S-FM 346: Warcraft - Page 11
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  1. ISO #501

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizery View Post
    Helz if you thought that a cw would have been good why didn't you vote on either of the dws
    While it is getting a little old referencing the same post where I have explained this
    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...388#post972388

    I felt it would be a bad idea to start a counter wagon (as voiced in post 297) while I felt a subtle trap could draw out someone who wanted to push against the lynch.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  2. ISO #502

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizery View Post
    don't really care for the ate

    helz

    me and yapyap have the same solve in our minds

    kill the other two and game over

    you're not special lol
    Thats fine. Im annoyed with the participation in this game. The previous day I started spamming LOLCats for the same reason while I had no pressure.
    Its not so much ATE as it is irritation to play a game where people put in such minimal effort. Sucks to be the one putting in effort and explaining the same stuff over and over.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  3. ISO #503

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    So how about your reads and reasoning?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  4. ISO #504

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    What made you think this? Can you quote the post that gave you this belief?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Mental recap:

    ē I town locked Guillo in first post because playing on this site for forever has taught me how to read people who post nothingburgers. Calling it a town lock was intentionally misleading and I wanted to see what would happen. Guillo backing off on the gimmick I think reflects poorly on him but it feels bad to scumread someone for not shitposting so Iím gonna let that slide. I will abstain from commenting on the friendly soldier claim until someone inevitably counterclaims him.

    ē Yayap applies reasonable shade on me for the above circumstances. If you scumread Guillo a scumread on me feels completely natural from there. This can probably be faked but I donít think it is yet, because I have my eyes onÖ

    ē Martin is a player that I have a lot of experience with, between archoning with him and sharing a chat with him in the hypixel game. Something about his thoughts on page 1 make me feel like heís massively overthinking this game, and since there was nothing to overthink yet, I believe thatís a scum tell. I know from personal experience Martin does not overthink things as town but even independently of meta this looks very bad.
    I felt that Stealthbomber was confident that someone would CC Guillo and that he had knew something but did not want to share

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    FTR I do think Guillo is more likely town than not but now that theyíve hard mech claimed my read on them doesnít matter until someone counterclaims it.
    Again he doesn't want to expand on his read on Guillo, so he throws out a basic gut feeling without explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    My visible reaction to being forced to play a different type of game than the one I wanted to play.

    Itís all good. I guess weíre a pair now. If you get CCíd then scum is narrowed heavily, and if you donít then I guess Iím confirmed town.
    To me, it feels like Stealthbomber in caught in a hard place with no way out unless he would claim doc d1 and be killed that same night - Stealthbomber wouldn't even be able to heal himself, with the giant target on his back he would need to accelerate giving out his real reads instead of trying to blend into the background and let wifom protect him

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Yayap taking my town lock of you at complete face value is the realest thing Iíve ever seen from anyone who isnít familiar with me.
    Even if Stealthbomber didn't remember my playstyle, I'm sure he wouldn't take me for taking that stupid post at face value. If anything he should have seen me supporting his idea to "see what would happen"

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    I'm not CCing, but also not convinced about his claim. I wouldn't discount his ability to pull that off as a citizen though.
    And yes, I did read your nice big post. But your: "but I don't want to be mean and wagon them too quickly and make them lose motivation" sticks out to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    @Yayap

    If you are PR you need to outright claim it or weíre going to be stuck here.
    I had already said I wasn't CCing, so this looked like him thinking I knew Guillo lied and was desperate to getting an out of Guillos claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    You are the one who has had the most issue with it by a wide margin.

    Guillo also expressed suspicion of it but he's Guillo and by extension expresses suspicion over everything. I'm impressed that he hasn't expressed suspicion of me yet- even though he confirmed me as town.
    On day 2, this reads to me as if Stealthbomber now believed Guillo to be a different kind of PR due to the lack of CC but isn't a soldier because Stealthbomber wasn't a citizen.

  5. ISO #505

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    I need to sleep as well unfortunately but I'll be reading through posts again in my bed. I did think Martin was a bit weird day 1 so it's not an out of place feeling. But Helz has been providing us with breakdowns of what's gonna happen with mechanical strategy so I am unsure. I now feel Mizery is town, although SB did push for Mizery to be lynched.
    Any wolf can talk about mechanical stuff.

    There are other reasons that make me believe is the last scum which i will present shortly.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  6. ISO #506

  7. ISO #507

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Let me begin that i have been sectetly townreading Yayap since Oliverz144 spewed him town. I have been making town theater with Yayap to make scum believe i was confbias on Yayap and tunneled on him but in reality, i was hard suspecting Luona, Martin/Helz and Ika.

    This was my way of protecting you Yayap.

    This was going to be my original strategy with Stealthbomber16, distancing from him, making scum believe we couldnt possibly be Friendly Soldier partners and that i was so tunneled on SB that scum would think that our rivalry was perfect for a lylo situation. But then i thought about a situation where i got SB mislynched by accident or close to being mislynched snd iíd have to claim to save him snd heíd mislynch me because my progression on him didnt make sense or some shit like that, so i went gor the safe route and claimed to green check him.


    Ika revealing being the priest gives me a lot of clarity in my thoughts, because ika being town adds up to the reasons why Stealthbomber was killed instead of me. Stealthbomber shielded the newbie while my pride and ego would hate the idea of losing to a newbie so without Stealth shielding him ika probably would have died at lylo and we would have lost the game.

    Now in the following posts im gonna explain why Martin/Helz make total sense as the last partner.


    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    Guillo loves their higher activity games huh

    feels like the millionth time they've said a game is dead at some point this year

    also it's

    [unvote][/unvote]

    Trying to vote "unvote" is equivalent to trying to vote a player named "Unvote".
    This post seeks to make us look like distancing by shading me NAI reasons but in a friendly wat that would look like a partner not trying to accidentally cast too much suspicion on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    I have the inclination to vote Ikar, but I don't like voting out new-ish players on day 1.

    So time to find an alternative

    -vote Oliverz144
    This read and progression didnt make sense for town!Martin, because town Martin votes for whoever they suspect is a wolf regardless of how it looks. This post makes sense for scum!Martin where he tries to make Ika look associated with him and the lack of progression to opportunistically vote for Olivers would distance them both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    -vote MartinGG99


    Feels like thereís some projection here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Mental recap:

    ē I town locked Guillo in first post because playing on this site for forever has taught me how to read people who post nothingburgers. Calling it a town lock was intentionally misleading and I wanted to see what would happen. Guillo backing off on the gimmick I think reflects poorly on him but it feels bad to scumread someone for not shitposting so Iím gonna let that slide. I will abstain from commenting on the friendly soldier claim until someone inevitably counterclaims him.

    ē Yayap applies reasonable shade on me for the above circumstances. If you scumread Guillo a scumread on me feels completely natural from there. This can probably be faked but I donít think it is yet, because I have my eyes onÖ

    ē Martin is a player that I have a lot of experience with, between archoning with him and sharing a chat with him in the hypixel game. Something about his thoughts on page 1 make me feel like heís massively overthinking this game, and since there was nothing to overthink yet, I believe thatís a scum tell. I know from personal experience Martin does not overthink things as town but even independently of meta this looks very bad.
    I agree that Martin was projecting and overthinking the game at a time he wouldnt be as town.

    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    -vote yayap

    I trust guillo with that.
    MU 1st game he did that aswell and was true.
    Im happy he will explain his magic this time
    Now Oliverz144 here knows that Yayap is town and is trying to feed my ego to get me to push on Yayap further.

    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    If we lynch yayap and he flips town guillo is scum
    This lack of progression on me to create a dichotomy between Yayap and myself after townreading me is what outs him and spews Yayap town. Why is it not a distance? Because Oliverz is not a good wolf and he was seeking to pocket me while also trying to get me executed next day if we flip Yayap and he flipped town.

    Oliverz knew Guillo vs Yayap was a tvt battle.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  8. ISO #508

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    Oli is posting differently that's for sure

    he didn't seem to care about my vote on him nor Yap's vote on you (who Oli seems to hold in high regard)

    its lean bad but not really confident in it atm


    YapYap I have good initial impressions of for a d1 so far, though most of that is based on "I've seen town do this more often" rather than "I think X or Y thing they did is good in this game's context". I'm primarily trying to get a feel for their skill level though, as that tends to make a big difference in my reads. Not entirely sure how to go about it though for someone who is completely new to most of the players here.
    This hedgey read on Oli is what i classify as a soft distance. Enough to look unpartnered but also enough not to push there to hard and make it impossible for himself to get out of that read.
    In this same post he attempts to pocket Yayap.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  9. ISO #509

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    In these series of posts Martin brings attention on Mizery as being a slot hard to solve.
    Asks town how we should we proceed as if in this game we should do it any differently than any other game, by reading the player.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    Anyone got thoughts or plans on how to solve Mizery?

    I think their slot will be the most difficult for me to confidently solve here given past experience
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    What's the past experience?
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    basically only ever time I've voted them correctly it was a mix of sheeping + PoE

    and the one time I've pushed them out of my own initiative it was a bad tvt situation that prob played a decent part in a loss (if memory serves correctly)

    so I kinda have little to go off of and I find their playstyle in general difficult to discern
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    I think Mizery is town just based on this post.

    Mizery here is putting a target on their back, is inviting people to question them on that because the claim is utterly ridiculous and they must know it is NAI, so why make that as their entrance if not to expect push back?
    Whatís more interesting is that Martin never ever challenged my read on Mizery, he treated my resolve as good as a green check.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  10. ISO #510

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    This is a good post coming from you imo

    Almost sounds like admitting to wolfing (see colored; typically its wolves who are self-conscious) but I really doubt you have the guts or skill for that so soon after coming to a different format

    Towns can also do that in general, though I tend to find its rarer with experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    Why it cant be a slip from a newbie Martin?
    This is Martin TMIng Ika town.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  11. ISO #511

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    This is a good post coming from you imo

    Almost sounds like admitting to wolfing (see colored; typically its wolves who are self-conscious) but I really doubt you have the guts or skill for that so soon after coming to a different format

    Towns can also do that in general, though I tend to find its rarer with experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    Why it cant be a slip from a newbie Martin?
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    Lumi is possibly more honorable with their responsibilities than I.

    Which says a lot if you know how seriously I take my own hosting responsiblities when I host FM games.

    I have no doubt that they'll be doing what they said they would be doing.
    This is an attempt to pocket Ikaís coach by acknowledging Lumiís honorability.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  12. ISO #512

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Ah, the classic "you are scum for thinking I'm scum" approach followed by cram that idea by spamming it so everyone is sure to see it. No where in any of these posts do you say why I'm scum... instead, you default to hardclaiming the ONLY PR role other than the doctor. Claiming Friendly Soldier was a nice touch to try to pocket Stealthbomber who has a 50% chance of being a citizen, its also little risk to fake claim since a rifleman can't shoot till n2 and probably can't kill you if the doc is on you (highly likely right now), a Sorceress can't do anything to stop the other mafia from doing the kill even if he is on you and a different Friendly Soldier would just bring us back to a 1v1 being your word against his which you can rescind your claim at any time as I've seen soo many times past games by other people.











    Still hasn't given any reasons why I'm scum, but keeps promising that he will / I'm still waiting.



    As Stealthbomber pointed out right after, me knowing the skill level of the people I'm interacting with is important so that I dont misjudge what I would consider scummy. This site as a whole has very scummy town plays.



    You know scum has locked in roles that are not random, and the Friendly soldier is specifically given the name of a random FOOTMAN aka citizen so this post adds doubt to anyone who doesn''t read the setup.



    Really trying hard to pocket SB, considering that he only answered the most obvious of replies.



    Don't care what you think should happen, I was inquiring for myself and no I did not read the signup sheet for that info to whoever mentioned that... I looked at the first post with the names of who signed up and that was pretty much it. Didn't expect there would be something I missed in there.



    I'm concerned that I would throw him into my scum reads too quickly for overestimating his skill lvl, not underestimating Lumi's



    Yup, don't care.. haven't impressed me yet.



    Really hogging that spotlight trying to ensure you get that doc on you eh?



    Still waiting....



    1- If mafia know exactly who will be protected by doc, its easy to avoid overlapping.

    2- Look closely and you'll see that I said my reasons were BS but I guess you missed that detail.

    3- Mostly the doctor is my concern, but if there is a sorc instead then you just made sure your buddy won't be affected by him

    4a- Doctor getting a successful heal is huge for town, you just made that harder

    4b- I don't want to die n1 and would rather the docs night action be harder to predict thus increasing my chances of survival

    5- if no info was given at all before n1, wouldn't you pick someone to heal that could potentially be a good player than a newb?

    6- I didn't say the respected titles were alignment indicative, I said it had a small pull on n1 actions... which I mentioned to wipe the slate clean so it would be even more vague what he should do.


    Still don't see why that makes me scum, I am enjoying being the bait though, some other peoples reactions have been quite enlightening.



    You seem pressed for time considering that you have yet to say why I'm scum, you've only threw out some generic questions that aren't alignment indicative at all.



    Lol, you obviously didn't read what was posted there... because I use meta mostly just to judge skill ability.



    Ah, my patience has paid off. Luona indicates that she would join the "wagon" of 1 vote on me, without even seeing a clear reason why. This would be sheeping / lazyness for someone who just made a big post just beforehand.



    I'll be back in a few hours... I have a few things to say on other people but it can wait.
    This entire posts oozes in towniness, this is a paranoid townie considering all angles of my claim and challenging me. Because yes, at the time i could have been a wolf playing a gambit betting on the Friendly Soldier to not exist, but his paranoia didnt allow him to think that if there was no rifleman, the sorceress or the real friendly could have CCed me and a back to back chop between me and the CC would guarantee a chop.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  13. ISO #513

  14. ISO #514

  15. ISO #515

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    If you can not correctly read my alignment having 2 players to read it on and knowing it is not on me. Before I even got into the game I skimmed the thread and felt Martin was town. Apart from anything else there is absolutely no world where I would shove the Doc onto the town block as scum.

    I was up to something last night but won't bother following through. You sound like you have your mind made up before you even read me. Like.. Wut?

    Good luck in Lylo
    -unvote
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  16. ISO #516

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    This feels incorrect. Aside from my personal doubts that a new player would purposefully sack their mafia partner in their first game, ikarus's worldview has aligned closely with my own throughout the game thus far.

    You haven't dedicated many posts to Martin/Helz or Mizery yet this game. May I inquire as to why that is?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    I have to assume that you're voting here with intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    I dedicated enough on day 1. I dont buy his newbie card, his posts through day 1 have been a mixture of newbie play and points of view from an experienced player.

    But the most important part here is that i voted him when he least expected it, he froze and bailed the fuck out. He has not comeback ever since.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    And this reads like a wolf expecting to get cred from voting out their partner when they didnt have a choice.
    Scum knowing that Ika is town, would see these series of posts and believe that Ika was the optimal player to take to lylo with me.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  17. ISO #517

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    I have literally never seen activity/post frequency lead to a successful scumread in a long form FM setting. I have been playing mafia for half of my life. It hasn't ever happened. Statistically it should've happened by now due to just dumb luck. But it simply hasn't happened.

    Quite blankly, I do not believe this means anything.



    That is because ikarus is a longform newbie (but an experienced shortform player I think?) who has been playing with the additional point of view of the literal mafia world champion.

    Not a single thing in this post is alignment indicative.
    By the way Stealthbomber, I have also played half of my life and ive seen this happening, there are players with volume tells and there are players who are incapable of reacting when their pocket make an 180 on them.

    Luckily for us Ika is the priest and your read was correct, meaning you had to be killed for this, scum with you and ika at lylo means Scum would lose.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  18. ISO #518

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    By the way Stealthbomber, I have also played half of my life and ive seen this happening, there are players with volume tells and there are players who are incapable of reacting when their pocket make an 180 on them.

    Luckily for us Ika is the priest and your read was correct, meaning you had to be killed for this, scum with you and ika at lylo means Scum would lose.
    I don't think Stealthbomber has been playing long enough on this site to remember how immensely powerful volume tells were back in the day. I was mostly responsible for the site meta to make everyone set the invisible mode to "on" because of it. But to use it effectively, you really need to know the other players. Knowing when a strong player who should have something to say was lurking or staying silent when he was not afk for rl reasons gives a read that very few people know how to use now on this site.

    Helz tried to use that against me based on my past meta - but completely ignored my changing circumstances for when and how much time per day I play FM. And just throwing out a blanket "Yayap isn't posting enough" instead of even looking to what I could contribute to the conversation. Even though my post number is low - I'd say most of my posts have at least been impactful to the game.

    At this point, I don't think there is anything else I can add that will change the outcome of the game and have to fully trust that Guillo and Ika make the right decision.

  19. ISO #519

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Let's take a look at Helz' reads on Yayap

    Townread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Yayap
    Spoiler : Spoiler :
    Good to see you again old friend. Its been too long : )

    Slightly lean town. I feel like he would have withheld something specific I saw if he was scum and although its been a while I do feel that I should be able to recognize if he is not town as the days go on. He has a methodical process that can be rather useful to the town as the game goes on if he is town which also strongly makes me want to avoid considering him for D1.
    Mindmeld with Yayap

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    That is a good point. Its also a very small game so note taking may not be a strong priority.

    Im going back through the thread and mapping out interactions. Waiting for host confirmation if I can post my chart given there are no last wills. I did note that Stealth calling Guillo 'Lock Town' (25) also suggests they are not W/W and that I liked seeing the Oliver train was specifically created by Guillo and Stealth (62/67) which makes me more comfortable.
    Townreads Yayap on Day 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Ranking people just from the wagon (independent of reads):

    Yayap:
    Looks good. They pushed Oliver, voted them and then when asked about reasoning he had a post that both felt solid as well as felt consistent with his earlier reasoning.
    Side note, this is not a townie thought. Why you'd fake a scum slip that you know would derail the game and cause your elimination. Town don't yhink like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    If I knew D2 was going to go like this I would have faked a scum slip or something to generate content like we were breaking RVS.
    Another site note. Advocates for policy lynch to eliminate Luona. In a game with very few executions that town cannot afford, this approach to Luona is outing. I voted Luona because I scum read her, she tried to CW Oliver by voting someone else, she bailed out like scum bails out when they feel they have no path to win.

    -vote luona


    As rare as it is for me to pressure vote if we have to go back to policy lynching to get participation I will go there.[/QUOTE]

    Continuing with his treatment of Yayap. Sets it up for a push on Yayap next day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    So for Yayap I felt like he noticed something specific that he did not mention. Pretty much why I have not messed with him. Poke me on it tomorrow and I will explain if we are both alive.

    As time goes on if he does not step up and push I would be more suspicious of him. He is generally a strong town leader and did not have a subtle presence D1 but he was on the right lynch.
    And today he votes Yayap

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    -vote Yayap

    My gut is favoring Yayap over Mizery. The way he casted shade on me yesterday near the end of the day made me feel like he may have been a scum viewing me as having too much town credit and needing to dismantle that days before we could be in a 1v1.

    Mizery's play has not just felt apathetic, it has felt very void of making plays with any focus on self preservation or benefit for a scum player.

    Where is the progression???

    I will explain why this is important after work, I gotta go for now.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  20. ISO #520

  21. ISO #521

  22. ISO #522

  23. ISO #523

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizery View Post
    and yet i kinda don't like the "im just gonnna have to trust guillo and ikar made the right decision" bc like bro if helz isn't wolf in your mind it's just me and therefore ez
    Mizery. I townread you.

    I know you are not big into cases for what I've seen, but maybe this once?

    Give me a comparison between Helz and Yayap and tell me who is likely scum between them two.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  24. ISO #524

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Not gonna lie mizery but there is little I can say truthfully that would make me look towny. My town play and my scum play are near identical and to lynch me, you might as well flip a coin to read me. Helz knows that thus why I wouldn't expect any progression in his read on me Guillo (not trying to defend him but that part of your read is inaccurate). The reasons I find Helz scummy has nothing to do with his read on me but how he has been reading others and trying to influence them; focusing on mechanical endgame scenarios when it really didn't matter if we were aware of it or not, it would happen naturally; his claims that he would like to set up a trap for me is strange because he should know that I wouldn't fall for it... and if I did, I would have a perfectly reasonable explanation get myself out of it.

  25. ISO #525

  26. ISO #526

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    Mizery. I townread you.

    I know you are not big into cases for what I've seen, but maybe this once?

    Give me a comparison between Helz and Yayap and tell me who is likely scum between them two.
    I am capable of casing people. I don't feel too strongly about doing anything and I need to be in to work soon so, sorry but i won't.

    I still think martin was wolfy, and I don't have much to go on for Helz because he's been ateing quite a bit.

    in my mind since you townread me it's basically a lock win

  27. ISO #527

  28. ISO #528

  29. ISO #529

  30. ISO #530

  31. ISO #531

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Guys, i woke up this morning to find my IP is apparently banned from the site, so I got no access from my pc. I'm using my phone on 4g atm.

    I hate that it is happening now, it is so much more difficult to browse posts and write something here but I'll do my best.

    @Guillo I also town read Mizery. Your entire post about Helz and Yapyap make sense to me, although I am still finding it difficult why Helz would spend so much effort in trying to deduce what will happen. Unless that is trying to sound town, with a bit of AtE. This is where I know I lack the experience to know what is really going on. I can voice my opinions on the matter but I was entirely wrong about Luona and n2 heal. I am sorry but with the technical difficulties I am having, I don't know if I can be much of a help right now, Guillo and other towns.

  32. ISO #532

  33. ISO #533

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Guillo

    I do not see any reason this slot should be considered. They are likely town and also likely the only town with a mechanically confirmed town block. The scum players would be rather foolish to kill him given it would mechanically confirm Stealth to the rest of the players so as Guillo stated he may be a poor choice for the priest heal. Even the fact he pointed that out himself makes it feel much less likely that this is a FPS scum play.

    On the claim:

    This would be a bad play as a town gambit. It would risk outing the other PR and create a potential TvT misslynch. Guillo is too good of a player to do some nonsense like that imo making it unlikely.

    As a scum play it would have some equity. Potential to out the PR and he would have the chops to go toe to toe to force the mislynch but its an all in play very early. If I was going to do something of the sort I would consider it more viable late game and I would have softed early to push it. Its less likely imo overall and I certianly believe Guillo / Stealth are not W/W. Connecting your team hardcore D1 would make no sense. Even more importantly the scum team would not know if there is a Vig lurking at night and claiming this would confirm yourself to them. That would be risking certain death in a way I do not believe scum would do.

    As a legit town play it makes the most sense. Puts up a potential town block which has many advantages and provides the town with some leadership. As he stated killing him mechanically confirms Stealth so he would have NK insulation with the play as well. I would see myself making the same play if I had received that role. If he had waited and N1 Stealth got killed his role would be less than useless. Claiming he peeked the flipped townie N0 would get eye rolls and suspicion. I will also mention the way he is triangulating with his peek is consistent with his claim.

    That said; I think its very likely the claim is genuine and that Guillo + Stealth are town. So with just that claim my PoE shifts to:

    Mizery
    luona
    oliverz144
    ikarusdk
    Yayap

    To be emphatically clear I think pushing Guillo or Stealth is dumb for now.

    One thing that didnt sit with me right after n1 was this.

    I healed Guillo n1, because he was PR, and his death would mean 2 confirmed town reducing to 1 confirmed town (Guillos death would mean SB is also confirmed), also if SB is dead, that would still mean Guillo isnt confirmed. Also I felt the scum wouldn't hit the 'obvious' target SB as was the general consensus as doc would be on him. So my heal was on Guillo.

    Helz reinforcing Guillos idea that he is a poorer choice between the two publicly, when Guillo is the most important doc heal target for n1 in my opinion, and then Guillo was attacked and healed, something felt wrong here.

  34. ISO #534

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    -vote yayap

    Going to sleep.
    I liked the analysis of helz on guillo - i recognised my own points.
    And if guillos town he makes good reads, and he read yayap scum.
    Yayap also said "im going eqting breakfast" "going sleep" etc...
    Scum care about appearance, so saying that is a scumtell.
    Lumi teached me that.
    Might be a long shot. But is this Oliver's last attempt to shield Yapyap from suspicions by trying to scumread Yayap?

  35. ISO #535

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Helz tried to use that against me based on my past meta - but completely ignored my changing circumstances for when and how much time per day I play FM. And just throwing out a blanket "Yayap isn't posting enough" instead of even looking to what I could contribute to the conversation. Even though my post number is low - I'd say most of my posts have at least been impactful to the game.
    Yeah. I have actually come to believe that was by far one of my least reliable thoughts. I do remember the FM you are talking about though. I can not remember a time when feeling 'This guy should be doing more' worked out correctly while it did throw me into unproductive TvT's many times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Not gonna lie mizery but there is little I can say truthfully that would make me look towny. My town play and my scum play are near identical and to lynch me, you might as well flip a coin to read me. Helz knows that thus why I wouldn't expect any progression in his read on me Guillo (not trying to defend him but that part of your read is inaccurate). The reasons I find Helz scummy has nothing to do with his read on me but how he has been reading others and trying to influence them; focusing on mechanical endgame scenarios when it really didn't matter if we were aware of it or not, it would happen naturally; his claims that he would like to set up a trap for me is strange because he should know that I wouldn't fall for it... and if I did, I would have a perfectly reasonable explanation get myself out of it.
    I very much disagree with the mechanical conversation not mattering. It had strong potential to end the game in towns favor. This idea that I am scum who shoved the doc into protecting the 2p town block while shoving the scum to attack in the same 2 players and then did a night kill on that block is so stupid to me I just do not respect it. Oh, And I guess I did that while recognizing the priest might be the new player instead of just exploiting their inexperience as scum eyh? And apparently I did that after not jumping on the established wolf train which is counter self pres. Calling that wolfy play instead of pure town play just makes me laugh.

    I do feel like you keep throwing shade on the things that people townread others for this game which is what makes me not trust you. This just feels like one more example of that behavior. If it matters I overstated my read on you yesterday trying to see if Mizery would opportunistically flip to pushing you. They still felt totally disengaged.

    Part of what makes me apathetic here is that I have played a ton of games and I am pretty much never mislynched. I did not do any FPS gambits or anything to make myself scummy while I think I played well and had a positive impact on the game. I also do not feel like I am being pushed twords being lynched substantially by a wolf. History would strongly suggest its just peoples terrible reads by others if it happens I don't even feel bad.

    Even now I have not seen anyone else Iso Oliver. The flipped scum in a tiny game. Nobody has bothered to really dig through him for association tells. We have this complacent town half playing the game. Even Luona seemed totally chill with being lynched as a town. What can you even do with that?

    Maybe I could bang my head against the wall and do some deep reads on Yayap and Mizery but why should I? As a principle thing I kinda feel like 'fuck it' and want to kick my feet up and grab the 'I told you so' that comes with my flip. Which honestly, I get that I am biased but this push is really absurd to me given what I did to the game state even totally independent of the rest of my plays. I just have so very little respect for it and its not like there is even much of a conversation from Yayap or Mizery to divine my alignment.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  36. ISO #536

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    Guys, i woke up this morning to find my IP is apparently banned from the site, so I got no access from my pc. I'm using my phone on 4g atm.

    For the sake of clarity: this issue is being investigated by staff right now and will be fixed as soon as possible. The ban is obviously not intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  37. ISO #537

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post

    For the sake of clarity: this issue is being investigated by staff right now and will be fixed as soon as possible. The ban is obviously not intended.
    -vote Marshmallow Marshall

    Lynch the staff for OOG influence in an FM game! They are obviously trying to silence Ikar!
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  38. ISO #538

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    One thing that didnt sit with me right after n1 was this.

    I healed Guillo n1, because he was PR, and his death would mean 2 confirmed town reducing to 1 confirmed town (Guillos death would mean SB is also confirmed), also if SB is dead, that would still mean Guillo isnt confirmed. Also I felt the scum wouldn't hit the 'obvious' target SB as was the general consensus as doc would be on him. So my heal was on Guillo.

    Helz reinforcing Guillos idea that he is a poorer choice between the two publicly, when Guillo is the most important doc heal target for n1 in my opinion, and then Guillo was attacked and healed, something felt wrong here.
    Duno what to tell you there. I wanted to make sure the priest saw the logic and I very specifically noted how it was anti self-pres for Guillo to push that making me trust them more. The fact I walked into D2 thinking the game could be over with a heal off the town block could help you read if I had TMI on the situation though.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  39. ISO #539

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    Let's take a look at Helz' reads on Yayap

    Townread.



    Mindmeld with Yayap



    Townreads Yayap on Day 2



    Side note, this is not a townie thought. Why you'd fake a scum slip that you know would derail the game and cause your elimination. Town don't yhink like this.



    Another site note. Advocates for policy lynch to eliminate Luona. In a game with very few executions that town cannot afford, this approach to Luona is outing. I voted Luona because I scum read her, she tried to CW Oliver by voting someone else, she bailed out like scum bails out when they feel they have no path to win.

    -vote luona


    As rare as it is for me to pressure vote if we have to go back to policy lynching to get participation I will go there.
    Continuing with his treatment of Yayap. Sets it up for a push on Yayap next day.



    And today he votes Yayap




    Where is the progression???

    I will explain why this is important after work, I gotta go for now.[/QUOTE]

    So you are basically saying Helz wanted to take me to lylo with you until I claimed priest, so now he is trying to lynch yapyap today, kill me tonight and it's you vs helz vs mizery

  40. ISO #540

  41. ISO #541

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    I did ISO oliver and was completely wrong about Luona
    I feel like theres some posts that should have had some discussion. Like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    -vote yayap

    Going to sleep.
    I liked the analysis of helz on guillo - i recognised my own points.
    And if guillos town he makes good reads, and he read yayap scum.
    Yayap also said "im going eqting breakfast" "going sleep" etc...
    Scum care about appearance, so saying that is a scumtell.
    Lumi teached me that.
    So his last vote is on Yayap because... he said he was going to eat breakfast...?

    Maybe we could WIFOM about if this was an attempt to distance, frame or multiple levels of distance but my god does the post stand out and nobody has even mentioned it.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  42. ISO #542

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Or shortly after
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    Cu in dead chat.... you will be the responsible.
    At the time it sounded like the 'I told you so' of a dying townie but post flip it was again, never mentioned.

    Could he have been talking to Mizery who was online at the time? Responding to me who he had answered 2 posts ago or maybe Yayap who he was just talking about?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  43. ISO #543

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Conversations I was waiting to hear about to know Yayap or Mizery had bothered to Iso olliver. Totally AI posts from the confirmed team scum.

    Again, reading people from what they have not done has never served me well but its part of why I feel like people are not putting much into the game.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  44. ISO #544

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Or shortly after


    At the time it sounded like the 'I told you so' of a dying townie but post flip it was again, never mentioned.

    Could he have been talking to Mizery who was online at the time? Responding to me who he had answered 2 posts ago or maybe Yayap who he was just talking about?
    This is a reach, this is a forum not a live chat

    -vote Helz
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  45. ISO #545

  46. ISO #546

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    If its going to happen let me know and I will try to give you guys something for the Lylo. But ask yourself why in the world I would shove the doc twords healing the town block so hard and then attack in the town block if I was scum. That would be a really stupid play when I could have spent my time building reads and casting shade on the PoE while letting the doc heal between the entire player pool as a scum player.
    It wouldnt have mattered because the recommended heal was between Stealth and I, you recommending outside of it would make you look sus
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  47. ISO #547

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    It wouldnt have mattered because the recommended heal was between Stealth and I, you recommending outside of it would make you look sus
    There was a big difference between recommending to heal someone and pointing out how the scum would absolutely loose unless they hit in that window semi-obligating the doc to heal within that window.

    Like I said earlier, You made up your mind on me without reading me and I am going to drive home how absolutely awful your push on me. The idea a scum would point out they are semi obligated to attack between 2 people and intentionally push the doc on it, then follow through and attack between those two has to be one of the worst lines of thought I have herd in a long time.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  48. ISO #548

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    What im not liking about @Yayap is that he bailed out after i flipped on Helz. Like scum who is content that the town leader is tunneling a townie. Thatís the impression i get I dont know
    I don't think his timing is AI. He is awake while you are asleep and asleep while you are awake. And I do not think he is the kind of player to shift their schedule around the game.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  49. ISO #549

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    The glaring thing i got on Helz will follow shortly
    Its a good thing I didn't hold my breath : )

    Still feels like you made up your mind and are justifying it after the fact. Maybe you are just burnt out but its not gona stop me from calling it what it is.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  50. ISO #550

 

 

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