24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat
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  1. ISO #1

    24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    One change that we've been discussing making moving forwards is switching to using 24/7 wolf chats as the default on the site as opposed to the night-only chats from the past.

    Anyone who has heard me talk about the topic knows I greatly prefer 24/7 wolf chat over night-only chat, but before I make my case I want to open the floor to the community to discuss the two options first.

  2. ISO #2

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    I generally feel ike 24/7 chat is hella strong, to the point that wolf really doesn't need it most of the time. In fact, 24/7 chats' power ceiling is so high (in my mind, maybe I'm wrong I haven't had much experience with it) that I would be very cautious about it. If game balance is done accordingly, I have nothing against it.

  3. ISO #3

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    1. There are currently X users browsing this thread can be useful to help angle-shoot if 24/7 wolf chat exists.
    2. It makes coaching less skillful scum players easier on the fly and increasing the burden town has to deal with.
    3. This website has a strong scum metagame here already (as far as I know), I'm not sure what the change stands to gain.
    4. End of day pressure from wolves would become easier to apply in certain situations; Just ping that dumb dumb player on the discord channel a few times and boom, he logs in to vote. That's inherently an advantage for scum because I literally get notifications to my phone if I'm in the bathroom.


    I like 24/7 scum chat in some setups and feel that sometimes it can be necessary, particularly with in-thread kills. I think it is unnecessary in anything closely resembling mountainous. Looking forward to why you think it's a preferable alternative.
    Last edited by Frinckles; April 14th, 2022 at 06:59 PM.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  4. ISO #4

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    I've brought a few of my opinions to Lag before.

    I've seen some of the numbers, evidence supports that we've been getting more FM players from other sites than we have from the mod. On most other sites, a 24/7 scum chat is the norm. Having our site have a similar way things are ran/operated would likely do a better job of attracting these off-site players. We're getting substantially less players from the mod than we used to back in our hay-day. SC2 is a dying game, with a dying arcade section, and despite everything we can do (and have done) to reinvigorate the mod, people aren't downloading StarCraft 2 just to play Mafia.

    I think most of my issue comes from the fact that this "new standard" is that it's a standard to be enforced on hosts. This site has a very long history of being a champion of host's rights, and my reputation as a "experimental" host is enabled by that fundamental idea of hosts rights, it's not a huge change, really, but this is the first one since I've started hosting that directly restricts my setup creation.

    As a player and a host, I know that a 24/7 chat is stronger than a night only chat; giving scum the ability to coordinate during the day when feedback is given, when town starts to make their plans, when scum learns that something went wrong for them, gives them an advantage over scum that can't come up with a game plan together to adapt to their current situation. I've based a couple of my setups around this, I've given one scum faction a small advantage in numbers, they had three slots but weaker abilities, I gave another scum faction only two members, but they had a 24/7 chat and stronger mechanics. I'm of the opinion that a night only chat vs 24/7 chat is a significant enough factor for balance that it should be left to host's discretion.

    I think this change marks a significant change in our branding as a sc2mafia site. Night only has been a standard for this site since it's inception, and it ties us with the mod, which is also night only with zero exception. I'm not disillusioned enough to believe that we can keep our current player count up with just recruits from the mod with our current policies, and even if we took a proactive approach to recruiting, there isn't likely to be that many people that 1. play the mod, 2. play FM on our site, 3. is willing to actively try and recruit people from the mod to our site, and 4. be staff material. So what do we do, do we continue to distance ourselves from the mod and how it works, or do we double down on our ties with the sc2mafia mod? We're getting more people from other sites currently, and eventually StarCraft 2 is going to not draw in any new players at all.

    To sum up my opinion, I agree with the numbers I've seen, but I'm torn, really.
    Last edited by deathworlds; April 14th, 2022 at 07:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    BRO HUUUUUUMP!! That's so Mesk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  5. ISO #5

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by deathworlds View Post
    distance ourselves from the mod and how it works, or do we double down on our ties with the sc2mafia mod
    Day-night cycle in the mod is as close to genuine mafia real as you can get. If 24/7 is the norm elsewhere, we're (FM) purists in regards to the game.

    You're right though, does this limit hosts and or roles that generally interfere with 48d/24n mechanics? Would party host just throw a party and scum can talk in it anyway in addition to their normal 24/7? Case-by-case basis I assume but then isn't that the status-quo?

    As far as mod players entering FM go, we've had plenty of new faces lately, some good, some bad -- but ill encouraging them to try out FM. Lag has done a spectacular job of bringing in people from other sites so I'm curious what they're thinking.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  6. ISO #6

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by deathworlds View Post
    even if we took a proactive approach to recruiting, there isn't likely to be that many people that 1. play the mod, 2. play FM on our site, 3. is willing to actively try and recruit people from the mod to our site, and 4. be staff material.

    By the way, if there is actually someone that fits this criteria and is interested in helping recruit mod players to play in FM as a staff role. DM me

  7. ISO #7

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    In a setup like krc I'd prefer night only, and depending on the setup some but few semi-opens also. Both because of the possibility of it enabling game breaking plays.

    In a setup like Mountainous or any low PR regular setup I prefer 24/7 because I find the idea of catching some newly formed wolf agenda live. It's more enjoyable for wolves also and innocent enough for such setups that the fun aspect greatly outweighs any negatives imho.
    I guess for nights only technically there's things like trying to catch someone who eagerly awaited the night chat and then came in strong after the night, or something like that, but it's meh by comparison and probably mostly NAI anyway.

    I don't remember seeing any host changing even simple mechanics like that for their game. It's always been whatever the setup page already said. I don't expect that to change, but if it does and when hosts do put in this change in signups when hosting preexisting setups - then perhaps it's worth considering telling everyone to also hide their online status?
    Last edited by OzyWho; April 14th, 2022 at 08:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

  8. ISO #8

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Lag has done a spectacular job of bringing in people from other sites so I'm curious what they're thinking.
    I'm up for this being the deciding factor.
    Last edited by OzyWho; April 14th, 2022 at 08:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

  9. ISO #9

  10. ISO #10

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Apparently even FoL has never had problems with 24/7 chat, and they're heavy mech lovers as they go.
    Edit: in fact, day chat allowed them to be more mech heavy as mech heaviness is otherwise a town buff.
    I guess this means I'm mostly for having most games be 24/7.
    Only setups like krc and Smiths I could see it causing trouble, few setups by comparison.
    Last edited by OzyWho; April 14th, 2022 at 09:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

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  15. ISO #15

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    I just want to quote a fairly good criticism about night only chat:
    I have been summoned
    (ccing @mansnicks )
    on most sites that I play on, 24/7 wolfchat rather than night only wolfchat is standard. This is not true everywhere, and plenty of places do it differently.

    On some level this is a balance decision -- if wolves have 24/7 chat, they can talk/coordinate/etc., whereas if they don't have that it is much harder for them to do anything resembling that. This is especially true in games with no N0 planning phase; if wolves don't get to talk until night 1, and until then basically have to improvise a plan separately with no way to coordinate with each other, this obviously makes it harder for them.

    This is also on some level (I suspect the level on which this change is being pushed) a balance decision. Many players find it kind of unenjoyable to roll scum and not be able to talk to or coordinate with their team; many players see 'being in wolfchat' as one of the fun parts about being a wolf. Neither of these is universal but both of these are common.

    I don't think that either '24/7 wolfchat' or 'not that' should be enforced on a site level, in my opinion those are both decisions that can be left up to the individual host. If players don't want to play a game without 24/7 wolfchat, then this will kind of solve itself -- they just won't sign up for games that don't have it.

    Personally I would probably not sign up for a game with nightchat only for wolves and only run games with 24/7 wolfchat.
    I agree that Night Only chat can be a miserable experience for the wolves by comparison to 24/7 chat.

    Edit: let's not forget that we've Night Only chat in most setups just because mechanics were either copied directly from already approved setups or copied because our experiences are so biased in favor of Night Only chat.. since.. you know.. it's like almost every setup page for a decade..
    Last edited by OzyWho; April 15th, 2022 at 01:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

  16. ISO #16

  17. ISO #17

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    @deathworlds , I agree with you about host freedom, and have actually discussed the matter
    Conclusion: our policy is that you should have a reason to make it non-24/7. We're not picky on the reason, though: if it really is a design decision because you want the setup to be that way, we don't have an objection to it! It really is just "do something else to balance if it's the only reason, because it's far from being the only option". It really isn't meant to be a branding change; in fact, we only stated the policy that would otherwise have been applied in the shadows so that hosts know what we think is best and why. Also remember that we are always glad to discuss openly in setup threads about such matters, so it really is a small limitation, a bit like "vanilla jesters generally suck unless you have a good reason to include them", which has been a longstanding policy.

    Your example of a multiball playing around with night-only chats and 24/7 chats is probably the most obvious kind of design decision, and we wouldn't even question that lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.

  18. ISO #18

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Apparently even FoL has never had problems with 24/7 chat, and they're heavy mech lovers as they go.
    Edit: in fact, day chat allowed them to be more mech heavy as mech heaviness is otherwise a town buff.
    I guess this means I'm mostly for having most games be 24/7.
    Only setups like krc and Smiths I could see it causing trouble, few setups by comparison.
    Like here, that would also be design decisions. There could even be a setup which is about limited communication for wolves, and that would also be a design decision.

    I think both versions have their merit, but in general (on the overwhelming majority of sites, too), 24/7 tends to be funner for wolves. What I like about night-only is how special it makes D1: scum haven't interacted privately yet at that point. However, considering a significant amount of people throw D1 into the dustbin anyway (which is immensely sad)...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.

  19. ISO #19

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    1. There are currently X users browsing this thread can be useful to help angle-shoot if 24/7 wolf chat exists.
    this can be disabled and we actually did that before but I think people missed it and it has one big advantage - if you know someone else is online it encourages you to stay online too
    I think the agreed upon solution was to have the default for new members be that they are invisible (so it says a member is reading the chat but not their name)

    if the modern consensus is to just remove it then we can do that
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  20. ISO #20

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    this can be disabled and we actually did that before but I think people missed it and it has one big advantage - if you know someone else is online it encourages you to stay online too
    I think the agreed upon solution was to have the default for new members be that they are invisible (so it says a member is reading the chat but not their name)

    if the modern consensus is to just remove it then we can do that
    Don't do that.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  21. ISO #21

  22. ISO #22

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Lag View Post
    One change that we've been discussing making moving forwards is switching to using 24/7 wolf chats as the default on the site as opposed to the night-only chats from the past.

    Anyone who has heard me talk about the topic knows I greatly prefer 24/7 wolf chat over night-only chat, but before I make my case I want to open the floor to the community to discuss the two options first.
    I agree in the preference of 24/7 wolf chat


    Why? Most setups that have it are more challenging for the wolf, plus I rather being able to do rather interesting strategies during the day, talking it over before executing most times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    I feel like I'm watching a horror movie and the protag. group is exploring an old house or something and everything is super quiet, but you know something bad is about to happen. Mafia man is about to come out from behind the basement furnace and gun down varcron right in front of me. And there will be nothing I can do.

  23. ISO #23

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Makes gameplay for both town and scum I think way more interesting, as you can perform really off the wall ideas unlike with night only chat where things can shift during the day and you're back to being headless chickens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    I feel like I'm watching a horror movie and the protag. group is exploring an old house or something and everything is super quiet, but you know something bad is about to happen. Mafia man is about to come out from behind the basement furnace and gun down varcron right in front of me. And there will be nothing I can do.

  24. ISO #24

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    With “only night chat”, the strongest scum teams I was in just made up cues to secretly communicate during the day anyway.

    Like “I will @ everyone but the third person I @ is who I saw my target visit”

    At that point you might as well just give us a 24/7 scum chat.

    Also it’s way more new player friendly to have 24/7 scum chat. I feel like playing your first game ever and roleing scum with no ability to get advice is a fast ticket to somebody never signing again


    Also I feel like you presented the change the wrong way cuz it’s not like hosts are being forced to use it, it’s just changing the default setting
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  25. ISO #25

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus
    Also it’s way more new player friendly to have 24/7 scum chat. I feel like playing your first game ever and roleing scum with no ability to get advice is a fast ticket to somebody never signing again
    That depends I think

    If you have a player who has played the mod before for example (but never FM) they'll understand being thrown in as fresh meat. Plus you can get the scoop and explained everything during the night phase for advice. You just need to get through the first day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    I feel like I'm watching a horror movie and the protag. group is exploring an old house or something and everything is super quiet, but you know something bad is about to happen. Mafia man is about to come out from behind the basement furnace and gun down varcron right in front of me. And there will be nothing I can do.

  26. ISO #26

  27. ISO #27

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    As someone who plays mostly on other sites, and is used to the 24/7 scum I'd say the benefits of 24/7 are:
    - it's much more fun to be scum. You build stronger relationships, you banter more, and, you get to laugh at village more
    - it is much easier as scum. Because of both the stronger relationships and constant communication it's just easier to coordinate...which is the advantage of scum
    - it makes being scum for the first few times easier. You can get coached live and get live feedback

    Given you can rebalanced to favour town I think it is better to have 24/7 chat purely to help ppl learn to scum...and enjoy being scum more

  28. ISO #28

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus View Post
    What is the mod being g referred to?
    The -Mafia- game inside SC2. The predecessor to games like ToS and ToL.

    Yah idk why people call it mod tbh. In SC2 they're called arcade maps, in SC1 they're called UMS maps, in WC3 they're called custom maps. I guess "mod" refers to everything user made in every game ever?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

  29. ISO #29

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus View Post
    - it's much more fun to be scum. You build stronger relationships, you banter more, and, you get to laugh at village more
    This should be the only criteria for all I care. And it's not even a subjective statement because mafiascum have made the research and concluded that statistically there's far fewer replacements in 24/7
    mafia chat games. Though weren't Mafiascum games like a week per game day or something? That's different if so..
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

  30. ISO #30

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    The -Mafia- game inside SC2. The predecessor to games like ToS and ToL.

    Yah idk why people call it mod tbh. In SC2 they're called arcade maps, in SC1 they're called UMS maps, in WC3 they're called custom maps. I guess "mod" refers to everything user made in every game ever?
    Tbh I didn't know any of this history so all very interesting ty

  31. ISO #31

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    This should be the only criteria for all I care. And it's not even a subjective statement because mafiascum have made the research and concluded that statistically there's far fewer replacements in 24/7
    mafia chat games.
    Though weren't Mafiascum games like a week per game day or something? That's different if so..
    Why would this be the case
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  32. ISO #32

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    With “only night chat”, the strongest scum teams I was in just made up cues to secretly communicate during the day anyway.

    Like “I will @ everyone but the third person I @ is who I saw my target visit”

    At that point you might as well just give us a 24/7 scum chat.

    Also it’s way more new player friendly to have 24/7 scum chat. I feel like playing your first game ever and roleing scum with no ability to get advice is a fast ticket to somebody never signing again


    Also I feel like you presented the change the wrong way cuz it’s not like hosts are being forced to use it, it’s just changing the default setting
    What is the "default setting" tho
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  33. ISO #33

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    If you really wanna see if more people are gonna join on-site games if 24/7 mafia chats become the norm, try running a few games like those on-site and see if people stay. Or conduct a survey and just ask a lot of people if they'd consider signing for a game on a different site with night-only chats.

    PERSONALLY, I would join a game with 24/7 chats as readily as any other game so I kinda doubt people care that much
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  34. ISO #34

  35. ISO #35

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Or conduct a survey and just ask a lot of people if they'd consider signing for a game on a different site with night-only chats.
    reply's I got were ranging from wouldn't join night only to wouldn't mind joining. no reply's of preferring nights only, all in range of would mind or wouldn't mind. yah i asked only on 3 communities, but I saw none who didn't see nights only chat as just inferior across the board.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

  36. ISO #36

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    who knows
    popular guess is that night only chat is a miserable experience for mafia by comparison
    Miserable seems too strong a word tbh. I'd play either
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  37. ISO #37

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus View Post
    What is the mod being g referred to?
    The mod as in Starcraft 2's Mafia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    I feel like I'm watching a horror movie and the protag. group is exploring an old house or something and everything is super quiet, but you know something bad is about to happen. Mafia man is about to come out from behind the basement furnace and gun down varcron right in front of me. And there will be nothing I can do.

  38. ISO #38

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    I don't really understand the point of having a 'default.'

    The aspects of 24/7 I do not believe were pointed out is how it allows for stronger puppet shows/coaching upping the overall wolf IQ for the new players. I really like this because wolfing with good wolves really improves newer wolves ability and helps spread strategy.

    It also helps prevent the frustration that is inherent to wolfing. When you have a team mate overly bussing, supporting you, or even just making a play you see as bad its not fun. Being able to talk to them about it removes a lot of that frustration.

    I think consideration should also be given to the abnormal level of complexity this site hosts. Other sites have grown to accept complicated setups but SC2 still is pretty out there and has some unique day game mechanics that matter when considering 24/7 vs day/night.

    As I said in the beginning, I don't see a reason to declare a default at all and it makes more sense to leave it as a balance function. For a parallel it would be like declaring a default night cycle and requiring reasoning to do anything else. I just do not see what that accomplishes.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.

  39. ISO #39

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I don't really understand the point of having a 'default.'

    The aspects of 24/7 I do not believe were pointed out is how it allows for stronger puppet shows/coaching upping the overall wolf IQ for the new players. I really like this because wolfing with good wolves really improves newer wolves ability and helps spread strategy.

    It also helps prevent the frustration that is inherent to wolfing. When you have a team mate overly bussing, supporting you, or even just making a play you see as bad its not fun. Being able to talk to them about it removes a lot of that frustration.

    I think consideration should also be given to the abnormal level of complexity this site hosts. Other sites have grown to accept complicated setups but SC2 still is pretty out there and has some unique day game mechanics that matter when considering 24/7 vs day/night.

    As I said in the beginning, I don't see a reason to declare a default at all and it makes more sense to leave it as a balance function. For a parallel it would be like declaring a default night cycle and requiring reasoning to do anything else. I just do not see what that accomplishes.
    I THINK the idea is that it would attract more people from other sites, since apparently on these 'other sites' 24/7 chats are the norm.
    Last edited by Oberon; April 19th, 2022 at 03:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  40. ISO #40

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    I think that a better idea, since such a default cannot exist (unless you enforce it as a general site rule, and only allow night chats as an exception), is to ask people to start making setups that include 24/7 chats in case new people show up who might hate night chats. I think the latter is perfectly reasonable and hence I believe that the discussion can stop here, unless you're talking about restricting ladder games to solely 24/7 chats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  41. ISO #41

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    I'm now utterly confused about what you guys want. I can't tell if you want to change this to improve balance or if you want people used to 24/7 to stay
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  42. ISO #42

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I THINK the idea is that it would attract more people from other sites, since apparently on these 'other sites' 24/7 chats are the norm.
    On the most basic level playing games is about having fun. Its usually more fun for a wolf team to have 24/7 on multiple levels but balance is also a big requirement.

    If the goal is to bring people here I think a separate conversation should be held about what people consider fun and what this sites 'brand' of fun is.
    I like complexity on the mechanical side that enables and drives conversation while allowing for lies, gambits, deception, and analysis.
    I dislike functions that remove analysis, games that do not have enough action to maintain interest/conversation or mechanics that can not be countered by play.

    At its core I believe the main thing that makes games fun is people being able to influence how they do. At some point I made a bunch of ramblings on some core concepts for setup designing I might try to dig up but thats a bit of it off the top of my head. Also why someday I would like to make something that quantifys a sort of point value for individual measurement removing the social loafing issue that drags some games down.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.

  43. ISO #43

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    On the most basic level playing games is about having fun. Its usually more fun for a wolf team to have 24/7 on multiple levels but balance is also a big requirement.

    If the goal is to bring people here I think a separate conversation should be held about what people consider fun and what this sites 'brand' of fun is.
    I like complexity on the mechanical side that enables and drives conversation while allowing for lies, gambits, deception, and analysis.
    I dislike functions that remove analysis, games that do not have enough action to maintain interest/conversation or mechanics that can not be countered by play.

    At its core I believe the main thing that makes games fun is people being able to influence how they do. At some point I made a bunch of ramblings on some core concepts for setup designing I might try to dig up but thats a bit of it off the top of my head. Also why someday I would like to make something that quantifys a sort of point value for individual measurement removing the social loafing issue that drags some games down.
    I agree with your point. It seems to me that we should also ask ourselves whether we find night chats more fun than 24/7; we don't have to change ourselves, and neither do they, necessarily, unless we really want more people to come here.

    Do we want more people coming here? Perhaps, perhaps not. More is not necessarily better if it makes games less fun, but it is also true I hardly see having only 24/7 chats from now on as being detrimental in and of itself.

    I personally dislike complexity on the mechanical side as I feel it tends to detract from the game (but then again I'm a person who gets obsessed with all the mechanical possibilities, and not everyone is like me).
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  44. ISO #44

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    The pros of 24/7 chat vs night-only chat can be largely grouped into two overarching categories, pretty much all of these points have already been stated by various members (thank you!), but to summarize them:

    Player Enjoyment
    - 24/7 wolf chat almost always creates a more enjoyable experience for the wolf team.
    - It especially makes the new player experience for players that rand wolf much more enjoyable as they're able to receive feedback and advice throughout the day rather than just being thrown in the deep-end.
    - All across the FM-sphere sites have switched to 24/7 wolf-chat as a symptom of the fact that it's much more enjoyable.
    - It's such a big difference even that some players will flat out refuse to sign for games that are night-only chat.

    Elevates the Level of Wolf Play
    - The constant communication allows for wolves to discuss and execute more advanced strategies.
    - It allows for new wolves to be coached by more experienced wolves, elevating their play to a level much greater than they would have otherwise have had without the feedback.
    - It also allows for players to learn from more experienced wolves, elevating the site-wide level of wolf play over time as players are better able to learn strategies from each other in real time.
    - As wolf play is elevated, it also opens up new possibilities for players to read into player interactions and catch wolves adding more strategic depth to the game
    - Wolf chat is pretty undeniably a buff to the wolves, so to compensate, more town-sided setups can be introduced to counter balance this - creating new challenges for all players as they enter each setup


    Attracting new players to the site isn't even the primary appeal of 24/7 chat. And while such a change will make bringing in off-site players easier, the biggest reason it actually makes it easier is because it's generally much more fun for the wolves and people want to play in fun games; getting people to sign for fun setups is infinitely easier than the alternative!


    So what do I mean when I say "making 24/7 chat the default?"

    Well, I pretty much mean just that - I believe that when approaching approaching setup creation and hosting the default assumption should be that wolves will have 24/7 chat, for all the previously stated reasons. And the decision to not have 24/7 chat I believe should be done as a deliberate design decision by the setup creator and not done as a balance decision.

    The difference between the two can be subtle, but it is an important distinction. A design decision has the setup made around said decision in mind. Deathworlds gave a very good example earlier of having a multiball setup where one faction is larger with less powerful roles, but night-only chat, while another faction is smaller with more powerful roles and a 24/7 chat. That example of asymmetric design is a very clear and effective design choice centered around the mechanic. In contrast a setup which is deemed too wolf-sided being balanced by simply removing 24/7 chat is not how I think setup balance should be approached as it's removing a very fun, high QoL feature in the name of balance.

    The purpose of balance is that imbalance tends to be not fun, so pursuing balance is merely a means to the end of making the setup more enjoyable. Therefore changes which sacrifice player enjoyment in the name of balance I believe are counterproductive.


    So why is this discussion even necessary?

    There have been 17 FM setups put into the queue since I first got into FM on this site. Some of them were canceled, one of them never started, but they all contribute to the picture of the types of setups we run here.

    The setups were:

    Matrix6
    Last Hope
    Lazy
    All Stars
    Wilder Wilder Wastelander
    Blackflag Nightess
    Loony Toon World*
    Gravity Falls
    Murder in the Mid-Atlantic
    Once Upon a Town in the West
    Bisected Souls
    Politico II
    Play at Your Own Risk
    Deck Mafia #008
    KRC: M-FM edition

    Election Day 2.0
    American Flag Nightless
    Nightless Setups
    No Full Factional Chat at All
    Night-Only Chat
    Only 1 Wolf
    Non-Standard Chat Mechanics
    24/7 Chat

    *I'm actually not positive about this one, if someone knows for sure they should correct me!


    So of the last 17 FM setups, 13 of them were eligible for 24/7 chat (not nightless, more than 1 wolf) but only 2 of them had it. And one of those games was a cross-community game with different standards than usual for this site, making the numbers more like 1/12 rather than 2/13!



    So similar to how the site has moved away from Majority only to a Plurality or Plurality + Majority as the default elimination types. I'm also hoping that by starting this discussion on wolf chat we can move towards having 24/7 wolf chat be the default.


    Does that means 24/7 wolf chat is banned or won't be allowed? Absolutely not!

    A setup with specific asymmetric design can have night-only chat
    A throwback re-run of a past setup can have night-only chat
    A setup that's aiming to emulate the mod can have night-only chat

    There a plenty of cases where using night-only chat for wolves I think is perfectly valid and we don't seek to restrict hosts rights here. But we also want to encourage hosts to design setups to maximize the enjoyment of their players and the health of the site. And that is why I believe setup design should be approached from the setup of "assume 24/7 wolf chat, or have a specific design reason for not including it."

  45. ISO #45

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    On the topic of preserving the brand of games that Sc2Mafia runs - I don't think night-only chat is necessary. Or even really a part of that brand.

    When I think of "what makes Sc2 Mafia games unique?" Night-only chat isn't even something that comes to mind.


    Where I think Sc2Mafia games shine is that so many of the setups here fundamentally question some core mechanic of FM while doing so in a coherent, cohesive way.


    We don't just run role madness games where the host pulls up a bunch of esoteric role modifiers and then sticks them onto obscure roles they found on this list and then calls it a day. And while I've played in and had lots of fun in several games like that - that's not the type of game we run here.

    The games we run here ask questions like



    And then the setup is formed around that key concept to make a fun cohesive setup. (With a few more vanilla setups thrown in between for a change of pace)

    And I think that brand of FM is what makes the games on Sc2Mafia so great.

  46. ISO #46

  47. ISO #47

  48. ISO #48

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    totally 100% aha what he said
    Literally this lol. And to add something because now I feel cheap: scumchats that aren't 24/7 absolutely can contribute to setups that are "asking questions" such as the ones Lag linked; setups centered around communication and nuances in communication are a perfect example of this.

    And I'm totally not repeating what everyone said already but balance is a means to attain fun, not the end goal, no matter how important the means can be.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus View Post
    BTW if you want more players the best way is more personal connections & quality of the ux and less game set up.

    There's a reason MU is doing so well, and there's a reason certain players do better in filling games. I came here for Lag and joined games because of Lag.
    Yes, we know Lag is cool

    That doesn't mean discussions about setups aren't fun, interesting, or productive, though! I really like what I've seen in this thread. Part of the fun in playing Mafia is being a game theory nerd, after all, just like how playing with new people is part of it!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.

  49. ISO #49

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Do we want more people coming here? Perhaps, perhaps not. More is not necessarily better if it makes games less fun, but it is also true I hardly see having only 24/7 chats from now on as being detrimental in and of itself.
    I would say more people would be a good thing. I think the leadership could handle growth without it becoming about them instead of the players as I have seen in other communities but the idea of sharing knowledge in how to play the game as well as creating fun experiences for people to enjoy is a beautiful thing.

    This community has struggled in having good relationships with other communities. We basically gave birth to Town of Salem but alienated them at every turn under some of the older leadership. We tried to do some cross community work with MU but they were only interested in us playing games there and never held up their end. Maybe moving forward things will be different.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.

  50. ISO #50

    Re: 24/7 Wolf Chat vs Night-Only Wolf Chat

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorZeus View Post
    BTW if you want more players the best way is more personal connections & quality of the ux and less game set up.

    There's a reason MU is doing so well, and there's a reason certain players do better in filling games. I came here for Lag and joined games because of Lag.
    Yah I myself have left SC2Mafia and Skwirl discords and not really joining any games anymore.
    Similarly, I came to FM from the mod for MM, Oberon came here for Distorted, lots of older players came for SuperJack.

    After years and years of pondering on this question, your comment shines the truest of them all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.
    My spirit animal: https://youtu.be/fNugZU61EXI

 

 

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