Withdrawal from Afghanistan
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  1. #1

    Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Really surprised noone started a thread about this. I was wondering about people's take on the withdrawal and the conflict in general, in retrospect. Particulary intrigued to hear what the Americans think, but the rest of us are certainly entitled to an opinion! :P
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  2. #2

  3. #3

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Ngl, this was the first time I heard of it.
    Upon searching for an official announcement by the president, I learned that Trump is no longer it.
    I think I might have watched one too many cat videos..


    From what I understand,
    -In something called the "Doha Agreement" Trump promised the withdrawal to the Taliban.
    -That agreement forced Biden to choose between a withdrawal now or an escalation of the war.

    I wanted to search for Trump's reason of the promise and what I could find was:
    “Trump had no real sense of what was at stake in the war or why to stay,” writes Georgetown professor Paul Miller
    To which I must sadly say that I don't either. If someone could educate me on that - that'd be great. ╰(*´︶`*)╯

    What are the Taliban, and why did Trump promise it to them instead of the Afghan government?
    What's that Taliban takeover of Afghanistan right after the withdrawal? Sounds to me like "Afghanistan's takeover of Afghanistan", ngl. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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  4. #4

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    You just want a show don't you?
    That couldn't be further from the truth. I've been trying quite hard not to contribute to threads that seem toxic for quite a few months now, albeit with a few hiccups. If this devolves into people shitflinging I would PM Aamirus or MM and ask them to close my thread as soon as I could.

    In particular, I don't have as much patience for interpersonal feuds as I used to. If you're just looking for an argument, kindly piss off lol. But I think people have been (somewhat?) better for a couple weeks, and I am genuinely very curious to hear people's takes on this. So I want to give it a shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  5. #5

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Cool that US is ending a never-ending war.
    Very sad that America will be leaving behind some Afghans who helped (interpretters, etc).
    Very sad that some of America's right are already against bringing in those refugees (which is racist AND unpatriotic).

    I don't have much more of an opinion than that because I don't have a military intelligence background.

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  6. #6

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    That couldn't be further from the truth. I've been trying quite hard not to contribute to threads that seem toxic for quite a few months now, albeit with a few hiccups. If this devolves into people shitflinging I would PM Aamirus or MM and ask them to close my thread as soon as I could.

    In particular, I don't have as much patience for interpersonal feuds as I used to. If you're just looking for an argument, kindly piss off lol. But I think people have been (somewhat?) better for a couple weeks, and I am genuinely very curious to hear people's takes on this. So I want to give it a shot.
    +99999999, let's keep things in this spirit
    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Ngl, this was the first time I heard of it.
    Upon searching for an official announcement by the president, I learned that Trump is no longer it.
    I think I might have watched one too many cat videos..


    From what I understand,
    -In something called the "Doha Agreement" Trump promised the withdrawal to the Taliban.
    -That agreement forced Biden to choose between a withdrawal now or an escalation of the war.

    I wanted to search for Trump's reason of the promise and what I could find was:
    To which I must sadly say that I don't either. If someone could educate me on that - that'd be great. ╰(*´︶`*)╯

    What are the Taliban, and why did Trump promise it to them instead of the Afghan government?
    What's that Taliban takeover of Afghanistan right after the withdrawal? Sounds to me like "Afghanistan's takeover of Afghanistan", ngl. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    The taliban movement is a fundamentalist islamic movement; "taliban" means "student", implying "of the faith". They were uh, very naughty when it comes to human rights (like really very naughty), and then helped/hid Ben Laden. This angered the USA, who punished them severely - by attacking them, I believe in 2001, with an international coalition (war against terror). That's the official version, at least.

    A more critical approach would involve analysis of the strategical location of the country; during the Cold War, the two blocs were heavily involved in the area, and it's some kind of border between worlds - the Western/westernized world, the South-Asian world, Russia, etc. Everyone wants control of that place, which is a big reason for invading them (them generally governing in a terribly repressive manner just adds a layer of legitimacy). However, the people there happen to be Muslim in a quite traditionalist manner, which is why the taliban were strong: they had the support of the people, at least in rural regions. Thus, it does sound like Afghanistan's takeover of Afghanistan because that's what it is for a significant part, sadly. It's not only that, though, since there was a liberalization process going on in cities (I say in cities because rural areas are de facto governed by tribe leaders who do whatever the hell they want lol, to say it broadly). That means women holding power positions and not being under hijab 24/7, for example. This is very probably going to end.

    Afghanistan was an invasion that ultimately failed; the guerilla warfare applied by talibans was the way to go, it seems. If the people there don't change their mentalities significantly enough, sending tanks won't do much.
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  7. #7

  8. #8

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Cool that US is ending a never-ending war.
    Very sad that America will be leaving behind some Afghans who helped (interpretters, etc).
    Very sad that some of America's right are already against bringing in those refugees (which is racist AND unpatriotic).

    I don't have much more of an opinion than that because I don't have a military intelligence background.
    It's not racist though, that's a misleading thought.
    If you look at the study I posted here(which comprised of ~11k people), you'll find that in the UK people have a consensus that ethnic diversity is good, but at the same time that the rate of change and migration is too rapid. It's just a small part of a ~160 pages of that study, but it showcases well how the usual "you're against immigrants makes you racist" train of thought is just, for all intents and purposes, proven wrong.
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  9. #9

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    The taliban movement is a fundamentalist islamic movement; "taliban" means "student", implying "of the faith".
    With Taliban in charge the country will be Islamic on a governmental level, that's how I interpret this.
    But Afghanistan is 99.7% Muslim, so there's not really an actual difference here right? Apart from maybe it's the more "radical" Muslims being in charge.
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  10. #10

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    It's not racist though, that's a misleading thought.
    If you look at the study I posted here(which comprised of ~11k people), you'll find that in the UK people have a consensus that ethnic diversity is good, but at the same time that the rate of change and migration is too rapid. It's just a small part of a ~160 pages of that study, but it showcases well how the usual "you're against immigrants makes you racist" train of thought is just, for all intents and purposes, proven wrong.
    My point had less to do with overall government policy among all the countries in the world and more specifically with "all brown people are terrorists"

    "We don’t know. We just learned, for example, that at least 100 of the refugees U.S. military has flown out of Kabul – people we’re told are heroes – are in fact on terror watch lists. One man we evacuated apparently works for ISIS. Today, an Afghan interpreter told Fox News that this kind of thing is happening constantly. People are getting on planes in Kabul without any proof of identification whatsoever. It’s like voting in California:

    Interpreter Carl, Aug. 27: I know people that are in the same situation as I am right now. They have fought for the United States, they have provided supplies for the United States. But guess what? There are people that are getting inside the airport that have never worked, they knew somebody with a green card or they know somebody with a passport, that’s how they got through inside. I know people that are inside but they never worked.
    "

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tuck...fghan-refugees

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  11. #11

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    I'm no expert but sending an attack drone to kill some civilians and cause havoc doesn't seem like a withdrawal.
    I didn't know the mission was to kill civilians! /s

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  12. #12

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    My point had less to do with overall government policy among all the countries in the world and more specifically with "all brown people are terrorists"

    "We don’t know. We just learned, for example, that at least 100 of the refugees U.S. military has flown out of Kabul – people we’re told are heroes – are in fact on terror watch lists. One man we evacuated apparently works for ISIS. Today, an Afghan interpreter told Fox News that this kind of thing is happening constantly. People are getting on planes in Kabul without any proof of identification whatsoever. It’s like voting in California:

    Interpreter Carl, Aug. 27: I know people that are in the same situation as I am right now. They have fought for the United States, they have provided supplies for the United States. But guess what? There are people that are getting inside the airport that have never worked, they knew somebody with a green card or they know somebody with a passport, that’s how they got through inside. I know people that are inside but they never worked.
    "

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tuck...fghan-refugees
    Ahh, that's a topic I'm not really willing to touch on in this thread tbh.
    But in this regard, the people of US have the benefit of hindsight with regards EU having let in endless amounts of refugees from the middle east back in whenever it was. Except you'd have it in a miniscule of it's scale.
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  13. #13

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    I didn't know the mission was to kill civilians! /s
    It is! After the US negotiated with the ISIS-K and staged a bomb attack on Kabul to keep the money flowing. Aftermath includes Taliban gonna get mad. Biden showing some "force". Win-win for them.

    +1.6% increase of defence budget. Corruption at its finest.
    Last edited by NotPaopan; August 30th, 2021 at 10:36 AM.

  14. #14

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    It is! After the US negotiated with the ISIS-K and staged a bomb attack on Kabul to keep the money flowing. Aftermath includes Taliban gonna get mad. Biden showing some "force". Win-win for them.

    +1.6% increase of defence budget. Corruption at its finest.
    Do you have evidence of the negotiation?

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  15. #15

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    With Taliban in charge the country will be Islamic on a governmental level, that's how I interpret this.
    But Afghanistan is 99.7% Muslim, so there's not really an actual difference here right? Apart from maybe it's the more "radical" Muslims being in charge.
    I’m not even gonna pretend to know a good amount of this but AFAIK there are two subsects of Islam and they fucking hate each other. IIRC Taliban is one, the previous government is the other.
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  16. #16

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    It is! After the US negotiated with the ISIS-K and staged a bomb attack on Kabul to keep the money flowing. Aftermath includes Taliban gonna get mad. Biden showing some "force". Win-win for them.

    +1.6% increase of defence budget. Corruption at its finest.
    Typical sheep. As if you don't realize that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was a Republican plant to try to make Obama look bad. How convenient that Trump "killed" him during his term, where's the photos of the body? Or any sort of evidence of his death? Oh wait yeah his supporters tweeted that he's alive, that's all that Americans need I suppose!

    Lmao you actually think ISIS exists? Next you'll tell me World War 2 actually happened.... ROFL

  17. #17

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    It's not racist though, that's a misleading thought.
    If you look at the study I posted here(which comprised of ~11k people), you'll find that in the UK people have a consensus that ethnic diversity is good, but at the same time that the rate of change and migration is too rapid. It's just a small part of a ~160 pages of that study, but it showcases well how the usual "you're against immigrants makes you racist" train of thought is just, for all intents and purposes, proven wrong.
    ^^^^^^ and even just on a purely intellectual basis, not wanting massive/uncontrolled immigration flows and all the instability they bring on many levels doesn't mean you hate the people that come.
    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    With Taliban in charge the country will be Islamic on a governmental level, that's how I interpret this.
    But Afghanistan is 99.7% Muslim, so there's not really an actual difference here right? Apart from maybe it's the more "radical" Muslims being in charge.
    There's Muslim and Muslim, though. Talibans were very restrictive, couldn't care less for human rights, and had (still have) no intent to create any democracy. The previous regime was islamic as well (the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan sounds pretty... islamic), but much more liberal and democratic compared to the talibans' regime.


    Also Stealth, do you mean Sunni and Shia Islam? I thought pretty much everyone with political importance was Sunni in Afghanistan, although I'm not highly informed on the topic either.
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  18. #18

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    My point had less to do with overall government policy among all the countries in the world and more specifically with "all brown people are terrorists"

    "We don’t know. We just learned, for example, that at least 100 of the refugees U.S. military has flown out of Kabul – people we’re told are heroes – are in fact on terror watch lists. One man we evacuated apparently works for ISIS. Today, an Afghan interpreter told Fox News that this kind of thing is happening constantly. People are getting on planes in Kabul without any proof of identification whatsoever. It’s like voting in California:

    Interpreter Carl, Aug. 27: I know people that are in the same situation as I am right now. They have fought for the United States, they have provided supplies for the United States. But guess what? There are people that are getting inside the airport that have never worked, they knew somebody with a green card or they know somebody with a passport, that’s how they got through inside. I know people that are inside but they never worked.
    "

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tuck...fghan-refugees
    hi marsh

    again, this is what I meant by racist and unpatriotic.

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  19. #19

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    Really surprised noone started a thread about this. I was wondering about people's take on the withdrawal and the conflict in general, in retrospect. Particulary intrigued to hear what the Americans think, but the rest of us are certainly entitled to an opinion! :P
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  20. #20

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    There's Muslim and Muslim, though. Talibans were very restrictive, couldn't care less for human rights, and had (still have) no intent to create any democracy. The previous regime was islamic as well (the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan sounds pretty... islamic), but much more liberal and democratic compared to the talibans' regime.
    What are your thoughts on opinions such as this?
    (I will copy paste quite raw, I know you don't mind )
    I think the idea of forcing that society to adopt the way we structure our society is very foolish. They are a very tribal people and even saying 'The taliban' took it back misses the fact that the majority of the fighters we are calling Taliban have no loyalty to such a group
    We get too caught up in labels in general from my experience over there. They are just not organized in such a structured way.
    "what do u think the taliban are?"

    Its a label 1st world countries use so they can talk about the fight in terms people will understand
    They are really and truly on the most basic level tribal groups
    Some like etchother and some dont. Its many small groups doing things, every one with their own goals and beliefs
    You can group everyone that say- fights the US forces and give them a name but they are no more an organization than we are as a species
    Largely. Its all about power structures
    "so they're not some collective org?"

    In a way they are but its more semantics
    Its a category we make
    A label we put on what is essentially a superorganism although that lable suggests its an organism.
    If that makes sense
    Its a huge difference in how society's are structured. And your dealing with people who's loyaltys go back many generations and hold blood feuds with other people
    For an example, There was this city in Helmand Province Afghanistan that had an insurgent issue. Some foreign fighters came to fight us. The city was getting pissed because they were setting IED's but some were blowing their own people up. That city was made up mostly of 2 sects that had issues with etchother. We stepped in and took out the insurgents and they were happy. After a while we left but came back a month later to discover the town was abandoned.
    Turns out that with the insurgents gone the two groups went back to fighting and they killed etch-other off. The survivors were so few they just left.
    In our minds we may look at that as a city, the town as one group. But it was 3 'tribes' each with their own loyalty's. We can put the label on it to talk about it but it does not change the way that society interacted and our intervention ended up costing dozens of lives of those we 'say' we were there to protect
    Anyways.. Im rambling. But I have quite a bit of personal experience over there and can't help but feel like that entire situation should have been expected. In that war we fought them and they used the weapons we gave them to fight the russians to do it. In the next we will fight them again with the weapons we gave them.
    The capitalistic war machine keeps grinding out the tax dollars and the objective isn't to win.
    Peace is bad for business imo.
    Politicians are scrambling to figure out how they can manipulate how the information is presented to keep them in power while the weapons manufacturers are pushing their lobbyists to get those in power to get that war machine running again
    Or that is how I see it anyways

    I can see how it's possible that we in the west are labeling everyone over there too much.

    What I can't quite follow is the "peace if bad for business" statement in combination with politicians.
    The military is funded by the money of tax payers. Choosing to spend that money on military gives no money to the politicians, goverment or country. (other than maybe it giving you access to oil or something)
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  21. #21

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Ahh, nvm.
    For example, the Al-Qaeda, they were armed by the US own arms dealers - which was approved by the presidential administration at the time.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...weapons-2014-4

    Afterwards spending tax money for troops to go fight those very groups you just armed seem illogical unless those giving the orders got paid by those who sold the arms to begin with?
    The problem with that is - could such a level of corruption be really kept a secret?
    Surely there has to be some agency responsible for investigating corruption in the US, and from such an agency even "national security" labels wouldn't be off limits. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Unless it was the governments own idea all along, in which welcome to The War-for-Oil Conspiracy Theories! Which I'm honestly still confused about, and have trouble finding a good explanation for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
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  22. #22

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Ahh, nvm.
    For example, the Al-Qaeda, they were armed by the US own arms dealers - which was approved by the presidential administration at the time.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...weapons-2014-4

    Afterwards spending tax money for troops to go fight those very groups you just armed seem illogical unless those giving the orders got paid by those who sold the arms to begin with?
    The problem with that is - could such a level of corruption be really kept a secret?
    Surely there has to be some agency responsible for investigating corruption in the US, and from such an agency even "national security" labels wouldn't be off limits. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Unless it was the governments own idea all along, in which welcome to The War-for-Oil Conspiracy Theories! Which I'm honestly still confused about, and have trouble finding a good explanation for.
    Definitely not conspiracy lol. Other instances include Mexico currently suing US gun companies for negligence (well technically not since it is on purpose) on its arms trafficking, specifically towards the cartels. Or the Sunni Arabias or Come back Is Rael Jews. Sure the military got defence pacts on some countries... But in volatile regions such as Saudi or Taiwan, they don't... They just sell weapons. Peacekeeping my ass.

    @oops_ur_dead I cannot and won't provide if u ask me for evidence. But for sure you can deduce it on your own.

  23. #23

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    Definitely not conspiracy lol. Other instances include Mexico currently suing US gun companies for negligence (well technically not since it is on purpose) on its arms trafficking, specifically towards the cartels. Or the Sunni Arabias or Come back Is Rael Jews. Sure the military got defence pacts on some countries... But in volatile regions such as Saudi or Taiwan, they don't... They just sell weapons. Peacekeeping my ass.

    @oops_ur_dead I cannot and won't provide if u ask me for evidence. But for sure you can deduce it on your own.
    Of course you can't provide me with evidence that ISIS exists, because it doesn't. You actually believe the news? Lmfao.

    I have deduced it on my own. How convenient that they "invented" a terrorist that nobody had ever heard of, then killed him off right when the government needed it. Who the fuck had ever heard of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi? At least with bin Laden they gave it a couple decades or so.

  24. #24

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by oops_ur_dead View Post
    Of course you can't provide me with evidence that ISIS exists, because it doesn't. You actually believe the news? Lmfao.

    I have deduced it on my own. How convenient that they "invented" a terrorist that nobody had ever heard of, then killed him off right when the government needed it. Who the fuck had ever heard of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi? At least with bin Laden they gave it a couple decades or so.
    No, I read and watch the news and I came up with my own conclusion. And you should understand that those people; Taliban, ISIS, A-Queda, etc have their own story and not just some cerebrates wanting to get themselves killed cos they are ordered to. They have their motives and personal story to explain why they are doing that.

    ISIS-K definitely exist. It sided with the US (I won't even be surprised if some of its highest members are the US) to bomb Kabul to make the Taliban an embarrassment as Afghanistan's new ruler. The bombing just showed everyone in the world that even if the Taliban occupied Afghanistan, it doesn't control it.
    And it only cost 13 dead / 18 gravely-ill low-ranked service members that are easy to replace to show 7 billion the message.

  25. #25

  26. #26

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    It is! After the US negotiated with the ISIS-K and staged a bomb attack on Kabul to keep the money flowing. Aftermath includes Taliban gonna get mad. Biden showing some "force". Win-win for them.

    +1.6% increase of defence budget. Corruption at its finest.
    Can you give me evidence for this? I'm stupid and can't use google effectively. My search terms were "us kabul staged bomb attack secret deal" and "us isis-k negotiation".

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  27. #27

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by oops_ur_dead View Post
    Stopped reading here. Form your own opinions. Think.
    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    and I came up with my own conclusion.
    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Can you give me evidence for this? I'm stupid and can't use google effectively. My search terms were "us kabul staged bomb attack secret deal" and "us isis-k negotiation".
    The US in cahoots with ISIS is a good start. You can connect the dots after that.

  28. #28

  29. #29

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    ---



    The US in cahoots with ISIS is a good start. You can connect the dots after that.
    "I came up with my own conclusion that ISIS exists, after I voluntarily fed myself copious amounts of information from the media telling me that it exists, which I took at face value"

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
    Last edited by oops_ur_dead; September 1st, 2021 at 03:00 PM.

  30. #30

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    I am glad its over. The occupation 'rebuild' was stupid in my opinion. We set that country back 200 years trying to force their society to function like ours.

    The most substantial take-away I look at is how American military leaders did not have a real goal or objective. This (in my opinion) reflects that the war itself was just the pre-tense to move money around and keep that war economy going.

    Wars in general are always about power when you dig deep enough. We wrap whatever ethical human rights nonsense we can around them after the fact to look justified but its just about raw power.

    The refugee subject is another issue. No good will come of it in any respect and I generally disagree with the concept of refugees while holding the belief that it perpetuates inequality on a macro scale. But in this instance we created that suffering and have a duty to make it right regardless of the violence it can potentially bring to America. Not sure if diving into that subject would be productive though.

  31. #31

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    What are your thoughts on opinions such as this?
    (I will copy paste quite raw, I know you don't mind )
    I think the idea of forcing that society to adopt the way we structure our society is very foolish. They are a very tribal people and even saying 'The taliban' took it back misses the fact that the majority of the fighters we are calling Taliban have no loyalty to such a group
    We get too caught up in labels in general from my experience over there. They are just not organized in such a structured way.
    "what do u think the taliban are?"

    Its a label 1st world countries use so they can talk about the fight in terms people will understand
    They are really and truly on the most basic level tribal groups
    Some like etchother and some dont. Its many small groups doing things, every one with their own goals and beliefs
    You can group everyone that say- fights the US forces and give them a name but they are no more an organization than we are as a species
    Largely. Its all about power structures
    "so they're not some collective org?"

    In a way they are but its more semantics
    Its a category we make
    A label we put on what is essentially a superorganism although that lable suggests its an organism.
    If that makes sense
    Its a huge difference in how society's are structured. And your dealing with people who's loyaltys go back many generations and hold blood feuds with other people
    For an example, There was this city in Helmand Province Afghanistan that had an insurgent issue. Some foreign fighters came to fight us. The city was getting pissed because they were setting IED's but some were blowing their own people up. That city was made up mostly of 2 sects that had issues with etchother. We stepped in and took out the insurgents and they were happy. After a while we left but came back a month later to discover the town was abandoned.
    Turns out that with the insurgents gone the two groups went back to fighting and they killed etch-other off. The survivors were so few they just left.
    In our minds we may look at that as a city, the town as one group. But it was 3 'tribes' each with their own loyalty's. We can put the label on it to talk about it but it does not change the way that society interacted and our intervention ended up costing dozens of lives of those we 'say' we were there to protect
    Anyways.. Im rambling. But I have quite a bit of personal experience over there and can't help but feel like that entire situation should have been expected. In that war we fought them and they used the weapons we gave them to fight the russians to do it. In the next we will fight them again with the weapons we gave them.
    The capitalistic war machine keeps grinding out the tax dollars and the objective isn't to win.
    Peace is bad for business imo.
    Politicians are scrambling to figure out how they can manipulate how the information is presented to keep them in power while the weapons manufacturers are pushing their lobbyists to get those in power to get that war machine running again
    Or that is how I see it anyways

    I can see how it's possible that we in the west are labeling everyone over there too much.

    What I can't quite follow is the "peace if bad for business" statement in combination with politicians.
    The military is funded by the money of tax payers. Choosing to spend that money on military gives no money to the politicians, goverment or country. (other than maybe it giving you access to oil or something)
    "Taliban" is an ideology (a school/interpretation of Islam), not a group. Also, "they [Afghans] are a very tribal people"... uh, I'm not sure that's a valid point lol. I'm not even sure "they" are one people to begin with, although that would have to be history fact-checked. Some are very happy with tribal organization, some are far from that (don't tell me people in Kabul, Herat or whatever other big city there is in Afghanistan are very tribal, that's utterly false).

    The "label" part is somewhat true since talibans are simply demonized by the US, as can be seen in military propaganda movies, for example. However, the answer is a little oversimplified: it's not true that the talibans are nothing organized. There's a general agreement of guerilla warfare, and there are founders of the movement (hence why there are people going to lead the new government). It's not a super strict organization of course, and it will still be civil war once the "Western problem" is gone for them, but it still is an organization, as the anonymous author even recognized later - this part seems contradictory with the rest. It seems that was written out of resent for the very simplistic and inaccurate label "talibans are Hell's army of evil muslims" views more than out of an intent to grasp the concept, which is understandable, but not so enlightening.

    As for "peace is bad for business", remember how WW2 got the US out of the Great Depression. They manufactured weapons, a LOT of weapons. That, and access to oil or something, as you said, but I don't know enough about the area to say for sure.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  32. #32

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    "Taliban" is an ideology (a school/interpretation of Islam), not a group. Also, "they [Afghans] are a very tribal people"... uh, I'm not sure that's a valid point lol. I'm not even sure "they" are one people to begin with, although that would have to be history fact-checked. Some are very happy with tribal organization, some are far from that (don't tell me people in Kabul, Herat or whatever other big city there is in Afghanistan are very tribal, that's utterly false).

    The "label" part is somewhat true since talibans are simply demonized by the US, as can be seen in military propaganda movies, for example. However, the answer is a little oversimplified: it's not true that the talibans are nothing organized. There's a general agreement of guerilla warfare, and there are founders of the movement (hence why there are people going to lead the new government). It's not a super strict organization of course, and it will still be civil war once the "Western problem" is gone for them, but it still is an organization, as the anonymous author even recognized later - this part seems contradictory with the rest. It seems that was written out of resent for the very simplistic and inaccurate label "talibans are Hell's army of evil muslims" views more than out of an intent to grasp the concept, which is understandable, but not so enlightening.

    As for "peace is bad for business", remember how WW2 got the US out of the Great Depression. They manufactured weapons, a LOT of weapons. That, and access to oil or something, as you said, but I don't know enough about the area to say for sure.
    For context that quoted copy-paste was a bit of my ramblings in a discord serious/politics chat from a few weeks back.

  33. #33

  34. #34

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I am glad its over. The occupation 'rebuild' was stupid in my opinion. We set that country back 200 years trying to force their society to function like ours.

    The most substantial take-away I look at is how American military leaders did not have a real goal or objective. This (in my opinion) reflects that the war itself was just the pre-tense to move money around and keep that war economy going.

    Wars in general are always about power when you dig deep enough. We wrap whatever ethical human rights nonsense we can around them after the fact to look justified but its just about raw power.

    The refugee subject is another issue. No good will come of it in any respect and I generally disagree with the concept of refugees while holding the belief that it perpetuates inequality on a macro scale. But in this instance we created that suffering and have a duty to make it right regardless of the violence it can potentially bring to America. Not sure if diving into that subject would be productive though.
    You basically wrote a statement about what I really wanted to say. As someone who is currently at CEFR B2, I hope I could write the same as you. Magnificent!

    - War Issue: Business > Righteousness (check)
    - To take in refugees issue: morally right, economically wrong, spreads regional instability (check)

    Instability -> Discrimination -> Racism

  35. #35

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    For context that quoted copy-paste was a bit of my ramblings in a discord serious/politics chat from a few weeks back.
    I kinda guessed it was that :P
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  36. #36

  37. #37

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by WrathCyber View Post
    From my experience in CK in Total War games, it looks like Afghanistan didn't invest heavily into infrastructure to increase loyalty and decrease corruption.
    I'm surprised they didn't try this, what an oversight.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  38. #38

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    ---



    The US in cahoots with ISIS is a good start. You can connect the dots after that.
    The fact that you're unable to provide any sort of external links to support your conspiracy theories makes me think that maybe there is none.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  39. #39

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Isn't it obvious? The Taliban are too strong and are overwhelming the Afghan army.

    There are a plethora of issues that plagued Afghanistan after we went to war with them. Many of these issues are excellently covered by Turning Point: 9/11 and the War on Terror on Netflix. If you don't have access to it though, you can view another eyeopening documentary here: https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI

    Honestly, the war was a loss cause after the Taliban were chased out. Killing bin Laden was a small uptick, but the country is now in ruins and primed for even more upcoming terrorist attacks on the West. Contributing factors:

    1. The US deviated from Afghanistan and went to Iraq on unfounded intelligence, costing billions of dollars and lives. Thus creating the conditions for ISIS to fester.

    2. US politicians are publicly announcing their war progress and withdrawal plans so the Taliban just has to get an English speaking guy to tell them when to prepare.

    3. Taliban is a religious political group that any Afghans can adopt. Anyone from a small girl or boy to an 80 year old village elder can be a Taliban.

    4. The US deploying drones increases civilian casualty and anger towards the US.

    5. Only 43% of the country is literate, so this increases corruption in the Afghan government and army. Millions of money wasted because the soldiers are busy wasting ammo to look strong or to give their friends lucrative contracts.

    6. President Karzai is a corrupt fuck who milked the West's funds.

    7. Previous weapons US arms companies gave to Afghanistan from the 1970s and 1980s stayed there and ended up in the hands of feudal warlords and the Taliban.

    8. All the equipment is fucking broken and are too expensive to fix.

    9. Some of the soldiers are always high on opium and should've been kicked out.

    10. The entire country is so fatigued with war for the past 50 years that they'd rather just let the bad guys run the show so they can have a bit of stability.

    11. IED landmines are fucking everywhere, so it hurts the armies' ability to mobilize.

    12. Afghans thought the US would do everything for them, but that isn't the case.

    13. US army is ill-equipped to nation build, you need experts on the field to actively guide and direct.

    14. Taliban spies will often join the Afghan army, steal equipment and info, and desert their positions.

    15. Some of the Afghan army leaders are fucking gay pedophiles with their chai boy culture, so it hurts morale. Some of those chai boys are also Taliban spies.

    16. The whole country is mountainous, so difficult to fight and maintain control.

    17. Most of the news about progress to the American media is propaganda. They've done pretty poorly.
    Last edited by HentaiManOfPeace; September 17th, 2021 at 02:23 PM.

  40. #40

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    It seems like it's not going well for Afghanistan.
    In a suicide blast inside a Shia Mosque, in Kunduz, killed over 100 people. It's the third deadly attack this week apparently targeting religious institutions.
    If you want a source, it seems every news media in existence has covered it - take your pick. If it's all the same to you, I got it from video description in a recent UN Watch video.

    How in the world can any Muslim do suicide bombing inside a Mosque of all places? They've gone completely mad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  41. #41

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    It seems like it's not going well for Afghanistan.
    In a suicide blast inside a Shia Mosque, in Kunduz, killed over 100 people. It's the third deadly attack this week apparently targeting religious institutions.
    If you want a source, it seems every news media in existence has covered it - take your pick. If it's all the same to you, I got it from video description in a recent UN Watch video.

    How in the world can any Muslim do suicide bombing inside a Mosque of all places? They've gone completely mad.
    They have been killing themselves for thousands of years. The biggest thing I see as changed is that now small warlords have giant tanks and cannons they can do it with.

    I think American leaders got what they wanted though. They were able to funnel trillions of dollars from the American public to arms manufactures who lobbied with congress and they get to act blameless condemning Afghans while they are used to commit atrocious acts of violence.

    On the bright side Biden played it off well shifting the blame to the generals. The leadership on how withdraw happened was impressively incompetent. Hopefully it will stand as an example of exactly why you should listen to the advice of professionals in your field when you have no clue what you are doing.

  42. #42

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    They have been killing themselves for thousands of years. The biggest thing I see as changed is that now small warlords have giant tanks and cannons they can do it with.
    Maybe so, but inside a Mosque? I'm not a Muslim but even I think suicide bombing inside a Mosque is just insane.



    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    The leadership on how withdraw happened was impressively incompetent. Hopefully it will stand as an example of exactly why you should listen to the advice of professionals in your field when you have no clue what you are doing.
    Compare it to how it took the Russians 8 year to fully withdraw all their forces from the Baltic states after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    [Wiki]
    But ok those are not comparable


    It was Trump who promised that though, and Biden was just respecting that agreement.

    I'm just wondering though. Will the US now expand less tax money towards the military or will nothing change in that regard? Your medical and education bills are kinda legendary around the world ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Last edited by OzyWho; October 9th, 2021 at 10:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  43. #43

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Maybe so, but inside a Mosque? I'm not a Muslim but even I think suicide bombing inside a Mosque is just insane.
    I think you forget how much hatred exists within although the same faith but different beliefs/churches/ or w/e thats called.
    I mean protestant and catholics have just been as bad.
    So its no suprise it happens.
    Last edited by SuperJack; October 9th, 2021 at 01:09 PM.
    Cryptonic made this sig

    Quote Originally Posted by HentaiManOfPeace View Post
    gotchu fam

    Attachment 28016

  44. #44

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Maybe so, but inside a Mosque? I'm not a Muslim but even I think suicide bombing inside a Mosque is just insane.
    I am not sure how to say this in a politically correct way but when I was in Afghanistan there was a city they used as a mosque to base attacks. They would snipe from near by and then retreat to the mosque knowing it was some 'sacred' bullshit we would not touch. I think I lost my sympathy there when they started making an effort to get kids killed so they could launch a PR campaign that the child died after demanding payment for the killed kid.

    The fact they are now killing etch other in a mosque gets a giggle from me after how little regard they have for the 'rules of war' or any ethics. Go to your local VA and talk to your combat vets with PTSD and you will find most of them are fucked up because those assholes used women and children to do some really ugly stuff because they had social 'protections.' Saying a Mosque is sacred is just declaring it off limits to 1st world countries. An enemy that uses children as cannon fodder for a marketing ploy has no moral standing.

  45. #45

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Compare it to how it took the Russians 8 year to fully withdraw all their forces from the Baltic states after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    [Wiki]
    But ok those are not comparable


    It was Trump who promised that though, and Biden was just respecting that agreement.

    I'm just wondering though. Will the US now expand less tax money towards the military or will nothing change in that regard? Your medical and education bills are kinda legendary around the world ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Valid points. Trump is no better and arguably the cause of the timeline although I would point to (and took part in) the consolidation of Iraq that was well executed without any loss of life. Regardless of the timeline (and with my ignorance of politics) the 'withdraw' from Afghanistan looked like it was caused by some total panic retreat. Blame it on Biden or Trump but that never would have happened if whatever jackass politician had listened to military advice. I was not sitting in war cabinets in Iraq or Afghanistan but I am very damn confident no military commander would have willingly allowed that mess if they had half the resources they felt they needed to at least stand up for a decent fight.

    I don't think the US will spend a dollar less until this tragedy is used as an excuse to go back and restart the war machine.

    I do always like to point out how medicine and education are the only subsidized things and they are absolutely out of control in price which points to how subsidized capitalism only profits the private industries with the money to lobby while shifting the cost to the tax payer. It truly is a legendary business model for anyone who wants to generate profitable subsidization which funnels money from the tax payer to the private industry.

  46. #46

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    It seems like it's not going well for Afghanistan.
    In a suicide blast inside a Shia Mosque, in Kunduz, killed over 100 people. It's the third deadly attack this week apparently targeting religious institutions.
    If you want a source, it seems every news media in existence has covered it - take your pick. If it's all the same to you, I got it from video description in a recent UN Watch video.

    How in the world can any Muslim do suicide bombing inside a Mosque of all places? They've gone completely mad.
    Well they consider eachother usurpers generally speaking, so it's not that surprising. I think there are Sunni schools that consider Shias are misled Muslims, but many just don't consider them Muslim at all.

    There is always a reason, or more accurately, an excuse, to be violent.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  47. #47

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Valid points. Trump is no better and arguably the cause of the timeline although I would point to (and took part in) the consolidation of Iraq that was well executed without any loss of life. Regardless of the timeline (and with my ignorance of politics) the 'withdraw' from Afghanistan looked like it was caused by some total panic retreat. Blame it on Biden or Trump but that never would have happened if whatever jackass politician had listened to military advice. I was not sitting in war cabinets in Iraq or Afghanistan but I am very damn confident no military commander would have willingly allowed that mess if they had half the resources they felt they needed to at least stand up for a decent fight.

    I don't think the US will spend a dollar less until this tragedy is used as an excuse to go back and restart the war machine.

    I do always like to point out how medicine and education are the only subsidized things and they are absolutely out of control in price which points to how subsidized capitalism only profits the private industries with the money to lobby while shifting the cost to the tax payer. It truly is a legendary business model for anyone who wants to generate profitable subsidization which funnels money from the tax payer to the private industry.
    Blame Donald Rumsfeld for somehow convincing POTUS Bush Jr. to tangent into Iraq when their primary focus should've been Afghanistan from the get-go.

    Another example of failed American leadership fucking shit up for the rest of us non-Americans trying to live our own lives peacefully.

  48. #48

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Hey so i'm currently serving in the United States Marine Corps and personally for me, it was a horrible move.
    But the worst part is not that we left Afghanistan. The worst part is HOW we left Afghanistan. We left behind 8+ trillion dollars worth of military grade weapons from small arms to missiles, armored vehicles, and aircrafts. We also left behind AMERICAN people left to be stuck there. We also let 13 U.S Service members to die in an attack as a result of the hasty withdrawal.

    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. David L. Espinoza, 20, of Rio Bravo, Texas
    Marine Corps Sgt. Nicole L. Gee, 23, of Sacramento, Calif.
    Marine Corps Staff Sgt. Darin T. Hoover, 31, of Salt Lake City
    Marine Corps Cpl. Hunter Lopez, 22, of Indio, Calif.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Rylee J. McCollum, 20, of Jackson, Wyo.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Dylan R. Merola, 20, of Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Kareem M. Nikoui, 20, of Norco, Calif.
    Marine Corps Sgt. Johanny Rosario Pichardo, 25, of Lawrence, Mass.
    Marine Corps Cpl. Humberto A. Sanchez, 22, of Logansport, Ind.
    Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Jared M. Schmitz, 20, of St. Charles, Mo.
    Marine Corps Cpl. Daegan W. Page, 23, of Omaha, Neb.
    Navy Hospital Corpsman Maxton W. Soviak, 22, of Berlin Heights, Ohio
    Army Staff Sgt. Ryan C. Knauss, 23, of Corryton, Tenn.

    God bless these brave men and women... they shall be remembered. May they rest in peace.

    Trump had a plan made specifically to protect the embassies preventing a Taliban take over, and an organized evacuation plan to leave Afghanistan. God bless Trump he's done so much for the country, no one even knows. But President Biden destroyed those plans resulting in an absolute catastrophe.
    That's all I have to say for now.

  49. #49

  50. #50

    Re: Withdrawal from Afghanistan

    Quote Originally Posted by HentaiManOfPeace View Post
    Blame Donald Rumsfeld for somehow convincing POTUS Bush Jr. to tangent into Iraq when their primary focus should've been Afghanistan from the get-go.

    Another example of failed American leadership fucking shit up for the rest of us non-Americans trying to live our own lives peacefully.
    I’m starting to feel like ‘American’ and ‘leadership’ do not belong next to etchother in context with politicians. It’s getting to the point of how we joke about the term ‘government intelligence’

 

 

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