Intentionally rigged roles in saves
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  1. #1

    Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    What is the rule, if there is any, on hosting a rigged save? When I say rigged, it is when a host clearly gives the most overpowered settings to certain roles then prefers them while blacklisting others.

    Do you just avoid them? Do you just leave them?

    I think there should be a certain restriction because with current SC2 Mafia playerbase, you cannot just leave the lobby because concurrent mafia players are quite limited so unless you want to wait for a while, you have to put up with such saves.

    The most recent such save I can recount, without naming any specific player, had given veteran unlimited alerts, and while this may sound like nothing, but when the veteran (host) goes into play, he will most certainly be guaranteed to be confirmed by day 2, and with no evils being able to kill him during nights, it feels extremely overpowered and unfair to others because how do you get others to lynch a confirmed veteran from day 2? It gives the host unrivalled advantage over the outcome of the game and unless evils play extremely smart, you can not win against the veteran.

    Sure, it is within the host's power to modify saves and use his point privilege to prefer and blacklist roles, but it almost feels like it is cheating, not to mention unfun
    Last edited by ikarusdk; November 22nd, 2021 at 01:57 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Are you still crying about this? I will be sure to make sure I give Jailors unlimited executions, just for you. If you don't like it then make your own lobby.

    For anyone who cares, Town actually lost the game the OP is talking about. So evidently, it's not impossible for evils to win in a save with an unlimited alerts Veteran. Why he is still complaining 4 days after the fact is beyond me.
    Last edited by Veliaire; November 22nd, 2021 at 09:40 AM.
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  3. #3

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Just to give some context, I didn't even create the lobby of the game he's talking about. Someone else had, and the host asked if anyone had a save. Nobody responded so I did. In my save, the chance for a veteran to spawn is low. I have hosted dozens of saves with my current set up and only have seen a veteran spawn a handful of times. Everyone knows I like Jailors much more so for this guy to say I am preferring Veterans is a complete joke.

    The save originally contained a 2 alert veteran and an unlimited execution jailor with a 100% spawn rate, but I got too much push back on that, so I reduced the jailor to 3 executions and made the vet have unlimited alerts. The vet spawn rate was reduced so that their occurrence would be rare.
    Last edited by Veliaire; November 22nd, 2021 at 10:00 AM.
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  4. #4

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    Just to give some context, I didn't even create the lobby of the game he's talking about. Someone else had, and the host asked if anyone had a save. Nobody responded so I did. In my save, the chance for a veteran to spawn is low. I have hosted dozens of saves with my current set up and only have seen a veteran spawn a handful of times. Everyone knows I like Jailors much more so for this guy to say I am preferring Veterans is a complete joke.

    The save originally contained a 2 alert veteran and an unlimited execution jailor with a 100% spawn rate, but I got too much push back on that, so I reduced the jailor to 3 executions and made the vet have unlimited alerts. The vet spawn rate was reduced so that their occurrence would be rare.
    I like the double serial killer saves. Whoever made that lobby kudos. It's been one of my favorite lobbies to play so far in sc2mafia. Also I got to play as mafia and my team won when "Grace" was defeated. lolz

  5. #5

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Serena View Post
    I like the double serial killer saves. Whoever made that lobby kudos. It's been one of my favorite lobbies to play so far in sc2mafia. Also I got to play as mafia and my team won when "Grace" was defeated. lolz
    I love saves that break from 8331. I used to have a save where it was town vs neutrals, but I would get so much grief from people who are obsessed with 8331 that I conformed. I love it when someone hosts a unique save like the one you mentioned. It makes things more exciting and forces you to think differently instead of relying on routine and predictability like a crutch.
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  6. #6

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    I love saves that break from 8331. I used to have a save where it was town vs neutrals, but I would get so much grief from people who are obsessed with 8331 that I conformed. I love it when someone hosts a unique save like the one you mentioned. It makes things more exciting and forces you to think differently instead of relying on routine and predictability like a crutch.
    I enjoy mysterious saves that you never know what it will be like. Also the double serial killer save is fun because sometimes I get serial killer, hey! I should actually hop on mafia right now and recreate that save!!!!!! I wanna play it again tonight. Also, "Grace" is an angry bitch and she's just mad that we defeated her, me and my mafia team lolz.

  7. #7

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Serena View Post
    "Grace" is an angry bitch and she's just mad that we defeated her, me and my mafia team lolz.
    Haters are gonna hate! Lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Serena View Post
    I enjoy mysterious saves that you never know what it will be like. Also the double serial killer save is fun because sometimes I get serial killer, hey!
    Same here. I love 8331s that have 2 random triad and 3 random neutral, where the neutrals have no restrictions. You never know what you're going to get and that makes things much more fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serena View Post
    I should actually hop on mafia right now and recreate that save!!!!!! I wanna play it again tonight.
    You should! I'd be up for playing that save.
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  8. #8

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    it's in a grey area. Griefing charge is sometimes applied for repeatedly hosting egregiously troll saves. What counts as an egregiously troll save is essentially based on the community consensus opinion. People trying to host unlimited alert vet is pretty rare so I'm not sure if there is much opinion to look back on. I'd personally agree that it's stupidly OP and should probably be removed as an option in 2.0.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  9. #9

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    it's in a grey area. Griefing charge is sometimes applied for repeatedly hosting egregiously troll saves.
    What of people who join a lobby hosted by someone with a save they know they don't like, only to leave and start a new lobby as soon as the game starts? Is that a reportable griefing offense?
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  10. #10

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    What of people who join a lobby hosted by someone with a save they know they don't like, only to leave and start a new lobby as soon as the game starts? Is that a reportable griefing offense?
    you would have to prove they know them and that they are trolls lolz

  11. #11

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    Are you still crying about this? I will be sure to make sure I give Jailors unlimited executions, just for you. If you don't like it then make your own lobby.

    For anyone who cares, Town actually lost the game the OP is talking about. So evidently, it's not impossible for evils to win in a save with an unlimited alerts Veteran. Why he is still complaining 4 days after the fact is beyond me.
    I am not at all shocked it is you apparently with this save and prefer behavior.

  12. #12

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I am not at all shocked it is you apparently with this save and prefer behavior.
    Well when you play as many games as I do, someone is bound to complain about your save. I've hosted dozens of saves and this is the first time I've ever gotten a complaint about Veteran. Usually, it's the 100% jailor that people complain about.
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  13. #13

  14. #14

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    Well when you play as many games as I do, someone is bound to complain about your save. I've hosted dozens of saves and this is the first time I've ever gotten a complaint about Veteran. Usually, it's the 100% jailor that people complain about.
    Unlimited alert veteran is at best, not bright. Trolly

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  18. #18

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    it's in a grey area. Griefing charge is sometimes applied for repeatedly hosting egregiously troll saves. What counts as an egregiously troll save is essentially based on the community consensus opinion. People trying to host unlimited alert vet is pretty rare so I'm not sure if there is much opinion to look back on. I'd personally agree that it's stupidly OP and should probably be removed as an option in 2.0.
    I believe it should be removed, as there is no counter play to this. We only won that game because evils were lucky and towns weren't very responsive. But I can just imagine how one sided it would be otherwise.

  19. #19

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    I believe it should be removed, as there is no counter play to this. We only won that game because evils were lucky and towns weren't very responsive. But I can just imagine how one sided it would be otherwise.
    It's called not targeting the veteran. That's how you win. Mafia wins ties. Mafia can have an interro kill him. Mafia can have a Judge kill him. And if I'm not mistaken, the veteran killed more towns than evils did in that game.
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  20. #20

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Not surprised that Velly wants to make Town Killing roles OP.

    LOL @ unlimited alerts Veteran & 100% Jailor with unlimited executions. I'm surprised he didn't give Vigilante unlimited shots.

    I think Velly doesn't understand the core concepts of Mafia: Deduction and social interaction.

    Making an easily-confirmed OP Town role completely goes against the spirit of the game.
    In the past, there were criticisms about other OP Town roles for the same reason (Marshall with 2x4 lynches, Mayor with 4 votes, Investigators that detect exact role, etc).

    Firstly, there's no social interaction needed for an OP Town Killing role.
    You don't need to convince Town to vote with you, you can just execute / shoot at night.

    Secondly, there's no deduction involved with an easily-confirmed Town role.
    Once you showcase your unlimited executions, vigi shot, alert, you are confirmed Town without a doubt.

    Under usual settings, you CAN'T solo carry the Town as a Jailor / Vigilante no matter how good you are, because you have a limited number of attacks.
    Even though being a confirmed role gives you a huge advantage, you STILL need to be a team player and work with the rest of Town to flush out the evils.
    In saves where Jailor only gets 1 execution, the added uncertainty whether they're Jailor or Kidnapper further balances out their strong night ability.

    I think Velly has explained before that OP Jailors / Vigilantes / Veterans still need to know what they're doing, or they will just misuse their power and harm Town instead.
    That's true - But deduction is only half of the game.
    Even if a Jailor / Vigilante is good at deducing the evils, he SHOULDN'T be able to carry the game on his own, that's not what Mafia is about.

    Velly fails to grasp the fundamentals of Mafia.
    He has said before that there were many occasions when he sussed out the evils, but was let down by a lousy Town.
    Maybe he should work on his social skills instead of making Town roles OP in order to rely solely on his deduction skills.

    Mafia is a team game.
    Anyone who tweaks settings to make a lone wolf viable is a glory hog.
    Last edited by Exeter350; November 22nd, 2021 at 07:34 PM.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  21. #21

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    I believe it should be removed, as there is no counter play to this. We only won that game because evils were lucky and towns weren't very responsive. But I can just imagine how one sided it would be otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    It's called not targeting the veteran. That's how you win. Mafia wins ties. Mafia can have an interro kill him. Mafia can have a Judge kill him. And if I'm not mistaken, the veteran killed more towns than evils did in that game.
    Kidnapper and Judge are not guaranteed to be in the game.
    Assuming there's no Kidnapper & Judge, Mafia has no counterplay to unlimited alert Veteran.

    Mafia can try to kill enough Town in order to have sufficient votes to lynch the Veteran during the day.
    However this seems to be an unlikely outcome to me.

    If the Veteran is confirmed early in the game, he can collect roles and LWs and suss out the evils fairly quick.
    Like a Town Gov except unkillable at night.
    That is a ridiculous amount of power to give to any one player.

    Your counterargument that the Veteran killed more Town in a particular match doesn't mean anything.
    Incompetent players can goof up even the strongest of roles.
    When discussing balance, we should consider the role in the hands of competent players.

    See my previous reply about Mafia being a team game, deduction is only half of the game, and glory hogs.
    Last edited by Exeter350; November 22nd, 2021 at 08:13 PM.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  22. #22

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    What of people who join a lobby hosted by someone with a save they know they don't like, only to leave and start a new lobby as soon as the game starts? Is that a reportable griefing offense?
    People choosing not to play your save and leaving before the game starts is NOT reportable.

    Joining the lobby does not mean they want to play the host's save, they can repick the host in-game.
    Even if they fail to repick, they are free to choose whether they want to play or not.

    What IS reportable:
    * Leave training - Encouraging others to leave together with them
    * Role quitting - Quitting right after getting an undesired role

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    What is the rule, if there is any, on hosting a rigged save? When I say rigged, it is when a host clearly gives the most overpowered settings to certain roles then prefers them while blacklisting others.

    Do you just avoid them? Do you just leave them?
    You can leave before the game starts, but you cannot encourage others to leave, e.g. "Shit save I'm leaving, everybody join me to remake"

    Quote Originally Posted by ikarusdk View Post
    The most recent such save I can recount, without naming any specific player, had given veteran unlimited alerts, and while this may sound like nothing, but when the veteran (host) goes into play, he will most certainly be guaranteed to be confirmed by day 2, and with no evils being able to kill him during nights, it feels extremely overpowered and unfair to others because how do you get others to lynch a confirmed veteran from day 2? It gives the host unrivalled advantage over the outcome of the game and unless evils play extremely smart, you can not win against the veteran.

    Sure, it is within the host's power to modify saves and use his point privilege to prefer and blacklist roles, but it almost feels like it is cheating, not to mention unfun
    100% valid concerns.
    Last edited by Exeter350; November 22nd, 2021 at 08:02 PM.


    Your friendly neighbourhood Asian.

  23. #23

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    To a novice, anything that takes them out of their comfort zone is "trolly". An experienced player should be able to adapt without mewling about it.

    This basically makes the veteran unkillable, self confirmable, and straight up impossible to take on unless you manage to take out the town around him (and if he has that knowledge you're already messed)

    I can call myself pretty versed in the game, and I'm not sure how well I would fare against a good vet player with unlimited alerts as evil. For a novice it would be downright impossible even with luck going their way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    I feel like I'm watching a horror movie and the protag. group is exploring an old house or something and everything is super quiet, but you know something bad is about to happen. Mafia man is about to come out from behind the basement furnace and gun down varcron right in front of me. And there will be nothing I can do.

  24. #24

  25. #25

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    This basically makes the veteran unkillable, self confirmable, and straight up impossible to take on unless you manage to take out the town around him (and if he has that knowledge you're already messed)
    Veterans can die. They can be lynched, they can be jailed and executed by both failors and interrogators alike. They can not alert. These are all things I've seen happen to Vets in my save.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    I can call myself pretty versed in the game, and I'm not sure how well I would fare against a good vet player with unlimited alerts as evil. For a novice it would be downright impossible even with luck going their way.
    A good player doesn't attack a confirmed veteran at any point in the game, unless there are 3 veteran deaths that are attributed to the veteran in question and you've read the role card and know how many alerts the veteran has. It is typical for evils to avoid the veteran entirely, until the end of the game. Assuming the veteran chooses to lead town, it's smarter to diminish the veteran's sway over town by eliminating those who would vote with him.

    I think you and a lot of people in here are making a mistake by implying that it is normal for a town to play smart. Most people aren't smart. I have played literally thousands of games and it is a rare thing to see a town in sync and focused on clearing out evils. "All town has to do is x,y,z and it would be impossible for evils to ever win". Well, town hardly ever does x,y,z. Instead, they random lynch, or force several people to reveal their roles on the stand so Triad knows exactly who to kill first. Vigilantes shoot silent un-revealed Marshalls. Jailors execute Bodyguards. People play drunk and high, and don't bother to write last wills, or properly defend themselves on the stand.

    There is a reason why evils won in the game the OP is talking about.
    The Khaleesi did nothing wrong.

  26. #26

    Re: Intentionally rigged roles in saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliaire View Post
    Veterans can die. They can be lynched, they can be jailed and executed by both failors and interrogators alike. They can not alert. These are all things I've seen happen to Vets in my save.



    A good player doesn't attack a confirmed veteran at any point in the game, unless there are 3 veteran deaths that are attributed to the veteran in question and you've read the role card and know how many alerts the veteran has. It is typical for evils to avoid the veteran entirely, until the end of the game. Assuming the veteran chooses to lead town, it's smarter to diminish the veteran's sway over town by eliminating those who would vote with him.

    I think you and a lot of people in here are making a mistake by implying that it is normal for a town to play smart. Most people aren't smart. I have played literally thousands of games and it is a rare thing to see a town in sync and focused on clearing out evils. "All town has to do is x,y,z and it would be impossible for evils to ever win". Well, town hardly ever does x,y,z. Instead, they random lynch, or force several people to reveal their roles on the stand so Triad knows exactly who to kill first. Vigilantes shoot silent un-revealed Marshalls. Jailors execute Bodyguards. People play drunk and high, and don't bother to write last wills, or properly defend themselves on the stand.

    There is a reason why evils won in the game the OP is talking about.
    I hate the jailor role, it's so freaking dumb! I was Dragon Head and i pretended to be exe. and the jailor jailed me. and im like, im exe. and he goes. mayors orders to jail and execute you. so im like ok whatever screw you and left the game. I cant stand that stupid role. its bad enough my teammates were idiots and died early. also screw the guy that messed up our achievo save "hung jury". he ruined it for everyone literally, i was next in line to get my achievo and he messed it up. ughhhh!

 

 

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