How is being accepting of a slot scummy? Do you see my interaction with you as potential buddying?

(there may be content posts I missed around 10am-3pm and 4-7pm est, but I do not think so as I believe I skimmed and caught up somewhat)

I don't think yuki has given a single read, question, or anything. He has responded to a few things, but has in no way generated ideas that I have seen.

Ginger as I mentioned in the post had a back and forth with me when I was questioning her defensiveness. She has posted several times later that I saw, but did not read with much scrutiny yet. I see elements of critical thinking and out of the box thinking that would indicate town.

I don't really hold vote timings against players, but I just wanted to note it. My reads are also my personal notes for me to look back on and progress upon. The reason I thought it was odd YOU kind of just went along and believed me is because we have played many games on the mod in the past several days. You were very similar when i was mayor and you were scum and too lazy to claim a role. You let town follow me to a jester demise. Fuck that 50/50. I do not think you are buddying, I think you are potentially a good mafia(alignment) player. Hold on my fucking dog is blind and deaf and screaming to get inside.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Nope, I did not.

Your point is very strong, but it is taken out of context. For a long time, the 4 votes G3 had were Calix, mckd, GingerApe, Yuki, Kovath and myself -- You don't know your alignment, I (and you) think Calix is town, and the 4 others are all from my group. Seeing as there is a maximum of 2 scum/group, I don't think your point is valid.

Titus and RLVG voted in a context of "EoD", they voted so there wouldn't be a no-lynch.

I was in a 3 hour drive during this time, so I was unaware of the context, fair point. I will say you should know for certainty that my point is invalid by you knowing you are town? It was a hypothetical that only works if you are the scum in group 3 :P

What conclusion do you make of this?

Do not have a set conclusion, but I am leaning towards Kovath as town, RLVG mafia. It is possible both are town which is why I want to hear more of RLVG's thoughts, and not just on myself where I will be biased because I KNOW that I am not lying. I am going to negatively view RLVG for going against my claim as false because I know it cant be false. I realize he does not have that information, but it will not stop my bias if the whole read is based on his interaction with me. If RLVG is mafia, I am always town, I do not see him bussing me when I will know he is my teammate tomorrow.

Or by any player. I don't know many people who don't edit their posts other than you and (probably) Eggy. If the normal player changes his mind whilst writing a post, he will make changes accordingly.

To be fair that is all WIFOM, but you can ask Kovath that if I openly say something like that it is always true no matter what. If I end up rolling mafia this game or in future games maybe I will change the way I type posts up, but I have been town in all but one game, and I feel with my high post count, posting raw thoughts allows people to correctly identify that I am town. I want to post a lot, and I want to give my chance as many opportunities to slip as possible so that people realize that I actually am unaware of my alignment this game, and hopefully will be aware I am town tomorrow(big money big money no mafioso, stop!)

Could you see this as a scum trying to stall the game?

Not his style, he has honor.

If they want to derail discussion, wouldn't they in the contrary be more inclined to debate about 'stupid scenarios'?

I personally like them, others don't. I think that is a fair point, but if you read up on what she said, and then I think what she said in a follow up post, she was engaging with the scenario. She even revamped the scenario to make her point stronger. I think a scum gives some form of troll answer.

[Never Unlucky]

If we think about my meta, this does not fit into it. I play standard, and then I fake claim as both alignments. As town I will fake claim any and every role. As mafia I will only fake claim sheriff. Lets look at WHY I fake claim sheriff. I like to control the pace of game and lead town. My activity aids this and I am arrogant enough to believe my reads are better than others. In recent games (instant mafia) I was willing to take a back seat and let other towns lead the lynch between two players (almost lost the game because of this), but I like to be in control. If I come out and say "Duck is mafia" nobody will believe me. If I come out and say "I am sheriff, Duck is mafia" people will listen and sheep me.

I thought this shitty habit of only following leads was only a mod cancer zzz.

(there may be content posts I missed around 10am-3pm and 4-7pm est, but I do not think so as I believe I skimmed and caught up somewhat)

I don't think yuki has given a single read, question, or anything. He has responded to a few things, but has in no way generated ideas that I have seen.

He's tried making reads, but his reasoning for each read was literally stating that he didn't have a read on said player, lmao.

I understand your point though.

Ginger as I mentioned in the post had a back and forth with me when I was questioning her defensiveness. She has posted several times later that I saw, but did not read with much scrutiny yet. I see elements of critical thinking and out of the box thinking that would indicate town.

I don't really hold vote timings against players, but I just wanted to note it. My reads are also my personal notes for me to look back on and progress upon. The reason I thought it was odd YOU kind of just went along and believed me is because we have played many games on the mod in the past several days. You were very similar when i was mayor and you were scum and too lazy to claim a role. You let town follow me to a jester demise. Fuck that 50/50. I do not think you are buddying, I think you are potentially a good mafia(alignment) player. Hold on my fucking dog is blind and deaf and screaming to get inside.

In that mod game you're referring to, I was just conceding you the win (3v2v1 with 2 confirmed town and a citizen with a vest). I believed your claim for reasons I detailed in a RLVG reply, and they weren't similar to that mod play.

To be fair, we should never be comparing FM to mod mafia. I doubt that you leave a FM game when town doesn't follow you or when you roll a role you dislike and that you claim mafia day 1 as mafia in FM. My mod play and my FM play are very different at least.

"I think you are potentially a good mafia(alignement) player." I hear Calix laughing through her sleep.

Also, you missed some points I made in my last wallpost that was a reply to yours. They're stuck in your quotes.

[Titus]

As always. The first voter is always the newbie, why I'm not surprised.....newbie, that's why

Hahahaha.

[Titus]

Yuki - Gut tells me he's town, but I don't really find town motives behind his posts. I know you'll discredit me for this, but I think that he's too "dumb to be scum".
It felt weird that he called out Group 3 for not scum-hunting each other when he hasn't been doing it himself.
Ginger - Town tone, posts feel like IIOA, and I'm questioning the motives behind saying that Shapelog stole the "oh I didn't know how many scum there were, I am therefore town" thing from him.
Kovath - Politico-scum!Kovath (and IC-neutral!Kovath during day 2) kept his activity to a bare minimum due to RL events and flew under the town's radar. His inactivity this game feels like Déjà vu in that sense. Could be a coincidence.
Found his reasoning for town-reading RLVG unnatural, it felt like something Unknown would say.
RLVG - Well reasoned player whose posts I like. Didn't notice anything AI in his comments yet.



I'm here.

Too dumb to scum is not a thing.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I thought this shitty habit of only following leads was only a mod cancer zzz.



He's tried making reads, but his reasoning for each read was literally stating that he didn't have a read on said player, lmao.

I understand your point though.



In that mod game you're referring to, I was just conceding you the win (3v2v1 with 2 confirmed town and a citizen with a vest). I believed your claim for reasons I detailed in a RLVG reply, and they weren't similar to that mod play.

To be fair, we should never be comparing FM to mod mafia. I doubt that you leave a FM game when town doesn't follow you or when you roll a role you dislike and that you claim mafia day 1 as mafia in FM. My mod play and my FM play are very different at least.

"I think you are potentially a good mafia(alignement) player." I hear Calix laughing through her sleep.

Also, you missed some points I made in my last wallpost that was a reply to yours. They're stuck in your quotes.

Think about it from my perspective though. Mafia knows I am not lying, only town have to truly question me. If you are mafia, you know I am earnest. Calix and I will have the most posts per day of players here. We will influence others and try to lead in some way, and it is in scums best interest to join the ride while not looking like they are doing that. You said yourself good luck lynching calix, and it is the same with me. Getting on calix's good side, and then being with duck the whole way through is going to set you into a strong town position regardless of your alignment. If you are mafia you know I will be receiving a town role tonight, and my play on day 2 will display town. It is better for you to be like... his play was so pro town, I was with him the whole way! This is why I think if you are mafia it is a sneaky and good play to implant yourself with the vocal hard to eliminate towns. Not to mention the bodyguard potential makes removing hard to lynch towns even more difficult to do.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Too dumb to scum is not a thing.

Do you think yuki as scum would put up a better defense knowing there is a chance they will die now?

Also have you noticed anybody sticking up for them? I find it hard to believe none of the 3 mafia would be steering it away from yuki if he is mafia.

[Never Unlucky]

Nope, I did not.

Good.

I was in a 3 hour drive during this time, so I was unaware of the context, fair point. I will say you should know for certainty that my point is invalid by you knowing you are town? It was a hypothetical that only works if you are the scum in group 3 :P

Yes, I knew for a fact that it was false, but refuting your line of thought with "Wrong, I am town." just isn't going to convince anyone but myself.

Do not have a set conclusion, but I am leaning towards Kovath as town, RLVG mafia. It is possible both are town which is why I want to hear more of RLVG's thoughts, and not just on myself where I will be biased because I KNOW that I am not lying. I am going to negatively view RLVG for going against my claim as false because I know it cant be false. I realize he does not have that information, but it will not stop my bias if the whole read is based on his interaction with me. If RLVG is mafia, I am always town, I do not see him bussing me when I will know he is my teammate tomorrow.

If RLVG is town, are you scum? Or do you still keep the window open for a PotentialTown vs town? I personally appreciated that RLVG went against your claim as he was the only one to doubt it and call you out for it (Kovath doubted it if I'm not mistaken, but he never confronted you on this angle). Scum don't tend to go against the wave this early on.

In retrospect it's weird that everyone 'accepted' your claim like it was cash.

To be fair that is all WIFOM, but you can ask Kovath that if I openly say something like that it is always true no matter what. If I end up rolling mafia this game or in future games maybe I will change the way I type posts up, but I have been town in all but one game, and I feel with my high post count, posting raw thoughts allows people to correctly identify that I am town. I want to post a lot, and I want to give my chance as many opportunities to slip as possible so that people realize that I actually am unaware of my alignment this game, and hopefully will be aware I am town tomorrow(big money big money no mafioso, stop!)

Spoiler : Not game-related :

LOL, you keep on saying 'ask Kovath to corroborate this, that'. Has anyone ever asked him any of the 'this' and the 'thats'?

Mmk.

Not his style, he has honor.

Yeah, no. That's what he did in Politico and in IC in which he made ISOs on players that were vastly town-read (Calix in IC, Unknown in POL) to give a sense of 'hey, I posted'.

Also, he killed the POLITICO game by NKing Calix. That's not honor.

I personally like them, others don't. I think that is a fair point, but if you read up on what she said, and then I think what she said in a follow up post, she was engaging with the scenario. She even revamped the scenario to make her point stronger. I think a scum gives some form of troll answer.

I think trolling is more indicative of town. Whatever.

[secondpassing]

Do you think yuki as scum would put up a better defense knowing there is a chance they will die now?

Also have you noticed anybody sticking up for them? I find it hard to believe none of the 3 mafia would be steering it away from yuki if he is mafia.

This is easy to reply to.
I am displeased with both Klingoncelt and well.. not so much Titus for not reading into Yukitaka-san no posto.
Will attempt to go back and see what they actually characterized his posts as.

Also- nearly caught up.