S-FM 361: Rectangle VS. Rhombus (Small-Town Mafia) (13P)

[Phraze]

A part of me questions if my simply presenting the balance analysis and the potential strat of exposing all actions so they can be mapped has been upsetting in the Mafia chat. Getting some resistance without any "Your wrong because of X" bits.

That would be interesting.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I mean sure but is there really any merit in this conversation? Using speculation on what you think the host would do as justification for towning someone or sussing them based solely on their role?
I think a discussion of what roles might be town based on flipped mafia play and ability usage is similar in nature but actually helpful.

Claiming night actions is basically a requirement with few exceptions, I support it 100%.

Exactly this. Let us drop baseless host meta and move on (and wait until we have an actual base to speculate, at least).

I feel like games have 2 sides. Analysis and mech. I love both. But I can only play one at the start of a game.
If you get my flip feel free to follow down the path I laid out that nobody has disagreed with as a huge advantage to town. Also consider how the setup itself conveyed that removing feedback for town players on specific roles was an intentional decision to prevent mechanical crunches.

How scummy of me to propose such an evil plot that cripples the mafia team. Almost like the conversation we are having now has moved out of RVS and into a real FOS with reasoning : )

That is thanks to me trying to move away from your mechanical talk, though...
All the credits is belong to me!!

As for scum fearing for their lives because you are mentioning mechanical elements... I sincerely doubt it. "You should claim your actions/results everyday" is pretty much common sense, and the rest of mechanical discussion is currently quite pointless, since we have no flips and no real reads.

[SuperJack]

The lawyer is mia

[The Lawyer]

The lawyer is mia

It's currently 2 pm in my timezone

I'll be reading the game and responding for the next 6-7 hrs, then I'll have to go to bed early unless I get stuck in the game for longer than I planned

If you have any questions for me, ask away, while I'm here.

[SuperJack]

My million pound is mia

[SuperJack]

It's currently 2 pm in my timezone

I'll be reading the game and responding for the next 6-7 hrs, then I'll have to go to bed early unless I get stuck in the game for longer than I planned

If you have any questions for me, ask away, while I'm here.

Why do you think there have been so little votes? And why are you a part of that problem?

[The Lawyer]

Why do you think there have been so little votes? And why are you a part of that problem?

If you are referring to my low activity so far, as I said I'll be more active in the following hours so this should be corrected. Also I appreciate when people ask me questions. I'm rereading the thread rn. Haven't had much time to play yesterday.

[The Lawyer]

As to why so little votes in general, how would I know that? People are feeling too shy to vote?

[The Lawyer]

I would also be curious if you support my evil plot to mechanically crunch the game each day with everyone claiming exact actions and providing reasoning for their targets.

If we say- require everyone to give that info first post of the day I think it massively shifts things in towns favor

Evil plot?

Is this a scum slip? Are you evil?

[The Lawyer]

Some thoughts on roles, strat, and balance-

Mayor Not much to say outside the description. Room to wagonimics it late game. I feel its much less likely to be Mafia given how hard that could curve the game. 4v9 with a +1 vote on the 4 on this setup could translate to a N1 win.
Doctor Typical for site meta. More likely for a town role. Easy cover claim. Late game crunch mechanics to verify heals
Lookout Interesting that it breaks OoO. Slightly more likely a town role
Vet Compulsive is huge. A town player with this role should be VERY conscious of the way they are seen. Claiming is a mixed idea and its probably gona be one of the most difficult roles in the game to play. If you are town and less confident could claim early to prevent TvT. Equity for a jester level move as Mafia (although from balance I think its less likely given that it would hard leverage a player and be easy to mechanically corner)
Survivalist Cool twist on cit. Offsets the PR heavy lineup. More likely to be town as a role but also likely to be a cover claim
Vig Not much to say outside the description. Obvious play implications. Holstering may be the better play as town given BG and Vet exist but odds matter. 4/13 is a 30% shot. Math a tiny bit and make judgements based on game situation.
Grave Digger Lots of potential. Interesting nerf in the vanalize functions that makes me feel its more likely in the game. Pretty much the only thing to consider for actions imo. Slight lean for it to be a Mafia role.
Jailor Typical for site meta. Pushes advantage for no-lynch. Jailor should also consider jailing to communicate. Notable lack of protection on jailing. Equal equity in Mafia or Town and likely to be in game for one side or the other.
Networker Chats. Would be good to do them always. Also dumping logs as a reveal to self confirm at some point can be a HUGE benefit to town confirming and a lot of roles can play off knowing that reveal. Very neutral role
Bus Driver Typical for site meta. No feedback to the swapped people should be noted. More likely to be mafia for setup balance imo.
BG Potential for cross killing TvT. Probably best to stick to the hard obvitown group view for town. Mafia Bodyguard is interesting but imo unlikely for balance
Sheriff Typical for site meta. Seed well. (On this I suggest we start claiming checks each day. Breadcrums post flip reads which this site does poorly.) My N0 check was P4 Ewianking as cit (Value to doing it each day. Would not trust it end game but real value early/mid)

You haven't said anything about my role tho

[ewianking]

Zzz still no actual talk so I’ll start smth
I’m willing to give a town point to gikkle for showing concern about locking certain slots as town, it’s not strong but I feel it’s more towny than scummy. I also like Marsh’s entrance. No feeling on Helz atm.

[Horkos]

Jailor - I'm a believer that we should lynch someone EVERYDAY to render jailor useless, i dont care if theyre town jailor. Town collectively voting off someone is better than letting 1 person kill someone everyday

1rst who told you jailor would kill everyday, it can also be used to protect someone while not lynching a potential innocent
2nd i am now tempted to execute you asap

[Aeoryi]

Isn't mayor like always towned or nah

[Horkos]

He is not

[Helz]

Isn't mayor like always towned or nah

No. Typically in setups it has a locked alignment but in this one it does not.
I made an argument of how difficult it would be to balance as a mafia role but some people are deadest on the assumption that the host randomed all the roles so take that for what it is.

[Helz]

Exactly this. Let us drop baseless host meta and move on (and wait until we have an actual base to speculate, at least).


That is thanks to me trying to move away from your mechanical talk, though...
All the credits is belong to me!!

As for scum fearing for their lives because you are mentioning mechanical elements... I sincerely doubt it. "You should claim your actions/results everyday" is pretty much common sense, and the rest of mechanical discussion is currently quite pointless, since we have no flips and no real reads.

Just because you do not know how to use something does not make it useless.

I find it interesting the amount of people that want to invalidate the conversation and avoid it without even disagreeing to the things I pointed to and said have value.

Many people do not know how to use mech speculation to break RVS. I get it. But it is a thing and if nothing else we have noted some people openly engaging in the conversation, some silently avoiding it, and some actively trying to prevent it. I would say thats a bit more productive than spamming votes on people for posting an ugly cat pic but thats just me. Now there are some stances and disagreements ongoing.

[Helz]

Evil plot?

Is this a scum slip? Are you evil?

Very. Just not in my game alignment : )

I would ask you pointed questions but quite honestly an indicator I like is seeing what people do unprompted. Some mafia aligned players have trouble engaging because their real objective is just to survive until the night.

That said- what would you be interested in talking about?

[Helz]

Zzz still no actual talk so I’ll start smth
I’m willing to give a town point to gikkle for showing concern about locking certain slots as town, it’s not strong but I feel it’s more towny than scummy. I also like Marsh’s entrance. No feeling on Helz atm.

I did find that interaction interesting.

They seem to have healthy paranoia but also phrase things more critically than fits. Could be an accident but if intentional it could simply be an attempt to kick the game off vs a wolf painting. For example- describing my position as putting players as 'lock town' when I very specifically said with strong reasoning that I would simply not vote them D1. Questioning if the 'real' reason I held this view was just NIA. Preflop association of me/POD is a stance they mentioned. I would have put some value in it either way if they had unpacked it a bit and speculated on the world where I walk into a game as a wolf and very first thing align myself with a team mate.

As a wolf- Grabbing town cred on an obvious position and painting
As a town- Pushing against a view they disagree with and pushing to kick off content

All in all though I do like the paranoia and actively giving original thoughts. There were a few on other people as well.

[SuperJack]

I'm down for voting for no pictures

-vote Aeoryi

[Helz]

Jailor - I'm a believer that we should lynch someone EVERYDAY to render jailor useless, i dont care if theyre town jailor. Town collectively voting off someone is better than letting 1 person kill someone everyday

1rst who told you jailor would kill everyday, it can also be used to protect someone while not lynching a potential innocent
2nd i am now tempted to execute you asap

This does bring up an interesting question..

Jailor

[LIST][*]Once per day, you may target any character to be jailed[*]If, and only if, no lynch occurs on that day, target character will jailed by you during the following night.[*]You may communicate with jailed characters during the night, and jailed characters are role blocked and unable to join any other night chats.[*]You may execute a jailed character at the end of the night, bypassing all healings and immunities.[*]You have unlimited executions

@oliverz144 Would a jailed player be given protection/immunity from being killed?
Can a Jailed player be Bus Driven? If a Jailed player is Bus Driven would attacks or jailled immunity swap locations?

That second question is very unlikely imo but it did pop in my head

[Helz]

While the quote broke the role card list I was just pointing out that it does not say on the Jailor that it provides protection or how it interacts with BD mechanics. Only that it role blocks.

[powerofdeath]

Jailor - I'm a believer that we should lynch someone EVERYDAY to render jailor useless, i dont care if theyre town jailor. Town collectively voting off someone is better than letting 1 person kill someone everyday

1rst who told you jailor would kill everyday, it can also be used to protect someone while not lynching a potential innocent
2nd i am now tempted to execute you asap

lmao youre upset because i didnt want to give you too much power?

[powerofdeath]

Role-fish as in finding out who has what roles. Also, is this my first time playing with you?

maybe? idk if you played in krc in the past. Rolefishing is useless here though. I already know youre a bus driver

[Horkos]

This does bring up an interesting question..



@oliverz144 Would a jailed player be given protection/immunity from being killed?
Can a Jailed player be Bus Driven? If a Jailed player is Bus Driven would attacks or jailled immunity swap locations?

That second question is very unlikely imo but it did pop in my head

i see, i assumed it did but if it does not give protection then i might turn into a killing machine, i also have a question : if a Rhombus is jailed and had the free kill action will this action be blocked for the whole Rhombus team or will another Rhombus be able to use this action ?

[Helz]

You would effectively just be another vig..
Ima re-ask your question so it does not get missed btw.

@oliverz144 Can a Jailed Rhombus use the factional kill?
Can a Role Blocked Rhombus use the factional kill?

In the OoO Jailing happens first but RB happens before kills. Does this mean a Jailor could be role blocked and while successfully jailing someone they are prevented from executing?

[Helz]

Eyh Horkos- If you could jail 1 person right now who would it be and why?

[Helz]

I just did a stupid and did not read the OoO right >.< Sorry for wasting your time there.

[Auwt]

Well the website is loading indefinitely when I try to answer or quote.

I will place my vote here for now :

-vote jmw

Why? My gut is telling me.

[ewianking]

hm, Im unsure of Helz's playstyle (Pretty sure it's my first game with them), but I do like #118 because it seems they are being methodical in their thinking and not leaving gaps, Im not sure if scum in sc2 would fake not reading OOO too

[Gikkle]

You are disagreeing with my conclusions but not providing your own. If you were to share my view that game balance and considerations like player enjoyment were part of the decision making process for our host what 2 roles would be most likely town and what 2 would be most likely mafia?

escort and bus driver would be the most obvious choices for most likely mafia roles since they're just good for countering most town roles

again i don't really see any individual town roles as off the table if oliver did handpick, but i do think pairings like vigilante/mayor and any 2 of (bodyguard/doctor/survivalist) would be fairly unlikely.

Interesting. What about our conversation do you feel is more productive in context to what I voiced?

because instead of talking about what we think the mod might do (which mafia would not struggle to participate in), the conversation we're having is actually expanding on our own thoughts which allows for better analysis of our two slots (and gives me insight into your motivations behind what you were suggesting)

at the very least based on how you've responded so far i don't get the impression you were being overtly nefarious

[Gikkle]

-vote Aeoryi

[Helz]

escort and bus driver would be the most obvious choices for most likely mafia roles since they're just good for countering most town roles

again i don't really see any individual town roles as off the table if oliver did handpick, but i do think pairings like vigilante/mayor and any 2 of (bodyguard/doctor/survivalist) would be fairly unlikely.


because instead of talking about what we think the mod might do (which mafia would not struggle to participate in), the conversation we're having is actually expanding on our own thoughts which allows for better analysis of our two slots (and gives me insight into your motivations behind what you were suggesting)

at the very least based on how you've responded so far i don't get the impression you were being overtly nefarious

To explain my thinking there is a gap in "informed" mafia and "uninformed" town. This difference results in the town genuinely being ignorant and the Mafia having to fake being ignorant. Anything talked about that hits those issues is potential for the scum to slip.

So me rambling about "What roles did the Mafia get" hits that nail on the head 1000%. The Mafia will know what roles were picked. They know if I am right or wrong but getting them to talk about it forces them to bridge that gap between how they know what they know and voice reasoning that lines up with voiced confidence. This gap between reasoning and certainty can be identified.

None of these problems exist for a town player. Outside of our specific role we do not know anything so our reasoning would be natural and genuine matching our confidence. Additionally I just like it because with 0 posts in the game I can dive deep into crazy speculation and complex positions. That takes time to build in the game naturally but is also where the real hunting happens imo. Breaking RVS with mech speculation solves a lot of problems with the D1 early game imo. I feel like it can be much faster and more effective than people slapping votes around at random and nit picking tiny things to get the ball rolling while it also creates opportunity to hit on immediate slips.

Not trying to preach or whatever but hopefully that explains my view of how I see value in what I am up to. There is a good bit more too it than that but some would be counterproductive for me to mention coaching the other side how to avoid me hunting them and I doubt people want to read pages of my ramblings on play strategy.

[Helz]

@Gikkle
Something about you I am curious about. You earlier were specifically sensitive to 'narratives'

As a scum player do you tend to slowly shade before pushing?

[Helz]

For reference later:

Helz (2):
Marshmallow Marshall, Phraze
powerofdeath (1):
SuperJack
Phraze (1):
jmw
jmw (1):
Auwt
Aeoryi (1):
Gikkle

[Horkos]

lmao youre upset because i didnt want to give you too much power?

You want me to be useless as a jailor which is like you said a powerfull role , i wonder why you fear me already when i did nothing , it would make sense for you to fear me this much if you are mafia tho.
I guess as mafia you want to lynch someone everyday and remove a Roleblocker/killer/ maybe protector

[Gikkle]

To explain my thinking there is a gap in "informed" mafia and "uninformed" town. This difference results in the town genuinely being ignorant and the Mafia having to fake being ignorant. Anything talked about that hits those issues is potential for the scum to slip.

So me rambling about "What roles did the Mafia get" hits that nail on the head 1000%. The Mafia will know what roles were picked. They know if I am right or wrong but getting them to talk about it forces them to bridge that gap between how they know what they know and voice reasoning that lines up with voiced confidence. This gap between reasoning and certainty can be identified.

None of these problems exist for a town player. Outside of our specific role we do not know anything so our reasoning would be natural and genuine matching our confidence. Additionally I just like it because with 0 posts in the game I can dive deep into crazy speculation and complex positions. That takes time to build in the game naturally but is also where the real hunting happens imo. Breaking RVS with mech speculation solves a lot of problems with the D1 early game imo. I feel like it can be much faster and more effective than people slapping votes around at random and nit picking tiny things to get the ball rolling while it also creates opportunity to hit on immediate slips.

Not trying to preach or whatever but hopefully that explains my view of how I see value in what I am up to. There is a good bit more too it than that but some would be counterproductive for me to mention coaching the other side how to avoid me hunting them and I doubt people want to read pages of my ramblings on play strategy.

this is actually a very solid explanation of your perspective from you, willing to give you a TR for this

@Gikkle
Something about you I am curious about. You earlier were specifically sensitive to 'narratives'

As a scum player do you tend to slowly shade before pushing?

i think in this instance it's moreso that i get a powerwolfy impression from you as a player (from what i vaguely remember from you in the past and what i can see now) and so i was more on edge with what seemed to me to be you potentially setting up a narrative

i'm not usually so devious a scum player so as to sew seeds and false narratives and stuff, but i think it's fair to say i do my fair share of shading before i actually start pushing someone

[Gikkle]

powerofdeath/horkos not likely to be paired

[The Lawyer]

Very. Just not in my game alignment : )

I would ask you pointed questions but quite honestly an indicator I like is seeing what people do unprompted. Some mafia aligned players have trouble engaging because their real objective is just to survive until the night.

That said- what would you be interested in talking about?

If you could choose one player that you definitely would not lynch today who would it be and why?

[Helz]

i think in this instance it's moreso that i get a powerwolfy impression from you as a player (from what i vaguely remember from you in the past and what i can see now) and so i was more on edge with what seemed to me to be you potentially setting up a narrative

i'm not usually so devious a scum player so as to sew seeds and false narratives and stuff, but i think it's fair to say i do my fair share of shading before i actually start pushing someone

Thats fair. When I am on a site/account and using this name I typically do play more of a powerwolf as scum. Mostly because the curse of meta and people getting expectations but I also mostly play on smurfs these days for another reason I don't want to go into and with those I am typically playing the style I think complements my team. I have specific thoughts on how an effective wolf team should play. Could ramble about it if it becomes of note for you to clear me in association hunting.

powerofdeath/horkos not likely to be paired

I would agree. I also have not felt their interaction is AI. Their roles are diametrically opposed. Ones entire purpose comes from vote power and the others entire purpose comes from people not using vote power. Kinda expected they would have opposing outlooks and I do not think this is any sort of theater. TvT or TvM but never MvM imo.

[ewianking]

If you could choose one player that you definitely would not lynch today who would it be and why?

Let's ask this question back, Who would you not lynch today?

[Helz]

If you could choose one player that you definitely would not lynch today who would it be and why?

Right now Aeroyi and POD. I was not even slightly kidding when I said I would not lynch them today. It would take some massive slip or tell for me to flop on that. Balancing a mafia team to have a mayor would be very difficult to the point that even if I was hosting this and wanted to random roles I would reroll if the Mayor fell to Mafia. The player count and KPN just makes it awful for balance to the point that one role falling on mafia could just destroy the entire game.

BG for the earlier stated reasons. I was disappointed that nobody called me out for coaching mafia when I explained how its mechanically against mafias win condition to use their role for the early game but thats whatever. Its also just a pretty bad role to play as mafia to the point I question if a host would give it to one.

Both these views are built upon my assumption that roles were not randomed.

I have some soft views on player alignments but pretty much nothing that would put someone in the "I want them dead" or "I would never vote them" view.

How about yourself on the flip side of the question? If you could snap your fingers and kill 1 player who would it be and why?

[The Lawyer]

Let's ask this question back, Who would you not lynch today?

I don't have any firm reads yet, but probably PoD. I like their contribution so far, also they look somewhat different from one previous game I played with them where they were mafia and lynched me by fake claiming my role.

[The Lawyer]

Right now Aeroyi and POD. I was not even slightly kidding when I said I would not lynch them today. It would take some massive slip or tell for me to flop on that. Balancing a mafia team to have a mayor would be very difficult to the point that even if I was hosting this and wanted to random roles I would reroll if the Mayor fell to Mafia. The player count and KPN just makes it awful for balance to the point that one role falling on mafia could just destroy the entire game.

BG for the earlier stated reasons. I was disappointed that nobody called me out for coaching mafia when I explained how its mechanically against mafias win condition to use their role for the early game but thats whatever. Its also just a pretty bad role to play as mafia to the point I question if a host would give it to one.

Both these views are built upon my assumption that roles were not randomed.

I have some soft views on player alignments but pretty much nothing that would put someone in the "I want them dead" or "I would never vote them" view.

How about yourself on the flip side of the question? If you could snap your fingers and kill 1 player who would it be and why?

Probably you...if you're mafia we get rid of a power wolf... If youre town we get a decent flip

About not lynching today, I agree on PoD... Why Aeroyi though?

[Helz]

Probably you...if you're mafia we get rid of a power wolf... If youre town we get a decent flip

About not lynching today, I agree on PoD... Why Aeroyi though?

Interesting. Could you explain more on wanting to kill me? Your phrasing feels pretty vague. Im less interested in why you think I would be risky as a power wolf than what specific information you feel you would get from my flip. I do not believe I have taken many stances on players yet to form hard association takes.

For Aeroyi I have to wait a bit before clarifying but there is a very real potential their role is an absolute determent to Mafia. If something lines up I see zero reason to solve on their slot unless we hit mylo/lylo scenarios. If I am correct and they got rolled as mafia I legit feel bad for their team but I am 1000% gona exploit the advantage. I will follow up on this in time.

[Aeoryi]

No. Typically in setups it has a locked alignment but in this one it does not.
I made an argument of how difficult it would be to balance as a mafia role but some people are deadest on the assumption that the host randomed all the roles so take that for what it is.

So what point does it serve in this setup

[Aeoryi]

-vote Aeoryi

Oh what's this

[Helz]

Not confirmed but one side or the other gets the +1 vote.

For mafia its a HUGE swing. They need to kill 1 less player to win and 'potentially' could win N1 if everything goes wrong for the town. Also strongly increases the power of their vote block which is already scary in a 4v9. While I did not go into it before one of the reasons I see it as so batshit broken as a mafia role in this game is that 'if' its Mafia town literally has to have 6/9 votes all on 1 slot to overpower a mafia vote push.
Im sorry but that is just absolutely stupid. I would be butthurt about playing this game if thats the situation we are in and would rather assume its just not the case.

For Town its nice in a few ways. Spreads out the prioritys of mafia for their night kills, deflates the Mafia vote block shifting away their protection from day lynches and gives us Lylo/Milo protection in some ways.

[Aeoryi]

yah we can talk. setup spec is for suckers

anything more than one line i will pretend I have read.

has the mech talk finished yet? anyone yet said muhaha this mech talk has turned into gameplay now

i need an instant kettle

imo kinda just doesn't feel real here

-vote Superjack

[Aeoryi]

Not confirmed but one side or the other gets the +1 vote.

For mafia its a HUGE swing. They need to kill 1 less player to win and 'potentially' could win N1 if everything goes wrong for the town. Also strongly increases the power of their vote block which is already scary in a 4v9. While I did not go into it before one of the reasons I see it as so batshit broken as a mafia role in this game is that 'if' its Mafia town literally has to have 6/9 votes all on 1 slot to overpower a mafia vote push.
Im sorry but that is just absolutely stupid. I would be butthurt about playing this game if thats the situation we are in and would rather assume its just not the case.

For Town its nice in a few ways. Spreads out the prioritys of mafia for their night kills, deflates the Mafia vote block shifting away their protection from day lynches and gives us Lylo/Milo protection in some ways.

Is this mayor with the 3 vote extra + Macho when announced

Or am I thinking of something different

[Helz]

Just to clarify- A game where you need every town player in the game except 1 to vote both correctly and on the exact same player D1 for town to have day control is brutal. We would need a lot of lucky night actions and town having the exact right roles to dig us out of that hole...