New system for more balance

[Ouguiya]

Hello everyone!

Since this is my first post (and since, if there is a "new members introduction"-subforum, I have failed to find it), I wanted to try to come out swinging with a new idea, which hopefully is as good as it sounds in my head .

I would appreciate any comment, whether positive or negative. Please do correct me if I am wrong somewhere in your opinion.

Anyway, I am sure you are aware of the following problem: Certain settings tip the balance too strongly in either direction. If it is off, the role might be incredibly weak, if it is on it is almost unbelievably strong.

Witch - When the "Target knows they have been manipulated" setting is on, the Witch can at best hope to cause some confusion and buy the Mafia a little bit of time. Usually, it will end with the Mafia killing her by accident. (At least, this is what I have experienced most times when there was a witch who couldn't keep her existence a secret.)
If, on the other hand, the option is turned off, the Witch will, with a few intelligent blows, wreak total havoc on the town. And since nobody can determine her role (unless the investigator determines the exact role), nobody will be able to say with any good degree of certainty if there even is a witch at all. Some consider this a bit overpowered, given how strong the witch then becomes.

Arsonist - Here, the same problem applies: If the "Target knows they have been doused" option is activated, then the Arsonist is very managable. Usually, after the first night, someone will immediately cry that they have been doused, and the town will be vigorously hunting for the arsonist, since he is potentially more dangerous than the mafia. The mafia, likewise will try to hunt for him, for fear that he might burn all of them in one stroke.
Again, if the option is deactivated however, the Arsonist becomes very strong. If the game settings "hide" that there is one, (say by including random killing roles), few players ever read the game settings, and thus, nobody is even aware that there is one! I once had a game where I was arsonist. I was put to trial once, and claimed bus driver. The investigator confirmed that I had gas, and since no arsonist was mentioned in the game settings, the people took me for real. The sheriff had already been killed by the mafia (as he so often is on the first night), and thus, I was able to freely douse everyone.
In the end, the town killed the GF, and in one night I burned 4 people to death, earning me the victory outright, with half a dozen players flaming and fuming in the chat afterwards.


I could go on here, since I am sure there are other possibilities than Arsonist and Witch, but I think I have made my point. To circumvent this, I would humbly suggest a new system:

The options are no longer "Target knows they have been doused", or "Target knows they have been controlled", but rather: "Target knows they have been doused/controlled in xx% of the cases".

The idea behind this would be that in some cases, the arsonist/witch sometimes messes up the dousing / controlling, leading to a person becoming aware of it. This in turn is dependent on a probability. A system like this should be fairly easy to implement at this stage, and would allow many options for the host to modify. i.e.: "Target knows they have been doused:" 20%/50%/80%/100%, or something along those lines.
This, in my opinion, would lead to a more balanced setup, where the arsonist MAY be detected, but might also (if luck is on his side), get away with dousing almost everybody without anyone noticing.

Let me know what you think on this.

Cheers!

[Omeleet]

I am going to refute this by simply saying, I rarely see witches or arsonists win. And when they do, it is generally by blind luck/player ignorance (like you mentioned with the bus driver claim scenario). The Arson's only strength is remaining incognito, the SK is simply superior in every way because he has a 1:1 night kill ratio and he eliminates potential detectors. A simple look at the role list and its rules would tell you the probability of a role like that, and when it exists, one must be vigilant for it. The same goes for the witch, the witch more often than not dies to its supposed allies EVEN when it doesn't alert you to being manipulated.

I like the concept, but I feel it is too convoluted for your average player and adds unnecessary bulk to the game's script. I can see it now, players getting constantly confused "well it said I was controlled last night, but not this night but the investigation results I got don't match what his role was".

[JackWolfsong]

Omeleet - true. Balanced Arsonist is no douse info + vulnerable at night + win ties with SK. Balanced Witch is just no info of being controlled.

[Ouguiya]

Thank you for your input, Omeleet. I agree to a certain extent, IF the rules really tell you that there must be an arsonist. My concern is with winning (as town or maf) if the setup simply has three random roles, with no knowledge what they might be. One claims to be survivor, now how can you be sure? An investigator could check him, but this will waste one night of checking. So how can you be vigilant for an arsonist if the mafia immediately has the luck of killing one sheriff early on? The chances of a second are not too high, and an investigator has more trouble finding him.
I also have to disagree on the arsonist rarely winning. I saw an arsonist win 3 times, and that was in the limited number of times there even was an arsonist (most game setups put one SK in for fixed). SKs win far less in my person experience, since their kills are always shown, and they cannot hide under the radar as well as Arsonist.

Additionally, I do not think that adding this would add "much bulk" to the code. It's actually just one line of coding, since the coding MUST already contain a check for the setting "Player knows - yes or no?". Then, instead of the check, you add a random number generator, between 1-100. If the number is higher than your cutoff-value (say, 80 for 80%), then the player knows, otherwise, it doesn't.

I would simply try to make the case that both options (NEVER knows when doused, or ALWAYS knows when doused), are both rather extreme, and both lead to scenarios where quite a lot of people are annoyed by the unfairness of it.

Cheers!

[McKinley]

An RNG system will, more than likely, never be implemented into the game. I've seen all the admins and DR himself claim this game will not dip into any scheme or system of RNG whatsoever, for once RNG is applied into the game for how the roles behave and act during the night and day system, it no longer applies to the overall desire for skill and deception, becoming replaced by a number-based system. I know I've seen DR himself shoot down any type and degree of RNG right off the back.

[Ouguiya]

Hello McKinley.

Well, thanks for the rather clearcut news.

I don't quite understand it anyway, since what is the "random system" if not a numbers-system? I had one game where the town won because the random roles were assigned to 3 jailors and 3 sheriffs, plus 2 doctors, a coroner and a mayor. The mafia, meanwhile, had a GF, a mafioso and a janitor. This wasn't really based on neither skill nor deceptions, since the jailors and sheriffs were just able to cooperate and eliminate all the mafias in one go. The mayor wasn't even necessary.

Still, I guess I can see the reasoning behind such a decision. Thanks for the explanation. With this I think the post can be safely closed, or left to be forgotten. xD

Cheers.

[McKinley]

I had tried to word what I had meant the best I could, though it seems it didn't come out clear in the end. I stated my post's topic to pertain to the day/night cycle, where upon the randomization of the roles that spawned are done and said for. I had meant the statement to pertain completely to the way the roles acted after they've been spawned and given to the players, relying on the one who wields the role to inact their abilities to the individual's own ability to decieve, apply their resources presented with them to solve the problems they face and overcome any obstacle they encounter while tryin' to reach their role's goals, and of course: allow the players to be the final deciding factor in the over-all outcome of the game its self. Once RNG is placed in how the roles themselves work, it takes out several key factors and adds in a factor of random possibilites, which the player has no control of what-so-ever, and can often lead to a "crutch" effect as well in some situations. Which is why DR will never dip into an RNG system that effects how the roles act with their abilities.

I hope that clears up your statement in the first sentence in your second paragraph.