S-FM 361: Rectangle VS. Rhombus (Small-Town Mafia) (13P)

[Helz]

There are three possible scenarios:

Phraze is mafia, simple through and through

The Lawyer is mafia for lying about roleblocking Helz when they actually roleblocked Aero and jmw the doctor is lying about protecting MM and decided to bus his partner this is before Aero revealed they also saved MM.

The Lawyer is mafia for lying about roleblocking Helz when they actually roleblocked jmw. Aero decided to lie about claiming to protect MM to save The Lawyer, but for some reason push The Lawyer anyway.

How did you reach the conclusion on the first one. Your acting like a town BD would not have reason to swap a town read. Like somehow the fact it now seems more likely that MM was swapped and hit equates to Phraze being evil. How did you reach this conclusion?

[Helz]

Im also unsure on how The Lawyer RB me has anything to do with the situation at all. Im really confused here about how your presenting those options.

[Gikkle]

Dude. What are you guys even on about. I hear the words you are saying but am totally not seeing any world where they connect. I would also ask you to explain your thinking here Gikkle.

Its starting to sound like I am hard defending phraze when I only took the stance their not realizing roles were public could have been a town slip but the pushes on them I very highly question.

if two separate people claimed to have protected MM, the escort alone couldn't have stopped both of them. Which means either one of the two protectives are lying alongside the escort, or the bus driver by themselves whisked away both the protectives. Or I guess it could be both but that's not really too relevant for today's vote. Unless I'm missing something lol.

[Helz]

if two separate people claimed to have protected MM, the escort alone couldn't have stopped both of them. Which means either one of the two protectives are lying alongside the escort, or the bus driver by themselves whisked away both the protectives. Or I guess it could be both but that's not really too relevant for today's vote. Unless I'm missing something lol.

My view is simply that a BD would have reason to swap MM. MM's kill feels like an odd target for scum, and a town BD would absolutely have reason to bus MM. None of those things equate to Phraze being evil BD. Just means they swapped MM.

Could they be evil? 1000% yes. An evil BD swapping away targets to kill them is a HUGE potential. But saying "Its either this or that" feels totally absurd to me to the point I am looking at it questioning if its a bad faith argument.

[powerofdeath]

if two separate people claimed to have protected MM, the escort alone couldn't have stopped both of them. Which means either one of the two protectives are lying alongside the escort, or the bus driver by themselves whisked away both the protectives. Or I guess it could be both but that's not really too relevant for today's vote. Unless I'm missing something lol.

i think helz's point is that all protective AND the bus driver is town for being on MM, and escort should die just because hes upset about being roleblocked

[Helz]

i think helz's point is that all protective AND the bus driver is town for being on MM, and escort should die just because hes upset about being roleblocked

No. Right now my view is hard questioning if you guys are trying to frame a false dichotomy in the situation acting like things that are not mechanically connected are. Maybe I am getting paranoid but the jump to a conclusion that because the BG claimed the same action the doc took equates to an immediate thunderdome is absurd to me.

I would like to understand how you got to that conclusion and I am really starting to shift into the scary world view that we have a Mafia Mayor which makes me unhappy.

[Helz]

I can not say this more simply- You guys were talking like you were making mechanical arguments but they do not even remotely connect imo. I would like to unpack the conclusions you drew.

[jmw]

Why would this suggest that either the escort or the bus driver is evil?

Can you elaborate on this a bit more?

Yeah so because I tried to heal MM the only way he should be dead here is if he was executed by jailor (I think, idk if for sure that's how it works), if I was roleblocked, or MM was bus driven with someone else that was mafia target.

If I got roleblocked that suggests mafia escort imo, should not be blocking a doc n1. And if bus driven it is very sus that MM was swapped with someone that led to MM dying, can be a mafia bus drive to secure a kill on whoever they want. I find it more likely that a mafia BD swaps MM to secure a kill than town BD swaps MM with someone and gets unlucky, but we need actions claimed to dive deeper into that.

If both of you are town then Phraze got really unlucky and we might actually just lose, especially if we don't have any sheriff information (not to call out Taunt given how long game has been in signups for, but would love to have a n1 check)

[powerofdeath]

I can not say this more simply- You guys were talking like you were making mechanical arguments but they do not even remotely connect imo. I would like to unpack the conclusions you drew.

I just find it way more likelier that mafia tried to redirect their kill into MM and then pile up on the lawyer and blame it all on him. I dont even see the lawyer as mafia like at all

[powerofdeath]

Yeah so because I tried to heal MM the only way he should be dead here is if he was executed by jailor (I think, idk if for sure that's how it works), if I was roleblocked, or MM was bus driven with someone else that was mafia target.

If I got roleblocked that suggests mafia escort imo, should not be blocking a doc n1. And if bus driven it is very sus that MM was swapped with someone that led to MM dying, can be a mafia bus drive to secure a kill on whoever they want. I find it more likely that a mafia BD swaps MM to secure a kill than town BD swaps MM with someone and gets unlucky, but we need actions claimed to dive deeper into that.

If both of you are town then Phraze got really unlucky and we might actually just lose, especially if we don't have any sheriff information (not to call out Taunt given how long game has been in signups for, but would love to have a n1 check)

I WAS JAILED, he cant die by jailor

[Helz]

I just find it way more likelier that mafia tried to redirect their kill into MM and then pile up on the lawyer and blame it all on him. I dont even see the lawyer as mafia like at all

I agree with the redirect. You never did answer anything I asked about my reasoning on how The Lawyers line of thought does not add up or why they do not clarify to the point it seems they just do not even want to talk about what their reasoning was.

[Helz]

I WAS JAILED, he cant die by jailor

I agree. Duno what that has to do with anything at all

[jmw]

I protected MM

-vote Phraze

@Phraze I think it's time you claimed your action.

Also @Helz since you seem to have a knack for this stuff, are there any scenarios where we lose chopping a villager today?

[Gikkle]

okay I see what helz is arguing

I mean the way I see it for town bus driver swapping MM to exist it'd mean they had to have swapped MM into the line of fire of the actual mafia target by pure coincidence which didn't seem hyper realistic to me, but I guess it's not impossible that's what happened? Ideally Phraze would come in at some point and give us some insight on what they did lol.

[Helz]

okay so it's either one of (Jmw/aeoryi) + the lawyer, or it's just phraze, right

right

This is the claim I am addressing.

How, in any world do you reach the conclusion that is the case? That one of them + the lawyer must all be lying 'or' its just Phraze

If you had said "Its more likely Phraze is evil given their participation and 2 protectives could not be lying" sure. I could even pile on that Phraze has a meta (from what I have been told) of freezing as mafia and we can run down that road.

But my lizard brain feels like a bunch of people keep excusing The Lawyers obviously inconsistent thinking and just hard pushing Phraze who could also just be LHF having swapped a town read PR and I see the pushes happening with ugly logic acting like there is a mechanical thunderdome that simply does not exist to the point I question if the arguments are being made in bad faith.

[Aeoryi]

i think helz's point is that all protective AND the bus driver is town for being on MM, and escort should die just because hes upset about being roleblocked

it's either bus driver or both Roleblocker and doctor

[Helz]

-vote Phraze

@Phraze I think it's time you claimed your action.

Also @Helz since you seem to have a knack for this stuff, are there any scenarios where we lose chopping a villager today?

Basically bad lynch on villager, bad NK tonight by vig, mafia gets a kill off and Mafia Mayor exists.
We go from 4v8 to 4v5 with +1 mafia votes for 5v5 tomorrow and loose.

But yes. 100% that world exists (which is again fucked imo. Town could misslynch one time and loose )

[Helz]

I get I am kinda beating a dead horse at this point but there is a reason I pushed so hard that the game is broken with a Mafia Mayor

[powerofdeath]

im not mafia but it is a potential loss especially if we have several nonposters that are all town

[Helz]

Servers fucking up AGAIN btw... >.>

im not mafia but it is a potential loss especially if we have several nonposters that are all town

I will be really straight forward with you. I kinda feel like I am just obligated to assume your town. If your not then like, there kinda is not that much of a point in trying. I also kinda question if you are town with the way you ignored reads on The Lawyer and only commented on mech then pushed Mech on Phraze in a way that made no sense. For my peace of mind could you explain your view? To be fair if your scum the chances I would ever have had a shot at winning this game are next to nothing.

[jmw]

I WAS JAILED, he cant die by jailor

Yes I know that now, I was explaining my thought process in the post that was quoted, where I did not know who was jailed.

[jmw]

Basically bad lynch on villager, bad NK tonight by vig, mafia gets a kill off and Mafia Mayor exists.
We go from 4v8 to 4v5 with +1 mafia votes for 5v5 tomorrow and loose.

But yes. 100% that world exists (which is again fucked imo. Town could misslynch one time and loose )

So only in vig misfire (or mafia vig) AND mafia mayor world, ok, if we lose to that tbh im not really that bothered because what can you do

I think we should proceed with some amount of caution regardless

[Helz]

So only in vig misfire (or mafia vig) AND mafia mayor world, ok, if we lose to that tbh im not really that bothered because what can you do

I think we should proceed with some amount of caution regardless

For sure. And I very much have the same view of if the mayor is scum I just kinda won't even consider loosing a loss given balance. But the simple answer to your question is with zero town misslynches and zero TvT kills (and seemingly all killers townsided) we can still loose the game N2. Part of why I pushed the hero shot post earlier outlining situations where towns just gotta yolo to even have a chance.

Personally though I am enjoying the game. Its nice to have a challenge and this certainly is that.

[Phraze]

I am here. Hi.

[Phraze]

I get I am kinda beating a dead horse at this point but there is a reason I pushed so hard that the game is broken with a Mafia Mayor

Not familiar with mech arguments.

[Phraze]

im not mafia but it is a potential loss especially if we have several nonposters that are all town

Personally, posting a lot is not necessary to gamesolve. I appreciate the concern expressed here and consider it a towny pulse though.

I now have one TL.

[Phraze]

So only in vig misfire (or mafia vig) AND mafia mayor world, ok, if we lose to that tbh im not really that bothered because what can you do

I think we should proceed with some amount of caution regardless

FWIW I targeted you and Marshmellow.

[Phraze]

Servers fucking up AGAIN btw... >.>


I will be really straight forward with you. I kinda feel like I am just obligated to assume your town. If your not then like, there kinda is not that much of a point in trying. I also kinda question if you are town with the way you ignored reads on The Lawyer and only commented on mech then pushed Mech on Phraze in a way that made no sense. For my peace of mind could you explain your view? To be fair if your scum the chances I would ever have had a shot at winning this game are next to nothing.

Oh, mindmeld on Power. And wait.. What mech?

[Phraze]

You defended Phraze even though they are scummy af and didn't really do anything this game

Which is one of the reasons why I think you have to be scum

My mistake with the night action is the only case that you have against me, and now youre holding onto it so tight since you dont really have anything else except your "assumptions" that the escort is evil because of their role.

If you think I am sus for not being active, this is me in every game.

[The Lawyer]

The biggest thing I noted on them was the lack of recognizing roles are known. I fully expect Mafia players to have had conversations on that. For them to understand that, WIFOM the assumptions town would make and intentionally fake ignorance would be a pretty calculating play that does not match the effort they have put into D1 so I find it unlikely.

This view does have the bad bit of me assuming both that Mafia are active / discussing mechanics and that Phraze would be actively participating in that chat but its largely why moved away from voting them.

You say that faking ignorance would be a calculating play that doesn't match the effort they have put into D1.

How would you know whether Phraze is faking ignorance or not? Faking ignorance is not that hard to do when you play scum. So this is definitely not something that he should be cleared for.

Also you said that Phraze would be actively participating in chat. This, again, is something that you can't really assume. You make such invalid arguments and people just believe you and let it be without questioning. I am not happy with this. I'm a bit disappointed with town because they all just blindly believe your arguments, probably because it looks like you're helping town with your talk on mechanics, while you're actually just confusing them with it.

[The Lawyer]

If you think I am sus for not being active, this is me in every game.

I believe you, but that's still a not that great excuse.

I could say the same thing about myself. I'm always scummy af and probably look even scummier as town than as scum.

Does this mean that people should townread me every game? No.

[The Lawyer]

Does everyone at least believe that when I flip town, Phraze should be the next lynch?

[Gikkle]

Does everyone at least believe that when I flip town, Phraze should be the next lynch?

is the team helz/phraze in your eyes?

[Gikkle]

btw since i didn't actually see it anywhere on the setup page (unless i'm blind) i got confirmation that mafia have day chat since i know that SC2 doesn't have that as a standard and i've been bamboozled by that before

just figured i should mention that


we probably should consolidate the vote unless we wanna leave it to horkos again

been a bit distracted to focus on this game much but hopefully next day phase (assuming we have another day phase and we don't get got by mafia mayor) i should be able to dedicate more thought to this

[The Lawyer]

2 things-

1- You disagree with the stance I took on Phraze without bothering to disagree on my reasoning. Thats kinda silly imo.
2- My issue with you is not because of your action, its the absolute inconsistency in your thought process and your now seemingly refusal to simply explain what you were thinking.

Really, I can not drive this point home enough. If you are simply town it should be no big deal for you to just sit down and talk about what you were thinking and why. You keep offsetting it like its because of your action I am pushing you but either your scum dancing around talking about a lie you can not justify or a particularly obstinate player who for some absolutely unfathomable reason chooses to not talk about your motives and thoughts when they are questioned.

I started to play this game and saw that you posted a whole lot of text. A lot of it was stuff on mechanics. I couldnt really make sense of a lot of things that you were saying, I thought that was because I haven't played for a long time, but then I noticed that a lot of stuff actually didn't make sense when I actually bothered to read them. So I was wondering how you succeeded with making invalid arguments and still being a town leader.

Then I noticed your post where you said that you had an "evil" plan and thought you might have slipped, so I pointed it out. I couldnt really make sense of your answer but I know how easy it is to slip when youre a wolf. So I had to at least consider the possibility that you were a wolf. I tried to imagine a world where you were a power wolf and started from there. So when I read the thread in that light, everything looked a lot less confusing.

[Gikkle]

FWIW I targeted you and Marshmellow.

ok
so that confirms that

which would mean if you're town mafia attacked jmw

why did you target those two specifically

[Helz]

You say that faking ignorance would be a calculating play that doesn't match the effort they have put into D1.

How would you know whether Phraze is faking ignorance or not? Faking ignorance is not that hard to do when you play scum. So this is definitely not something that he should be cleared for.

Also you said that Phraze would be actively participating in chat. This, again, is something that you can't really assume. You make such invalid arguments and people just believe you and let it be without questioning. I am not happy with this. I'm a bit disappointed with town because they all just blindly believe your arguments, probably because it looks like you're helping town with your talk on mechanics, while you're actually just confusing them with it.

I do not know if they were faking ignorance. I do think its unlikely they sat down, wifomed it would be a TR to be ignorant, then faked it.

You can disagree. But really, the GLARING problem that has me on your ass is that you just keep talking about everything except your reasoning. I ask you over and over to just explain your thought process and you keep going on about other shit. Why?

I feel like in Mafia its town players duty to enable others to read them. If they do so and town fails its on the failing player misreading them. Point blank on principle if you are unwilling to even talk about your mindset you should die and if you flip town you just screwed the town. If you decide to talk about your mindset and town does not believe you then thats on us if we are wrong.

I kinda think the town will just do nothing and its up to hero shots on the killing roles to save the game but yeah, nothing other than you using your words to speak about your reasoning that I have asked about over and over and over will shift my vote. Really could care less at this point about anything from you other than that.

[The Lawyer]

is the team helz/phraze in your eyes?

Yes. I don't know about the other 2 scums though. I was busy having had to sort my thoughts and defend myself now since Helz is scum to town tunneling me to death today with that mistake I did with the night action.

[Gikkle]

is lawyer a new player or have they played mafia before?

i find it hard to believe that a new scum player would be gutsy enough to get in an in depth argument like this with the loudest player in the game (unless this is some convoluted S/S theatre)

[Helz]

I started to play this game and saw that you posted a whole lot of text. A lot of it was stuff on mechanics. I couldnt really make sense of a lot of things that you were saying, I thought that was because I haven't played for a long time, but then I noticed that a lot of stuff actually didn't make sense when I actually bothered to read them. So I was wondering how you succeeded with making invalid arguments and still being a town leader.

Then I noticed your post where you said that you had an "evil" plan and thought you might have slipped, so I pointed it out. I couldnt really make sense of your answer but I know how easy it is to slip when youre a wolf. So I had to at least consider the possibility that you were a wolf. I tried to imagine a world where you were a power wolf and started from there. So when I read the thread in that light, everything looked a lot less confusing.

I appreciate you answering as to how you read me. Can you explain how you felt role blocking me but seeing the kill equated in your mind to me still being scum? I am also confused as to how you could view me and Phraze as scum and not jump to some conclusions about bussing if you think I am the one to carry out the factional kill.

I do understand that you are not a mechanical player but I feel like you scumreading a bus driver should translate to you thinking about how they used their action 'if' your going to jump to the conclusion that although I was role blocked and the logical factional kill choice I am still likely scum.

[Gikkle]

not gonna be able to get on much before EoD. Might be able to pop on and change my vote if needed (so we can actually get a majority) but that's about it.

[The Lawyer]

is lawyer a new player or have they played mafia before?

i find it hard to believe that a new scum player would be gutsy enough to get in an in depth argument like this with the loudest player in the game (unless this is some convoluted S/S theatre)

I've played before but this is my first game after a 5 yrs break or so.

[Helz]

is lawyer a new player or have they played mafia before?

i find it hard to believe that a new scum player would be gutsy enough to get in an in depth argument like this with the loudest player in the game (unless this is some convoluted S/S theatre)

A part of me is questioning if my lack of understanding of their thought process is because they are new.

Rough idea of where my reads are at-

Ewianking- No killed D1, zero reason to do that as scum
Horkos- No killed D1, said something about 'think I can get away with it' which I disliked hearing 2nd hand but ehh
Gikkle - Active with origional thoughts. My top town from non mech based on their activity
Jmw- claimed prot on MM and bussed with MM. More reasonable kill target for the mafia. Very likely town if Phraze is town given mafia kill target

Auwt - Kinda blendy. Seems to be tangentially defending The Lawyer and pushing Phraze.
Superjack- Survivalist. Afk D2 after soft RVS and anti mech stuff D1. Not much to go off but oddly taking zero heat for it
Tauntshaman- Brutally absent slot.
Phraze - The one people keep shoving to the point I feel like scum want them dead. Their bus choice is odd. Doc with a town read lookout? Why wouldent it be like, BP survivor with either of those...

PowerofDeath- Im uncomfortable. Feel like they are pushing opportunistically but also feel like if they rolled scum the game is just lost so actively avoiding even thinking about it.
Aeroyi - Disliked the slow reveal and claimed the same action as JMW. Felt like they were waiting for BD to reveal which made me feel if they are scum BD may not be. Self resolving but I am easily leaning scum
The Lawyer - Odd positions. Pulling teeth to get explanations from. Certainly playstyle clash with me but I do have trouble with a handful of their moves.

[Helz]

Oh, mindmeld on Power. And wait.. What mech?

There was a comment between Gikkle and POD that insinuated a mechanical issue that (unless I am just very confused) did not exist. Basically put that either one of Aeroyi or JMW had to be scum + The Lawyer or simply you.
I disliked the conclusion given there is zero reason all of you or none of you could be scum and called it out.

Btw, Why did you swap the Doc and the Lookout? Feels like it would make more sense to swap a high value role with a low value one like Survivor who can take a hit. Did you scum read one of those two?

[Helz]

As far as information gathering I will say Phraze flip gives the most but at a high cost if they are town. With me role blocked and unable to take the lookout role them and Aeroyi are the only things preventing Mafia from picking their eliminations without more risk than just failing.

Their night action if town would semi-confirm JMW as town mechanically. As scum it would be an interesting claim to WIFOM on. Probably shading town over protecting a friendly given their current pressure.
I do not see a world where The Lawyer and Phraze could possibly be aligned. Too much shoving from The Lawyer for it to be bussing imo. TvT or TvW there.
POD / Auwt pushing on them would also shed light to their alignment. Felt opportunistic although I am paranoid with the amount of pressure they are getting while others skirt under the radar

[powerofdeath]

just woke up, 5 hours remain and only 6 out of 12 people are voting. It takes 7 votes to lynch.

The Lawyer (3):
Helz, ewianking, Aeoryi

Phraze (4):
powerofdeath(x2), jmw, Gikkle

Non voters:
The Lawyer., Phraze, Auwt, Horkos

People who havent posted today:
Taunt shaman, SuperJack

[powerofdeath]

FWIW I targeted you and Marshmellow.

alright so if this somehow flips town, JMW is mech confirmed town

[The Lawyer]

just woke up, 5 hours remain and only 6 out of 12 people are voting. It takes 7 votes to lynch.

The Lawyer (3):
Helz, ewianking, Aeoryi

Phraze (4):
powerofdeath(x2), jmw, Gikkle

Non voters:
The Lawyer., Phraze, Auwt, Horkos

People who havent posted today:
Taunt shaman, SuperJack

You missed my vote

I voted Phraze. Post #262

[powerofdeath]

You missed my vote

I voted Phraze. Post #262

the bot didnt register it, you have to vote again. look up top to see if bot registered your vote

[oliverz144]

Stellaria has subbed in for Tauntshaman.
Do not discuss substitutions.