Do Admins actually play arcade?

[Veliaire]

I was warned for racism because my name was "money grubbing jew" and I said "kike". Others are being banned for racism too. So I ask the question, do admin actually play Arcade? I don't mean every once in a while.. but do they actually play? It takes FOREVER to get a game started. This arcade game is pretty much dead and relies heavily on regulars to get games going... and so you think its a good idea to thin the already barebones community because people say words you don't like? Doesn't seem too smart. Maybe admins should actually play the game sometimes and see how hard it is to get a game started, then maybe you would think twice before banning people for saying naughty words.

MrMostache knows, I see him in lobbies often, waiting patiently with the rest of us, sometimes up to 30 minutes... but the rest of the admins in here, I'm not too sure about.

[Renegade]

Cry moar.

[DJarJar]

as far as i can tell, the mod is currently the most active it has been in a couple years

using scelight i see that i have played 50 games with you. Hi!

[Veliaire]

So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?

[Renegade]

So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?

Letting griefers and game ruiners stick around just cuz you need players doesn't make for a good game.

Jeebus.

[DJarJar]

So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?

You don’t appear to have been banned. A main goal of moderation is rehabilitation, not removing people Willy nilly.

[Veliaire]

You don’t appear to have been banned. A main goal of moderation is rehabilitation, not removing people Willy nilly.

No, I'm not banned. I logged in today to find out I was warned for racism. So I got on to forums to see what it was all about, and after I submitted my appeal I decided to see all the recent bannings and noticed a couple of people were banned for racism. So I thought I'd give my view about what I think of censorship.

[Tauntshaman]

No, I'm not banned. I logged in today to find out I was warned for racism. So I got on to forums to see what it was all about, and after I submitted my appeal I decided to see all the recent bannings and noticed a couple of people were banned for racism. So I thought I'd give my view about what I think of censorship.

Same here I afked for about a year from apr 2020 to may 2021 and BAM! I'm warned for impersonating moderators in june 2020, after doing it for around 200 times LOL.

[Helz]

So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?

For my personal opinion its a social game. Speech is just about all there is. I think its less about banning people for saying things you do not agree with and more about creating an inclusive environment community. There are many controversial views in this world and there are places where its appropriate to discuss them. Maybe you should chill on your anti-Semitism or political nonsense in a video game and instead embrace enjoying the game with other people.

If you are not playing to bond with other people and enjoy a mutually pleasurable experience you may have picked the wrong game.

[Veliaire]

For my personal opinion its a social game. Speech is just about all there is. I think its less about banning people for saying things you do not agree with and more about creating an inclusive environment community. There are many controversial views in this world and there are places where its appropriate to discuss them. Maybe you should chill on your anti-Semitism or political nonsense in a video game and instead embrace enjoying the game with other people.

If you are not playing to bond with other people and enjoy a mutually pleasurable experience you may have picked the wrong game.

You're right, speech is all we have. Telling people what they can't say is not being inclusive, its forcing your own world view on them. If someone doesn't like what I say, that's there is a -mute feature.

And how I enjoy my games is my own business. I don't play this to "bond" with anyone. I have real friends for that. I play this game to deceive people and win, which is the entire point of the game.

[Helz]

You're right, speech is all we have. Telling people what they can't say is not being inclusive, its forcing your own world view on them. If someone doesn't like what I say, that's there is a -mute feature.

And how I enjoy my games is my own business. I don't play this to "bond" with anyone. I have real friends for that. I play this game to deceive people and win, which is the entire point of the game.

Just curious

Do you think there is no problem in expressing profanity? How about Racism? How about Sexism? How about Pedophilia? How about genocide? How about Rape? How about sharing how to kill people? How about saying things to instigate panic to hurt large groups of people? How about assonating a president? How about building bombs? How about how to wage biological warfare? How about creating nuclear weapons?

Where should the line of free speech be drawn? Or should I be free as an explosive expert from the Marines to share my knowledge in bomb building to kill people I don't like with impunity? How about someone with the knowledge of how to build a nuke or wage biological warfare? The line has to be drawn somewhere imo and yes I am taking this to an extreme but its because the question you are asking is one of a spectrum while you are phrasing it as 'If'

And where should that line be drawn in a video game where people simply come together to have an enjoyable social experience. Sure we all want to win but there is a reason pretty much every large multiplayer platform bans acts like real life threats. There are moral and ethical lines that can be violated and you getting a warning here is an example of that.

At the same time I have made some effort to ask the questions behind what you claim to want to the community, as well as some very pertinent ones to challenge your personal belief structure.

[theoneceko]

You're right, speech is all we have. Telling people what they can't say is not being inclusive, its forcing your own world view on them. If someone doesn't like what I say, that's there is a -mute feature.

And how I enjoy my games is my own business. I don't play this to "bond" with anyone. I have real friends for that. I play this game to deceive people and win, which is the entire point of the game.

by spamming what you spam, you're forcing your own worldview, which is that saying "gas all jews" is acceptable, on other people.

"force" is a strong word here. mods aren't forcing you what to believe by warning you. you're not forcing me to think anti-semitism is okay by spamming "gas all jews." for that reason, i think "influence" is a better word.


i understand the appeal of social ignorance and that what u say in a video game has VERY VERY little impact, but it's just not cool to say things like that. mods don't warn you bc they've something personal against you. they just saw a lot of reports on racism (a group of people have spoken, even if you don't agree with them) and decided to simply file the reports.

personally, i don't understand why ppl have to say the n-word or other things to troll. UWOWU HEWWO!!! is a much better alternative. i don't think every conservative is evil, but the current trend towards eliminating racism in this game and real world isn't bad.

[theoneceko]

So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?

iirc more ppl started playing, at least temporarily, when admins recently handed out those bans for racism. mafia got to top 10 for the first time in years.

there are ppl who don't play bc of all the hate speech in the mod, whether it's actually meant or not.

ozy and i are currently off the mod bc of it. also, someone just made a thread which said this game has a real problem with racism. i assume they stopped playing, bc ppl are still spamming a lot of dumb shit

[Helz]

iirc more ppl started playing, at least temporarily, when admins recently handed out those bans for racism. mafia got to top 10 for the first time in years.

there are ppl who don't play bc of all the hate speech in the mod, whether it's actually meant or not.

ozy and i are currently off the mod bc of it. also, someone just made a thread which said this game has a real problem with racism. i assume they stopped playing, bc ppl are still spamming a lot of dumb shit

@Veliaire

So far expressed opinions reflect that a change in your behavior would equate lower lobby wait times instead of a change in moderators behavior towards 'censorship.'

I can also say I stepped away from playing the mod a year or two back simply because I stopped enjoying the 'culture' I was playing in. There was just too many people spamming offensive things for some sort of shock value. I am curious to see what the rest of the community has to say on the subject.

[Drizzt]

So knowing how hard it is to get a game started most days, why are you banning people for speech? I don't get that. Why have a mute function if you are just going to ban people for saying stuff you don't like?

Not really. I think it was more of a moral stand against the conduct. The conduct that we should all be against, regardless of how frequently it is formally punished, is pedophiliac speech. I don't know a single staff member who needs that to tarnish his personal life if there's ever a major incident somehow. I think this site has a lot of "quantitatively minded" staff, so I get that they don't understand that in management sometimes not making strategic decision is better than making a poor strategic decision. Not saying it was a poor choice, I agree with the spirit of the decision, but it is lsimilar to when the African American and liberal community tried to ban the "n" word a decade ago by holding funerals for it and stuff- that happened some of you won't remember. The attempt just became fodder for trolls. We will never be free of racism or bigotry in mafia, that is too high a goal.

I do believe we have enough people, trolls included, against the mal treatment of vulnerable children to punish that behavior and not lose a critical amount of players. At this point, all sc2 arcade decisions should be weighed against the chance of alienating players and potential players.

It used to be games were round the clock. Then it slipped to games started at noon and ended at 4am. Now, games start at 2pm-5pm and end at 4am. Gradual slippage. If we don't role out 2.0 by the grace of Frinckles, we may run out of the ability to make the switch. Remember, we will lose players before 2.0 attracts players, that is my opinion, but it is the logical sequence of events.

[Helz]

I think its a valid question.

Although 'Do they play' may not be the actual question but rather what should be moderated.

Cost/Benifit

Having racist humor drives away new players and longevity of the game while eliminating regulars for the same actions hurts games.

Is the goal of moderation to ensure game quantity or quality? What level of morality is acceptable for a trade off? How much of the player base is totally cool with racism?

I dont think these questions were really asked but they would be good topics of discussion for the community if they really want this issue addressed so moderation could follow the community's desire.

[Space Milk]

Having racist humor drives away new players and longevity of the game while eliminating regulars for the same actions hurts games.

There are virtually no new players, and those who do play are overwhelmingly open to black and disturbing humor, just look at Arcade General chat or the chat of any random lobby. SC2 is one of few unmoderated games left on the market, and it has cultivated a user base that reflects that - along with collecting "refugees" from other games that have become moderated. Stringent moderator action would actually drive away new players. If we were talking about Battlefield or Halo this would make sense.

[Voss]

There are virtually no new players, and those who do play are overwhelmingly open to black and disturbing humor, just look at Arcade General chat or the chat of any random lobby. SC2 is one of few unmoderated games left on the market, and it has cultivated a user base that reflects that - along with collecting "refugees" from other games that have become moderated. Stringent moderator action would actually drive away new players. If we were talking about Battlefield or Halo this would make sense.

Oh no! The poor victimed racists, (sorry refugees), don't have other games to play.

I call upon the admin staff to allow not only black and Jewish jokes, but also pedophilia role play in the game. Glory to SC2!

[Space Milk]

Oh no! The poor victimed racists, (sorry refugees), don't have other games to play.

I call upon the admin staff to allow not only black and Jewish jokes, but also pedophilia role play in the game. Glory to SC2!

I'm not making a normative statement of who is justified or not. This is simply fact of the matter. StarCraft's current userbase is predominately edgy and tolerant of off-color speech. StarCraft is also seeing no player growth, especially in the arcade. If you all of a sudden start cracking down on this you will end up alienating the majority of players and kill SC2 Mafia, which is already slow to get lobbies as is.

[deathworlds]

I'm not making a normative statement of who is justified or not. This is simply fact of the matter. StarCraft's current userbase is predominately edgy and tolerant of off-color speech. StarCraft is also seeing no player growth, especially in the arcade. If you all of a sudden start cracking down on this you will end up alienating the majority of players and kill SC2 Mafia, which is already slow to get lobbies as is.

We got some statistics that indicate that "the current userbase is predominately edgy and tolerant of off-color speech" is wrong.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...10-790-Replays
If we "alienate" 1-5% of the player base who contribute to almost the entirety of "off-color speech", than good riddance to bad apples.

[Renegade]

Freeze peach only applies to the government lulz.

[DJarJar]

Cute was banned nearly a whole year ago, and I’ve played thousands of games too. Do you have a point of some kind?

[Veliaire]

Cute was banned nearly a whole year ago, and I’ve played thousands of games too. Do you have a point of some kind?

And the fact that he was banned nearly a year ago is supposed to mean something? Or is supposed to have any relevance to what I said? If you need it broken down for you to understand better, my point is that you flip flopped on the issue.

Also, if you played often you'd know how long the wait times are to get a game started. If you use the same name in game as you do on here, I haven't seen you in an arcade game in a long time.

[Oberon]

Nazi is a bit meh. I would have other things to say though, other than Nazi...

[Oberon]

*disappears*

[Oberon]

Oh I agree with what he said here, (on admins and the arcade).

[MrMostache]

This made me realize something:
While Parasite Zeta/Chaos have more toxic communities than Sc2 Mafia, I didn't notice any racism while playing their games.

So I went to their discord to see if they punish for racism, and it turned out they actually did. Note that Parasite is slightly more active than Sc2 Mafia.

[theoneceko]

This made me realize something:
While Parasite Zeta/Chaos have more toxic communities than Sc2 Mafia, I didn't notice any racism while playing their games.

So I went to their discord to see if they punish for racism, and it turned out they actually did. Note that Parasite is slightly more active than Sc2 Mafia.

yes, u can be toxic without being raicst!

[Renegade]

yes, u can be toxic without being raicst!

+1

[Voss]

I'd rather be an admin of dead game than an admin of a racist spewing game.

[Apocist]

by allowing Profanity, Racism, Sexism, Pedophilia, Genocide, and Rape speech to run rampant, you're baring individuals that are affected by those publicly immoralalities from play or at least enjoying the game.

it hurts -others-. but, not using that speech -does not hurt you-

there really is no legit excuse to complain about other than a desire to abuse being denied (only admins and mods may abuse, sarc)

[Oberon]

You ppl and ur fake problems lol

[theoneceko]

You ppl and ur fake problems lol

LOLE!!!!

it's just cringe to let ppl spam the n-word every game.

[Unknown1234]

You ppl and ur fake problems lol

You should try putting yourself in other peoples shoes sometimes.

[OzyWho]

You should try putting yourself in other peoples shoes sometimes.

I remember someone in a -Mafia- game once saying that that they're black and that they find some of the racist jokes funny. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Unknown1234]

I remember someone in a -Mafia- game once saying that that they're black and that they find some of the racist jokes funny. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I’ve seen more people complain about than people who find it entertaining. I don’t remember a mafia game I’ve enjoyed that had racism in it.

[Voss]

I remember someone in a -Mafia- game once saying that that they're black and that they find some of the racist jokes funny. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah same. I'm female and I think some misogynistic jokes are hilarious sometimes.

[oops_ur_dead]

Yeah same. I'm female and I think some misogynistic jokes are hilarious sometimes.

are u girl irl??

[Voss]

You should try putting yourself in other peoples shoes sometimes.

He's referring to OP.

[Unknown1234]

He's referring to OP.

Are you sure?

[Voss]

Are you sure?

Yeah, Oberon's turned a new leaf and isn't being anti-admin cringy for the sake of it.

[OzyWho]

@Veliaire
I recently made a post showing how this change came to be, if you're interested:

since when was racism considered a bannable offense?? there are racists all the time in this game.

It wasn't until recently, and technically still kinda isn't but kinda is.
There was a case recently that was so extreme, it was completely justified and largely supported:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...light=10478739

It's the gateway case. After that, the mods punish the use of bad language much more freely.

Things change dude. Before that 'gateway case' the community consensus was that this sort of thing sucks but ain't nothing can be done because it's not against the rules technically. (it is now though, at least @aamirus added some example of it in the list of bannable offenses)
After that case, the community supports the mods taking action against it for the most part; there are exceptions people though.

People's opinions before the 'gateway case':
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...ns-about-Names

People's opinions after the 'gateway case':
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...es-this-again)

That one thread was before the change and the other was after it - this one, yours, is still a continuation of process and people catching up.


Btw, my post that I quoted - it's just paraphrasing what aamirus has said in that one thread:

Excessive spam has always been reportable under griefing. The only real change recently is adding names like "I RAPE YOUR 6 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER" and "ALL NIGGERS MUST DIE" to name abuse.

Weird question perhaps, but how did that change happen?

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...light=10478739

[Veliaire]

So let me ask you this. Are you going to start banning people for using the words "Faggot" and "Retard", which are also offensive? Or don't those groups deserve the protection of the PC police?

[Unknown1234]

So let me ask you this. Are you going to start banning people for using the words "Faggot" and "Retard", which are also offensive? Or don't those groups deserve the protection of the PC police?

Out of curiosity, what makes you think people aren’t being banned for this?

[Veliaire]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think people aren’t being banned for this?

Because I checked a couple months worth of punished player reports and did not see it listed. The only people punished for speech have been me for naming myself "money-grubbing jew" and saying the K word once, and a few people who have spammed the N word.

[Voss]

So let me ask you this. Are you going to start banning people for using the words "Faggot" and "Retard", which are also offensive? Or don't those groups deserve the protection of the PC police?

The classic slippery slope. We should ban people for using the word "stupid" and "dumb" too, right? Or maybe even when someone votes a staff member? YIKES.

[Veliaire]

The classic slippery slope. We should ban people for using the word "stupid" and "dumb" too, right? Or maybe even when someone votes a staff member? YIKES.

Exactly. Its like how FB and Twitter banned Trump. Next Twitter removed the President of Nigeria's post. Months back they were banning accounts as fake news for talking about the possibility of Corona being created in a lab, and now we are learning that just might be true. When you stifle free speech its always a slipper slope.

[Voss]

Exactly. Its like how FB and Twitter banned Trump. Next Twitter removed the President of Nigeria's post. Months back they were banning accounts as fake news for talking about the possibility of Corona being created in a lab, and now we are learning that just might be true. When you stifle free speech its always a slipper slope.

The arcade isn't a protected realm of free speech ;). This also isn't Twitter with millions of millions of users interacting with each other over a wide variety of cultural topics. We're MAYBE hundreds that interact over a small game.

Nice try at false equivalency though. If you don't like being banned for voting staff members in a game, don't play. I trust and applaud the arcade staff's decisions to draw the line on what they choose to moderate. Their efforts keep the game playable for the silent majority of users that don't want this distasteful behavior.

And as an added bonus, we get dipsticks to create these asinine "but mah free speech" threads for others to dunk upon. Maybe that should be one of the aspects we promote here on sc2mafia.com

[theoneceko]

The arcade isn't a protected realm of free speech ;). This also isn't Twitter with millions of millions of users interacting with each other over a wide variety of cultural topics. We're MAYBE hundreds that interact over a small game.

Nice try at false equivalency though. If you don't like being banned for voting staff members in a game, don't play. I trust and applaud the arcade staff's decisions to draw the line on what they choose to moderate. Their efforts keep the game playable for the silent majority of users that don't want this distasteful behavior.

And as an added bonus, we get dipsticks to create these asinine "but mah free speech" threads for others to dunk upon. Maybe that should be one of the aspects we promote here on sc2mafia.com

i don't think veliaire is some mastermind psychopath. he just got offended at this new rule change.

[theoneceko]

i hope u all realize i am on side veliaire now.

i'm joking