S-FM 341: American Flag Nightless

[Oberon]

lol!
tu parlez francais?

Nope not a word

[Marshmallow Marshall]

MM is from the French Riviera in Marseille and therefore likely engages in drug trafficking which makes him a GANGSTER!
We hang gangsters!
Fortunately we only need to ask him to surrender because he is French.

There, I broke the rules.

No u lol

lol!
tu parlez francais?

Oui ^^ French is my first language

Unfortunately, BRITISH IMPERIALISTS are carrying on the Hundred Years' War and force us to speak English on forums because they don't understand French. *Angry baguette noises*

[Oberon]

@Marshmallow Marshall it actually surprises me you missed that crucial point are you scum yourself?

This is actually a serious point @Marshmallow Marshall , waiting for you to respond

[oliverz144]

lol.
reads time!
town
oberon
me
tl
mm
n
channel
evry1 else
sl
kek

[MartinGG99]

[ vote]theoneceko[/vote]
^Avoid triggering maj early; only 5 votes to hammer

I have the impression that possibly shooting early would've occurred to both alignments since this game is likely fundamentally about deciding at some point whether a shooter was mafia or town

simply because since mafia also have day-shots and therefore they have the capacity to knock us down into a position we can't deal with (thus ending the game) if we aren't careful

So I really don't see this as clearing in any way even if there's a WIFOM argument to be made about using a mafia shot

There's also the issue of the game needing hammers to yeet someone via vote

Presuming no mafia were to vote then at the moment we need 5 out of 6 remaining towns to vote the same person (This problem is unlikely to occur early game, but I would not be surprised if mafia tried to "naturally" orchestrate a situation about it later on to force-out town shots)

[oliverz144]

1ghost-oberon
1guest-???
come out of your shallow shadows, you unknown face

[Oberon]

[ vote]theoneceko[/vote]
^Avoid triggering maj early; only 5 votes to hammer

I have the impression that possibly shooting early would've occurred to both alignments since this game is likely fundamentally about deciding at some point whether a shooter was mafia or town

simply because since mafia also have day-shots and therefore they have the capacity to knock us down into a position we can't deal with (thus ending the game) if we aren't careful

So I really don't see this as clearing in any way even if there's a WIFOM argument to be made about using a mafia shot

There's also the issue of the game needing hammers to yeet someone via vote

Presuming no mafia were to vote then at the moment we need 5 out of 6 remaining towns to vote the same person (This problem is unlikely to occur early game, but I would not be surprised if mafia tried to "naturally" orchestrate a situation about it later on to force-out town shots)

It definitely occurred to me

[MartinGG99]

I also want to take a wild guess and say that Oberon is sus for making a series of short posts but then all the sudden making a larger post about all the possibilities

feels a bit potentially LAMIST to me

[theoneceko]

Considering ceko, would you even be surprised?

lmfao

[theoneceko]

@Efekannn02 I Will Use The Regular Way Of Finding Evils And Towns And Not The Efekannn02 Way Of Finding The Evils And Idiots

[Marshmallow Marshall]

This is actually a serious point @Marshmallow Marshall , waiting for you to respond

I have already responded

There is a difference between "town can be wrong" and "town shoots a player who has never had the chance to speak". Being wrong is normal, but the latter arguably falls under disciplinary actions lol.

[oliverz144]

-vote oliverz144

martin right. hammering? NO!

[Oberon]

I also want to take a wild guess and say that Oberon is sus for making a series of short posts but then all the sudden making a larger post about all the possibilities

feels a bit potentially LAMIST to me

That sequence is entirely random from my perspective, I just felt like making short posts and then felt like making a long post. :P

[MartinGG99]

I also want to take a wild guess and say that Oberon is sus for making a series of short posts but then all the sudden making a larger post about all the possibilities and then immediately retuning to that short-post format

feels a bit potentially LAMIST to me

ebwop in bold

I guess I should also clarify to Channel Miner that

ebwop = edit by way of post (You quote the previous post then edit the quote to show the edit you would have made)

LAMIST = "Look at me, I'm So Town"

WIFOM = refers to the Wine In Front Of Me

[oliverz144]

-vote oliverz144

martin right. hammering? NO!

EY
you can unvote ceko but im not ur vote trash pile wtf

[Marshmallow Marshall]

[ vote]theoneceko[/vote]
^Avoid triggering maj early; only 5 votes to hammer

agreed

I have the impression that possibly shooting early would've occurred to both alignments since this game is likely fundamentally about deciding at some point whether a shooter was mafia or town

Sure, but not shooting someone who has not spoken. It minimizes the amount of information you can obtain from one's death.

simply because since mafia also have day-shots and therefore they have the capacity to knock us down into a position we can't deal with (thus ending the game) if we aren't careful

So I really don't see this as clearing in any way even if there's a WIFOM argument to be made about using a mafia shot

There's also the issue of the game needing hammers to yeet someone via vote

Presuming no mafia were to vote then at the moment we need 5 out of 6 remaining towns to vote the same person (This problem is unlikely to occur early game, but I would not be surprised if mafia tried to "naturally" orchestrate a situation about it later on to force-out town shots)

Do you mean you think Ceko is town because he's too easy to push?

[MartinGG99]

EY
you can unvote ceko but im not ur vote trash pile wtf

your co-pilot in that plane must be so rude

[theoneceko]

I thought this was not a serious game, like the Wild Wild West. Please shoot me!

UNU

[Oberon]

There is a difference between "town can be wrong" and "town shoots a player who has never had the chance to speak". Being wrong is normal, but the latter arguably falls under disciplinary actions lol.

This is a stronger argument than the one I laid out previously and you agreed with that one but not this one, WHY?
I gave you an example of town acting quite anti-town

[oliverz144]

also where did kek go again? and all others?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I also want to take a wild guess and say that Oberon is sus for making a series of short posts but then all the sudden making a larger post about all the possibilities

feels a bit potentially LAMIST to me

The fact he wanted to elaborate so much on it could be a nice way to gain towncred in a normal game. However, considering this is anything but a normal game and he could just have made this devolve into chaos instead of ordering things, I quite like what he has done. He also lowkey tried to get a read on me, which felt good-ish

[theoneceko]

UWOWU HEWO !!!!

[oliverz144]

your co-pilot in that plane must be so rude

?? plane??

[MartinGG99]

Sure, but not shooting someone who has not spoken. It minimizes the amount of information you can obtain from one's death.



Do you mean you think Ceko is town because he's too easy to push?

Re: both of these

What I more specifically mean is that I think Ceko should die at some point in the game because the thought of that possibly occurring (either by their own action or someone else's) would've occurred to just about everyone in this game. It did for me when reading the setup. This points to the whole thing being slightly NAI, and considering it has semi-NAI value and yet is negative utility I have the inclination that while it may be a bit NAI it does lean in favor of being done by mafia rather than town. Because if town knew it was going to be a bit NAI or not advance the game at all, I feel like they would do something about that or add some sort of spin to it.

[MartinGG99]

?? plane??

your avatar lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

your co-pilot in that plane must be so rude

LOL

I thought this was not a serious game, like the Wild Wild West. Please shoot me!

UNU

...

What are your reads? How do you read the fact we're piling on you at the moment? Are we a bunch of wolves? Are we justified in thinking you're scum? Are we right? Are we beautiful rainbow cats?

This is a stronger argument than the one I laid out previously and you agreed with that one but not this one, WHY?
I gave you an example of town acting quite anti-town

What? I don't think one can be much more anti-town than Ceko at the beginning of D1.

[oliverz144]

I thought this was not a serious game, like the Wild Wild West. Please shoot me!

UNU

you killed the fastest horse in the ranch and now complain about speed issues?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Re: both of these

What I more specifically mean is that I think Ceko should die at some point in the game because the thought of that possibly occurring (either by their own action or someone else's) would've occurred to just about everyone in this game. It did for me when reading the setup. This points to the whole thing being slightly NAI, and considering it has semi-NAI value and yet is negative utility I have the inclination that while it may be a bit NAI it does lean in favor of being done by mafia rather than town. Because if town knew it was going to be a bit NAI or not advance the game at all, I feel like they would do something about that or add some sort of spin to it.

Am I stupid or is this post obscure lol

[MartinGG99]

oh and for channel miner's sake

NAI = Non/Not Alignment Indicative

Meaning someone thinks something doesn't really indicate or show someone's alignment

[Oberon]

Re: both of these

What I more specifically mean is that I think Ceko should die at some point in the game because the thought of that possibly occurring (either by their own action or someone else's) would've occurred to just about everyone in this game. It did for me when reading the setup. This points to the whole thing being slightly NAI, and considering it has semi-NAI value and yet is negative utility I have the inclination that while it may be a bit NAI it does lean in favor of being done by mafia rather than town. Because if town knew it was going to be a bit NAI or not advance the game at all, I feel like they would do something about that or add some sort of spin to it.

It's a bit early to draw a conclusion like that no? We're 75 posts in

As an aside I can see Mafia defending ceko but I can also see them just bussing him (think the latter is more likely, I would bus in this situation).

[Marshmallow Marshall]

It's a bit early to draw a conclusion like that no? We're 75 posts in

As an aside I can see Mafia defending ceko but I can also see them just bussing him (think the latter is more likely, I would bus in this situation).

I would 100 % bus in this situation as well. So is it townier to defend ceko

[Oberon]

Also Town does anti-town things and if ceko just decided to troll he most definitely didn't ask himself the question of "how can I make this more pro-town"

[MartinGG99]

Am I stupid or is this post obscure lol

its a bit complicated I guess, so I'll try to simplify it into a generalization

but basically if you end up doing a thing which

1) Negative utility of some form/degree
2) Is an obvious possible action for either alignment

Given #2, this is something that likely is NAI....if it weren't for #1. Which means if you don't really do anything to accommodate #1, it ends up not being NAI and therefore pointing to a more likely story where someone did the action because of #1.

There's the whole WIFOM layer to this, but I am disregarding it because if the WIFOM argument of "mafia wouldn't use their shots" were so strong it would not surprise me if a mafia risked that early on. Especially if it meant killing Lag.

[oliverz144]

your avatar lol

hmm ok but what co-pilot?

[Oberon]

I would 100 % bus in this situation as well. So is it townier to defend ceko

If I wasn't the one defending him I would say no but in my case, I am trying to win this game, I do not like how people pretend that if they lost because of a troll then they didn't really lose, that's just admitting you weren't smart enough to figure out they were trolling. Trolling is unfortunately a part of this game lol

I have been the scum white knighting a Townie before, and normally it's really obvious when that happens, but then again I was playing the mod when it was "obvious" so maybe I've gotten better at it + maybe others are better at it too so it wouldn't be too obvious

[Oberon]

its a bit complicated I guess, so I'll try to simplify it into a generalization

but basically if you end up doing a thing which

1) Negative utility of some form/degree
2) Is an obvious possible action for either alignment

Given #2, this is something that likely is NAI....if it weren't for #1. Which means if you don't really do anything to accommodate #1, it ends up not being NAI and therefore pointing to a more likely story where someone did the action because of #1.

There's the whole WIFOM layer to this, but I am disregarding it because if the WIFOM argument of "mafia wouldn't use their shots" were so strong it would not surprise me if a mafia risked that early on. Especially if it meant killing Lag.

Let me ask you something, do you always think about the utility of something before doing it? I do not, not when I play this game lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

its a bit complicated I guess, so I'll try to simplify it into a generalization

but basically if you end up doing a thing which

1) Negative utility of some form/degree
2) Is an obvious possible action for either alignment

Given #2, this is something that likely is NAI....if it weren't for #1. Which means if you don't really do anything to accommodate #1, it ends up not being NAI and therefore pointing to a more likely story where someone did the action because of #1.

There's the whole WIFOM layer to this, but I am disregarding it because if the WIFOM argument of "mafia wouldn't use their shots" were so strong it would not surprise me if a mafia risked that early on. Especially if it meant killing Lag.

In such a case, the action just translates to "bad play", right? I feel like saying "bad play = NAI" is wrong, though, because scum can very well play "bad" on purpose to get away with the "too scummy to be scum" defense.

hmm ok but what co-pilot?

it was just a joke xD
And it was funny
but it doesn't matter much

[MartinGG99]

Let me ask you something, do you always think about the utility of something before doing it? I do not, not when I play this game lol

yeah

I realize there are people who don't quite do that but tbh

I've seen so many different perspectives that if I actually tried imagining them all I in a game full of players I didn't know then i would end up going "uuuuuhhhh-errrrreeeeuuuuuugggghhhhhh...." just because there would always be a perspective justifying one thing or the other

so instead of actually doing largely nothing with people who I don't know then I figure its probably better and more effective to stick to my own philosophy and apply it even if its potentially wrong, except for cases when I actually know people and are familiar with them

[Oberon]

More thoughts:

I thought of pressuring Martin because his reads didn't really make sense to me (how can it occur to both alignments to "hammer" early? when I said it occurred to me, it only occurred to me to day kill ceko at the very start of d2. I most definitely did not want to day kill on d1).

I feel like his reads are somewhat made up IMO. He also seems to be changing his explanation every post. I do not like that lol

Like who thinks about the utility of an action before deciding they will be doing it?
Town certainly doesn't go into these detailed analyses of what the optimal play is, with utility/NAI stuff and whatnot lol. It feels like he's trying to prove ceko is Mafia, which is absurd because you cannot prove anything in this game, and it feels "scummy".

-vote MartinGG99

[MartinGG99]

In such a case, the action just translates to "bad play", right? I feel like saying "bad play = NAI" is wrong, though, because scum can very well play "bad" on purpose to get away with the "too scummy to be scum" defense.

No, I mean, it's not NAI because it's bad play and the badness / negative utility of it is obvious.

If someone accommodated it with making it into contextually decent play or good play then it would be more NAI imo.

[MartinGG99]

Like who thinks about the utility of an action before deciding they will be doing it?

this specific quote reads like that one meme about people lying on the internet

[DoctorZeus]

Hullo

[MartinGG99]

Found it

[Marshmallow Marshall]

More thoughts:

I thought of pressuring Martin because his reads didn't really make sense to me (how can it occur to both alignments to "hammer" early? when I said it occurred to me, it only occurred to me to day kill ceko at the very start of d2. I most definitely did not want to day kill on d1).

I feel like his reads are somewhat made up IMO. He also seems to be changing his explanation every post. I do not like that lol

Like who thinks about the utility of an action before deciding they will be doing it?
Town certainly doesn't go into these detailed analyses of what the optimal play is, with utility/NAI stuff and whatnot lol. It feels like he's trying to prove ceko is Mafia, which is absurd because you cannot prove anything in this game, and it feels "scummy".

-vote MartinGG99

I feel like I'm mean if I say Martin's posts look like word salad to me, but that is really how I see things ;-; I don't entirely understand his point. However, trying to rationally come to a conclusion is fine and is actually what we should do, so I'm not sure your thought process works?

[DoctorZeus]

Sup ppl I know

We always kill gecko todya

-vote theoneceko

[DoctorZeus]

My mobile cuts off the bottom of posts

Pain

[Oberon]

That is true, but this game isn't mechanical. Like you can't just use math to progress your way through the game. I think you're just using math cuz it's easier than getting an actual read on a player (as Mafia, which is hard to do). Like every situation is different and therefore the actual utility of an action is always different from that indicated by the numbers.

[Oberon]

That is true, but this game isn't mechanical. Like you can't just use math to progress your way through the game. I think you're just using math cuz it's easier than getting an actual read on a player (as Mafia, which is hard to do). Like every situation is different and therefore the actual utility of an action is always different from that indicated by the numbers.

@Marshmallow Marshall this also serves as an answer to your previous post

[MartinGG99]

Anyways, I gotta go disappear for the next 24 hours or so. I might be able to check-in later, but its uncertain.

I do plan to engage with Oberon more, but I'm not quite sure of how yet.

[MartinGG99]

Errr "earlier" not "later"