S-FM 361: Rectangle VS. Rhombus (Small-Town Mafia) (13P)

[Helz]

I have no problem with claiming my night action but will only claim if the majority of players agree that everyone should claim.

Pretty damn sure that was a yesterday conversation that was already had.
Absolutely nobody voiced reason not to claim and everyone that talked about it said it was either an absolutely obvious necessity or a good idea.

Any reason you would not claim?

[ewianking]

I don’t see the harm of claiming past actions tbh
Mafia can’t do anything about it if it’s already in the past

[The Lawyer]

Pretty damn sure that was a yesterday conversation that was already had.
Absolutely nobody voiced reason not to claim and everyone that talked about it said it was either an absolutely obvious necessity or a good idea.

Any reason you would not claim?

Since you insist

I roleblocked you N1 because I think you're evil.

I find it alarming how almost no one dares to question your alignment just because you posted a ton of walls of text D1

You are by far the most active player and a power wolf.

[powerofdeath]

I don’t see the harm of claiming past actions tbh
Mafia can’t do anything about it if it’s already in the past

yeah i mean doc/bg probably didnt successfully save so no point in them sharing today with dead lookout, though they should if helz doesnt die by tmrw as a grave robber. remaining roles are escort, bd, and sheriff. Also vigi should 100% claim if their shot fails

I honestly dont think sheriff did anything last night. BD can claim who they bussed and Escort could claim who they blocked. Realistically claiming actions with a dead lookout wont really help much tho ):

Doc/BG should 100% claim if they tried to save MM last night otherwise meh.
So i

[powerofdeath]

yeah i mean doc/bg probably didnt successfully save so no point in them sharing today with dead lookout, though they should if helz doesnt die by tmrw as a grave robber. remaining roles are escort, bd, and sheriff. Also vigi should 100% claim if their shot fails

I honestly dont think sheriff did anything last night. BD can claim who they bussed and Escort could claim who they blocked. Realistically claiming actions with a dead lookout wont really help much tho ):

Doc/BG should 100% claim if they tried to save MM last night otherwise meh.
So i

ignore “so i” idk how that got there

[powerofdeath]

Since you insist

I roleblocked you N1 because I think you're evil.

I find it alarming how almost no one dares to question your alignment just because you posted a ton of walls of text D1

You are by far the most active player and a power wolf.

yeah thats fine, helz couldnt use his role and now we know he wasnt the one that was sent to kill

[The Lawyer]

I don’t see the harm of claiming past actions tbh
Mafia can’t do anything about it if it’s already in the past

How do you feel now about Helz' case on you post #228?

[Helz]

Since you insist

I roleblocked you N1 because I think you're evil.

I find it alarming how almost no one dares to question your alignment just because you posted a ton of walls of text D1

You are by far the most active player and a power wolf.

I’m between thinking your underplaying your wifom and thinking your towny as hell for this. Absurd silly action on the guy who has zero actions

[The Lawyer]

yeah thats fine, helz couldnt use his role and now we know he wasnt the one that was sent to kill

MM voted Phraze D1. Post #166. Do you have any thoughts on that? What do you think about Phraze?

[powerofdeath]

MM voted Phraze D1. Post #166. Do you have any thoughts on that? What do you think about Phraze?

Look at my post #209

Phraze shouldve been day 1 lynch and i shouldve voted yesterday but i confused myself and thought day wouldnt end for another hour. But even if i voted we would need 3 more voters regardless

[powerofdeath]

Also idk why but i thought it was plurality vote and not majority so i didnt think we needed 7 votes

[The Lawyer]

Look at my post #209

Phraze shouldve been day 1 lynch and i shouldve voted yesterday but i confused myself and thought day wouldnt end for another hour. But even if i voted we would need 3 more voters regardless

Yeah Phraze survived D1 but should be lynched D2.

-vote Phraze

[Helz]

Since you insist

I roleblocked you N1 because I think you're evil.

I find it alarming how almost no one dares to question your alignment just because you posted a ton of walls of text D1

You are by far the most active player and a power wolf.

So I was in the middle of a while thing at the American legion while all this unfolded but on my drive home I was thinking about this. It just kept popping up in my head and did not quite fit.

You think that me seeing a townslip on Phraze for not recognizing all roles are known is unreasonable and me hard defending a scum team mate as mafia with 2 votes on them D1. The functional issue here being them knowing roles.
Then you claim to use your role to Roleblock any function in the game with every single person with absolute known actions on one of two absolutely useless targets. 1000% knowing I have no action last night I was your pick?

I really really want to unpack this. You sound like scum poorly shading to me and your action makes zero sense. Why on earth out of knowing every single role would you pick the dude that has zero actions? My bullshit meter is going off pretty hard here and it feels like you slipped after resisting even claiming your actions.

[Helz]

I will also say we have a second hard unaligned between Phraze and The Lawyer. Room for a puppet show but also draws in WIFOM questions on The Lawyers play.

Really really really want to get an explanation from them on role blocking the dude with zero night actions, seeing a kill after both kill roles claim they did not kill and knowing the only kill was the factional, then shoving me in chat.

Like literally. Shouldn't that clear me? I do mean in their thinking, If I was team scum I would have been an excellent choice to do the factional knowing there was zero reason to RB me. And then they claim they did and the factional happened but somehow their conclusion is I am scum?


Many things in their thought process not adding up. I think you have some explaining to do @The Lawyer

[Helz]

Btw, The jailor and Vig both not killing on top of the escort claiming their rb is a good mechanical look on both those slots. More to unpack there but worth pointing out.

[ewianking]

How do you feel now about Helz' case on you post #228?

Weak , their case is that Im vig+ can read iso fully in 4 seconds. Which is basically setup-spec/ can read iso easily in a game with 5 pages lol.

[Helz]

I do not throw around votes lightly. After a bit of consideration I think we should start out here-

-vote The Lawyer

They claim to have role blocked me. A player with no night action
Before they claim that they know both the Vig and Jailor did not kill. They 100% know here that the kill was the factional.
While this information should clear me they ignore that. They then FOS me for arguing Phraze had a town slip not realizing the setup had publicly known roles.

I feel they need to REALLY justify how role blocking the zero action slot given they are critical of people not recognizing roles are known and they would have had to think "Blocking this guy with no action matters more than blocking these killing, swapping etc roles"

I think they dun slipped.

[The Lawyer]

I will also say we have a second hard unaligned between Phraze and The Lawyer. Room for a puppet show but also draws in WIFOM questions on The Lawyers play.

Really really really want to get an explanation from them on role blocking the dude with zero night actions, seeing a kill after both kill roles claim they did not kill and knowing the only kill was the factional, then shoving me in chat.

Like literally. Shouldn't that clear me? I do mean in their thinking, If I was team scum I would have been an excellent choice to do the factional knowing there was zero reason to RB me. And then they claim they did and the factional happened but somehow their conclusion is I am scum?


Many things in their thought process not adding up. I think you have some explaining to do @The Lawyer

It only makes sense that you defend yourself and shade me since I accused you of being a power wolf and voted your teammate Phraze....

That shouldnt clear you. Nothing clears you in this game since you are scum.

You are evil. I can feel it.

[Helz]

It only makes sense that you defend yourself and shade me since I accused you of being a power wolf and voted your teammate Phraze....

That shouldnt clear you. Nothing clears you in this game since you are scum.

You are evil. I can feel it.

Nice. I would love to hear more about your feelings.

What made you 'feel' you should role block the role with zero night actions? What made you 'feel' that the role you know was role blocked and had no night actions should be scum given the only kill was a factional?

Please explain your line of thought. How did you reach the conclusion that I am evil when from what I am looking at your choice of action makes zero sense and your conclusion based upon the result of your action makes zero sense?

[Helz]

Posting this as an image at first but will structure it in VB format before days end so it can be kept up as days go on.

Action list.JPG

Interesting 4/13 people have reported in (with 1 afk) and zero reports about a networker chat that has zero reason to be hidden. A no action networker is a very bad look.

[Helz]

Nice. I would love to hear more about your feelings.

What made you 'feel' you should role block the role with zero night actions? What made you 'feel' that the role you know was role blocked and had no night actions should be scum given the only kill was a factional?

Please explain your line of thought. How did you reach the conclusion that I am evil when from what I am looking at your choice of action makes zero sense and your conclusion based upon the result of your action makes zero sense?

Before I call it a night I am gona say this.

I would expect an Escort critical of a situation where roles are known is mindful of roles for who they target.

I would expect an Escort to use their action on an effective target. You know, Role block... Not just "I feel your evil so I target you"

I would expect that if an Escort targeted me and had the forethought to say 'You are evil, dont have a night action, but would be the good target for a RB knowing that' to draw the the conclusion that it clears me.

I do not see how they can hold these views and draw these conclusions. Quite a few aspects feel mutually exclusive to me. Interested in hearing a response if they bother.

[Horkos]

Sounds on par with a solidly experienced SC2 jailor running a reaction test. Any thoughts on you being the target or how they went about it? Could also consider if dumping logs is an option or against the rules for people to hunt off

The jail : [ I pretty much chose my target before d1 even started,i knew it didnt want to rb any important n1 action (sheriff,doc,bg,bus)

I feel bad for mm because i would have saved him if my role could protect at night, lookout is strong in late game and that is why i thought he would be targeted.

For the vig i thought i could rb him so he doesnt make any mistake n1 but i figured he can only kill 1 town even if mafia.

I could have jailed 1 NI role since i am the only one who can kill them during night but i chose to jail the mayor because his vote is stronger and i wanted to make sure he was not mafia even more when he wanted to lynch each day to deny my action.

So i am now pretty sure he is town(if he is mafia he played that very well)
I am a bit sad because we didnt get to discuss anything else (at some point he stopped talking to me but its pribably because we don't live in the same time zone) ]

I am glad only 1 died, like i said yesterday i want to play a slow game, if you guys want , i can jail and execute the most voted like i suggested d1.

It looks like helz is going to be our lookout tonight i would have prefered if he was sheriff but somehow the sheriff is still here, how long can he stay alive without posting ?

[Helz]

The jail : [ I pretty much chose my target before d1 even started,i knew it didnt want to rb any important n1 action (sheriff,doc,bg,bus)

I feel bad for mm because i would have saved him if my role could protect at night, lookout is strong in late game and that is why i thought he would be targeted.

For the vig i thought i could rb him so he doesnt make any mistake n1 but i figured he can only kill 1 town even if mafia.

I could have jailed 1 NI role since i am the only one who can kill them during night but i chose to jail the mayor because his vote is stronger and i wanted to make sure he was not mafia even more when he wanted to lynch each day to deny my action.

So i am now pretty sure he is town(if he is mafia he played that very well)
I am a bit sad because we didnt get to discuss anything else (at some point he stopped talking to me but its pribably because we don't live in the same time zone) ]

I am glad only 1 died, like i said yesterday i want to play a slow game, if you guys want , i can jail and execute the most voted like i suggested d1.

It looks like helz is going to be our lookout tonight i would have prefered if he was sheriff but somehow the sheriff is still here, how long can he stay alive without posting ?

If you were scum you would have at least used your jail to RB something of value even if you did not choose to execute. I would dare to say most players in the game should hold you as a pretty solid town read. The world where you jailed a zero value PR to RB and also did not kill is nothing imo.

To be blunt, You are my most confirmed town at this point. Super tiny chance any scum would make these moves and would require crazy WIFOM

[Helz]

Probably shoulda waited for POD to make a case before coming out with that. Whatever... It happened >.>

[Helz]

For the other players the world I see where Horkos is scum is them taking zero consideration of roles and also having zero coordination with the mafia team and then not executing after doing a classic RT in SC2 play.

Unpack what you want from that but I am thinking solid town

[ewianking]

I do not throw around votes lightly. After a bit of consideration I think we should start out here-

-vote The Lawyer

They claim to have role blocked me. A player with no night action
Before they claim that they know both the Vig and Jailor did not kill. They 100% know here that the kill was the factional.
While this information should clear me they ignore that. They then FOS me for arguing Phraze had a town slip not realizing the setup had publicly known roles.

I feel they need to REALLY justify how role blocking the zero action slot given they are critical of people not recognizing roles are known and they would have had to think "Blocking this guy with no action matters more than blocking these killing, swapping etc roles"

I think they dun slipped.

I can actually follow the logic for this for the most part. They really could have rb me if they didn’t trust me , which is the impression I’m getting reading their post

The one exception tinfoil is that they sr you d1(which I will check tmrw it’s late) and decided to rb you because they consider you top scum

[Helz]

I can actually follow the logic for this for the most part. They really could have rb me if they didn’t trust me , which is the impression I’m getting reading their post

The one exception tinfoil is that they sr you d1(which I will check tmrw it’s late) and decided to rb you because they consider you top scum

My view is simply that 'if' they scum read me so hard 'and' they recognized roles were public (which is obvious from their position of my view on Phraze) 'then' role blocking me should have had the view that "This dude is evil with no action and would be the logical choice for the fractional kill"

They see the fractional kill happened, know it was not either jailor or vig and somehow instead of clearing me FOS me? Feels like bullshit to me.

I question if they can justify a single step in this situation much less how they came to this conclusion.

[Helz]

There is one thing I am not saying. Waiting to see how people respond to this issue and how The Lawyer justifies their view.

[Horkos]

For the other players the world I see where Horkos is scum is them taking zero consideration of roles and also having zero coordination with the mafia team and then not executing after doing a classic RT in SC2 play.

Unpack what you want from that but I am thinking solid town

What do you know of the coordination within the mafia team ?

[Helz]

What do you know of the coordination within the mafia team ?

My belief is that they are very uncoordinated.

They had hard vote power D1 but did nothing with it giving you execution power which makes no logical sense. Your actions scream town and the lack of a vig action also says they did not have KPN control.

Makes me feel like they have a ghost chat with very few brain cells kicking about in coordination. Also drives me to a few conclusion on where to look for mafia >.>

[Helz]

To be more clear. Either you have hard bamboozled me and are Mafia or they played D1/N1 very very poorly with you as scum; and I find it very unlikely that you are scum.

[Horkos]

My belief is that they are very uncoordinated.

They had hard vote power D1 but did nothing with it giving you execution power which makes no logical sense. Your actions scream town and the lack of a vig action also says they did not have KPN control.

Makes me feel like they have a ghost chat with very few brain cells kicking about in coordination. Also drives me to a few conclusion on where to look for mafia >.>

Sorry what is KPN ?

Vig not shooting n1 makes sense to me :
As mafia you only have 1 shot at town unless you want to throw away a teamate to gain credibility ,its better to wait to coordinate with the mafia
As town the more you wait the more likely you are to hit the mafia this is also why i knew i would not execute n1

[Helz]

Sorry what is KPN ?

Vig not shooting n1 makes sense to me :
As mafia you only have 1 shot at town unless you want to throw away a teamate to gain credibility ,its better to wait to coordinate with the mafia
As town the more you wait the more likely you are to hit the mafia this is also why i knew i would not execute n1

So KPN is "Kill per night"

Their "KPN" would be higher if either the Jailor or Vig was on their side. We walked into D2 with no Jailor kill or Vig kill. Either of which could have killed and justified their action as "I was town and thought dude was scum"

But nobody did. There is kinda zero reason the scum team would both float this situation and also not leverage their vote block to control a D1 lynch imo.

They either do not have a player in their group that understands the basic fundamentals of how to play their situation and may luck out or they intentionally decided to do some deep wifom play intentionally playing poorly which feels absurdly unlikely.

[Helz]

Ehh, Just to ramble (less game related so feel free to skip for non nerds)

The game boils down to 2 things. Vote power and KPN. When vote power is overwhelming the town looses. When KPN of the mafia does the same town looses.

The game at its core is about how many votes a group has and how many votes can be removed how fast. That is the basic balance function. Not many understand that balance who have not literally programmed games around it but yeah.

[Auwt]

I do not throw around votes lightly. After a bit of consideration I think we should start out here-

-vote The Lawyer

They claim to have role blocked me. A player with no night action
Before they claim that they know both the Vig and Jailor did not kill. They 100% know here that the kill was the factional.
While this information should clear me they ignore that. They then FOS me for arguing Phraze had a town slip not realizing the setup had publicly known roles.

I feel they need to REALLY justify how role blocking the zero action slot given they are critical of people not recognizing roles are known and they would have had to think "Blocking this guy with no action matters more than blocking these killing, swapping etc roles"

I think they dun slipped.

The scum factional kill would most likely be performed by a role that is not expected to move or take action.
Thus you definitely were a good candidate for a RB.

Vigi or Jailor 50% town 50% scum. Factional kill is 100% performed by scum.

I am not trying to give credits to anyone, but I can see why you got RB.

Also let it be noted that it is possible you tried to factional kill someone and a jailor or vigi scum buddy shot MM, and is now covering your back.

[Auwt]

With Sheriff being virtually out of the game, and Lookout down. We are probably losing this anyway.

Just wondering why the only Investigative role alive was not protected by Doctor or Bodyguard.

Looks like I was correct D1 with jmw.

[The Lawyer]

Nice. I would love to hear more about your feelings.

What made you 'feel' you should role block the role with zero night actions? What made you 'feel' that the role you know was role blocked and had no night actions should be scum given the only kill was a factional?

Please explain your line of thought. How did you reach the conclusion that I am evil when from what I am looking at your choice of action makes zero sense and your conclusion based upon the result of your action makes zero sense?

Why are you saying that I "knew" that you had 0 night actions?

I wouldn't assume that your role has 0 night actions.

This setup is a bit different than the usual setup with vanilla and power roles, so it isn't safe to just assume that "this role can do this or that". But you already know this. You are cleverly pushing this narrative where roles are somewhat AI when it's not actually the case.

[powerofdeath]

Btw, The jailor and Vig both not killing on top of the escort claiming their rb is a good mechanical look on both those slots. More to unpack there but worth pointing out.

Honestly if i was mafia vig, i would just holster until like night 3 or 4 and start blasting because vig have 1 shot anyway. No point in shooting n1 just to get lynched day 2.

[powerofdeath]

With Sheriff being virtually out of the game, and Lookout down. We are probably losing this anyway.

Just wondering why the only Investigative role alive was not protected by Doctor or Bodyguard.

Looks like I was correct D1 with jmw.

This remind me... I made a point in day 1 that town collectively should vote on who doc and bg protecting each night. As result of this mafia wouldnt dare to touch the two people we end up voting on unless they want to expose their escort or their doctor/bg.

I'm okay with having Horkos/Helz protected tonight. Jailor will be even more important if we, for some reasons, cannot get 7 votes on someone today.

Heres my thoughts on the rolelist if they are mafia.

Doctor - We could in theory order a doctor to protect 1 person that town collectively decide together. This basically tell mafia that X person is off table from night kills unless they want to expose their doctor as mafia.
Bodyguard - Same with Doctor except they could kill town vigilante.

[powerofdeath]

I guess I will start voting.

I encourage everyone to vote today.

-vote Phraze

[Gikkle]

gonna be honest my brain did not register that my role was a day acting role and so i didn't submit anything

i also didn't realize this game was majority only, since... i don't think it says that anywhere lol

also also i got confirmation last night that roles were indeed randomized

[Gikkle]

doctor and bg not protecting mm feels odd to me

i'm curious who @jmw and @Aeoryi protected

also inclined to agree w/ helz on the point that horkos choosing not to execute is most likely town

[Helz]

The scum factional kill would most likely be performed by a role that is not expected to move or take action.
Thus you definitely were a good candidate for a RB.

Vigi or Jailor 50% town 50% scum. Factional kill is 100% performed by scum.

I am not trying to give credits to anyone, but I can see why you got RB.

Also let it be noted that it is possible you tried to factional kill someone and a jailor or vigi scum buddy shot MM, and is now covering your back.

You are missing a few things here. The vig claimed they did not kill and POD claimed he was jailed and not executed. Thats both killers claiming leaving only the factional kill.
Why would they not role block me with that mindset, realize the factional kill happened and not draw a conclusion of "Helz is probably town because if he was scum he woulda been the one to do the factional and my role blocking him did not prevent the factional from happening"?

While I do wish you had let them explain their reasoning themselves rather than providing a defense for them- sure. Maybe they could have thought I would be a good option for the factional. But so much that I was a priority to RB over any PR existing in the game?

[Helz]

Why are you saying that I "knew" that you had 0 night actions?

I wouldn't assume that your role has 0 night actions.

This setup is a bit different than the usual setup with vanilla and power roles, so it isn't safe to just assume that "this role can do this or that". But you already know this. You are cleverly pushing this narrative where roles are somewhat AI when it's not actually the case.

I do not know what you mean. You know every persons specific actions in the game. The setup also clearly explains exactly what the factional action is.

Now I could have assumed you did not read some stuff and just did not realize roles were publicly known but that was my case for defending Phraze you disagree with. There is no way you can disagree with my logic there pushing on Phraze and also be ignorant of the fact yourself. Those two positions absolutely can not both exist in your head.

So again, What were the thoughts in your head that made you feel I was a good target to role block? Why did you recognize after role blocking me that the factional kill went through and somehow still think I was scum?

Imo your thought process and conclusions do not match up in a few ways which makes me feel you are being dishonest about your action, reasoning, or conclusion.

[Helz]

doctor and bg not protecting mm feels odd to me

i'm curious who @jmw and @Aeoryi protected

also inclined to agree w/ helz on the point that horkos choosing not to execute is most likely town

My lizard brain is thinking of a world where The Lawyer is lieing about RB me and actually did an RB on the Doc or BG while hitting MM for the kill. This would also mechanically make a lot of sense if the other of those protectives are on their team (preflip association of Aeroyi or JMW W/W with The Lawyer)
This would be a strong play for the mafia team that would make a lot of sense.

[Helz]

One thing I am a bit stuck on is the MM kill. Dude was read as town, had a high value PR and was an experienced active player. Very high risk kill.

@Aero yi, @jmw

Im curious what you two think about The Lawyer and the entire situation. Would also very much like to hear who you targeted last night and why.

[ewianking]

-vote The Lawyer

[Helz]

Action list.JPG

This is largely how I see the game.

I am honestly looking at Gikkle not acting as NAI specifically because the host gave a public reminder on submitting actions yesterday. As much as you all hate host meta that lines up and honestly I was going to be much more critical of them creating a small chat or tieing it into dead people and such. I have more thoughts on all that but it would be counterproductive to say them for now. Verifying roles randomed is also handy.

If the Lawyer is town they should be able to clearly explain their reasoning and conclusions. If they are not I do feel there is a decent potential at least 1 of our protectives are likely teamed and they got the kill off blocking the other.

[jmw]

Sorry for inactivity. Do not have as much time now as I do when I signed (excuse).

doctor and bg not protecting mm feels odd to me

i'm curious who @jmw and @Aeoryi protected

also inclined to agree w/ helz on the point that horkos choosing not to execute is most likely town

I tried to protect MM last night. If he wasn't executed by the jailor then either the escort or the bus driver is evil.

[jmw]

One thing I am a bit stuck on is the MM kill. Dude was read as town, had a high value PR and was an experienced active player. Very high risk kill.

@Aero yi, @jmw

Im curious what you two think about The Lawyer and the entire situation. Would also very much like to hear who you targeted last night and why.

I targeted MM. I don't know about Lawyer but I am immediately suspect of them because of their role. Reading up now.