Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again
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  1. ISO #1

    thanks Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again

    Frinckles has a WILDLY different game design philosophy than the previous devs. He continually rejects most community feedback that has wide support in favor of his own design philosophy.

    Case and point: Night Immunity

    Frinckles has gone on the record waxing about how he believes in player agency and that night immunity runs against that. His recent patch doesn't do nearly enough to fix it for poisoner and electro.

    The issue is, he is adding roles without night immunity in a game with several roles with night immunity creating a huge disparity. The night immune roles have a massive advantage and no amount of tweaking the poisoner or electro, even a one night vest, is going to fix that. There is virtually NO WORLD where you can compensate for not having night immunity. We can do the math and run the numbers on the likelihood of a non NI NK to win compared to a NI NK, but I don't think we need to. It is fairly obvious.

    The main save setups of the game, 8331 and 933, were designed with a NIGHT IMMUNE NIGHT KILLING in mind. That is not going to change, you just ruin and severely imbalance games by putting handicapped roles like electro and poisoner in the mix.

    Frinckles has been given pages https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...Night-Immunity and pages https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...te-of-the-Game of feedback by plenty of community members who are much more graceful than I am. Yet he chooses to inflict his philosophy on us - a philosophy that WONT work unless the whole game is reworked, say by removing NI from everyone and making a 2 NK save the norm. Nobody wants that. He didn't even address the night immunity points raised by Guy, which I also pointed out. What do we get? A still stilted half baked role with a 1 night auto vest. It simply isn't enough to keep up with SK, MM, and Arson. HAVING NI IS MORE VALUABLE THAN ANYTHING LIKE PIERCING NI.

    GIVE THEM NIGHT IMMUNITY.

    I understand you may not have time to continue development. My criticism is having time to make radical changes and then walking away from the game for months at a time; for rushing half baked roles through and then neglecting them; and finally NOT EVEN PLAYING THE GAME IN ITS CURRENT STATE TO SEE HOW MISERABLE IT IS TO ROLL A USELESS ELECTRO OR POISONER.

    QUANTITY IS NOT QUALITY.

    It is not worth giving feedback to a developer who ignores it. I really don't care if people don't like my tone. Far friendlier tones have been used yet they get ignored.

    My question is Frinckles:
    Why the stubborness on night immunity? Don't you see how your new philosophy does not mesh well with how the game was structured?
    Why the lack of transparency?
    Why not poll and listen to the community?
    Why isn't quality prioritized over quantity?

  2. ISO #2

    Re: Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    if a player clicks the button next to your name and they are supposed to make you die, I think you should.
    This is why I mean by the new philosophy. Frinckles believes in player agency, but not community feedback.

  3. ISO #3

    Re: Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again

    Frinckles —
    As far as NI goes. I guess people want me to make a major write up about it to see why I don't always jump for night immunity. Maybe I should, but in the meanwhile I think Poisoner definitely needed something to give him a little bit of a buff. (edited)

    So the one-shot autovest should give him some more presence.
    This total dictatorship is killing the game. It is all only about what Frinckles wants, and he doesn't believe in night immunity, so poisoner and electro you are screwed, despite the massive amount of community feedback on this issue.

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  7. ISO #7

    Re: Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again

    I don't know why you insist on throwing a fit on Friday night when I wanted to relax and drink a few beers. I listened to everything Guy wrote and decided that he's right about a lot of things but just to be clear that he knows that I'll go ahead and ping him here @Guy

    Adjustments were made to Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger, Poisoner and Electromaniac. Oracle will receive a slight buff next week in terms of how it interacts with being Sanitized, Caporegime will also get something to make it a bit better in a 3Mafia team. I don't agree with Guy's presumption that Party Host is underpowered because anyone who has been Mafia during a party knows how disruptive a party can be for coordination. As far as the Any Random balance problem goes, more roles will need to be released for Neutral Benign (and Neutral Evil) to balance it out; That means I need time to actually make them but I acknowledge it is a concern.

    I also want to add that when I said "I suppose I play them differently" in regards to Heartbreaker/Swinger I should have elaborated. When I play Heartbreaker for example, I love somebody on night one and publicly claim that THEY were the one who loved me whilst claiming Doctor or something. Most of the time, doing so gives the town a 50/50 that I can usually win if they even choose to lynch there. I recognize that not all players want to present that kind of challenge each game and so I considered options to make the role a bit more flexible. In fact, let's go over what I patched last night.


    -Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger have no restriction on when they can target, why? As I said above, I agreed with you that sometimes it sucked having to be locked onto a slot on the first night. PQR actually messaged me last night echoing the same thoughts because it limited the ability for the roles to actually try to deduce the best target for their ability. While I hope it doesn't make it too easy to win as, Lover will now be able to survive easier and find a good candidate to target. Similarly, Heartbreaker and Swinger will be able to latch onto confirmable roles or Town Gov to hold them hostage. I will continue to monitor how they do with these changes and if it proves to be too much, I'll probably make them use it by night 3.

    -Electromaniac can now charge two players as long as he did not electrocute anyone the prior night, why? Brock and Graky haven't been the only ones to bring up the fact that Electromaniac doesn't often get to make an impact in a game (gonna ping them too @Drizzt @Grakylan ) It simply takes too long to charge one person at a time and expect reasonable results so I let him charge two at the same time. You get Target A and Target B, and if you want to (idk why) you can actually just select Target A and the player will still get charged. That means a hypothetical 8 kill on night 4 which is in-line with some other neutral killing roles, the benefit being that if Godfather happens to be any of those unfortunate players, he gets toasted too. In fact, the way it is now, Electromaniac is possibly killing two players on the first night. The only thing stopping the EM from charging is whether or not one of his charges (specific to the EM) was involved in a kill the previous night, at which point you can still charge one person.

    -Poisoner can now block one night of attacks automatically (autovest), why? You weren't the only person requesting some sort of buff to Poisoner. NI isn't the only thing that has been requested. I buffed it by taking away doctor heals, autopoison on roleblockers etc. and I agree, the role was still a bit too weak. So I listened and caved I guess and gave it some form of night immunity. Previously I had given Witch and Spy similar forms of NI but they didn't really work on those roles and I figured that it might actually work decently on Poisoner. Thus far, it's been pretty okay and depending on the circumstances, Poisoner is now on-par or slightly stronger than SK. But for all the shit you give me about apparently "not listening to Guy" you seem to have not read what he wrote:

    Poisoner and Electromancer are fun roles to play with, but in the setting of 8331/933, Poisoner and Electromancer DO NOT have the ability to win games by themselves in ways that SK/Arso/MM usually do, and this is because of the lack of immunity. As frinkies has stated, giving those roles immunity might actually make them too strong for the town to handle, which is understandable thanks to the Poisoners similarity to 'dousing' and nigh-unblockable kill.
    You are teetering on the edge of stupid power creep cliff if you think night immunity is a solve-all for balance discrepancies. That's not how you balance a game. That's how you fuck up a game by making every role you concoct into a superman role that has to be lynched via the same player-base you talk shit about constantly. You will find yourself in more F3 Kingmaker situations because any other avenue of solving has been closed. They get to pick who wins now, why? Well not because of how well anyone played but just because they can. Why do you think Executioner does not have night immunity anymore? Why would you ever want to play Survivor over a night immune Exe?

    And honestly, what the fuck are you so scared of? You said you'd run the numbers. Do it. In it's current state, Electromaniac has one concern on N1; Hopefully don't get killed by a Godfather on night 1. Guess what though? Electromaniac can also charge two people and then Godfather might go up in smoke anyway. So again, what are you afraid of? Do you think a Vigilante shouldn't be allowed to actually remove a player from the game by playing good -- that he's only able to take out his teammates by having shit reads? Like give me a break. And regardless of any of this you never mention the fact that Constable, Double Flower and Arsonist can erase anyone who is night immune during the day. You apparently have no problem with that.

    I don't have a problem with Night Immunity. I made Armorsmith which is a role that literally fucking hands out night immunity. I've tried multiple occasions to see if night immunity worked on different roles. The difference is that in your mind it is a band-aid that you can slap on anything expecting good results and not thinking about the downsides. Sometimes you get killed on night one. Get over it and don't give me shit about it ruining the balance of the game because instead of a Godfather killing Poisoner or Electromaniac it could easily be a Jailor or Kidnapper who just so happened to pick right.

    I've been communicating with this community since day one including you. We have a discord chat log of our talks that's pretty extensive where I asked you specifically what you thought about a lot of different things. I've even made change to the game at your request but I guess you forgot. I guess you also forgot about about how like 10 of us, including you, were in voice chat on discord talking balance and design. But you know what it's all good, I respect you and appreciate your opinions on balance even if it's accompanied by incessant bitching. Just don't try to start a shitstorm on my Friday night when I'm relaxing and having a beer and don't accuse me of not playing the fucking game I develop or being out of touch with it. If you don't see me playing I'm probably not on my main account because I don't want to be bothered.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  8. ISO #8

    Re: Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again

    I'll just disable all the new roles and host my own lobbies. If I get repicked then to echo the famous clan, CHOO CHOO. It's not worth playing useless broken roles.

    I'm not going to run the numbers to reveal the obvious, because even if I did you wouldn't back down on your stubbornness to fix the broken roles

    I have a lot of problems with some of the new roles, but I chose to focus on these two because it is the most blatant and glaring example of your "vision" just not working. Poll the community on it.

    Please don't add more roles. Far too many were rushed through as it is.

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    Re: Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I'll just disable all the new roles and host my own lobbies. If I get repicked then to echo the famous clan, CHOO CHOO. It's not worth playing useless broken roles.

    I'm not going to run the numbers to reveal the obvious, because even if I did you wouldn't back down on your stubbornness to fix the broken roles

    I have a lot of problems with some of the new roles, but I chose to focus on these two because it is the most blatant and glaring example of your "vision" just not working. Poll the community on it.

    Please don't add more roles. Far too many were rushed through as it is.
    Nothing has stopped you or other players from disabling them before. I know Exeter disables some support roles so bringing that up is pointless.

    You said we can do the math and run the numbers in your first post. Do it. You think in your world where Poisoner and EM have night immunity they won't be killed by a jailor? Is that just good luck? Okay then how about a kidnapper who has two teammates to reduce the pool? You don't want to run the numbers because you know your wrong.

    You played like 3 games last night, one of which ironically had an Electromaniac jailed and killed n1. If only he had been night immune right?

    Post what you don't like about other roles. Guy made a fantastic post about his thoughts on them and you just complained about lover and NI the whole time. I can't read your mind. Hell, tell me what you think about day kills. You can disable those too.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

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