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  1. ISO #451

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I kind of already did. I could probably pull rants outside of the game that reflects my view on the subject but I did very clearly explain it here:

    Here is where I opened that door:

    This was me creating a way for a team mate to push against their lynch simply by poking me on the subject. It would have been an alignment indicator.
    I also edged in that direction here:

    Again creating an opportunity for someone to poke at the potential for a last second vote shift by expressing I was simply 'ok' with the lynch and that a counter wagon would be a positive thing for the town.

    I believe the best traps are subtle. The ones that do not interrupt game flow and require attention grabbing gambits. You simply create people the opportunity to make decisions. In that situation it would have been a bad move for me to make an actual counter wagon but suggesting I was neutral on the lynch while pointing out why the reasoning for the lynch was bad and suggesting I wanted a counter train seemed like a good play. I hedged both statements mentioning how nobody touched on why the inconsistency was a scum tell in the slightest, pointing out the ATE reaction which nobody seemed to mention and mentioning how creating a counter train last minute would prevent people from weighing in to deal with questions after the fact.
    To be blunt if I was scum I could have nailed a truckload of reasoning on why we should lynch Oliver to the wall for the town cred. Just so you can read me better here is a bit of my thoughts on the hard bus

    Just with the players in the game I think Guillo was in that game and Yayap had a conversation with me quite a few years ago on how strongly I valued a deep wolf play.
    Past that if you want to read me I generally work to discredit strong town voices to power wolf. In that same guide draft I quoted you could look at the "Seeding aligned indicators with town" and "Seeding distrust/ setting up lynches in advance" bits and ask yourself if I am doing either. Im playing some really basic low level mafia this game even if I am the only one pushing the mechanical crunch.
    Claims he was setting a trap for scum to save Oli, his post had posts quoted from day1 that are missing in my quote

  2. ISO #452

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Claims he was setting a trap for scum to save Oli, his post had posts quoted from day1 that are missing in my quote
    Believe believe like blindly believe him no. But the way I see it. Martin was scum read by Stealthbomber and I was willing to sheep him on it.
    Helz then comes in and if he was scum I'm sure he'd realize was in a very bad position.

    I don't think Oli's partner risks getting read with an association with Oli instead of hard bussing to get some cred from us.

    I'm a very terrifying scum player myself and I would be scared of trying to save my partner knowing that I'm already looking sus myself, I wouldn't want that attention, it's suicide. No, as scum if I see both of us are getting PoEd, knowing that I'm a far better wolf than my partner, I bus him for cred to deep wolf the rest of the game.

    So i think in this particular game what he claims make sense and that places him last in PoE.

    If he made that play as scum... bold play and he shall be praised for it, because my balls are not made of steel like his in that case.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  3. ISO #453

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Well, then we both agree on that. Him trying to be placed last in PoE is what I see too. The problem I have is that Mizery and Luona are not helping at all. If I account that both Helz and I should be policy lynched, I think that only leaves today to decide who between Ika, Luona and Mizery makes it to the endgame if we mess up.

    You have your concerns on Ika, while I have Ika being the less scummy of the 3 choices. Helz is my bottom read based on content from today, but either Luona or Mizery going lurk mode and not caring still gets my vote.

  4. ISO #454

  5. ISO #455

  6. ISO #456

  7. ISO #457

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    S-FM Warcraft

    EoD2 vote count:

    luona (4 [L-95]):
    Guillo, Stealthbomber16, Helz, ikarusdk

    Mizery (1 [L-98]):
    Yayap



    Luona has been lynched. She was a Footman.

    Night 2


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-vNMKBoiCM in case the video link doesn't work for you


    Setup Link


    Player Role flip Status
    @MartinGG99 @Helz Alive
    @Mizery Alive
    @luona Footman Dead
    @oliverz144 Blademaster Dead
    @Stealthbomber16 Alive
    @ikarusdk (shadow hydra with @Lumi ) Alive
    @Guillo Alive
    @Yayap Alive


    Countdown until the end of night 2
    • 00

    • 00

    • 00

    • 00

    DAYS HOURS MINUTES SECONDS



    Don't forget to send your night actions!



    Last edited by Marshmallow Marshall; October 30th, 2022 at 03:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  8. ISO #458

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    S-FM Warcraft


    Stealthbomber16 was killed. He was a Footman.

    Day 3


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZWX7DdlDJw in case the video link doesn't work for you


    Setup Link


    Player Role flip Status
    @MartinGG99 @Helz Alive
    @Mizery Alive
    @luona Footman Dead
    @oliverz144 Blademaster Dead
    @Stealthbomber16 Footman Dead
    @ikarusdk (shadow hydra with @Lumi ) Alive
    @Guillo Alive
    @Yayap Alive



    Countdown until the end of day 3
    • 00

    • 00

    • 00

    • 00

    DAYS HOURS MINUTES SECONDS



    99 votes to hammer.
    (plurality lynch only)

    Last edited by Marshmallow Marshall; October 31st, 2022 at 03:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  9. ISO #459

  10. ISO #460

  11. ISO #461

  12. ISO #462

  13. ISO #463

  14. ISO #464

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Borrowing Helz's post

    Now- 5p 1 conf town, 3 unconf town (1 confirmable pr), 1 scum

    If Priest comes out now, then it's 2 conf town (1 pr), 2 unconf town, 1 scum.
    If we mislynch today (3 unconfirmed people) - 2 conft town, 1 unconf town, 1 scum
    Scum is sure to kill the priest - 1 conf town, 1 unconf town, 1 scum

    I don't think priest should come out just yet.

    Please do correct me if I am wrong in assessing this current situation.

  15. ISO #465

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    I think the priest should come out tomorrow unless on the chopping block today, given that person can survive the lynch and night.

    Currently - 1 conf town, 3 unconf town (1 pr), 1 scum

    If we mislynch - 1 conf town, 2 unconf town (1pr), 1 scum

    Scum kills one of two unconfirmed, and 1) if killed the priest - 1 confirmed town 1 unconfirmed town 1 scum
    2) did not kill the priest - 1 confirmed town, 1 pr, 1 scum

  16. ISO #466

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Priest shouldn't wait til tomorrow because we all know the priest is either helz or yapyap

    @Guillo idk because I'd have wanted to kill helz yesterday

    Helz probably but with luona gone i don't have any other townreads because i was being lazy

    Ikar is ok I suppose but that'd only be because it's his first FM game but idk how things translate over.

  17. ISO #467

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    A priest claim may not be the worst idea.

    So with a misslynch + an Unconfirmed cit kill the games over leaving scum in a PoE of 1. Town wins

    With a misslynch + a Guillo kill we will end up with the priest claim and a scum CC leaving whichever other townie as the kingmaker

    With a misslynch + a kill block we end up with Guillo as kingmaker and scum choosing to CC priest or fight it out in the PoE with the other unconfirmed letting them pick their fight.

    With a misslynch + a Priest kill we will end up with Guillo as the kingmaker on a 1v1 between the unconfirmed cit vs the last scum

    I personally like option 3 over option 2 and option 1 is just not gona happen. The advantage of a priest claim today is that it also limits the PoE from 4p to 3p raising our lynch odds from 25% to 33% while designating Guillo as the kingmaker instead of allowing it to fall into whoevers hands.
    The disadvantage is we loose the chance of having an additional voice in that last lynch. With skipping not allowed we can not grab another day with last nights lack of kill block.

    I would support giving us a smaller PoE today for a better town win chance + ensuring we have a skilled confirmed town as a kingmaker tomorrow over getting a random kingmaker or allowing scum to choose who they want to fight. Feels like the better play to me although the Priest would pretty much have to rely on us winning today or sacrifice themselves to do it.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  18. ISO #468

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I personally like option 3 over option 2 and option 1 is just not gona happen.
    Ignore the numbers. I added in the 3rd scenario to get rid of a wordy paragraph later and did not change the 3 to a 4 and a 2 to a 3

    The logic is pretty clear though. The last option is the best LYLO + gives stronger lynch potential today.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  19. ISO #469

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Im also going to say that if we are not going to have a priest reveal we should probably set the lynch much earlier.

    It occurred to me that we could have had a last minute priest reveal and not had enough active players around to shift the train which would be an awful shift in the scums favor.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  20. ISO #470

  21. ISO #471

  22. ISO #472

  23. ISO #473

  24. ISO #474

  25. ISO #475

  26. ISO #476

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    I do not think you get to be upset about it after not only supporting the priest reveal but also all but flatly declaring yourself as not the priest limiting their NK insulation.

    Care to throw some reasoning with that vote?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  27. ISO #477

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    Ok I'm the priest. I wanted to be a simple footman but the God said I should have a responsibility other than hauling food off mules.
    Kinda suspected that yesterday. I initially thought Luona was either priest or scum after coming to the conclusion Yayap though Luona was the priest. Dug through them and decided I really doubted they were the priest while I started to believe you were.

    Something he said near EOD2 about how I was wrong after I had voted Luona make me feel more confident I read him correctly there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    I did notice something and it is in towns best interest that I never share it if I'm right. I'm guessing you noticed something different than what I'm referring to.
    So what is interesting now is that in the 3p PoE Myself, Mizery, Yayap 2 of us have a game solve with 2 lynches and the third is the scum. Its simply a question of which order each of us should push.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  28. ISO #478

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    -vote Yayap

    My gut is favoring Yayap over Mizery. The way he casted shade on me yesterday near the end of the day made me feel like he may have been a scum viewing me as having too much town credit and needing to dismantle that days before we could be in a 1v1.

    Mizery's play has not just felt apathetic, it has felt very void of making plays with any focus on self preservation or benefit for a scum player.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  29. ISO #479

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizery View Post
    well yeah but i wanted it to be in helz/yapyap....
    Or this is a low effort scum unhappy to be in a PoE with Me and Yayap?

    I will put in some real effort later. Its Halloween and I want to get into a bit of trouble tonight.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  30. ISO #480

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    I fucked up revealing that bit on Yayap. Could have set a trap there
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  31. ISO #481

  32. ISO #482

  33. ISO #483

  34. ISO #484

  35. ISO #485

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    To be blunt from my view if you both die town wins 100%. We should still consider some basic follow the cop strat to remove scums ability to swing but reading etchother allows Guillo and Ika to read us.

    With that said whats your read on me and Yayap?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  36. ISO #486

  37. ISO #487

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    To be blunt from my view if you both die town wins 100%. We should still consider some basic follow the cop strat to remove scums ability to swing but reading etchother allows Guillo and Ika to read us.

    With that said whats your read on me and Yayap?
    "to be blunt"

    that's literally everyone's worldview rn and by everyone i mean everyone but guillo and ikar lol

    I still think martin didn't have a great d1

  38. ISO #488

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Kinda suspected that yesterday. I initially thought Luona was either priest or scum after coming to the conclusion Yayap though Luona was the priest. Dug through them and decided I really doubted they were the priest while I started to believe you were.

    Something he said near EOD2 about how I was wrong after I had voted Luona make me feel more confident I read him correctly there.


    So what is interesting now is that in the 3p PoE Myself, Mizery, Yayap 2 of us have a game solve with 2 lynches and the third is the scum. Its simply a question of which order each of us should push.
    The part I was referring to was that I thought Stealthbomber was hinting to me that he was the doctor and Guillo was lying. Technically, Guillo could still be any of the PR options if he did pull off a gambit, which would be game over for scum (I'm assuming all kills happen at same time, didn't see Order of Operations in the setup).

    As for Ika revealing she is the doc, there were pros and cons for each, but mathematically it didn't matter. Personally, I think it came up to whoever was the doctor to decide if she wanted to 1v1 the scum in the last day or be dead/kingmaker in the last day.

    -vote Helz


    I did his doctor reveal math yesterday and knew the doc had to wait till today to reveal. I don't like that he pushed the idea for it to happen any sooner.

  39. ISO #489

  40. ISO #490

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Alright. I got back from work but im tired so i will go to sleep instead.

    I sawbthe claim. Ika, since you are sure to die if we dont execute right today, let's work together.

    Im thinking Helz is most likely scum now need to reread the game though before parking on him.
    Tell the truth and you'll lie good.

  41. ISO #491

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    Alright. I got back from work but im tired so i will go to sleep instead.

    I sawbthe claim. Ika, since you are sure to die if we dont execute right today, let's work together.

    Im thinking Helz is most likely scum now need to reread the game though before parking on him.
    I need to sleep as well unfortunately but I'll be reading through posts again in my bed. I did think Martin was a bit weird day 1 so it's not an out of place feeling. But Helz has been providing us with breakdowns of what's gonna happen with mechanical strategy so I am unsure. I now feel Mizery is town, although SB did push for Mizery to be lynched.

  42. ISO #492

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    The part I was referring to was that I thought Stealthbomber was hinting to me that he was the doctor and Guillo was lying. Technically, Guillo could still be any of the PR options if he did pull off a gambit, which would be game over for scum (I'm assuming all kills happen at same time, didn't see Order of Operations in the setup).

    As for Ika revealing she is the doc, there were pros and cons for each, but mathematically it didn't matter. Personally, I think it came up to whoever was the doctor to decide if she wanted to 1v1 the scum in the last day or be dead/kingmaker in the last day.

    -vote Helz


    I did his doctor reveal math yesterday and knew the doc had to wait till today to reveal. I don't like that he pushed the idea for it to happen any sooner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    So if the priest healed someone outside of Guillo/Stealth they should reveal and the game is mechanically over
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Although a simple Priest reveal would put a 3 town kill in a PoE of 4 not revealing and a successful heal would also break the game in towns favor later so please don't reveal or soft or whatever.
    Keep it in context. I very specifically pushed for a reveal 'If' the non-kill was from a heal outside of Stealth/Guillo because it would end the game and I pushed against a reveal or any softing otherwise.

    Give me a bit of credit. As a scum I woulden't just run around asking the critical PR to reveal while also throwing a mechanical crunch that makes it a dumb idea.

    The two things I did not mention was that 2 successful heals at 50% chance per ends the game with a town win and that a successful hit on the priest would let them hand pick the king maker. Basically wanted to keep the heal at a 50/50 and not provide any incintive for scum to risk targeting the priest. Given the position they were in I would have gone for the high risk high return play to even up the odds which is also why I kept pointing out a shot outside of the town block would mean a town win. Poked it here
    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    I'd recommend the priest not get greedy and protect SB or myself.

    So with that in mind, forcing scum to kill outside the town block where it's always a hit on unconfirmed town or priest, how does it look like
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I would rather leave it there because its just better but its why its a HUGE risk for scum to shoot outside of your town block giving priest a 50% heal chance : )
    (After giving a breakdown how a non-priest kill would work but not talking about priest kill implications in post 437)

    Also focused on this D1. I pushed that Stealth is a priority NK target and that killing Guillo is a terrible kill that confirms stealth to push NK WIFOM off the town block. Then I FoS'ed Luona as a scum/priest read to both give them NK insulation and lower their day credit given they could clear with a claim and would not need it. The idea was to shove the NK between myself, Ika, and Yayap which is part of why I poked at a non town block heal ends the game and that the priest should reveal. The other part was Mizery saying this
    Quote Originally Posted by Mizery View Post
    it's either helz, ikarus or yapyap if guillo is truthful so this is p eazy
    Hinted at it again 330 and 331
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Still hoping I am right that the game is solved once someone says something specific.
    Followed by immediately saying
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Why exactly did you exclude Luona from that list?
    Not too subtly asking if Mizery had healed Luona.

    Anyways. Maybe that will fill in some blanks on any of my actions or motives. Figured everyone not priest/townblock should just go hard town for the best endgame so I did my overt obvious town game.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  43. ISO #493

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillo View Post
    Im thinking Helz is most likely scum now need to reread the game though before parking on him.
    The game is always frustrating when you have a 100% game solve, feel like you have been putting in more leg work than anyone else and watch the oncoming train wreck.

    I have only been mislynched 2 times ever. If you choose to make it a 3rd and fuck up the kingmaker play in Lylo I am going to mess with you about it well after this game ends.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  44. ISO #494

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    If its going to happen let me know and I will try to give you guys something for the Lylo. But ask yourself why in the world I would shove the doc twords healing the town block so hard and then attack in the town block if I was scum. That would be a really stupid play when I could have spent my time building reads and casting shade on the PoE while letting the doc heal between the entire player pool as a scum player.

    We should be pressuring both Mizery and Yayap for reads imo. I do not think anyone has been really comfortable with either of them the entire game and both of them have not been very forthcoming.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  45. ISO #495

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    The part I was referring to was that I thought Stealthbomber was hinting to me that he was the doctor and Guillo was lying.
    What made you think this? Can you quote the post that gave you this belief?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  46. ISO #496

  47. ISO #497

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    Just realised it is yayap not yapyap.

    @Helz , could you enlighten me, because I seemed to have missed this. Why you didn't vote for Oliver?
    Lol. I did that quite a few times myself years ago

    I felt that they were the set lynch and I was just fine with it. It was more important to me to generate information from the lynch by making their teammate think they could save them if they were scum than to pile on an already set lynch.
    I personally think town should always run 2 wagons. So long as there is a counter wagon a choice has to be made. Remove 'another choice' and you can not put much value in the lynch train because scum see their team mate is going down and they either highlight themselves pushing against it or lynch their team mate to grab the town cred. I wanted to see if I could get anyone to poke me to push a counter wagon. I find that often while scum will not directly push against it they have less reservations about poking others to do it for them. It was just a subtle trap.

    I did make a post on it twords the end of yesterday that was more in depth with quotes https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...388#post972388

    This is something that I noted again with Mizery yesterday. They pointed out how Luona was not pushing that they were scum suggesting that Luona was town. While I personaly would have seen anti-self pres behavior as a scum indicator I do feel Mizery thinking in that way reflects considering the other players thought process.

    In contrast I consider Yayap- When I saw a potential townslip from Mizery they were the one that pushed against it casting shade.
    When I came up with a mechanical game crunch they threw shade at me suggesting I was hunting for the priest
    With their timing on the Oliver train they did vote early but it was a soft vote without reasoning. The reasoning came later when they may have seen their teammate as beyond saving while echoing others views.
    When I explained my reasoning for setting a trap they initially phrased it as "Do you believe Helz excuse" reflecting their motive for shading me instead of divining my alignment
    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Do you buy Helz' excuse for him not voting Oliver?
    Like.. A town player trying to figure out my alignment would probably not start the conversation with a hard stance that I am making an excuse without also pushing I should be the lynch. Who was his vote on? Mizery. Why would he be convinced I was making an excuse to hide my scummy behavior yet not push for my lynch unless it was simply to shade?

    Off the top of my head a bit about why I am more focused on Yayap than Mizery right now.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  48. ISO #498

    Re: S-FM 346: Warcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Lol. I did that quite a few times myself years ago
    The odd part of how my brain works I remember an interaction we had many years ago where I called him Yapyap and he responded something along the lines of 'Why are you referring to me by my smurfs name.'

    Not game related but its kinda funny when you remember very specific conversations of no consequence years after they happen..
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  49. ISO #499

  50. ISO #500

 

 

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