Ramblings on improving as a player
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  1. #1

    Ramblings on improving as a player

    In general player improvement is a self-maximizing process. Effort is taken until the point the objective is achieved and 'improvement' is done through the lens of extensive Memory Distortions https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bo...y-distortions/ creating massive bias in how a player sees what they did well/poorly. Then players tell themselves something, usuially basic like 'I shouldn't fall for X next game', 'I knew I was right here and should use that tell more' or at worst 'Other players should learn to listen to me next time.' Then the next game gets played with these unfounded lessons built from biased information.

    I personally feel this is terrible and the thing that cripples most players growth. This leads me into why I push for re-reading games. In doing so you will see your reads as they unfold. What you got right and what you got wrong without memory bias. You also will be able to see what you did that resulted in other players reading you without the bias of questioning if they were scum painting you as well as the things other players did that you should have picked up on.

    With that information gathered without the unavoidable lens of memory distortions you can draw more objective conclusions about what you did well, what you did poorly, and what you should do different in the future. This also enables you to target what you did poorly so you know what to focus on for improvement (because the first step to solving a problem is identifying the problem.)

    Then next game you play you have some ability to measure your improvement establishing a recursive process for player growth that will be far more effective than blundering through games and teaching yourself bad habits along the way.

    In my opinion anyways : )

  2. #2

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    I imagine there's maybe 1 in 100 people for whom improving is enough important to re-read the game for it. On the other hand, there's some for whom the games are important enough to re-read it after flips. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    I guess that's nearly the same?


    There's something that I don't quite understand.
    In other strategy games, let's say StarCraft, watching your own replays do you jack shit for learning how to play better. You have to either watch replays of better players or have better players watch yours.
    Why is it so different in FM?

    The only other game I know where analyzing your own games is efficient and effective - it's Chess. But only under the condition that you spend an abysmal amount of time analyzing it. And even then you have to check it afterwards with a computer or a better player.

    With that in mind, there is or was actually one extremely good player who offers/-ed help in that regard:
    https://forum.mafia451.com/t/evaluat...llibereth/4797
    Basic rundown of how he offered to help:
    -you play a game. during the midst of it you regularly send him your reads and your reasonings for it.
    -after the game is over, he gives his input on those reads or the lack of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  3. #3

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    I imagine there's maybe 1 in 100 people for whom improving is enough important to re-read the game for it. On the other hand, there's some for whom the games are important enough to re-read it after flips. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    I guess that's nearly the same?


    There's something that I don't quite understand.
    In other strategy games, let's say StarCraft, watching your own replays do you jack shit for learning how to play better. You have to either watch replays of better players or have better players watch yours.
    Why is it so different in FM?

    The only other game I know where analyzing your own games is efficient and effective - it's Chess. But only under the condition that you spend an abysmal amount of time analyzing it. And even then you have to check it afterwards with a computer or a better player.

    With that in mind, there is or was actually one extremely good player who offers/-ed help in that regard:
    https://forum.mafia451.com/t/evaluat...llibereth/4797
    Basic rundown of how he offered to help:
    -you play a game. during the midst of it you regularly send him your reads and your reasonings for it.
    -after the game is over, he gives his input on those reads or the lack of them.
    Actually watching your replays is a huge part of improving in Starcraft. People also pay great players to watch and critique their play. WinterGaming is a GM thats popular on Twitch who will do it live for a cost (although you should have thick skin because he will dunk on you in the process.)

    Even if you don't want to re-read the whole thing you could simply iso yourself or the scum players to see what you missed. I get what your saying that it takes a huge effort to do so and probably means 2-6 hours of reading but for try-hards who easily dump 25-50 hours of effort into a game its not such a cost. You did bring up an interesting point that there could be strong value in reading through high level games.

    I have seen that before. Someone poked me about it when I was talking about the overlying concept for what I have been working on. The main difference is I would like to provide players with a way for them to progress themselves while that person seems to charge for them to help you.

    The other side I want to ramble about down the road is notes but thats a topic for another day

  4. #4

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    Someone with my reading speed wouldn't get to 500 posts in 6 hours. (Literally almost half of that of an average adult)
    Well, ok, maybe slight exaggeration.

    Wrt notes though, I find time management to be tricky for me. I could contemplate an check on everything that I read. I could take notes of every thought I have from posts that induce thoughts or feelings in me. The former is helpful always, the latter is helpful for later in the game. But doing either of them makes me never be up to current. Last 3 games I ended with not reading like half of D1.
    It's like the only way a slow reader like me could be up to current in even a moderately active game, I'd have to either thread sit or skim through everything. Maybe even do it like someone on SC2Mafia - not even read the text really, just the tone and judge it in relation to meta and context.
    Last edited by OzyWho; July 17th, 2021 at 04:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  5. #5

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Someone with my reading speed wouldn't get to 500 posts in 6 hours. (Literally almost half of that of an average adult)
    Well, ok, maybe slight exaggeration.

    Wrt notes though, I find time management to be tricky for me. I could contemplate an check on everything that I read. I could take notes of every thought I have from posts that induce thoughts or feelings in me. The former is helpful always, the latter is helpful for later in the game. But doing either of them makes me never be up to current. Last 3 games I ended with not reading like half of D1.
    It's like the only way a slow reader like me could be up to current in even a moderately active game, I'd have to either thread sit or skim through everything. Maybe even do it like someone on SC2Mafia - not even read the text really, just the tone and judge it in relation to meta and context.
    That's the thing. You answered your own question. It's time management.
    There were some people who are too busy to play the game and they're getting scum-read bcos of it.
    And I'll add that people are different, people like me who hate reading (pref. listening or watching) plays FM at a disadvantage.

    An sc2 (and other games) would take around 5-50 minutes to watch. On the other hard, re-reading the entire FM would take hours, or even a day (not exaggerating). So yeah, the question that comes to your mind is.. is it worth it?
    What I got for my 18th Birthday

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

  6. #6

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuesford View Post
    That's the thing. You answered your own question. It's time management.
    There were some people who are too busy to play the game and they're getting scum-read bcos of it.
    And I'll add that people are different, people like me who hate reading (pref. listening or watching) plays FM at a disadvantage.

    An sc2 (and other games) would take around 5-50 minutes to watch. On the other hard, re-reading the entire FM would take hours, or even a day (not exaggerating). So yeah, the question that comes to your mind is.. is it worth it?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhgwIhB58PA

    And yes, it's very long to read an FM game. But if you find it fun, you can do it to improve. If you don't find it fun, then it's not a big deal (99 % of people don't do it anyway).
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  7. #7

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    Well, if you don't feel like reading 50 pages worth of stuff here's what I noticed for this site...


    Ask intelligent questions and respond to any questions given to you in a short and concise way without appearing too wordy.

    If you notice strange behavior point it out and dig into it with questions/ take note of it in a doc of some kind

    Have a document of some kind where you can jot down post numbers and reads. Doing that made me go from scumread 24/7 to townread most by most players, and it only takes ~5-10 minutes daily to keep up with.

    Keep in mind these suggestions are mainly to get townread and not so much improve your reads, for that everyone has their own method.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    I feel like I'm watching a horror movie and the protag. group is exploring an old house or something and everything is super quiet, but you know something bad is about to happen. Mafia man is about to come out from behind the basement furnace and gun down varcron right in front of me. And there will be nothing I can do.

  8. #8

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    Well, if you don't feel like reading 50 pages worth of stuff here's what I noticed for this site...


    Ask intelligent questions and respond to any questions given to you in a short and concise way without appearing too wordy.

    If you notice strange behavior point it out and dig into it with questions/ take note of it in a doc of some kind

    Have a document of some kind where you can jot down post numbers and reads. Doing that made me go from scumread 24/7 to townread most by most players, and it only takes ~5-10 minutes daily to keep up with.

    Keep in mind these suggestions are mainly to get townread and not so much improve your reads, for that everyone has their own method.
    Tbh, unless I'm Mafia I'd rather die early with an impact on the game rather than survive till the end by floating about.

    I'd imagine getting killed N1 thx to your influence is the best way to finish the game? I don't think I never got that though.

    Are there people who want to survive till the end? Probably, but I want to think that most don't..
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  9. #9

    Re: Ramblings on improving as a player

    Surviving may not be a must (and in some rare circumstances, it may even be a hindrance), but usually, you should always seek self-preservation and survival, since you know your own alignment. Obviously, this doesn't apply to nightkills when you're a vanilla role in a non-vanilla game.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

 

 

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