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  1. #1

    General Beta Feedback

    1. I think Enchantress should be Town Power. Not sure how she's protective. Something a lot of 2.0 saves lack are the traditional 1.0 protectives. Not a lot of docs, or bgs, and it's because Town Protective is cluttered with too many roles. Town Prot would be great with Doc, BG, Armor, Bus. Four roles.

    2. Bus Driver should be moved back to Town Prot, because he actually has the ability to protect. Enchantress CAN protect in a way similar to bus, but Bus doesn't have to eat a bullet for it. Furthermore Enchantress has to guess just right to find the GF to target herself, where Bus just has to swap the intended prot target. This makes Bus Driver more qualified to be Prot than Enchantress.

    3. Town Random excluding Prot still excludes Escort and Bus Driver, even though these have changed designations. If you were to return Bus Driver to prot, you would just need to make sure Town Random Excludes Prot doesn't keep excluding Escort. I think Escort to Town Support is really good, because she's not really a prot.

    4. I have heard complaints about Party Host from other people when hosting my lobbies, and I have to say their criticism is valid. "He doesn't actually do anything." He doesn't. Blocking Mafia from talking at night doesn't actually block Mafia from doing anything. It is a low-power role akin to Crier. I think to buff Party Host you should make him also do a global Role Block, meaning NOTHING happens that night. No jail targets, nobody gets attacked, it essentially skips the entire night and gives town an extra day. This could be like town's Anti-Judge, where Judge steals a day from town, Party Host would give an extra day to town. Useful if say, there's no BG but you want mayor to live another day.

    5. Spy was one of my favorite roles, I have caught many Mafia by analyzing how they speak at night. I understand your argument for removing it and giving Mafia the peace to discuss their plans at night. However, the ability you chose to give him should be redone. You removed a unique playstyle element (the ability to read Mafia chat at night) and replaced it with a mundane ability present in many roles (night immunity). This nerf is watering down the game and making it more bland. I think you should add a wiretap ability for him. 1, 2, 3 wiretaps available depending on which checkbox you pick. Wiretap a player each night, giving yourself the ability to read their PMs during the day.

    Also maybe just add a check box to give the save creators an option whether or not they want Spy to read Mafia chat. Here's a replay of me catching all 3 mafia night 1 through text analysis. This is the one thing in this game where you may be talking to the best. Please don't take this avenue of play from me. SpyPlay1.SC2Replay
    Last edited by lawson; July 19th, 2021 at 08:05 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Point 5
    The problem wasn't that spys abilty to read mafia chat wasn't a valid way to find mafia.
    The biggest problem was it completly disabled the mafias ability and the whole meta of mafia using night chat to work together. Even if spy wasnt in the game, people just refused to even chat in it, and got used to not chatting.
    So the change was made, with in mind to re-buff the Mafia night chat and hopefully restore using it to further their goals without fear of speaking.
    Mafia is a disscussion based game, and now discussion ability has been restored to the mafia.

    Reguarding its ability, it has still kepted the tracking of mafia kills and visits. So its not just a night immunity left on it.
    But in reguards to the PM ability, that has been discussed (Also back in the early days, Spy could read all PM's as a natural ability) and for now there are no plans to make changes to the PM abilities or meta.

    Point 3
    Sounds more like a bug. isnt to hard to fix.
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  3. #3

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    I'm pretty sure I said I understood the reasoning for the nerf. I know what you guys are getting at. Just, for something that you don't really have to do, why take away something that gives me pleasure?

    So you guys are gonna take away one of my best roles, fine. Fair point. But I also think your change is weak sauce. Literally read what I wrote. You took away a UNIQUE ability and replaced it with something MANY roles have (a vest). Your new Spy is literally just an Anti-Disguiser. It's trash now. Damn near useless and DEFINITELY WAY MORE BORING. A fucking VEST?! How fun.

    Forum lurkers should listen to people who actually play the game. We're the ones who are gonna be keeping it alive for you to log on every 6 months and play a few rounds.

  4. #4

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson View Post
    I'm pretty sure I said I understood the reasoning for the nerf. I know what you guys are getting at. Just, for something that you don't really have to do, why take away something that gives me pleasure?

    So you guys are gonna take away one of my best roles, fine. Fair point. But I also think your change is weak sauce. Literally read what I wrote. You took away a UNIQUE ability and replaced it with something MANY roles have (a vest). Your new Spy is literally just an Anti-Disguiser. It's trash now. Damn near useless and DEFINITELY WAY MORE BORING. A fucking VEST?! How fun.

    Forum lurkers should listen to people who actually play the game. We're the ones who are gonna be keeping it alive for you to log on every 6 months and play a few rounds.
    Understood. Will be something to take a re-look after the bug stompng is done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HentaiManOfPeace View Post
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  5. #5

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  8. #8

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Thanks for keeping this thread going. I think, honestly, we need to focus on adding to the current Mafia 1.0 versus creating a whole new meta with Mafia 2.0. That means we need to take things slow, perhaps introduce things slow. I can't get anyone to join my 2.0 lobbies anymore, they prefer 1.0 overwhelmingly.

    For me, with this beta, the focus has always been not on novelty, but in something that can last. This is why I was one of the first to create my own 2.0 save and tinker with balance on my own terms. At it's current state, 2.0 is a novelty that people enjoy a lot while it is new, but they want to return to a baseline. This is the baseline I have been trying to create with the 2.0 meta.

    That being said, I think the only role that is truly worthy of being added to Maf 1.0 at this state is Poisoner. It's basically the role that Arsonist should have been. If given a NI option checkbox, it would fit in nicely with other NK in the current Mafia 1.0 meta. We may need to look at this not as one big patch, but as a series of patches, where roles are introduced slowly. I think the reality is you guys are going to have to accept that a lot of your ideas will need to be heavily reworked to be something that people will play again, again and again.

    I think you should start by adding Poisoner, and seeing how that turns out. There are a lot of good ideas you guys have, but you have to understand the reality of this. 95% of your ideas won't be worthy of becoming a permanent addition to 1.0. Frinckles tells me "Once I drop this patch you'll never see me again." This attitude is fucking garbage. I'm gonna keep playing this game for maybe another decade if it's still popular in 2030. Listen to me, because I'm never going to leave. I want to see this thing survive. Don't drop a patch and leave just to fulfill some stupid ego creative bullshit you have. I plan to play forever. So I really hope you take me seriously.

    That being said, there are two metas you can play with. The "Goofy Meta" and the "Actual Meta". The "Actual Meta" is 933/8331, baseline Mafia play, which MUST remain consistent (or improved) if the game is to survive. The "Goofy Meta", is a lot of the shit you guys introduce in 2.0, like Chaos Mode. If you want to add all the things you have created in 2.0 to "Chaos Mode" in 1.0, then that sounds swell. 2.0 has been a novelty to the community, so with confining most of the 2.0 additions to "Chaos Mode", you could realistically add all of these new roles to 1.0 without upsetting the Actual Meta. My concern is obviously the Actual Meta, and the only role worthy of adding to that would be Poisoner.

    A criticism I have of some of your roles and why they are incompatible with Mafia can sometimes be reduced to simply the name of the role being out of theme. Mafia's "theme" has always been The Godfather, crime noir, criminals vs police. Some of these roles seem to stray from that, a lot of the new 2.0 roles sound like they belong in World of Warcraft and not Mafia. Enchantress, Armorsmith, Oracle, bruh this is a modern crime game.

    But yeah, for real, just add Poisoner, give him a NI checkbox, and take it from there. Don't look at this like one big patch, look at it like a series of patches. We are ADDING to 1.0, versus creating something new.
    Last edited by lawson; July 25th, 2021 at 08:40 AM.

  9. #9

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    What I was talking about was making another account to avoid receiving 30 private messages from random people when I join a game, that's not an uncommon thing to do. Only a few people posts bugs/feedback/suggestions to their proper places so they assume I'll remember them if they're whispered to me in-game or something.
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  10. #10

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Ok, that's cool. I just want you to know the perspective I am coming from. I will play this game until I can't anymore. You see how I edited my post? I actually wanted to suggest Omni-Jester to 1.0 as well, but honestly it's just a novelty. Even though I want to see it, it will probably make the game less fun overall because it's game breaking. I critique my own ideas as well.

    I want the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 to be a success, which is why I am participating so much. It's also why I'm not pulling any punches, because we need to be honest in order to have a good finished product.

  11. #11

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson View Post
    Thanks for keeping this thread going. I think, honestly, we need to focus on adding to the current Mafia 1.0 versus creating a whole new meta with Mafia 2.0. That means we need to take things slow, perhaps introduce things slow. I can't get anyone to join my 2.0 lobbies anymore, they prefer 1.0 overwhelmingly.

    For me, with this beta, the focus has always been not on novelty, but in something that can last. This is why I was one of the first to create my own 2.0 save and tinker with balance on my own terms. At it's current state, 2.0 is a novelty that people enjoy a lot while it is new, but they want to return to a baseline. This is the baseline I have been trying to create with the 2.0 meta.

    That being said, I think the only role that is truly worthy of being added to Maf 1.0 at this state is Poisoner. It's basically the role that Arsonist should have been. If given a NI option checkbox, it would fit in nicely with other NK in the current Mafia 1.0 meta. We may need to look at this not as one big patch, but as a series of patches, where roles are introduced slowly. I think the reality is you guys are going to have to accept that a lot of your ideas will need to be heavily reworked to be something that people will play again, again and again.

    I think you should start by adding Poisoner, and seeing how that turns out. There are a lot of good ideas you guys have, but you have to understand the reality of this. 95% of your ideas won't be worthy of becoming a permanent addition to 1.0. Frinckles tells me "Once I drop this patch you'll never see me again." This attitude is fucking garbage. I'm gonna keep playing this game for maybe another decade if it's still popular in 2030. Listen to me, because I'm never going to leave. I want to see this thing survive. Don't drop a patch and leave just to fulfill some stupid ego creative bullshit you have. I plan to play forever. So I really hope you take me seriously.

    That being said, there are two metas you can play with. The "Goofy Meta" and the "Actual Meta". The "Actual Meta" is 933/8331, baseline Mafia play, which MUST remain consistent (or improved) if the game is to survive. The "Goofy Meta", is a lot of the shit you guys introduce in 2.0, like Chaos Mode. If you want to add all the things you have created in 2.0 to "Chaos Mode" in 1.0, then that sounds swell. 2.0 has been a novelty to the community, so with confining most of the 2.0 additions to "Chaos Mode", you could realistically add all of these new roles to 1.0 without upsetting the Actual Meta. My concern is obviously the Actual Meta, and the only role worthy of adding to that would be Poisoner.

    A criticism I have of some of your roles and why they are incompatible with Mafia can sometimes be reduced to simply the name of the role being out of theme. Mafia's "theme" has always been The Godfather, crime noir, criminals vs police. Some of these roles seem to stray from that, a lot of the new 2.0 roles sound like they belong in World of Warcraft and not Mafia. Enchantress, Armorsmith, Oracle, bruh this is a modern crime game.

    But yeah, for real, just add Poisoner, give him a NI checkbox, and take it from there. Don't look at this like one big patch, look at it like a series of patches. We are ADDING to 1.0, versus creating something new.
    Well, the issue you seem to have with the new roles are roleplay flavour? (If you look at forum Mafia you will find most games don't actually have Mafia flavour also lol)
    If that's really an issue, name changes can always occur. Armoursmith>Tailor or Oracle>Snitch.
    This isn't a modern crime game. It's a text based game upon deception and Mafia is just a roleplay flavour put onto it.

    The chaos modes you talked about, are just that. Modes, not going to be part of the main game, more like a fun side option people can play now and again.

    Mafia 2.0 only exists is because Frinckles has to translate and understanding the patch work coding that D.R. created. And they didn't want to put the updates into Mafia 1.0 because it risked breaking the game. The end goal is just to replace Mafia 1.0 with 2.0 once it's been polished.
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  12. #12

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Armoursmith is fine as it is. Oracle's name should be changed to Witness or Snitch.
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  13. #13

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    All those little things like the name and theme are not all that important, very small changes. I guess everyone has an opinion. I just think it would be wisest to approach this with the idea "ADD to 1.0, don't create a new game". Take it slow, add one or two roles at a time, and balance the roles as they are added. That's how DR did it.

    Everyone that still plays this have thousands of games. We're all veterans. We're all hooked on a specific game. All the new roles are fun for a few games but once that fun expires people are gonna want to fall back to something. If you remove what everyone falls back on (1.0), then people are just gonna quit.

    Or if you really want to just take the reigns and make your own game, then don't patch 1.0 with 2.0, just have 2.0 be a separate entity. Let the people decide. If 2.0 was really a better game, people would pick it. I made a 2.0 lobby the other night when no 1.0 lobbies existed, spammed the hell out of Arcade with lobby links, watched as a 1.0 lobby was created, and filled up, and NOBODY joined my lobby. I was SPAMMING it. Take that how you want to.

    Armorsmith > Armorer. Smith makes me think blacksmith, forge and anvil. Armorer is the guy at the police station who works behind a cage and hands out the vests and guns to the cops. There is most definitely a theme in Mafia, there is no magic aside from "Witch". The line between the new roles and old roles is so easy, it's so easy to tell which roles are new, because they just don't look like something DR would come up with. Poisoner is the only one that is simple, balanced, and named properly to be added to 1.0 and have 1.0 still feel like DR's Mafia.


    This is the Poisoner win screen I made. I tried to copy DR's style HEAVILY, because it is SUPER important to me to make that line between old and new content to be as hard to see as possible. I want things to be new, but feel old. Does that make sense? Like trying a new beer you've never had before. It's something you're already comfortable with, so you find appreciation in the nuance.
    UG0VSLF.png
    Last edited by lawson; July 28th, 2021 at 01:51 AM.

  14. #14

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson View Post
    All those little things like the name and theme are not all that important, very small changes. I guess everyone has an opinion. I just think it would be wisest to approach this with the idea "ADD to 1.0, don't create a new game". Take it slow, add one or two roles at a time, and balance the roles as they are added. That's how DR did it.

    Everyone that still plays this have thousands of games. We're all veterans. We're all hooked on a specific game. All the new roles are fun for a few games but once that fun expires people are gonna want to fall back to something. If you remove what everyone falls back on (1.0), then people are just gonna quit.

    Or if you really want to just take the reigns and make your own game, then don't patch 1.0 with 2.0, just have 2.0 be a separate entity. Let the people decide. If 2.0 was really a better game, people would pick it. I made a 2.0 lobby the other night when no 1.0 lobbies existed, spammed the hell out of Arcade with lobby links, watched as a 1.0 lobby was created, and filled up, and NOBODY joined my lobby. I was SPAMMING it. Take that how you want to.

    Armorsmith > Armorer. Smith makes me think blacksmith, forge and anvil. Armorer is the guy at the police station who works behind a cage and hands out the vests and guns to the cops. There is most definitely a theme in Mafia, there is no magic aside from "Witch". The line between the new roles and old roles is so easy, it's so easy to tell which roles are new, because they just don't look like something DR would come up with. Poisoner is the only one that is simple, balanced, and named properly to be added to 1.0 and have 1.0 still feel like DR's Mafia.


    This is the Poisoner win screen I made. I tried to copy DR's style HEAVILY, because it is SUPER important to me to make that line between old and new content to be as hard to see as possible. I want things to be new, but feel old. Does that make sense? Like trying a new beer you've never had before. It's something you're already comfortable with, so you find appreciation in the nuance.
    UG0VSLF.png
    Well put! You've eloquently compounded and described the very issue that was nagging me, but I couldn't put it as fluently into words. The game in the end should be about first favoring/catering towards the veterans that have put in so many hours and time towards the game they love, and part of that aspect is making sure some of the old devices of the old game are continued in the 2.0 patch. With that being said, I'd like to add that while Frinckles and many others involved in the project of 2.0 are trying their best to make it polished and as "mafia" as it can possibly become, it is up to the community's hands to steer that development towards what should be improved upon, and I think you've addressed the core issue of why many old mafia veterans tend to prefer playing 1.0 over 2.0.

    Edit: grammar
    Last edited by WrathCyber; August 5th, 2021 at 09:11 PM.

  15. #15

    Re: General Beta Feedback

    Quote Originally Posted by WrathCyber View Post
    Well put! You've eloquently compounded and described the very issue that was nagging me, but I couldn't put it as fluently into words. The game in the end should be about first favoring/catering towards the veterans that have put in so many hours and time towards the game they love, and part of that aspect is making sure some of the old devices of the old game are continued in the 2.0 patch. With that being said, I'd like to add that while Frinckles and many others involved in the project of 2.0 are trying their best to make it polished and as "mafia" as it can possibly become, it is up to the community's hands to steer that development towards what should be improved upon, and I think you've addressed the core issue of why many old mafia veterans tend to prefer playing 1.0 over 2.0.

    Edit: grammar
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