S-FM 361: Rectangle VS. Rhombus (Small-Town Mafia) (13P)

[jmw]

I agree that there seems to be a dissonance with what Lawyer is saying they did and the result
if they think you are scummy and RB you it’s always to stop the factional unless they don’t know your role. You covered intending to stop the factional. But I think additionally if Lawyer somehow misread or forgot snd thought you could act then why would they not say that and respond like this.

Granted I think it is fair to not TR you for the RB considering a teammate could have carried the kill, but the response seems strange to me.

[jmw]

I want to hear what @Phraze did last night if they haven’t already claimed it

-vote The Lawyer

[jmw]

(I find it a bit suspicious that the proposed target lawyer chose is not verifiable *and* they are using it to support a push)

at least one of the two in phraze and lawyer are wolves unless I horribly misread mech.

[Helz]

I want to hear what @Phraze did last night if they haven’t already claimed it

-vote The Lawyer

I did not poke them because honestly I am against hearing the Bus Driver claim until the other protective claims. Very direct potential to mechanically catch a lie. The bus driver /lookout feedback should be the last one to claim every single day.

[The Lawyer]

I do not know what you mean. You know every persons specific actions in the game. The setup also clearly explains exactly what the factional action is.

Now I could have assumed you did not read some stuff and just did not realize roles were publicly known but that was my case for defending Phraze you disagree with. There is no way you can disagree with my logic there pushing on Phraze and also be ignorant of the fact yourself. Those two positions absolutely can not both exist in your head.

So again, What were the thoughts in your head that made you feel I was a good target to role block? Why did you recognize after role blocking me that the factional kill went through and somehow still think I was scum?

Imo your thought process and conclusions do not match up in a few ways which makes me feel you are being dishonest about your action, reasoning, or conclusion.

RBing you was a pretty stupid mistake which I now realize. Not because you are not scum, but because I don't really understand what your role does. I should have probably blocked Phraze since I at least understand what a bus driver does.

You being a power wolf, somehow noticed that I messed things up with the night action, which is my only big mistake in this game, and used it to try to lynch me.

[Helz]

I agree that there seems to be a dissonance with what Lawyer is saying they did and the result
if they think you are scummy and RB you it’s always to stop the factional unless they don’t know your role. You covered intending to stop the factional. But I think additionally if Lawyer somehow misread or forgot snd thought you could act then why would they not say that and respond like this.

Granted I think it is fair to not TR you for the RB considering a teammate could have carried the kill, but the response seems strange to me.

True.

I am just arguing from their point of view. If they had it in their head they were specifically role blocking me for my high value of being the mafia pick for the factional kill seeing the kill carried out should have had the opposite view trigger in their head.

Not "I think your scum" but rather "I did this thing that slightly clears you in my mind" I do not see how they can hold that specific logic in their targeting action and also draw that conclusion. Those two things simply do not go together imo for a consistent line of thinking.

There is also something else I am keeping under my hat on the subject. Will give them more time to explain themselves before pointing it out because -reasons-

[The Lawyer]

-vote The Lawyer

Do you have any raisins for this or are you just following Helz?

[Helz]

RBing you was a pretty stupid mistake which I now realize. Not because you are not scum, but because I don't really understand what your role does. I should have probably blocked Phraze since I at least understand what a bus driver does.

You being a power wolf, somehow noticed that I messed things up with the night action, which is my only big mistake in this game, and used it to try to lynch me.

Ok, so you misunderstood my role. Thats not a big deal. Its not the night action thats the biggest issue. Its your thought process.

Can you walk me through what you were thinking between targeting me and the conclusions you drew today? I can see you disliking my defense of a Phraze town slip but why would you not draw some conclusion I am more likely town based upon your night action?

Right now if your position was genuine and you thought I was scum with Phraze I would at least expect you to make an argument about me potentially being bussed or something.

Also what do you think about that MM kill? Very suspicious that with 2 directly known protective roles in the game MM was targeted.

[The Lawyer]

Ok, so you misunderstood my role. Thats not a big deal. Its not the night action thats the biggest issue. Its your thought process.

Can you walk me through what you were thinking between targeting me and the conclusions you drew today? I can see you disliking my defense of a Phraze town slip but why would you not draw some conclusion I am more likely town based upon your night action?

Right now if your position was genuine and you thought I was scum with Phraze I would at least expect you to make an argument about me potentially being bussed or something.

Also what do you think about that MM kill? Very suspicious that with 2 directly known protective roles in the game MM was targeted.

I'd say that the protective roles could have been protecting you instead of MM, since you are a general town read.

The sentence that you wrote about Phraze potentially bussing you is actually hilarious.

[Helz]

I'd say that the protective roles could have been protecting you instead of MM, since you are a general town read.

True, why do you think the mafia would take such a risky kill though?

The sentence that you wrote about Phraze potentially bussing you is actually hilarious.

What is funny about it? If you think I am scum protecting the scum BD why is it not in the front of your mind that I could have been bussed and done the kill? From your perspective I feel like that should be the first natural point you would use to defend yourself and it seems like you have not even so much as considered it.

I really do want to hear your thought process though. Can you please walk us through what you were thinking with your targeting and what conclusions you drew walking into today?

[powerofdeath]

yikes, 8 out of 12 people posted in the last 24 hours… iirc the site rule require all players to make 5 posts per day

[powerofdeath]

my top 4 suspect list atm are phraze/gikkle/jmw/ewianking

so seeing jmw and ewianking jump on the lawyer does make me feel uneasy.

[The Lawyer]

True, why do you think the mafia would take such a risky kill though?

Mafia will always try to execute the most dangerous town player N1, that is if they know what they're doing, which I believe they do this game. Someone said that MM was a strong experienced player.

[Gikkle]

-vote phraze

[The Lawyer]

What is funny about it?

Everything

If you think I am scum protecting the scum BD why is it not in the front of your mind that I could have been bussed and done the kill? From your perspective I feel like that should be the first natural point you would use to defend yourself and it seems like you have not even so much as considered it.

I really do want to hear your thought process though. Can you please walk us through what you were thinking with your targeting and what conclusions you drew walking into today?

I didn't like how you were saying that certain roles, including mine, had more value for scum than for town. I also didn't like how a lot of town was blindly following you.

I concluded you were evil and decided to block you so that you can't use your role on anyone.

[Auwt]

You are missing a few things here. The vig claimed they did not kill and POD claimed he was jailed and not executed. Thats both killers claiming leaving only the factional kill.
Why would they not role block me with that mindset, realize the factional kill happened and not draw a conclusion of "Helz is probably town because if he was scum he woulda been the one to do the factional and my role blocking him did not prevent the factional from happening"?

While I do wish you had let them explain their reasoning themselves rather than providing a defense for them- sure. Maybe they could have thought I would be a good option for the factional. But so much that I was a priority to RB over any PR existing in the game?

Ok but what if vigi and you are scum?

Vigi killed MM
You killed whoever else but got rb'd.

How are you so certain that this kill is the factional one and not the one caused by vigi?
Do you know something I don't?

[Helz]

Everything



I didn't like how you were saying that certain roles, including mine, had more value for scum than for town. I also didn't like how a lot of town was blindly following you.

I concluded you were evil and decided to block you so that you can't use your role on anyone.

Ok. You thought I was evil and decided to block me. Did take time to consider what my role is or does? Did you ask the host if your role can block day actions?

I get the surface "You bad, I do thing to stop bad person" rhetoric but I am struggling to see a genuine thought process that connects reading me with using your action on me. You also have not spoken on what conclusions you drew and how they connect.

Like, as basically as I can say it I am trying to figure out 'how' you drew conclusions and made decisions. I am asking for you to explain your thought process.

[Helz]

Ok but what if vigi and you are scum?

Vigi killed MM
You killed whoever else but got rb'd.

How are you so certain that this kill is the factional one and not the one caused by vigi?
Do you know something I don't?

Sure. We could also tinfoil that POD and the Jailor put on a puppet show and Jailor actually executed with the factional stopped. Then there is also the question of who was swapped to even know if me being targeted by The Lawyer would have role blocked me or someone else.

I do not know these things. I am unsure but operating off the mechanical knowledge we have and looking at the situation there are logical assumptions. You keep making defenses for The Lawyer thats basically handing them excuses they will be able to say "Uhh.. Yeah, I was thinking that thing that guy over there said!"

Please let them explain themselves before feeding them excuses. This is the second time you have done this and I see it as counterproductive (although not AI given you would feed that in wolf chat if you were coaching)

Imo the question is less of 'whats possible' and 1000% 'what were they thinking' that is the issue. A natural thought process should make sense and their story does not add up.

[Helz]

The Lawyer (3):
Helz, ewianking, jmw
Phraze (2):
powerofdeath, Gikkle

For reference. At least today is shaping up with trains : )

[Horkos]

Ok but what if vigi and you are scum?

Vigi killed MM
You killed whoever else but got rb'd.

How are you so certain that this kill is the factional one and not the one caused by vigi?
Do you know something I don't?

So what do you suggest ? Who do you want to lynch ?

[ewianking]

Do you have any raisins for this or are you just following Helz?

I think your response was kinda overly defensive, and I can see the logic behind Helz's post.

[ewianking]

If jimmy's telling the truth last night / Lawyer, then its just phraze.

If not Phraze then only other redirect /kp option would be if in some miracle world mm visited auwt(doubtful) or the more likely option that Lawyer didn't target Helz.

[powerofdeath]

If jimmy's telling the truth last night / Lawyer, then its just phraze.

If not Phraze then only other redirect /kp option would be if in some miracle world mm visited auwt(doubtful) or the more likely option that Lawyer didn't target Helz.

i mean helz and lawyer easily can both be town. Mafia could send someone who isnt even involved in this conversation to do the murder (example gikkle, not saying it was him).

Helz was just someone with no night action, and Lawyer roleblocked helz. Setup said theres no feedback for anything at all so we will never confirm if someone was bus driven, roleblocked, etc. MM still died.

[powerofdeath]

Yeah Phraze survived D1 but should be lynched D2.

-vote Phraze

this vote didnt register btw, if u want to try revotin

[jmw]

I did not poke them because honestly I am against hearing the Bus Driver claim until the other protective claims. Very direct potential to mechanically catch a lie. The bus driver /lookout feedback should be the last one to claim every single day.

Makes sense, but I still want them to claim eventually. I think no actions should be hidden atp.

[Helz]

i mean helz and lawyer easily can both be town. Mafia could send someone who isnt even involved in this conversation to do the murder (example gikkle, not saying it was him).

Helz was just someone with no night action, and Lawyer roleblocked helz. Setup said theres no feedback for anything at all so we will never confirm if someone was bus driven, roleblocked, etc. MM still died.

Im curious for your opinion here. Do you think I am off base?

Yes I am poking at mechanics but at the end of the day do you feel their story makes any real sense? Its also really hard for me to to do anything but shove harder when they are not even bothering to explain their thought process.

Asking "What were you thinking" should not be a difficult question yet they appear to me to be avoiding getting into the subject. Its not about them making a good or bad choice to target me- its 100% about what they were thinking in the situation which they seem to not want to talk about.

[Helz]

Makes sense, but I still want them to claim eventually. I think no actions should be hidden atp.

I absolutely agree. It would be a critical issue if Phraze does not reveal night actions to the point I believe they should be policy lynched. I would very much like to hear Aeroyi claim first. If the clock runs down its going to look really scummy for them to wait. Does softly push they are not aligned though 'if' Aeroyi is waiting for Phraze reveal.

[powerofdeath]

Im curious for your opinion here. Do you think I am off base?

Yes I am poking at mechanics but at the end of the day do you feel their story makes any real sense? Its also really hard for me to to do anything but shove harder when they are not even bothering to explain their thought process.

Asking "What were you thinking" should not be a difficult question yet they appear to me to be avoiding getting into the subject. Its not about them making a good or bad choice to target me- its 100% about what they were thinking in the situation which they seem to not want to talk about.

If I was town escort, I would 100% be roleblocking someone that doesnt have a night action. Roleblocking a doctor/bg/sheriff/lookout is a bad look. Roleblocking a veteran is suicide. I asked the host if Jailor could be roleblocked and the answer was no. That leaves Mayor, Networker, Grave Digger, and Survivalist with no night actions. There's also vigi if you wanted to but I feel like they would never send vigi night 1 because it seems way too risky. Could also roleblock Bus Driver too. I'm starting to think they could send a doctor/bg/sheriff/lookout to do the factional kill because why would you roleblock them.

[powerofdeath]

Bus Driver

Each night, target 2 people to be swapped.
All other actions targeting one of the swapped persons will instead target the other person.
Does not affect jailor executions or escort roleblocks, which occur earlier in the OoO.
No feedback is given to either of the swapped individuals.



This means that if The Lawyer is telling the truth, then Helz was 100% roleblock regardless if Helz was swapped or not.

[powerofdeath]

Im curious for your opinion here. Do you think I am off base?

Yes I am poking at mechanics but at the end of the day do you feel their story makes any real sense? Its also really hard for me to to do anything but shove harder when they are not even bothering to explain their thought process.

Asking "What were you thinking" should not be a difficult question yet they appear to me to be avoiding getting into the subject. Its not about them making a good or bad choice to target me- its 100% about what they were thinking in the situation which they seem to not want to talk about.

Who would you roleblock if you were town escort?

[ewianking]

i mean helz and lawyer easily can both be town. Mafia could send someone who isnt even involved in this conversation to do the murder (example gikkle, not saying it was him).

Helz was just someone with no night action, and Lawyer roleblocked helz. Setup said theres no feedback for anything at all so we will never confirm if someone was bus driven, roleblocked, etc. MM still died.

but jimmy still claimed to heal MM which means MM should be alive which they arent. which means one of Lawyer/Jmw/Phraze are lying / did smth.

I want to rule out jimmy unless hes playing 4-d chess, dont see him saying he healed mm when he could've said anyone else.

Which just leaves out Lawyer/Phraze. Its really a matter of : What action did Phraze do? cuz from my POV it has to be one of them they are the only ones who could've affected it since I didn't shoot and jailor jailed u iirc

[Helz]

If I was town escort, I would 100% be roleblocking someone that doesnt have a night action. Roleblocking a doctor/bg/sheriff/lookout is a bad look. Roleblocking a veteran is suicide. I asked the host if Jailor could be roleblocked and the answer was no. That leaves Mayor, Networker, Grave Digger, and Survivalist with no night actions. There's also vigi if you wanted to but I feel like they would never send vigi night 1 because it seems way too risky. Could also roleblock Bus Driver too. I'm starting to think they could send a doctor/bg/sheriff/lookout to do the factional kill because why would you roleblock them.

Again, I am not focusing on mech. I am focusing on their reasoning. Yes- I did push their decision is weird. But it was much more in connection to the result. And again, if they had given that reasoning it would feel much more natural. But they did not and even if they did did the conclusion does not match up.

'If' They thought I was the logical factional kill 'and' they role blocked me and see right off the bat 2 claims that strongly suggest the only kill was factional why the FOS instead of assuming that clears me? Also why hold a world view of me being scum hard defending a scum BD and not jump to assumptions about the BD?

Even past that why are they so dodgy explaining their thought process and conclusions?

Is there a way I can be much more emphatically clear that I am scum reading them for the inconsistency in their thought process and lack of explanation for what that thought process was?

[The Lawyer]

Sorry for inactivity. Do not have as much time now as I do when I signed (excuse).

I tried to protect MM last night. If he wasn't executed by the jailor then either the escort or the bus driver is evil.

Why would this suggest that either the escort or the bus driver is evil?

Can you elaborate on this a bit more?

[Helz]

Who would you roleblock if you were town escort?

In this game I would have absolutely blocked Ewianking N1. Have not gone into details on this bit yet but lets dive into a KPN breakdown

4v9 1kpn = 4 day cycles tops
4v9 2kpn = 2 day cycles tops

Jailors ability relies upon no lynch and (although I 100% think it worked out in the towns favor this game) us not lynching was a failure upon the town players even if the outcome was good. The lack of kill looks good and we have more time which our player base is struggling with.

Honestly I did not say it before but the setup feels very scum sided to me. Part of something I did not mention in my belief that RNG would not be used to pick roles because flatly- I feel its quite imbalanced. May just come down to our killers doing hero shots for town to have a chance if the town does not get off their asses at some point. Woulda thought I was playing a 168 hour MafiaScum.com day cycle with the activity level >.>

Going forward with an isolated 1kpn town gets 2 lynches. We fuck both of those up we loose. Im gona get a bit nerdy here and ping our killers because they need to understand this @ewianking , @Horkos

So we have 4 scum vs 8 town right now. If we lynch and fail then mafia get a kill then tomorrow its 4v6. (5v6 and borderline unwinnable if POD mayor is scum) Killers gotta go fast and loose murdering if we get there (also consider its a 1 bad lynch zero bad kill Mylo.. BRUTAL for the town) Following day we will be running 4% chance of success on a random shot and quite honestly- I would trust the killers over a town vote considering how participation has gone unless we have something real to deal with. Also the empty sheriff slot is absolutely fucking painful to setup balance. Literally any role but him would be better >.<

Same situation, If we lynch and succeed then on D3 we are shooting 30/70 on our lynch by odds. Loose that one and with an evil mayor town still looses without hero shots from the kill squad.

Its kinda crazy. Town can go 1/1 on misslynches with no TvT kill and loose. Might paint a picture of what I am looking at. We basically need 2 solid lynches in a row or to put a lot of faith in our killers hitting with an unknown BD and escort running about. Hopefully that explains more of why I am so critically trying to push the tempo

[The Lawyer]

Im curious for your opinion here. Do you think I am off base?

Yes I am poking at mechanics but at the end of the day do you feel their story makes any real sense? Its also really hard for me to to do anything but shove harder when they are not even bothering to explain their thought process.

Asking "What were you thinking" should not be a difficult question yet they appear to me to be avoiding getting into the subject. Its not about them making a good or bad choice to target me- its 100% about what they were thinking in the situation which they seem to not want to talk about.

You defended Phraze even though they are scummy af and didn't really do anything this game

Which is one of the reasons why I think you have to be scum

My mistake with the night action is the only case that you have against me, and now youre holding onto it so tight since you dont really have anything else except your "assumptions" that the escort is evil because of their role.

[Helz]

You defended Phraze even though they are scummy af and didn't really do anything this game

Which is one of the reasons why I think you have to be scum

My mistake with the night action is the only case that you have against me, and now youre holding onto it so tight since you dont really have anything else except your "assumptions" that the escort is evil because of their role.

2 things-

1- You disagree with the stance I took on Phraze without bothering to disagree on my reasoning. Thats kinda silly imo.
2- My issue with you is not because of your action, its the absolute inconsistency in your thought process and your now seemingly refusal to simply explain what you were thinking.

Really, I can not drive this point home enough. If you are simply town it should be no big deal for you to just sit down and talk about what you were thinking and why. You keep offsetting it like its because of your action I am pushing you but either your scum dancing around talking about a lie you can not justify or a particularly obstinate player who for some absolutely unfathomable reason chooses to not talk about your motives and thoughts when they are questioned.

[Aeoryi]

I protected MM

[Aeoryi]

-vote the lawyer

[Aeoryi]

Broski thought he could Roleblock me and then pretend like it never happened

[Aeoryi]

I predicted that MM would be targeting seeing as he was a top contributing player and also seemed to have a reputation of being good at the game (spk if you will)

[Aeoryi]

From my assessment, I was roleblocked last night. I am not sure if this is confirmable by any means but I see it as the most plausible option

It also means that the mafia seriously screwed themselves over by thinking at such a basic level. It takes about five seconds to realize that you are forced to Townside with any role in this game due to action/role credibility. For that reason, I suspect that scum chat is not very active (if active at all) and I shall be factoring that into my analysis in the future.

[powerofdeath]

I protected MM

wait up because jmw also tried to protect MM

this just confirm that the busdriver is evil, not the lawyer

[powerofdeath]

the lawyer cant both roleblock jmw and aeroyi

[Aeoryi]

I say kill the lawyer if he flips red kill jmw if he flips green kill phraze

lawyer is many times scummy

[powerofdeath]

phraze 100% have to die today now we know both protective roles tried to save MM

[Gikkle]

okay so it's either one of (Jmw/aeoryi) + the lawyer, or it's just phraze, right

[powerofdeath]

okay so it's either one of (Jmw/aeoryi) + the lawyer, or it's just phraze, right

right

[Helz]

wait up because jmw also tried to protect MM

this just confirm that the busdriver is evil, not the lawyer

phraze 100% have to die today now we know both protective roles tried to save MM

How do you figure this? I would like you to explain your thinking here.

[Helz]

okay so it's either one of (Jmw/aeoryi) + the lawyer, or it's just phraze, right

right

Dude. What are you guys even on about. I hear the words you are saying but am totally not seeing any world where they connect. I would also ask you to explain your thinking here Gikkle.

Its starting to sound like I am hard defending phraze when I only took the stance their not realizing roles were public could have been a town slip but the pushes on them I very highly question.

[powerofdeath]

How do you figure this? I would like you to explain your thinking here.

There are three possible scenarios:

Phraze is mafia, simple through and through

The Lawyer is mafia for lying about roleblocking Helz when they actually roleblocked Aero and jmw the doctor is lying about protecting MM and decided to bus his partner this is before Aero revealed they also saved MM.

The Lawyer is mafia for lying about roleblocking Helz when they actually roleblocked jmw. Aero decided to lie about claiming to protect MM to save The Lawyer, but for some reason push The Lawyer anyway.