S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

[PQRnHack]

Paopan's critical analysis of my slot was not only succinct, but it was empirically true and very cool.

Lock town confirmed! Made me laugh lmao

[NotPaopan]

[quote compressed to avoid a wall of quoted text]
Nothing on Bradland? Sussy!

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/misc....posted&t=49637
Yeah, I'm also confused. There's a bradland on the signups but I don't see any bradland on this other ISO link

Paopan's critical analysis of my slot was not only succinct, but it was empirically true and very cool.

That's what I do

PQ is probably town as I've said.

So far he tried a bus mechanic which I recognized as one of his scum play. But I didn't remember he did this when he was in town in our game. That's my current PoV but can you elaborate how PQ is town on your view? We currently have mixed opinions about PQ

Gikkle I haven't really analyzed at all. My instinct is that all he has done so far is NAI; seems fairly standard Gikkle to me and not really >rand one way or another.

Mmmm mmm. Might be one of the reasons why I always scum read Gikkle. But okay. I'll accept it for now.

*Replies in quote marked red

[PQRnHack]

*answered in read inside the quote. I'm too lazy to fix it.

I have nothing further, your honor. It is good to see you upping your game, I just hoping it is not for scummy reasons

[hollowkatt]

Please elaborate on this fragment: "... PQR being a policy push ..."

I think I rebuilt the quote chain correctly. I hate forums that don't quote the nested quotes
anyways

I still think that Paopan is best dead for town regardless of his alignment, so i'm always fine with him being a train on D1.

so a policy chop. can you explain why?

IMO he's 50% fluff and 50% BS gut reads. But then again maybe he fooled me that bad ?

that seems like an incredibad reason to policy someone. BS gut reads aren't necessarily bad yeah?
like if you'd said he's a troll and doesn't play well to his randed alignment then sure, policy is fine and probably desired, but "he's fluffy and his reads are gut" is like half the known mafia playing universe

This sticks in my mind b/c players talking about policy makes me take notice b/c it's super easy to hide agenda behind policy.
There were more things that you said with regards to yourself and Paopan that I'm not quoting here but were along the same things. Given that you posted them I'm not sure you want me quoting them here?

Anyways, Martin, if he is a wolf here, reads the posts about policy and LHF players and shuts his mouth. He doesn't go out of his way to pass out a town read to a player that can potentially be wagoned for really shady reasons because that cuts down on his potential chops that he needs to win the game, yeah?

It's not a great clear b/c it's super early in the game and this type of read works better the later it goes because shutting off chops you need to get is dumber and dumber as the game gets closer to completion, but it's a read I'm comfortable making at the moment.

[deathworlds]

Scum can chat right now, one of the rules says they have a 24/7 chat.
If we start making our own pods we risk giving information to scum that we want to share with people that are only town.
I don't think there's many timelines out there where sharing information privately is more beneficial to town than openly sharing it.

It doesn't seem like there's last wills or death notes, which is unfortunate.

[PQRnHack]

So far he tried a bus mechanic which I recognized as one of his scum play. But I didn't remember he did this when he was in town in our game. That's my current PoV but can you elaborate how PQ is town on your view? We currently have mixed opinions about PQ

[quote above is copy-pasted cuz nested quotes no-worky, formatting may be off]

Please tell me about my attempted bus mechanic.

[PQRnHack]

I think I rebuilt the quote chain correctly. I hate forums that don't quote the nested quotes
anyways

lmao, see my post below!

[hollowkatt]

[B][SIZE=3]
Hollowkatt
Heya. Nice meeting you! Are you new to FM or only just new to this site?
Give this lamb some info about your experience on this game


Now that I have placed my trap cards. I will end my turn

1. I'm not by any stretch of the imagination new to forum mafia. I'm here b/c Guillo is hosting Deck 008 here and it's Lags home site and Lag is all kinds of kick-ass so I decided to play
2. Your colors burn my eyes

I've played on MafiaCafe, MafiaUniverse, MafiaTheSyndicate, GoodGamery, MiseTings, with most of my games being on GoodGamery, MiseTings, and MafiaUniverse.

[hollowkatt]

I think you've confused PQR and Paopan.

I don't think anyone said PQR was a policy chop.

PQR was talking about themselves being commonly viewed as LHF in relation to Paopan being a policy push for some people and wondering why themselves wouldn't also be a policy/LHF push. It's not specifically that PQR is policy, it's their comments regarding LHF and Paopan policy combined with you giving them a town read.

[Seanzie]

Fair enough, as this is my first Deck game, I am not sure how frequent private chats are, guess we'll see from NA. I am exiting out of a game that had like 7 lol.

I am in support of any reasonable derivative/variation of what you suggested, but let's hear more thoughts, and, frankly, I need to do some thinking to see if I can come up with something better. Good to have you on my team BTW (90% - we have had cases where I got fooled because scum revealed town-optimal strategies like this and then proceeded to take control). Whatever we end up on, you should recuse yourself from being a primary decision-maker. But I think you've already done that by suggesting we utilize votes. But let's also make sure scum do not mess us up by swinging the votes, which would, in turn, alter our strategy for ITA directly as a consequence of their vote alternations. So keep an eye on that and remember to pay.


Kinda forgot? Sussy! I agree about town-chosen picks, but how good are those picks going to be D1? Please do pay me a visit n1. Welcome to the madness.

Yeah reading people on play is important, but how solid is that analysis on D1 compared to later days? EOT

One of the facets of my plan is that no one person is making decisions, again the point is to remove agency regarding everything except votes. So yes, if we follow my plan, I am recusing myself (and everyone else) from being a primary decision maker.

I think you're probably overestimating the strength of the average investigative card. Cards that can confirm someone's alignment count as 7 cards, meaning it is the only card you can bring. More common are things like "tracker", which can give some info, but unless you're really lucky and track the NK, it won't be super AI, and even then it could be someone else having just targeted the NK.

I find my D1 reads to be quite good, and often wish I would have just stuck with them in later days after seeing the rand. I know many other players share this sentiment. Plus, seeing flips can improve the reads, and more TKs is pretty much always better.

[NotPaopan]

The fact that Pao has a bunch of people he does not know (in terms of having played with) but gives like 1 or 2 comments on each and every one of them with an occasional yet unique question without seemingly focusing on one player or another

seems at best odds with how I do or approach things as town or at worst an appeasing wolf doing low-depth interactions

Not really. I am focused on loldebite and pq right now.

On the other hand, this lobby has a lot of strong players that I am still not familiar with. In which I believe I should adapt my plays in order to match them. But then again, I don't want to forget the essence that made Paopan what he is today.

But somewhat I understand @PQ though. People like me or him are an easy lynch and scums would want to press us because of it.

[PQRnHack]

I think I rebuilt the quote chain correctly. I hate forums that don't quote the nested quotes
anyways



This sticks in my mind b/c players talking about policy makes me take notice b/c it's super easy to hide agenda behind policy.
There were more things that you said with regards to yourself and Paopan that I'm not quoting here but were along the same things. Given that you posted them I'm not sure you want me quoting them here?

Anyways, Martin, if he is a wolf here, reads the posts about policy and LHF players and shuts his mouth. He doesn't go out of his way to pass out a town read to a player that can potentially be wagoned for really shady reasons because that cuts down on his potential chops that he needs to win the game, yeah?

It's not a great clear b/c it's super early in the game and this type of read works better the later it goes because shutting off chops you need to get is dumber and dumber as the game gets closer to completion, but it's a read I'm comfortable making at the moment.

It is rare that I can identify townies D1, glad to have you on our team. If you are scum, then well done.
@Takumi Fujiwara I am trying to apply a certain lesson you showed me to being a good town player Can you tell me what it is? It's a quiz.

Your expression of doubt around Martin is very good. ++ pts

[deathworlds]

Oh my god can people stop using cringe colors?

[MartinGG99]

*Replies in quote marked red

What do you mean by bus mechanic?

There really isn't much to elaborate on; its mostly my stated reason and I don't really see why PQR could be >rand scum. Is there a post by him that pings you as being particularly scummy or unlikely to be made by town?

[PQRnHack]

Scum can chat right now, one of the rules says they have a 24/7 chat.
If we start making our own pods we risk giving information to scum that we want to share with people that are only town.
I don't think there's many timelines out there where sharing information privately is more beneficial to town than openly sharing it.

It doesn't seem like there's last wills or death notes, which is unfortunate.

++ townpts
Let's generate ideas on our own for a while and regroup closer to decision time.

Indeed, there are no last wills.

[NotPaopan]

[quote above is copy-pasted cuz nested quotes no-worky, formatting may be off]

Please tell me about my attempted bus mechanic.

Sorry. I am still in the process of using the common mafia terms.
What I meant was buddying* not bussing mechanics.
As I have explained also before.

[PQRnHack]

PQR was talking about themselves being commonly viewed as LHF in relation to Paopan being a policy push for some people and wondering why themselves wouldn't also be a policy/LHF push. It's not specifically that PQR is policy, it's their comments regarding LHF and Paopan policy combined with you giving them a town read.

Good answer.

[PQRnHack]

But somewhat I understand @PQ though. People like me or him are an easy lynch and scums would want to press us because of it.

Tell me why scum would want to press one of us as opposed to a player perceived(by them) as stronger than us?

[deathworlds]

On the other hand, this lobby has a lot of strong players that I am still not familiar with. In which I believe I should adapt my plays in order to match them. But then again, I don't want to forget the essence that made Paopan what he is today.

If it helps at all my usual meta is to chill d1 and do a bit of setup speculation until I find someone I focus on, usually tunnel, and end up mislynching.

[hollowkatt]

Care to explain why I'm "obvtown"? I mean I am, but I also have TMI on myself... hmm...

I've wolfed with you before and have never seen you be this up front trying to lead the thread and organize how things ought to be going. I've also been in enough mashes to know when someone is trying to make the most sense and most logical path for utilizing ITAs to get the maximum number of "good shots" vs letting shooters just kinda go all willy-nilly.

So yeah, it's basically the whole shots thing. If you're a wolf here it's advantageous to just let town do whatever they want to do instead of trying to organize when/where to be shooting. You can't control who's going to be leading wagons when the time for shots comes, so if you're advocating a plan where we're shooting at wagon leaders that can 100% backfire on you if you're wolfing here. Like if a packmate has a bad entry or bad series of posts and gets wagoned before the shots time that's a bummer for you/your pack.

[deathworlds]

I'm all for the plan of organized shootings by the way, saves me the brain power of having to decide how to spend my shot

[hollowkatt]

My comments regarding you are truthful regardless of alignment. Integrity is important to me. Why is the burden on me to change your mind, when your only reason for scum-leaning me seems to be that I am capable of pocketing you via my defense of you as I did that one game where i was scum and you were town? You also know very well that you won as Scum against Town~me when I expressed similar thoughts that there was no solid lead to lynch you. You cannot cherry pick one case over the other and produce a scum-leaning assessment of me when you are well aware that I have expressed similar thoughts from either alignment.

But now you have some things to change my mind:
1. What prompted you to post the 13-player readslist this early?
2. You seem to view me as scum-lean based on one of several past games in which I kicked your butt. You also commented to deathworlds that they must have gotten fooled by scum~MM in the past and, perhaps, that is why they voted MM. It is silly to assume that Town players (except, maybe, you) would vote based on past losses. You do know that as town, we must set aside prejudice and bias and play to win THIS game, right?
3. Just so other people don't read much into this, I believe you referred to SB16 as "fellow" scum because you (scum)guys spanked me and Town in Politico. Correct me if I am wrong, and we have ourselves a two-fer

ily you're my new best friend

[PQRnHack]

Sorry. I am still in the process of using the common mafia terms.
What I meant was buddying* not bussing mechanics.
As I have explained also before.

OK you mean PQ pocketing you. But you know very well from past games that I've done this as all alignments because I think it is cheap to target a player without reasonable rationale and solely based on their past or their character. So why is that scum-lean from me? I ain't gonna lynch you for being who you are, but I will lynch you for scum-tells I detect in your responses and/or for flawed arguments.

[PQRnHack]

ily you're my new best friend

Way too affectionate and unilateral to be a pocketing attempt. Let's go TOWN!

[deathworlds]

2. You seem to view me as scum-lean based on one of several past games in which I kicked your butt. You also commented to deathworlds that they must have gotten fooled by scum~MM in the past and, perhaps, that is why they voted MM. It is silly to assume that Town players (except, maybe, you) would vote based on past losses. You do know that as town, we must set aside prejudice and bias and play to win THIS game, right?

I didn't vote MM this game???

[hollowkatt]

It is rare that I can identify townies D1, glad to have you on our team. If you are scum, then well done.
@Takumi Fujiwara I am trying to apply a certain lesson you showed me to being a good town player Can you tell me what it is? It's a quiz.

Your expression of doubt around Martin is very good. ++ pts

thanks, I think.

you like quizzing people don't you? Do you find you get a lot of good information/catch liars this way? I mean I guess you do if you're doing it

[PQRnHack]

I didn't vote MM this game???

That is actually hilarious! I added a mental "todo" item for myself to verify that Paopan's statement specifically around this was accurate, I just really didn't like his comment
"NGL but I like your MM vote also.
Guess we both got fooled by scum!MM in the past???"

But yeah I didnt verify the accuracy, but it did occur to me that it was not something i remembered in my mind, I assumed i missed it or didnt remember it. Now that I check it, you are absolutely correct. WTF is Paopan talking about??

[PQRnHack]

thanks, I think.

you like quizzing people don't you? Do you find you get a lot of good information/catch liars this way? I mean I guess you do if you're doing it

Uhh.. well, I did say I am not a particularly strong player. I try, at times, to force people to tell me something within a time period (like 30 sec) to verify their head is where the mouth is. Not gonna lie, it usually doesnt work I am not sure why. People even as Town forget stuff I guess. So yeah my methods are probably not the best. I am trying to compensate for my poor mafia reads by employing alternate strategies.

[deathworlds]

My first vote and entrance to the game was RVS Boba fett
Then I decided I would vote Paopan because I thought the entrance seemed a bit too forced. Those were my only two votes this game.

Granted before I did get fooled by scum MM before in S-FM spirits I think it was.

[deathworlds]

Uhh.. well, I did say I am not a particularly strong player. I try, at times, to force people to tell me something within a time period (like 30 sec) to verify their head is where the mouth is. Not gonna lie, it usually doesnt work I am not sure why. People even as Town forget stuff I guess. So yeah my methods are probably not the best. I am trying to compensate for my poor mafia reads by employing alternate strategies.

I mean town has to act inherently truthful and honest.
Honest thought is easier to type out than dishonest thought whilst also making it coherent.

Generally as town I like to think that other town would have the same/similar thought proccesses as myself, I don't think your strategy is bad in any case.

[PQRnHack]

My first vote and entrance to the game was RVS Boba fett
Then I decided I would vote Paopan because I thought the entrance seemed a bit too forced. Those were my only two votes this game.

Granted before I did get fooled by scum MM before in S-FM spirits I think it was.

So Paopan mixed you up with Mesk or what? Maybe we wait to hear from the man himself.

[Seanzie]

I've wolfed with you before and have never seen you be this up front trying to lead the thread and organize how things ought to be going. I've also been in enough mashes to know when someone is trying to make the most sense and most logical path for utilizing ITAs to get the maximum number of "good shots" vs letting shooters just kinda go all willy-nilly.

So yeah, it's basically the whole shots thing. If you're a wolf here it's advantageous to just let town do whatever they want to do instead of trying to organize when/where to be shooting. You can't control who's going to be leading wagons when the time for shots comes, so if you're advocating a plan where we're shooting at wagon leaders that can 100% backfire on you if you're wolfing here. Like if a packmate has a bad entry or bad series of posts and gets wagoned before the shots time that's a bummer for you/your pack.

It is easy for scum to talk mech.

[PQRnHack]

It is easy for scum to talk mech.

For the purpose of obtaining towncred and being the first person to voice optimal mech strat, before a townie does so. Right?

[PQRnHack]

So Paopan mixed you up with Mesk or what? Maybe we wait to hear from the man himself.

I kinda feel like scum are in their 24/7 chat busy strategizing how to get Paopan out of this hole lol. Not saying it is the case, but it is something to be considered.

[deathworlds]

If someone is acting uncharacteristically smart it could be a sign of scum coaching them.

[deathworlds]

God 24/7 chats are busted

[Seanzie]

For the purpose of obtaining towncred and being the first person to voice optimal mech strat, before a townie does so. Right?

Sure, and just to create content and look helpful.

[Seanzie]

God 24/7 chats are busted

Is this not the norm here? Almost every game I've played has had 24/7 scum chat.

[PQRnHack]

So now that Pao has spoken in some details (which I was not expecting) with a 13-player list and all (which is a bit of a red flag already).

The question to me is: is Pao forgetful or not attentive enough? Or was it a slip that he claimed deathworlds voted MM? Or forgetful cuz scum and mixing up players? I will confess, in a recent game, I drew a conclusion that scum would have a harder time keeping track of the much more numerous non-scum player roster and a mixup happened. But I was incorrect in my deduction that a scumbag slipped and mixed up two non-scum players. Turned out to be a TvT thing. Good thing we don't have 60 players to keep track of in this game.

With me, if I took the time to make a wall post, I would be triple checking all my stuff to avoid a silly screwup. So whatever the reason is for Pao's inaccuracy on the deathworld->MM vote, I don't like it. Is it an indication of a scum~Pao, i don't know.

[deathworlds]

Is this not the norm here? Almost every game I've played has had 24/7 scum chat.

It is most definitely not the norm, and is usually reserved for dual scum teams or nightless teams.

[PQRnHack]

Sure, and just to create content and look helpful.

How do you plead?

[deathworlds]

With me, if I took the time to make a wall post, I would be triple checking all my stuff to avoid a silly screwup. So whatever the reason is for Pao's inaccuracy on the deathworld->MM vote, I don't like it. Is it an indication of a scum~Pao, i don't know.

I'm afraid I don't have enough recent experience to speak to whether or not it could be one or the other

[deathworlds]

I have a pretty well established meta that some players here can take advantage of, but since I've taken multiple year long hiatuses from mafia i'm at a wee bit of a disadvantage in that department

[Seanzie]

How do you plead?

Aside from a few throwaway reads at the beginning, I have almost exclusively talked mech. Hence why I am poking HK about his "obvtown" read of me. I didn't agree with other people's assessment of HK's early posts as pingy, but that post sure did ping me.

I'm waiting to hear from them at this point.

[PQRnHack]

Aside from a few throwaway reads at the beginning, I have almost exclusively talked mech. Hence why I am poking HK about his "obvtown" read of me. I didn't agree with other people's assessment of HK's early posts as pingy, but that post sure did ping me.

I'm waiting to hear from them at this point.

Next time, just ignore my post and do your thang with the target. Better that way.

[Seanzie]

Next time, just ignore my post and do your thang with the target. Better that way.

Thanks for your permission to ignore you.

[PQRnHack]

This is probably the most pleasant first half of D1 I have experienced. Thanks for the team work, those of you who are not fooling me. Usually I have no clue D1 and it's a crapshoot.

Maybe it is because all the nice people are non-sc2 SC2 scum woulda already piled on me or Paopan.

Seanzie and Hollowkatt look great (I may be biased here as I like the mech talk, and as Seanzie himself pointed out, it's easy for scum to replicate that). We will work out our town strat for D1, but must be prepared for the eventuality that one of us will be gone D2, so prot types peeps, pay me a visit please.

Deathworlds has resonated with the rest of us, I think s/he is also town.

DoctorZeus is town-lean, never seen this player before, sounds like an arrogant person from another site I like that he poked here and there, although the pokes were fluffier than My Pillow. TWTBAW candidate for now.

Takumi not pushing in retaliation for my mis-vote of them in a prior game is a good sign of a level-headed player.

Lolde and Martin are OK but in the neutral territory. Mesk here as well.

No comment: MM, SB16, probably scrambling in their 24/7 chat coaching Paopan.
No read on Gikkle either.

Bradland no-show so far.


Paopan: not team with Lolde, i didnt like the pushes on Pao until he made some content posts later in the first half of the day. Scum-lean at this point, but it's Paopan, so go figure. It's his meta, keeps me guessing.

Boba Fett: i strongly dislike the suggestion of town not following through on town plan. Not familiar with this player, not sure if just a pessimist or a scumbag creating an alternative narrative for events that will unfold.



I am, however, worried that someone like Seanzie could employ the strategy of a good use of ITA for Town with the intention of "clearing" himself as Town while distancing himself from decision-making when a scum~Sean would know that town are not likely to propose him as a target for the shootings. So this is the real fear factor. Although this is a brilliant thing that scum could do, I feel like Sean is town because a) I was the first person to ask about ITA, and that's when replies came in, so he didnt volunteer this (but a brilliant deep-wolf scum would also do this in Sean's spot), b) his follow up about PoE and derivative options of the strategy, although still not 100% clear to me, seems to indicate evidence of CRITICAL THINKING and not agenda-building. So I am still feeling solid with sean here.

[PQRnHack]

Thanks for your permission to ignore you.

It is what teammates do

[deathworlds]

Deathworlds has resonated with the rest of us, I think s/he is also town.

He, just so you don't have to dance around it in the future

[PQRnHack]

He, just so you don't have to dance around it in the future

Lies, it is clearly "they" since we're talking about deahtworlds.