S-FM 334 (Ladder): Once Upon a Town in the West (Small-Town Mafia) (13P)

[NotPaopan]

Okay but what makes Gikkle scummy to you? This is the equivalent of saying "he might be town but it's an info lynch on day 2" is not convincing.

Not to mention your fourth scum pick includes the vigilante you intend to rely on.

Again.. read my FR.

Yes, but not necessarily. If he doesnt shoot, then he's a scum candidate and lynch priority the next day. Simple as that. In the end, we are still getting way more info than the PQ lynch.

[jmw]

So uh, why is Frinckles being the kill target so unlikely that we're ruling out all worlds where PQR and Loldebite are both town?

[Auwt]

Even if veteran is a marginally better selection for a killer, Auwt+PQR don't nessecarily have to be teamed although I think it's likely.

Not only that but I've outlined how selecting PQR's role to do it makes perfect sense. And both are visible to Lookouts.

Auwt is visible to a Lookout
Any role (including PQR's one) is visible to Lookout

Auwt cannot be roleblocked.
Any other role (including PQR's one) can be roleblocked.


I talk you as a town here, yes PQR's role might be the best choice they could've used as a KP.
Be sure that if I were scum, this would have definitely not been the case.
If I were teamed with PQR I would have gone for the kill by the explanation stated above, it's mechanically a better option and there is like no pros to give PQR the KP if I were sharing the same bandit alignment.

This is why I am almost mechanically confirmed, the only reason I shouldn't be is

1) MM healed someone (which I dont believe it to be the case)
2) Bandit did not move last night (in which case it's quite weird, but uh?)

The likelihood PQR and I are sharing opposite alignment is quite consequent, and I am aware of that.
If we don't come to a consensus by the end of D2, I might turn to the PQR train.

On the other hand, I am expecting PQR to quickly vote Gikkle or he is going to catch my vote in his face.

[Auwt]

So uh, why is Frinckles being the kill target so unlikely that we're ruling out all worlds where PQR and Loldebite are both town?

Partially 'cause of PQR's changes in gameplay from D1 to D2 I assume?

[PQRnHack]

Auwt makes a good observation regardless of whether it's honest or a bus. PQR is locked up, not voting, trying to explain away common sense and we still don't know what his grand strategy for his night chat was.

A vote by me at this point would be premature. I need time to figure this out, and it's difficult to do so because I cannot assume that people voting me are necessarily scum, since it is decent odds from their PoV that Escort's RB'ed target was the GF/Mafioso/KPI whatever you call it. I can see a world in which you chose not to attack N1 via big brain play (you are one of few capable of something like that). Why did you guard Paopan (who is "not that scummy") instead of chain protection that you mentioned earlier?

[Frinckles]

So uh, why is Frinckles being the kill target so unlikely that we're ruling out all worlds where PQR and Loldebite are both town?

I've typed up a storm about my reasonings, notably that it was stated in-thread that MM would be healing me and he acknowledged it. Check my ISO.

[Loldebite]

A vote by me at this point would be premature. I need time to figure this out, and it's difficult to do so because I cannot assume that people voting me are necessarily scum, since it is decent odds from their PoV that Escort's RB'ed target was the GF/Mafioso/KPI whatever you call it. I can see a world in which you chose not to attack N1 via big brain play (you are one of few capable of something like that). Why did you guard Paopan (who is "not that scummy") instead of chain protection that you mentioned earlier?

NGL i'd have reconsidered voting you if i had reasons to believe you were town. I currently have none, since your reckless push D1 is still unexplained.

[Auwt]

Okay but what makes Gikkle scummy to you? This is the equivalent of saying "he might be town but it's an info lynch on day 2" is not convincing.

Not to mention your fourth scum pick includes the vigilante you intend to rely on.

In my opinion this situation is similar to the one from the previous game.
Where D2 there was that wagoon on Wrath and the opposing one on Paopan (I believe).
The blocks were strongly opposed and the opposing train (to my pov) was full of persons that looks way scummier than Wrath himself.

So I don't necessarly believe Gikkle to be directly scummy, but Paopan is townier than all the others voting him.
And as some have already been stating, due to VCA, its highly unlikely Paopan and Gikkle are sharing the same alignment.

Also now that PQR is a suspect and not voting Gikkle anymore it feels a bit odd to me.

[PQRnHack]

Partially 'cause of PQR's changes in gameplay from D1 to D2 I assume?

Drunk playing vs sober playing, but you can formulate your own opinion. If you think PQR is GF/Mafioso/KPI and got butthurt by roleblock, then I dont blame you, but that ain't the case. I have also reconsidered my D1 reads based on night chat I had with who i thought was a scum teammate. If I was scum here, I would probably just be like paopan scum and go "ITS GIKKLE" non-stop.

[NotPaopan]

What if the scum composed of Frinckles Oberon Oliver Mike

Full mind-blown. Pewwww.

[jmw]

Frinckles I don't know if I'd count this as a guarantee that MM was gonna be healing you, unless I missed something?

Oh. I can be healed. @Marshmallow Marshall you permaheal me. @luona you swap MM with someone.

Ah yes, because you certainly are town, right? Lol. Maybe. Maybe not.

[Auwt]

Drunk playing vs sober playing, but you can formulate your own opinion. If you think PQR is GF/Mafioso/KPI and got butthurt by roleblock, then I dont blame you, but that ain't the case. I have also reconsidered my D1 reads based on night chat I had with who i thought was a scum teammate. If I was scum here, I would probably just be like paopan scum and go "ITS GIKKLE" non-stop.

So you consider Paopan to be scum, right?

[Frinckles]

I can see a world in which you chose not to attack N1 via big brain play (you are one of few capable of something like that). Why did you guard Paopan (who is "not that scummy") instead of chain protection that you mentioned earlier?

The same reason I'm confident that I was not attacked.

MM healing me was the obvious thing he'd do. He did.
Luona swapping MM+Oliver was the obvious thing to do. We can assume she did.
Me bodyguarding Luona was the obvious thing to do. I did not, yet we know she wasn't attacked because Mafia wouldn't risk me killing them.

Why would Mafia attack the person most obviously about to be healed?

Funny enough, it's plausible Oliver was the Mafia kill in an attempt to snipe MM. I'm not saying Paopan was the best person for me to guard there. Light or Mike or even Oliver probably would have been better guesses, but here we are.

[PQRnHack]

So you consider Paopan to be scum, right?

left

[Auwt]

The same reason I'm confident that I was not attacked.

MM healing me was the obvious thing he'd do. He did.
Luona swapping MM+Oliver was the obvious thing to do. We can assume she did.
Me bodyguarding Luona was the obvious thing to do. I did not, yet we know she wasn't attacked because Mafia wouldn't risk me killing them.

Why would Mafia attack the person most obviously about to be healed?

Funny enough, it's plausible Oliver was the Mafia kill in an attempt to snipe MM. I'm not saying Paopan was the best person for me to guard there. Light or Mike or even Oliver probably would have been better guesses, but here we are.

Scenario:

Oliver attacked MM, luona switched MM/oliver and therefore Oliver got self-attacked but vested so is still alive.
Is that possible?

[jmw]

I don't think scum ever holster here but I also think drunk PQR sussing us in saloon chat like we were playing among us for the whole night isn't fakable, so I'm conflicted. But I guess I'll see at EoD, got some things to do for a bit.

[PQRnHack]

Funny enough, it's plausible Oliver was the Mafia kill in an attempt to snipe MM.

Does not compute.

[Auwt]

left

Sad to say but you were cooler when drunk.

[jmw]

Scenario:

Oliver attacked MM, luona switched MM/oliver and therefore Oliver got self-attacked but vested so is still alive.
Is that possible?

Possible. It doesn't have to be oliver doing the attack either though does it? Only a S!Oliver world and any bandit doing the kill.

[Frinckles]

Frinckles I don't know if I'd count this as a guarantee that MM was gonna be healing you, unless I missed something?

If that's your logic, how could scum have a guarantee of Luona to bus MM+whoever reliably? They could have taken out the MM portion of the chain right there or at the very least, hit Oliver's vest.

From what I can tell, the biggest risk taken there was me not protecting Luona. If I died, MM is scum. If MM dies, Luona is scum. If Luona dies, I'm scum. Thankfully the latter didn't happen.

So why would scum interfere with that chain unless they were directly a part of it or had a way of manipulating it, for example a mafia roleblocker?

But if Loldebite is a Mafia roleblocker, why didn't the kill occur at the point of the chain they wanted to kill? Roleblocking goes before bussing, they had every opportunity.

[PQRnHack]

Sad to say but you were cooler when drunk.

Happy to agree.

[Auwt]

Possible. It doesn't have to be oliver doing the attack either though does it? Only a S!Oliver world and any bandit doing the kill.

Fair.
And honestly it makes sense to me.
Compared to all the other options we have (bandit did not kill, doc got a save, escort rb KP)

I'm going to sort those out :

Likely :

Someone attacked MM, turns out he was switched with oliver who vested. No kill.

Less likely :

Loldebite roleblocked PQR who was the KP for the bandit team.

Unlikely :

MM saved Frinckles.

Very unlikely :

Bandits did not use their KP.

[Frinckles]

Scenario:

Oliver attacked MM, luona switched MM/oliver and therefore Oliver got self-attacked but vested so is still alive.
Is that possible?

Possible. I was worried about whether he'd say he was attacked but he went with no feedback.

[Auwt]

Possible. I was worried about whether he'd say he was attacked but he went with no feedback.

No interest of claiming he was attacked in case he is scum.
You just have to say "no I was not attacked" and then you have to cross that option out.
Sowing the doubt and giving credit to a potential roleblock like what is happening right now.

[Gikkle]

This is scum Gikkle for anyone who wasn't acquainted. I'm not pushing him because I think he's scumreading me, I'm pushing him because the way he painted my read is exactly how he plays as scum and these responses are too.

Please, go into more detail. Because I don't recall calling out poorly explained reads that weren't directed towards me being a distinctly S!Me characteristic.

[Auwt]

There are currently 15 users browsing this thread. (9 members and 6 guests)

• Auwt,
• Frinckles,
• Loldebite,
• luona,
• Mizery

We need a ghost emoooooooooote

[Gikkle]

Scenario:

Oliver attacked MM, luona switched MM/oliver and therefore Oliver got self-attacked but vested so is still alive.
Is that possible?

Just have the vigilante shoot Oliver, then, if PQR flips town. If he lied about not being attacked, he'll die.

[Frinckles]

No interest of claiming he was attacked in case he is scum.
You just have to say "no I was not attacked" and then you have to cross that option out.
Sowing the doubt and giving credit to a potential roleblock like what is happening right now.

Sure. But that also implies that:

1. Loldebite is town.
2. Luona is town.
3. MM is town.
4. There would be 8 (I think) viable switch targets, 4 of those would include mafia members.

I don't object to the first 3.

So would 4 mafia members really take the risk of either getting themselves hit and or wasting their kill in the scenario that oliver is chosen? Sorry, kind of confusing.

[Frinckles]

Sure. But that also implies that:

1. Loldebite is town.
2. Luona is town.
3. MM is town.
4. There would be 8 (I think) viable switch targets, 4 of those would include mafia members.

I don't object to the first 3.

So would 4 mafia members really take the risk of either getting themselves hit and or wasting their kill in the scenario that oliver is chosen? Sorry, kind of confusing.

Here specifically I'm saying, Luona could have chosen to swap the obvious pick, Oliver. Or, perhaps someone like PQR or Light or whoever isn't in the protection chain/veteran.

[PQRnHack]

Sure. But that also implies that:

1. Loldebite is town.
2. Luona is town.
3. MM is town.
4. There would be 8 (I think) viable switch targets, 4 of those would include mafia members.

I don't object to the first 3.

So would 4 mafia members really take the risk of either getting themselves hit and or wasting their kill in the scenario that oliver is chosen? Sorry, kind of confusing.

Or not attacking at all so they can frame someone like me? And then go after Loldebite when I flip town. Was this your idea?

[Mike]

There are 4 Mafia members. They knew MM would be healing me.

Why would anyone no-kill here? And who would actually roleblock a role that cannot be roleblocked?

Logically they handed their factional kill to PQR because they thought it would be reliable there and you blocked it. They played excellently there but you played better.

This is my point you declared you would vote who lodbite claimed to rb day one he hinted at who he would roleblock and he ends up role blocking PRQHack ???????

Does this make sence to anyone else?

[Auwt]

Sure. But that also implies that:

1. Loldebite is town.
2. Luona is town.
3. MM is town.
4. There would be 8 (I think) viable switch targets, 4 of those would include mafia members.

I don't object to the first 3.

So would 4 mafia members really take the risk of either getting themselves hit and or wasting their kill in the scenario that oliver is chosen? Sorry, kind of confusing.

1. is not an assertion, could as well be bandit or am I missing anything?

[Mike]

Consider you're sitting around with 3 mafia buddies (including pqr):

Maf1: hey guys who is doing the kill
Maf2: idk i guess i can
Maf1: but what if u get rb
PQR: ill do it nobody can stop my abilitiez
Maf2: wow PQR you are so heckin smart
Maf1: yeah nobody would think to rb u
Maf3: theyd have to b so dummm to rb u!

Dude why are you not fishing lodbite but instead you loading it out for him. Like WTF

[Frinckles]

This is my point you declared you would vote who lodbite claimed to rb day one he hinted at who he would roleblock and he ends up role blocking PRQHack ???????

Does this make sence to anyone else?

Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, it's a bit of a yolo roleblock. But it's equally a good pick for who Mafia would have do the night kill.

But I honestly think you & JMW have Stockholm Syndrome. PQR has never been overtly towny this game.

Or not attacking at all so they can frame someone like me? And then go after Loldebite when I flip town. Was this your idea?

1. is not an assertion, could as well be bandit or am I missing anything?

If they had a roleblocker, they could just RB Luona + Kill MM. There would never have been a hit on Oliver. (this is getting confusing)

[oliverz144]

ANNOUNCEMENT: LORD MAYOR PAOPAN SPEAKING!!
DAY 2 FIELD REPORT 卐

jmw
- I don't feel too good about this slot. He is very cautious about his image.
- My opinion on this slot might change depending on his night action. My advice... Play it like a "Go big or go home"
- I'm anxious if he's going to shoot PQ tonight or no.

Gikkle
- This train. Omfg why is it so hard to push this train??? Holy shit I'm pushing this.
- Lynching this slot will provide us with a lot of information. I'm not moving my vote out of here.

oliverz144
- This guy... Srly post is full of IIoA. In any case, I don't feel anything for this slot to be a town.
- Heavily defends Gikkle. Either he knows Gikkle is 100% town or teammates with him as Bandit. In any case, I don't feel anything for this slot to be a town.

Marshmallow Marshall
- I really don't understand this slot. Pushed me even before I started my first post in this game. And still voting me until now.

Oberon
- I told him to execute me to provide town info. Yet he didn't. Makes no sense to jail me smh. +scum points
- He claims to me in jail that Gikkle is scum; oliver town. Yet didn't vote Gikkle on day 2. +major scum points
- loldebite said that he "RBed" PQ and he instantly voted PQ. Opportunity much?? [#1170]

Loldebite
- Pretty sus when he considers luona and Oberon as his town core. His list doesn't make sense to me. [#1166]
- Claimed RBing PQ. So probably an info we might need in the ff. days or maybe tonight (vig???)

PQRnHack
- This slot is now getting in the spotlight due to having no n1 kill and him getting roleblocked.
- Still not convinced, maybe Mafia did not attack and intends to play a long game.

Auwt
- Didn't get along with him on initially on day 1. But his scum list matches mine. The lord mayor recognizes Auwt, as a town.

Light_Yagami && Mike
- The Lord Mayor considers bo Towncore due to mechanics. PoV might change, I'm an assessor and they're going for KPI evaluation in the upcoming days.

Frinckles
- Possibly attacked on night 1. Slight chance, but it might have. +town points
- Voted me at the last second on EoD1. Probably drunk again, NAI.

Luona
- Null reads for now... Role slot is too valuable to lynch or kill at this stage. Have no idea about this slot to be honest

Oh yeahhhh... Can post like this during weekends. We must carry out a great struggle with many contemporary features. Having the courage to fight and the fortitude to win is what has made our party invincible. Realizing our great dream will require hard work and persistence. Today, we are closer, more confident, and more capable than ever before of making the goal of national rejuvenation a reality. But we must be prepared to work harder than ever to get there.

HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN! HEIL PAOPAN!

i never ever "heavily" defended gikkle. Give a post # , or keep lying

[luona]

canadian thanksgivings this weekend bbys xx

Awut and mayor keep voteing togather.

so does JMW and MM but I am town reading JMW

ty for saying this, i didnt notice originally :o

jmw and gikkles back & forth seems a bit weird to me, one of them might be scum but i cant tell which..
jmw seems bad for what i think looks like omgus and a bit over reactionary coming from him, but there was a post from him

Lynching scum is powerful no matter how weak or strong their role is...

this post, which i liked.

-vote auwt

he just follows paopan although he is the "main scum read" and "wouldnt mind a paopan train"

like this

Sorry folks, i've been busy last night and woke up late today out of sheer lazyness. I blocked PQR because he was a risk-free block, having no night ability. Felt he was the most likely scum to act for the same reason, too and his reckless pushing on gikkle/jmw was weird. I believe now that he was bussing. I have not caught up yet, i wrote that after reading page 20. I also apologise because i wont be available from 5AM CDT to about 10AM CDT because i am playing in a chess tournament... I should have time to read everything and post more untill i go, tho

i also like this, the reasonings seem good imo.

i uhh, dont wanna quote the whole thing since its long, but idk how to link to the post specifically so im just gonna quote the start only and assume yall know the post im talking about (-:

ANNOUNCEMENT: LORD MAYOR PAOPAN SPEAKING!!
DAY 2 FIELD REPORT 卐

i don't like how in the readslist in this post, theres so little green, yet his actions dont line up with how somebody with a "so little greenslist" would be acting imo
because of the so many null/unsure reads, i feel like he should be trying to interact with people more, so i feel as if hes not making an attempt to solve.


i think this is the best move for today

-vote pqrnhack

i think if he flips scum, ill be looking at paopan next because his defense of pqrnhack

[Frinckles]

So, do you guys not voting for PQR think that currently scum are on this wagon? That both manipulation roles couldn't pull off a kill last night and let Mike+Light get their checks off etc?

[Gikkle]

-vote PQRNhack

[Frinckles]

PQRnHack (4 [L-4]):
Loldebite, Oberon, Frinckles, luona

2 roleblockers, and a manipulator, didn't make a kill but decided to target roles normally not affected by roleblocks at night? I'm just wondering when someone is going to call this a scum-led wagon.

[oliverz144]

The only way no-killing makes sense is if either Mike and or Light_Yagami are scum as well. Every single night that we get checks, the game gets closer to a solve. I did mention a theory about how Auwt+Mike+Light+Oliver scumteam could 'clear' themselves on N1, but I mean... come on.

ey yo i said that too.
mike and ly are either both scum or both town

[PQRnHack]

i think if he flips scum, ill be looking at paopan next because his defense of pqrnhack

I am not flipping scum.

[Frinckles]

ey yo i said that too.
mike and ly are either both scum or both town

You definitely did say that.

[Auwt]

ey yo i said that too.
mike and ly are either both scum or both town

That's not something I would bet my whole arm to.

[PQRnHack]

So, do you guys not voting for PQR think that currently scum are on this wagon? That both manipulation roles couldn't pull off a kill last night and let Mike+Light get their checks off etc?

Yes you are, and i thought you got healed by Doc, but if anyone would pull of this framing play, it is you. Your reply to my ABCD copied my own words for B and C, and you reinforced that Loldebite should be suspect next.

-vote Frinckles

[PQRnHack]

PQRnHack (4 [L-4]):
Loldebite, Oberon, Frinckles, luona

2 roleblockers, and a manipulator, didn't make a kill but decided to target roles normally not affected by roleblocks at night? I'm just wondering when someone is going to call this a scum-led wagon.

You chose not to target anyone and are now capitalizing on it by urging the said roleblockers to mislynch me.

[Mike]

The same reason I'm confident that I was not attacked.

MM healing me was the obvious thing he'd do. He did.
Luona swapping MM+Oliver was the obvious thing to do. We can assume she did.
Me bodyguarding Luona was the obvious thing to do. I did not, yet we know she wasn't attacked because Mafia wouldn't risk me killing them.

Why would Mafia attack the person most obviously about to be healed?

Funny enough, it's plausible Oliver was the Mafia kill in an attempt to snipe MM. I'm not saying Paopan was the best person for me to guard there. Light or Mike or even Oliver probably would have been better guesses, but here we are.

Becuse as long as you are alive if you are town you are the top target.

[PQRnHack]

@jmw once you see I am town, please use your shot. Frinckles is a veteran over here on SC2 and he is the big mastermind with big brain plays.

[Frinckles]

@jmw once you see I am town, please use your shot. Frinckles is a veteran over here on SC2 and he is the big mastermind with big brain plays.

I don't think you're flipping town. I think JMW & Mike have stockhold syndrome from your chat and are eager to give you the benefit of the doubt. Night chats are strong.

[PQRnHack]

I don't think you're flipping town. I think JMW & Mike have stockhold syndrome from your chat and are eager to give you the benefit of the doubt. Night chats are strong.

I know to the contrary. The fact you are not considering the other possibilities, which I KNOW to be true tells me you built your strategy and are executing on it. I legit thought Doctor saved you but now that you keep pushing your agenda, I choose otherwise.

[Auwt]

This is going to be a scum win.