S-FM 361: Rectangle VS. Rhombus (Small-Town Mafia) (13P)

[powerofdeath]

Some thoughts on roles, strat, and balance-

Mayor Not much to say outside the description. Room to wagonimics it late game. I feel its much less likely to be Mafia given how hard that could curve the game. 4v9 with a +1 vote on the 4 on this setup could translate to a N1 win.
Doctor Typical for site meta. More likely for a town role. Easy cover claim. Late game crunch mechanics to verify heals
Lookout Interesting that it breaks OoO. Slightly more likely a town role
Vet Compulsive is huge. A town player with this role should be VERY conscious of the way they are seen. Claiming is a mixed idea and its probably gona be one of the most difficult roles in the game to play. If you are town and less confident could claim early to prevent TvT. Equity for a jester level move as Mafia (although from balance I think its less likely given that it would hard leverage a player and be easy to mechanically corner)
Survivalist Cool twist on cit. Offsets the PR heavy lineup. More likely to be town as a role but also likely to be a cover claim
Vig Not much to say outside the description. Obvious play implications. Holstering may be the better play as town given BG and Vet exist but odds matter. 4/13 is a 30% shot. Math a tiny bit and make judgements based on game situation.
Grave Digger Lots of potential. Interesting nerf in the vanalize functions that makes me feel its more likely in the game. Pretty much the only thing to consider for actions imo. Slight lean for it to be a Mafia role.
Jailor Typical for site meta. Pushes advantage for no-lynch. Jailor should also consider jailing to communicate. Notable lack of protection on jailing. Equal equity in Mafia or Town and likely to be in game for one side or the other.
Networker Chats. Would be good to do them always. Also dumping logs as a reveal to self confirm at some point can be a HUGE benefit to town confirming and a lot of roles can play off knowing that reveal. Very neutral role
Bus Driver Typical for site meta. No feedback to the swapped people should be noted. More likely to be mafia for setup balance imo.
BG Potential for cross killing TvT. Probably best to stick to the hard obvitown group view for town. Mafia Bodyguard is interesting but imo unlikely for balance
Sheriff Typical for site meta. Seed well. (On this I suggest we start claiming checks each day. Breadcrums post flip reads which this site does poorly.) My N0 check was P4 Ewianking as cit (Value to doing it each day. Would not trust it end game but real value early/mid)

Now that i read this out, I feel like Helz doesnt realize that everyone's roles are outted. He mentioned Vet should be hidden but we all already know whos vet is

[SuperJack]

everyone knows i'm not a citizen? shocker

[Helz]

Now that i read this out, I feel like Helz doesnt realize that everyone's roles are outted. He mentioned Vet should be hidden but we all already know whos vet is

I do. This is probably the only game I have jumped into after signing up such a long period of time ago. I realized that before posting and decided to post it anyways. But yes, at the time of writing that I forgot that the roles list was outed. Even seeded my own role and softed to offset mafia PR hunting

[Helz]

I do still see value in analysis of alignment potentials for a few reasons-
1- familiarizes players with game mechanics pointing out bits others would miss
2- leads to town asking host questions that can be very important to game solving (On this note I would encourage people to share info they feel matters about their role to the town)
3- It’s a REALLY uncomfortable subject for less experienced scum players. Can lead to slips
4- coordinates the town on basic stuff. Like ‘not projecting actions given mafia knows exact roles’
5- Most importantly it breaks RVS. It gives us productive content to talk about before interactions can be hit on while also creating those interactions. The most NAI conversations can lead to hard trains and get the game going

That said- For those looking to get in and just don’t see much to talk about I would encourage thoughts on the setup, roles, and what balance they could see

[jmw]

Heres my thoughts on the rolelist if they are mafia.

Mayor - I'm not mafia i swear
Doctor - We could in theory order a doctor to protect 1 person that town collectively decide together. This basically tell mafia that X person is off table from night kills unless they want to expose their doctor as mafia.
Lookout - Mafia lookout would probably either pretend to be useless the entire game or get involved in a thunderdome with a random town.
Veteran - Pretty much a vanilla mafia because nobody is ever visiting a veteran, town or mafia
Survivalist - Almost same with Veteran except with 1 vest
Vigilante - will probably kill a town and become a vanilla mafia afterward
Grave Digger - Quite a strong role for mafia especially late game
Jailor - I'm a believer that we should lynch someone EVERYDAY to render jailor useless, i dont care if theyre town jailor. Town collectively voting off someone is better than letting 1 person kill someone everyday
Escort - I feel like this role would be kinda useless because you can get caught easily, so mafia would only do evil intent with this role when feeling cornered
Networker - Very powerful mafia role because from my experience, people in networks tend to townread each others so mafia will abuse this for their partners
Bus Driver - Very powerful mafia role that can easily throw a wrench in town's shenanigans
Bodyguard - Same with Doctor except they could kill town vigilante
Sheriff - They will probably lie and it would sucks for town to not have a sheriff.

As the doctor if either the BD or escort is mafia then they can prevent me from doing my job and I'd have no way of knowing which one it was
so telling me hey protect X then X dies gives us only a 1 in 3 without more mechanical info

I'm sure there's an optimal night action strategy from everyone that allows us to know who deviates from the plan but I'm not smart enough to come up with it

[Helz]

As the doctor if either the BD or escort is mafia then they can prevent me from doing my job and I'd have no way of knowing which one it was
so telling me hey protect X then X dies gives us only a 1 in 3 without more mechanical info

I'm sure there's an optimal night action strategy from everyone that allows us to know who deviates from the plan but I'm not smart enough to come up with it

On that note I could see huge value in us as players agreeing to say each day who we targeted and why. Given all roles are public there should be no reason to hide such info and every day we could mechanically verify the outcome matches the reported feedback.

This strategy will do 3 things to make things harder for the mafia-
1- They can no longer be quiet. All ambiguity is removed and it totally forces them to take actions they can justify
2- It obligates them to explain their read and reason for their action each turn. This means more lies for them and more for the town to sus out and hunt on
3- As long as everyone goes with this them telling a lie can be mechanically identified every day

I really do think this would be something we should socially enforce and track every day. Huge advantage for the town with a massive risk for the Mafia team and very little downside outside of future wifom

[Helz]

After considering it a bit it could be good to also have lookout specifically claim last. I was thinking of pooling people that wait to claim after they claim as an indicator but after digging through some implications of each roles potential to lie I think it would be more optimal if they just claimed last for obvious reasons.

The difference is it locks the mafia in harder to making moves they can justify and being honest about what those moves were.

On the most basic level while the Mafia has a very large advantage being given a total hit list we can crush them into limited latitude doing only what they are good enough individually to justify if we do all work together on this.

[Gikkle]

oop this game started

how's everyone doing

[Gikkle]

Yeah, Read the setup before I signed like half a year or whatever ago. Then drafted that up after the host messaged me on my PC. D1 hit and the host post reminded me the open role concept was a thing but decided to post it anyways. Figured there was a potential for someone to FOS me getting the game rolling but apparently it was a good bit too absurd and you guys know my bullshit too well : )
I was proud about how I had seeded my role in there though flipping the bolding and color code. Woulda been a cool thing to point to late game in the right situation.

I do feel that Mayor mechanically does not make sense to be Mafia. At the end of the day Mafia is a game that centers on vote power, not lives. If we look at a world where Mayor is Mafia:

4 Mafia 9 Town with Mayor Mafia its 5v9 in votes D1.
Mafia also has some buffs in less feedback for town + the factional not taking up an action.

Misslynch D1, N1 factional kill, mafia kill, and town kill hitting town we would walk into D2 with a Mafia win having votes locked up 5v5.

That would simply be difficult to balance around imo. Looking at the roles I have difficulty thinking of how things could be moved around to fit Mayor into the scum team.

Pretty much my reasoning for "D1 POD gets a mech pass" but I am open to hearing if others disagree and see a decent setup balance with a mafia mayor.

For Aeroyi a BG Mafia would feel slightly BM. Independent of balance I just don't see it as 'fun.' While something like a Mafia Sheriff would be effectively a citizen who visits the function of visiting could provide for interesting day cover, the BG mechanically would be acting against its win con in action. This is simply because the value of a wolf is greater than the value of a townie and even taking out a vig your removing 1kpn potential thats shooting into a pool with negative odds at success. In the world where a Mafia BG hits a Town Vig the Mafia drops in ratio of vote control and eliminates a town role that will more likely than not kill townies.
I feel like the roles alignment was very much not randomized in this game and a part of me doubts a host would hand that situation to a player. 'But' crazier things have happened.
I did mention I expect some kinda sleeper on the mafia team. Feels like they would have 'some' low impact role given the 4v9, factional killer can still act, and town is nerfed in feedback.

So yeah, Im feeling D1 POD and Aeroyi are off the table.

does the setup not specifically specify that the roles + alignments are randomized

why are you solving with the assumption that oliver hand picked the setup

unless... you have some reason to believe that to be the case? hm?

[Gikkle]

does the setup not specifically specify that the roles + alignments are randomized

why are you solving with the assumption that oliver hand picked the setup

unless... you have some reason to believe that to be the case? hm?

or conversely you're trying to get town to lower their guard and not worry about the potential of losing a little earlier than expected

pod/helz team mayhaps?

[Gikkle]

auwt got veteran last time this setup was played as well

found that funny to note

[Gikkle]

superjack asking to be bus driven to protect themselves when they are survivalist is certainly an interesting request

[Gikkle]

As the doctor if either the BD or escort is mafia then they can prevent me from doing my job and I'd have no way of knowing which one it was
so telling me hey protect X then X dies gives us only a 1 in 3 without more mechanical info

I'm sure there's an optimal night action strategy from everyone that allows us to know who deviates from the plan but I'm not smart enough to come up with it

yeah i'm not putting the brainpower in to finding the optimal play rn

maybe at some point

[Helz]

does the setup not specifically specify that the roles + alignments are randomized

why are you solving with the assumption that oliver hand picked the setup

unless... you have some reason to believe that to be the case? hm?

The original setup did. The posted setup did not. But why would you point this out? Just discourages creating content of value to break RVS and hunt and you do not even seem to disagree with my pushes there.

To answer your insinuation I focus more on what’s possible and useful for discussion D1. This is the most productive way to break RVS I know of and it has the advantage of. Do you disagree with my stated reasoning for feeling it’s a productive topic at all?

[Helz]

I would also be curious if you support my evil plot to mechanically crunch the game each day with everyone claiming exact actions and providing reasoning for their targets.

If we say- require everyone to give that info first post of the day I think it massively shifts things in towns favor

[Gikkle]

The original setup did. The posted setup did not. But why would you point this out? Just discourages creating content of value to break RVS and hunt and you do not even seem to disagree with my pushes there.

To answer your insinuation I focus more on what’s possible and useful for discussion D1. This is the most productive way to break RVS I know of and it has the advantage of. Do you disagree with my stated reasoning for feeling it’s a productive topic at all?

I assume unless otherwise stated Oliver followed all rules of the setup

I point it out because you're trying to clear two people off of it lol. And it's a dangerous narrative because if the mayor (or really any "unbalanced team combo") is mafia & people accept the idea that they're town based on setup spec then town'll just sleep walk into losing on day 3 (or just generally earlier than expected).

nothing wrong with starting up conversation in RVS i'm just skeptical of the narrative you were trying to construct

[Gikkle]

I would also be curious if you support my evil plot to mechanically crunch the game each day with everyone claiming exact actions and providing reasoning for their targets.

If we say- require everyone to give that info first post of the day I think it massively shifts things in towns favor

i don't see why not

[Helz]

I assume unless otherwise stated Oliver followed all rules of the setup

I point it out because you're trying to clear two people off of it lol. And it's a dangerous narrative because if the mayor (or really any "unbalanced team combo") is mafia & people accept the idea that they're town based on setup spec then town'll just sleep walk into losing on day 3 (or just generally earlier than expected).

nothing wrong with starting up conversation in RVS i'm just skeptical of the narrative you were trying to construct

There is something to be said about assumptions..

Outside of that assumption do you disagree with my reasoning or conclusions? Who do you think is more or less likely town?
And again, do you disagree with any of the points I made about how the discussion is productive as you are actively discouraging it? If you do not why did you not wait for that productive conversation to happen before pushing to hindering it from happening?

[ewianking]

ngl I do not have the brain power to setup spec, can we just talk? Granted I prob wont reply till tmrw, but I rather just read off reactions and let yall do the setup spec, optimal play, yada yada yada.

[Gikkle]

There is something to be said about assumptions..

Outside of that assumption do you disagree with my reasoning or conclusions? Who do you think is more or less likely town?
And again, do you disagree with any of the points I made about how the discussion is productive as you are actively discouraging it? If you do not why did you not wait for that productive conversation to happen before pushing to hindering it from happening?

if oliver did handpick the mafia roles i still wouldn't say mayor is completely out of the question assuming he made the other mafia roles generally weaker

bodyguard being mafia is somewhat just vanilla which oliver could easily make mafia purely to throw people off

trying to get into oliver's head doesn't seem to be the most productive thing in the world but if i did i'd probably cross off pairings rather than individual roles since most roles could work if the other mafia roles filled in the gap

i actually think the discussion we're having right now is far more productive than any discussion I might have discouraged by what I said lol

[Phraze]

I've had another child this took so long to start

This was hilarious (did I comment on that? I don't think so).

Reading.

[Phraze]

Okay so

Nice to finally play a forum game with Helz. Many words.

Oh yikes, everyone uses dark mode here.

I wanted to vote but didn't know how you do it here.

-vote SuperJack ??

Actually wait...
-vote Helz

[Helz]

if oliver did handpick the mafia roles i still wouldn't say mayor is completely out of the question assuming he made the other mafia roles generally weaker

bodyguard being mafia is somewhat just vanilla which oliver could easily make mafia purely to throw people off

You are disagreeing with my conclusions but not providing your own. If you were to share my view that game balance and considerations like player enjoyment were part of the decision making process for our host what 2 roles would be most likely town and what 2 would be most likely mafia?

i actually think the discussion we're having right now is far more productive than any discussion I might have discouraged by what I said lol

Interesting. What about our conversation do you feel is more productive in context to what I voiced?

[Helz]

Okay so

Nice to finally play a forum game with Helz. Many words.

Oh yikes, everyone uses dark mode here.

I wanted to vote but didn't know how you do it here.

-vote SuperJack ??

Actually wait...
-vote Helz

Lol. I tend to get pretty wordy. Sometimes it can get a bit much. I do tend to push early game so the game can actually start regardless of alignment. Kinda hate the whole "You posted an ugly cat pic -vote-" rvs stuff

Voting here is [.vote]Phraze[./vote] without the dots

Vote count is also at the top. This site does not have posting vote counts so gotta do it manually if you want a reference.

[Phraze]

-vote SuperJack

Thank you! My first vote of the day.

[Phraze]

-vote Helz

[Helz]

-vote SuperJack

Thank you! My first vote of the day.

Any thoughts on everyone revealing targeting post 1 to mechanically crunch the game?
Any thoughts on what roles would be more or less likely to be town/scum?

[jmw]

I agree with Gikkle that we shouldn't assume anything about alignment based purely on role

I think forcing a set of actions is OK, maybe, I'd want to see what we come up with first and make sure it's not something easily violated without mafia outing themselves
I think discussing *what* we should do is better than discussing what roles we think Oliver made town

[jmw]

-vote Phraze

Wish you left more thoughts on what you read so far. Also need to see more from Ewianking tomorrow

[Phraze]

Any thoughts on everyone revealing targeting post 1 to mechanically crunch the game?
Any thoughts on what roles would be more or less likely to be town/scum?

Not a fan of role-fishing, but no strong opinion. Different sites, different meta.

[Helz]

I agree with Gikkle that we shouldn't assume anything about alignment based purely on role

I think forcing a set of actions is OK, maybe, I'd want to see what we come up with first and make sure it's not something easily violated without mafia outing themselves
I think discussing *what* we should do is better than discussing what roles we think Oliver made town

Why not do both? Not like two conversations can not be held at once and we have to pick one or the other.

Also, how do you feel about everyone claiming their previous nights action as a plan?

[Helz]

Not a fan of role-fishing, but no strong opinion. Different sites, different meta.

I would ask the first question again-
Any thoughts on everyone revealing targeting post 1 to mechanically crunch the game?

Would really like to get every single player in the game to acknowledge its a good plan and get with it. I believe its a massively beneficial strategy for the town to the point the only real argument I can think of against it is that it will create a less fun experience for the Mafia.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Why not do both? Not like two conversations can not be held at once and we have to pick one or the other.

Also, how do you feel about everyone claiming their previous nights action as a plan?

In a world where everyone has unlimited time to dedicate to an unlimited day, yes. In a world where the start of D1 is very slow, no - and according to experience, people tend to forsake actual solving when the game derails into mechanical talk.

Everyone claiming their previous actions makes sense and will probably end up boxing wolves in someday.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Okay so

Nice to finally play a forum game with Helz. Many words.

Oh yikes, everyone uses dark mode here.

I wanted to vote but didn't know how you do it here.

-vote SuperJack ??

Actually wait...
-vote Helz

Ahh, a light mode heathen, I see! :P

If you really want to, you can go to the bottom right corner of any page and change the theme (the default one is called "DarkCore"). VBulletin Default is a light mode (also known as pain and suffering).

Why the vote on SJ, btw? Apart from "for the sake of it"?

[Helz]

In a world where everyone has unlimited time to dedicate to an unlimited day, yes. In a world where the start of D1 is very slow, no - and according to experience, people tend to forsake actual solving when the game derails into mechanical talk.

Everyone claiming their previous actions makes sense and will probably end up boxing wolves in someday.

I agree. I do not think everyone should go full try hard and such.
In my tism I just question why the subject of one or the other is a dichotomy at all. Do we really need to shut down one conversation so the other can be had?

Also, to be clear you would be on board with voicing your action each turn first post and pressuring others to do so as a strat?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I do still see value in analysis of alignment potentials for a few reasons-
1- familiarizes players with game mechanics pointing out bits others would miss
2- leads to town asking host questions that can be very important to game solving (On this note I would encourage people to share info they feel matters about their role to the town)
3- It’s a REALLY uncomfortable subject for less experienced scum players. Can lead to slips
4- coordinates the town on basic stuff. Like ‘not projecting actions given mafia knows exact roles’
5- Most importantly it breaks RVS. It gives us productive content to talk about before interactions can be hit on while also creating those interactions. The most NAI conversations can lead to hard trains and get the game going

That said- For those looking to get in and just don’t see much to talk about I would encourage thoughts on the setup, roles, and what balance they could see

It in fact really does not break RVS. I hate mechanical talk with a passion, in fact, and would rather keep it to the strict minimum.

Which I am going to steer the game away from right now, in fact. Your early post that acted as if roles were hidden was too obvious, especially since you added this:

I needs more sleep.

Mechanically I am expecting a 4p mafia with a sleeper mixed in. Aeroyi and powerofdeath get mech passes from me for the day.

If you spot what I did earlier dont call it out : )

It feels more like LAMIST than anything else, actually, now that I think about it.

-vote Helz

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I agree. I do not think everyone should go full try hard and such.
In my tism I just question why the subject of one or the other is a dichotomy at all. Do we really need to shut down one conversation so the other can be had?

Also, to be clear you would be on board with voicing your action each turn first post and pressuring others to do so as a strat?

On paper, in general, yes, I am on board. Do note that investigatives + bus driver shenanigans could make the order of reveal matter, though. I see no valid reason to straight up withhold knowledge for an entire day, however.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

let me cook

Proposal accepted. Do cook, however. I'm hungry.

[Helz]

It in fact really does not break RVS. I hate mechanical talk with a passion, in fact, and would rather keep it to the strict minimum.

Which I am going to steer the game away from right now, in fact. Your early post that acted as if roles were hidden was too obvious, especially since you added this:


It feels more like LAMIST than anything else, actually, now that I think about it.

-vote Helz

I feel like games have 2 sides. Analysis and mech. I love both. But I can only play one at the start of a game.
If you get my flip feel free to follow down the path I laid out that nobody has disagreed with as a huge advantage to town. Also consider how the setup itself conveyed that removing feedback for town players on specific roles was an intentional decision to prevent mechanical crunches.

How scummy of me to propose such an evil plot that cripples the mafia team. Almost like the conversation we are having now has moved out of RVS and into a real FOS with reasoning : )

[Helz]

I will say this for the 'other side'

Yeah, I am pushing a very strong strategy for town. Town can pressure people down this road and get info that will pigeon hole the game in a very specific way- But lets be very real here. That is exactly what this game is. Everyone knows roles and you have a scum heavy team with a setup that was balanced with a focus in mind of nerfing towns mechanical advantage on the opposing team.

For the plan to work we also need 100% participation. There are very big issues in many ways I did not want to dive into yet to optimizing it all and it also requires people with either hosting experience or a solid bit of effort and understanding to get a result on.

All that aside prior to suggesting this I did ask myself if it crosses a line of ethics. I do not feel it does. You are very principled so I hesitate to read your resistance as AI given if you felt something was unfair for the 'other side' you would jump on it but I do think putting the enemy in the position where they simply have to claim their action and justify why they did it is absolutely in the spirit of mafia.

Deception, Analysis. This is what we love. While the mech crunch really raises the bar on both is it such a bad thing for this game?

[Helz]

A part of me questions if my simply presenting the balance analysis and the potential strat of exposing all actions so they can be mapped has been upsetting in the Mafia chat. Getting some resistance without any "Your wrong because of X" bits.

[powerofdeath]

Not a fan of role-fishing, but no strong opinion. Different sites, different meta.

Wdym rolefishing? everyone's roles are revealed on very first post

It in fact really does not break RVS. I hate mechanical talk with a passion, in fact, and would rather keep it to the strict minimum.

Which I am going to steer the game away from right now, in fact. Your early post that acted as if roles were hidden was too obvious, especially since you added this:


It feels more like LAMIST than anything else, actually, now that I think about it.

-vote Helz

Unfortunately for you, this specific setup actually encourage to mech talk because its very easy for mafia to either expose themselves or get involved in thunderdomes if town play right.

[jmw]

Why not do both? Not like two conversations can not be held at once and we have to pick one or the other.

Also, how do you feel about everyone claiming their previous nights action as a plan?

I mean sure but is there really any merit in this conversation? Using speculation on what you think the host would do as justification for towning someone or sussing them based solely on their role?
I think a discussion of what roles might be town based on flipped mafia play and ability usage is similar in nature but actually helpful.

Claiming night actions is basically a requirement with few exceptions, I support it 100%.

[SuperJack]

ngl I do not have the brain power to setup spec, can we just talk? Granted I prob wont reply till tmrw, but I rather just read off reactions and let yall do the setup spec, optimal play, yada yada yada.

yah we can talk. setup spec is for suckers

[SuperJack]

anything more than one line i will pretend I have read.

[SuperJack]

has the mech talk finished yet? anyone yet said muhaha this mech talk has turned into gameplay now

[SuperJack]

i need an instant kettle

[Phraze]

Ew, dark mode. But oh well.

[Phraze]

Wdym rolefishing? everyone's roles are revealed on very first post



Unfortunately for you, this specific setup actually encourage to mech talk because its very easy for mafia to either expose themselves or get involved in thunderdomes if town play right.

Role-fish as in finding out who has what roles. Also, is this my first time playing with you?

[Phraze]

i need an instant kettle

Hi, I'm kinda here now. Thoughts?