S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

[PQRnHack]

Anyone, really. Only you would look better IMO.

Not a good answer AT ALL! Use your head.

[Loldebite]

Not a good answer AT ALL! Use your head.

Oh, interesting, i thought that was what you wanted to hear. Nice.

[NotPaopan]

Roleplay PQR much ?
What do you think of people now, what has changed in your reads list ?

I am not going to dignify that with a response

[NotPaopan]

I'll make my field report later. Data is still incomplete

[PQRnHack]

-vote Boba Fett

Yeah come at me with the attacks for not joining existing trains.

[hollowkatt]

hai everybody

-vote NotPaopan

I have read nothing since I was last here and don't intend to. I did more thinking about paopans reads list and, well, they're wolfy as fuck so lets kill them

[Seanzie]

Sure.

I will address this post in a bit. I'm going away now.

I think you make good points about Paopan, and I think I'd like to see one of your two's flips today, maybe both.

You talked about how things you don't understand point to scum... I don't disagree, at least for the most part.

Your main complaint about the plan was that you thought the wolves were active but didn't really voice any wolf reads with this claim (which is a weird take - you said yourself activity is NAI, and rand suggests we'd expect wolves of varrying activity levels, but actually I think activity is slightly AI, and you usually expect wolves to be slightly more reserved than their town counterparts, so wolves should skew less active, but not by a lot, so thinking they are some how extra active but without having active wolf suspects is weird). I don't understand this, and think it is quite scummy that somehow you landed on me, one of the more active people, but didn't push me earlier or say anything about my earlier when you were talking about active wolves... only when I started pushing you. Are your earlier comments tied to your more recent reads, or no?

You also said that town can see other people's perspectives. I've explained in detail why I believe the plan is a good idea, and why I believe encouraging town to deviate from it is a recipe for disaster. You seem to think I am not considering your perspective or others when I push this. I am though, but I believe that people who are pushing for not shooting or doing something else are either just doing something mech-suboptimal or intentionally screwing with the plan. I believe some people believe what they're saying is best, but I don't believe everyone. In particular, I don't really believe you. You give off vibes of being someone proud of your townplay, but your attitude has been at best defeatist (your fascination with the percieved strength of 24/7 scum chat, saying how strong that is, and how wolves can just block-vote (I mean you didn't use the word "block-vote" but whatever, I digress), and at worst is indicative of a wolf who thinks they have an easy win (you never really did consider the down-sides of block-voting as a townie would IMO, not sure where your head is at), and the "defeatest" thing doesn't line up with the vibe I have on you suggesting pride in your town game. So, I can see things from your perspective... just not town!you's perspective.

I also don't believe you suspect me. I think you doubled down on me after I suspected you, but I don't feel like you believe it.

[Seanzie]

hai everybody

-vote NotPaopan

I have read nothing since I was last here and don't intend to. I did more thinking about paopans reads list and, well, they're wolfy as fuck so lets kill them

This is almost TWTBAW.

[Gikkle]

-vote NotPaopan

I prefer this over the PQR wagon.

[PQRnHack]

I think you make good points about Paopan, and I think I'd like to see one of your two's flips today, maybe both.

You talked about how things you don't understand point to scum... I don't disagree, at least for the most part.

Your main complaint about the plan was that you thought the wolves were active but didn't really voice any wolf reads with this claim (which is a weird take - you said yourself activity is NAI, and rand suggests we'd expect wolves of varrying activity levels, but actually I think activity is slightly AI, and you usually expect wolves to be slightly more reserved than their town counterparts, so wolves should skew less active, but not by a lot, so thinking they are some how extra active but without having active wolf suspects is weird). I don't understand this, and think it is quite scummy that somehow you landed on me, one of the more active people, but didn't push me earlier or say anything about my earlier when you were talking about active wolves... only when I started pushing you. Are your earlier comments tied to your more recent reads, or no?

You also said that town can see other people's perspectives. I've explained in detail why I believe the plan is a good idea, and why I believe encouraging town to deviate from it is a recipe for disaster. You seem to think I am not considering your perspective or others when I push this. I am though, but I believe that people who are pushing for not shooting or doing something else are either just doing something mech-suboptimal or intentionally screwing with the plan. I believe some people believe what they're saying is best, but I don't believe everyone. In particular, I don't really believe you. You give off vibes of being someone proud of your townplay, but your attitude has been at best defeatist (your fascination with the percieved strength of 24/7 scum chat, saying how strong that is, and how wolves can just block-vote (I mean you didn't use the word "block-vote" but whatever, I digress), and at worst is indicative of a wolf who thinks they have an easy win (you never really did consider the down-sides of block-voting as a townie would IMO, not sure where your head is at), and the "defeatest" thing doesn't line up with the vibe I have on you suggesting pride in your town game. So, I can see things from your perspective... just not town!you's perspective.

I also don't believe you suspect me. I think you doubled down on me after I suspected you, but I don't feel like you believe it.

Based on your past experiences, what are the odds that town will follow through with our optimal strategy?

[PQRnHack]

-vote NotPaopan

I prefer this over the PQR wagon.

Eh, I will prefer any other wagon over PQR. Inb4 another tiebreaker.

[Seanzie]

Based on your past experiences, what are the odds that town will follow through with our optimal strategy?

At this point? I'll be surprised if we can get one target. We should still try though.

Btw, I will likely move my vote off you before artificial deadline 1.

[PQRnHack]

@Seanzie do you have a good reason to have your vote on me?

[Seanzie]

-vote stealthbomber16

[PQRnHack]

At this point? I'll be surprised if we can get one target. We should still try though.

Btw, I will likely move my vote off you before artificial deadline 1.

Okay. You know I will be revealing myself today as town mayo right?

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie do you have a good reason to have your vote on me?

Yeah, I wanted to call your bluff earlier because I thought it was -EV.

[Seanzie]

Okay. You know I will be revealing myself today as town mayo right?

I don't believe you.

[PQRnHack]

I don't believe you.

Then you shall pay

[Seanzie]

Then you shall pay

I thought I was in your towncore.

[PQRnHack]

Yeah, I wanted to call your bluff earlier because I thought it was -EV.

You ruined my attempt to catch a scum, unless you are scum. How do you feel about that???

[Stealthbomber16]

-vote NotPaopan

I’ll return to the read I’m more confident on.

@Seanzie

Don’t let me finish this day without answering your post. I am definitely going to forget. Just busy right now.

PEdit: yeah those are pretty solid thoughts. I can understand those, barring the bit about activity. I strongly disagree with the thought that wolves tend to skew less active than town. When there are a billion things that can effect activity outside of the game, judging alignment based on activity is awful. I’ve never once seen it work.

[PQRnHack]

I thought I was in your towncore.

Yes, that's why you should pay.

[NotPaopan]

hai everybody

-vote NotPaopan

I have read nothing since I was last here and don't intend to. I did more thinking about paopans reads list and, well, they're wolfy as fuck so lets kill them

Huh??? What a sheep. Pretty sussy there

[PQRnHack]

Good things come to those who.. don't wait.

[NotPaopan]

-vote NotPaopan

I’ll return to the read I’m more confident on.

@Seanzie

Don’t let me finish this day without answering your post. I am definitely going to forget. Just busy right now.

PEdit: yeah those are pretty solid thoughts. I can understand those, barring the bit about activity. I strongly disagree with the thought that wolves tend to skew less active than town. When there are a billion things that can effect activity outside of the game, judging alignment based on activity is awful. I’ve never once seen it work.

What's with the double vote then leaving the game midway?

[Seanzie]

You ruined my attempt to catch a scum, unless you are scum. How do you feel about that???

Everyone in this is either

1.) A newbie, who knows that the newbie cards are not some super amazing cards, or

2.) A DM veteran, who knows the newbie cards are not some super amazing cards.

The things you're claiming are wayyy out of whack from what I expect from newbie cards, and from what I expect most other people to expect from newbie cards. Even some of my best cards don't have crazy effects like someone dying if they get 4 votes on D1 (the upside of such a card would have to be more extreme than my best cards by far). I don't think scum was falling for that "trap", and I think it was just wasting threadhealth pursuing it.

[Loldebite]

In my (limited) experience of FM, i think we've had at least 1 scum among the top voters in a majority of the games. So i tend to agree with SB on the activity part.

[Seanzie]

-vote NotPaopan

I’ll return to the read I’m more confident on.

@Seanzie

Don’t let me finish this day without answering your post. I am definitely going to forget. Just busy right now.

PEdit: yeah those are pretty solid thoughts. I can understand those, barring the bit about activity. I strongly disagree with the thought that wolves tend to skew less active than town. When there are a billion things that can effect activity outside of the game, judging alignment based on activity is awful. I’ve never once seen it work.

I should clarify that I don't use activity to base reads. I do think though that alignment affects it (and in a negative way), but I believe alignment is a lower-order term, so as you said things like real life and 100 other things just have MORE of an effect, so it makes it nearly impossible to read from, but I do think the effect is there.

Activity patterns are a different thing though - activity patterns are much more strongly AI than activity on it's own, but that is a story for another day.

[PQRnHack]

Everyone in this is either

1.) A newbie, who knows that the newbie cards are not some super amazing cards, or

2.) A DM veteran, who knows the newbie cards are not some super amazing cards.

The things you're claiming are wayyy out of whack from what I expect from newbie cards, and from what I expect most other people to expect from newbie cards. Even some of my best cards don't have crazy effects like someone dying if they get 4 votes on D1 (the upside of such a card would have to be more extreme than my best cards by far). I don't think scum was falling for that "trap", and I think it was just wasting threadhealth pursuing it.

I don't appreciate your view of me as some idiot nub, so you shall still pay. Things I do and say have reasoning behind them. I believe you are town. So figure it out so we can win this. I am offering you something, you need to figure out the rest.

[PQRnHack]

REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, PAY GOLD, BYE!

[Seanzie]

I don't appreciate your view of me as some idiot nub, so you shall still pay. Things I do and say have reasoning behind them. I believe you are town. So figure it out so we can win this. I am offering you something, you need to figure out the rest.

Sorry, I use the word "newbie" in that post to specifically mean a Deck Mafia Newbie. I do not think you're an idiot, and I don't think you're a FM newb.

I do think you don't have a good grasp on relative card strength though (I don't mean this to be a sleight, just my perception of your knowledge on DM), which actually now that I think about it actually points kinda strongly to you being town since anyone new to Deck Mafia that ended up in scum chat got a chance to see a lot more cards, and probably talk to someone who is more experienced.

So uh... I guess I'll be in your towncore... tentatively. I'm still a bit wary of you because sometimes you post things that look super scummy, but I know like 2 other people who post extremely similarly to how you post, and so I'mma use meta on them to not count those sorts of posts against you too much.

[PQRnHack]

Sorry, I use the word "newbie" in that post to specifically mean a Deck Mafia Newbie. I do not think you're an idiot, and I don't think you're a FM newb.

I do think you don't have a good grasp on relative card strength though (I don't mean this to be a sleight, just my perception of your knowledge on DM), which actually now that I think about it actually points kinda strongly to you being town since anyone new to Deck Mafia that ended up in scum chat got a chance to see a lot more cards, and probably talk to someone who is more experienced.

So uh... I guess I'll be in your towncore... tentatively. I'm still a bit wary of you because sometimes you post things that look super scummy, but I know like 2 other people who post extremely similarly to how you post, and so I'mma use meta on them to not count those sorts of posts against you too much.

I assure you that I am town. I saw your earlier post that you remind you of other people. So what is similar between how we post?

What did i post that looked "super scummy"?

As I once told a wise man (who may or may not be in this game lol), I once realized in an earlier mafia game that (because i was getting TvT'ed) I need to work on my town game and choose words wisely. I have not mastered this. I am town, I speak my mind. It is quite frustrating to participate in TvT engagements.

[Seanzie]

hai everybody

-vote NotPaopan

I have read nothing since I was last here and don't intend to. I did more thinking about paopans reads list and, well, they're wolfy as fuck so lets kill them

What do people think of this post? I am worried it is going to get lost in the noise, but I am wondering if anyone else finds this as peculiar as I do (post + threadstate at the time of posting).

[PQRnHack]

typo: that *I* remind you of other people, @Seanzie .

[deathworlds]

What do people think of this post? I am worried it is going to get lost in the noise, but I am wondering if anyone else finds this as peculiar as I do (post + threadstate at the time of posting).

Publicly stating you have no intention to read thread?
Definitely anti-town, don't like it.

[PQRnHack]

What do people think of this post? I am worried it is going to get lost in the noise, but I am wondering if anyone else finds this as peculiar as I do (post + threadstate at the time of posting).

hollowkat is in my towncore. Problem is Paopan is LHF, what a shocker. And some people done like when clues come in blues.

[PQRnHack]

Publicly stating you have no intention to read thread?
Definitely anti-town, don't like it.

DW please stop doing 3-way TvTs.

[Seanzie]

I assure you that I am town. I saw your earlier post that you remind you of other people. So what is similar between how we post?

What did i post that looked "super scummy"?

As I once told a wise man (who may or may not be in this game lol), I once realized in an earlier mafia game that (because i was getting TvT'ed) I need to work on my town game and choose words wisely. I have not mastered this. I am town, I speak my mind. It is quite frustrating to participate in TvT engagements.

The easiest way to describe the similarities I see between you and them is to probably just point out a game. I think you are very similar to Gavial in this game: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2124

Things like you hardpushing a towncore come off as pretty scummy to me, especially when you seem to insist that people have to have the same towncore as you. It is level 0 scummy, but still scummy.

[Seanzie]

Publicly stating you have no intention to read thread?
Definitely anti-town, don't like it.

Agreed with the anti-town part, but not what is striking me, and know lots of towns who do this unfortunately (well... I've had to do it at times too, so I can't judge too harshly, but whatever, off track...)

Instead: Paopan wasn't really a big thing when HK left the thread. Paopan's readslist comes under pretty intense scrutiny relatively recently, HK hasn't read up but votes Paopan over the readslist?

[PQRnHack]

The easiest way to describe the similarities I see between you and them is to probably just point out a game. I think you are very similar to Gavial in this game: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2124

Things like you hardpushing a towncore come off as pretty scummy to me, especially when you seem to insist that people have to have the same towncore as you. It is level 0 scummy, but still scummy.

189 pages. thanks, i dont have the energy for that. your argument is fair, but it frustrates me that we will fight while scum chew on popcorn. So much for Frinckles teaching me to focus on building a towncore (WHO THEN FIRE BACK AND VOTE ME!). I should just lurk next time. jeez. Imagine improving my game and increasing my participation and getting ownt as a result of my increased efforts. FEELS BAD!

[hollowkatt]

You ruined my attempt to catch a scum, unless you are scum. How do you feel about that???

what? like explain more the thought process that gets you here

[Seanzie]

189 pages. thanks, i dont have the energy for that. your argument is fair, but it frustrates me that we will fight while scum chew on popcorn. So much for Frinckles teaching me to focus on building a towncore (WHO THEN FIRE BACK AND VOTE ME!). I should just lurk next time. jeez. Imagine improving my game and increasing my participation and getting ownt as a result of my increased efforts. FEELS BAD!

I'm not fighting you. I just agreed to be part of your towncore (again, tentatively - I don't do towncores, I am much better at scumhunting than townhunting, and only use townhunting as a way to reduce the number of people I need to consider for an elim on a given day).

[PQRnHack]

what? like explain more the thought process that gets you here

I do not negotiate with terrorists. But you are my towncore, f'ing great to have more TvT. I wanted to see if a scumbag would try to hammer me. How difficult is that to understand? Seanzie was the 4th voter, but he is also my town dude. So unless I am misjudged, he ruined my ploy.

[PQRnHack]

I'm not fighting you. I just agreed to be part of your towncore (again, tentatively - I don't do towncores, I am much better at scumhunting than townhunting, and only use townhunting as a way to reduce the number of people I need to consider for an elim on a given day).

I will have ways to show a little something with my amazing cards. I am just not sure that it will be alignment-indicative.

[hollowkatt]

-vote NotPaopan

I’ll return to the read I’m more confident on.

@Seanzie

Don’t let me finish this day without answering your post. I am definitely going to forget. Just busy right now.

PEdit: yeah those are pretty solid thoughts. I can understand those, barring the bit about activity. I strongly disagree with the thought that wolves tend to skew less active than town. When there are a billion things that can effect activity outside of the game, judging alignment based on activity is awful. I’ve never once seen it work.

I've seen wolves do everything from literally make minimums to make 1000 posts over the course of a game lasting 6 game days. There's never been a pattern of activity that I've been able to determine for wolves, they post like town posts. Some post a lot, some don't, some are in the middle.

If you have players with a pattern of low posting or pattern of high posting when they rand wolf then sure, look for that player fitting the pattern, but there's no way you can apply a pattern of activity to all wolves

[hollowkatt]

Huh??? What a sheep. Pretty sussy there

have you done anything townie?

[PQRnHack]

For the record: I am fine shooting paopan, but we really need to formulate plans for secondary shots.

[hollowkatt]

What do people think of this post? I am worried it is going to get lost in the noise, but I am wondering if anyone else finds this as peculiar as I do (post + threadstate at the time of posting).

There's a threadstate? Maybe I should back-read. or nah

[Stealthbomber16]

I should clarify that I don't use activity to base reads. I do think though that alignment affects it (and in a negative way), but I believe alignment is a lower-order term, so as you said things like real life and 100 other things just have MORE of an effect, so it makes it nearly impossible to read from, but I do think the effect is there.

Activity patterns are a different thing though - activity patterns are much more strongly AI than activity on it's own, but that is a story for another day.

It’s extremely difficult to determine purposeful lurking from actual activity difficulties. I have never seen it work.

[hollowkatt]

The easiest way to describe the similarities I see between you and them is to probably just point out a game. I think you are very similar to Gavial in this game: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2124

Things like you hardpushing a towncore come off as pretty scummy to me, especially when you seem to insist that people have to have the same towncore as you. It is level 0 scummy, but still scummy.

I had successfully blocked Gavial from my mind. Now I'm grumpy again