Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?
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  1. #1

    you're banned Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Something I've always gotten a lot of flak for has been the classic "Why don't you give role to Jailor?"

    This is something that pre established mafia theory says one should do so why not?

    Well to explain that we have to dive into how pure Honesty plays into this interaction.

    If one is to be an Honest Man one doesn't have to always give the truth, but MUST never say something one knows to be false, IE tell a lie. Example claiming someone is an arsonist and that you visited them last night when you didn't. Claiming to be a role that you are not etc...

    Now this poses a problem when being jailed because obviously if you are to remain Honest, giving your role all the time would not be beneficial to you.

    For instance if you were a mafia or neutral role, giving your role in jail, obviously lets the Jailor know he's free to execute, which means giving role is basically borderline gamethrowing in these circumstances.

    So what about "Just don't give role when you're evil" but this runs into the same problem where if the only time you don't give a role is when you're evil, you might as well have been claiming evil anyway.

    Now if you're an Honest Man, you likely prefer town roles so you don't run into this problem, so logically you would think it makes sense to just claim roles all the time, and this would be the correct move, if Jailor was the only role that could kidnap people.

    Unfortunately as well all know Interrogators exist complicating the situation.

    If you prefer town and always give your role, Interros will consistently know they're making a good choice to execute you, so giving role all the time is bad then? Yes.

    As a player who is often town, it becomes less likely for regular jailors who play mafia often to jail you as they expect you to be town. It also becomes more likely for interrogators to jail you as they believe you to be town, which is why it is best for the Honest Man to stay consistent , and not give a role in jail.

    When doesn't know who is jailing them, assuming Interrogator is always beneficial as not giving information to the interrogator doesn't let them know if they've made the right choice, and potentially wastes an interro execute on a shitty role like a spy. Additionally some extremely cautious Interros, will not waste an execute on no role claimers potentially believing them to be fellow scum.

    Of course there's always the chance a Jailor does jail you, and of course not giving a role is a death sentence right? Yes it is, but it's necessary operating risk. If you're a player who is often town, slowly regular Jailors overtime will understand that jailing you is essentially going to the slots and hoping they get lucky. After you proceed to roll town 9 times out of 10. This doesn't mean that you won't get jailed by failors, if you play mafia enough you'll eventually piss someone off who will spite jail you, but if you get spite jailed giving a role isn't going to save you. People who spite jail will care more about just getting to kill you, than they do about winning the game. Afterall if you've previously jailed a player and they were town 18 times out of 20, the only reason you would keep jailing them is if you disliked them or enjoyed executing town as a Jailor.

    The final thing to note is that as an Honest Man it's important to be consistent. The only way regular players will learn about the new reality they find themselves in is consistent play, if you give a role only sometimes they won't be able to build a pattern from your behavior and will continue to jail you at a normal rate. You have to drill into them that if they choose to jail you, they are given a 1 in 10 chance of actually killing an evil and the only way to do that is by being consistent, and never claiming.

    Now of course if you're a regular player of Mafia who is able to lie, this thread does not apply to you. As you can claim town as evil.

    I only made it to explain why Honest Players can't operate under the same rules after months of "Why you never give role in Jail!1!31!!!!"

    Shoutout to my spite jailors @invictus @Clue @Altech @Akaskr and others!
    Last edited by ZZorange; June 1st, 2021 at 02:07 AM.
    The only townie good enough to get banned for game-throwing in games that he wins.

  2. #2

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Depends on the role. If I'm an important town role, I lie about my role. That way if it's a kidnapper he won't execute.
    That being said. You should definitely always claim a role.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  3. #3

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Depends on the role. If I'm an important town role, I lie about my role. That way if it's a kidnapper he won't execute.
    That being said. You should definitely always claim a role.
    jailor is always a higher percentage than kidnapper ffs.
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  4. #4

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    jailor is always a higher percentage than kidnapper ffs.
    Doesn't matter when you encounter a kidnapper.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  5. #5

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Doesn't matter when you encounter a kidnapper.
    jailor is always a higher percentage than kidnapper

    you're the type of person that would claim doc to a jailor when you're actually mayor. okay dude
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  6. #6

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    This is a guy who argued half an hour in grave chat that he'll never claim his role, whilst also always preferring town roles + blacklisting evil roles + picking same name, all to teach everyone that he's always town, therefore shouldn't claim, therefore ruining the spirit of the game.

    What I want to know is what is all this gibberish in this thread about when your real intentions for not claiming are entirely different?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  7. #7

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    I noticed you tagged this thread with the game theory tag. So I will approach it from a game theory perspective.

    The Honest Prisoner's Dilemma:
    (This is nothing like the prisoner's dilemma, the name is a pun, leave me alone)





    You can think of alpha as the gain you get from not being auto-executed by a town Jailor for not claiming a role.
    You can think of beta as the gain you get from not revealing your role to a regular player that rolled kidnapper and know you're town, so they're executing you no matter what you say.
    You can think of gamma as the gain you get from not revealing your role to a new player that rolled kidnapper and doesn't know what you are, so they might spare you because you didn't claim a role - like what a neut evil caught in the headlights might do.

    And here's the issue with the Honest Prisoner remaining silent:
    The ration between regular players that know what you prefer/blacklist, and new players that don't is PROBABLY somewhere around 1 to 1. Being generous we can even say that there are twice as many regular players that have played enough to know your meta as new players.

    We'll be generous again and assume that the expected number of jailors is twice the expected number of kidnappers. This is being VERY generous - it's rare to see a setup like that, the ratio is usually closer to 4:1. But alpha is certainly greater than gamma, which means Ja - Ky > a - even when being very generous in your favor.

    Which means in order for the ratio to be greater than 1, you need at the very least for 14 beta/alpha to be greater than 1, and beta represents the utility gain from staying silent rather than giving a regular player that knows you're town your role.

    They are executing you anyway if they are a regular player that jailed you because they know you're town. The only utility you could possibly get here is if they ALSO have a Janitor and they perhaps decide they want to sanitize your role as well?

    But even that utility gain is extremely marginal when compared to the utility gain you get from alpha (not auto-dying to town jailors)

    So as a result it is very, very unlikely that 14 beta/alpha is greater than 1. And this was with all the most generous assumptions in place, in reality it's probably not even close and remaining silent is an inferior strategy.

    TL;DR The solution to the Honest Man's prisoner dilemma is to give your role every time. Remaining silent does NOT get the Lag's Game Theory Analysis seal of approval.
    Last edited by Lag; June 1st, 2021 at 06:45 AM.

  8. #8

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Now there are obviously corner cases in which remaining silent is a viable strategy.

    • If N = 0, then the second to last inequality is always true as the right side is equal to zero, therefore E[S] > E[C]
    • If K >> J, eg if 2 jailors are dead and you're jailed anyway, almost certainly by a kidnapper at that point
    • If beta is unusually large because you were a town power role with an important last will (e.g bus driver) AND you know mafia has a Janitor + Kidnapper AND mafia doesn't already know you're bus driver, so they'd only sanitize you if you reveal you're bus driver AND there's likely no town jailors still alive because there's 2 in the graveyard. But you can start to see how the stars have to align to truly make beta large enough to offset alpha

  9. #9

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Something else to add: this was all assuming a night 1 setting. The 14 in the inequality comes from a new player randomly jailing one of the 14 other players. That 14 will be set to the number of players remaining in the game minus 1. Additionally as the game goes on, gamma decreases as the utility you get from a kidnapper thinking your scum is much less if he's already used his execute - both of these factors make remaining silent in jail on nights 2+ THAT much more difficult to justify.

  10. #10

  11. #11

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by LagAttack View Post
    I noticed you tagged this thread with the game theory tag. So I will approach it from a game theory perspective.

    Spoiler : post :
    The Honest Prisoner's Dilemma:
    (This is nothing like the prisoner's dilemma, the name is a pun, leave me alone)





    You can think of alpha as the gain you get from not being auto-executed by a town Jailor for not claiming a role.
    You can think of beta as the gain you get from not revealing your role to a regular player that rolled kidnapper and know you're town, so they're executing you no matter what you say.
    You can think of gamma as the gain you get from not revealing your role to a new player that rolled kidnapper and doesn't know what you are, so they might spare you because you didn't claim a role - like what a neut evil caught in the headlights might do.

    And here's the issue with the Honest Prisoner remaining silent:
    The ration between regular players that know what you prefer/blacklist, and new players that don't is PROBABLY somewhere around 1 to 1. Being generous we can even say that there are twice as many regular players that have played enough to know your meta as new players.

    We'll be generous again and assume that the expected number of jailors is twice the expected number of kidnappers. This is being VERY generous - it's rare to see a setup like that, the ratio is usually closer to 4:1. But alpha is certainly greater than gamma, which means Ja - Ky > a - even when being very generous in your favor.

    Which means in order for the ratio to be greater than 1, you need at the very least for 14 beta/alpha to be greater than 1, and beta represents the utility gain from staying silent rather than giving a regular player that knows you're town your role.

    They are executing you anyway if they are a regular player that jailed you because they know you're town. The only utility you could possibly get here is if they ALSO have a Janitor and they perhaps decide they want to sanitize your role as well?

    But even that utility gain is extremely marginal when compared to the utility gain you get from alpha (not auto-dying to town jailors)

    So as a result it is very, very unlikely that 14 beta/alpha is greater than 1. And this was with all the most generous assumptions in place, in reality it's probably not even close and remaining silent is an inferior strategy.

    TL;DR The solution to the Honest Man's prisoner dilemma is to give your role every time. Remaining silent does NOT get the Lag's Game Theory Analysis seal of approval.

    Jebus - you even used LaTeX. I must spread rep around before giving you more.

  12. #12

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by LagAttack View Post
    TL;DR The solution to the Honest Man's prisoner dilemma is to give your role every time. Remaining silent does NOT get the Lag's Game Theory Analysis seal of approval.
    lmfao get rekt oberon

    UWOWU HEWWO!!!
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  13. #13

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Always claim. Best off lying. Engage in conversation. You can sometimes catch the Jailor/Kidnapper based on their typing style.
    i get jailed a lot n1, so i start trolling extra-hard in a way that connects with the jailors. it's like i'm trying to connect with the troll jailor by trolling a bit myself :^)

    it depends on who jails you, but sometimes that strategy works for me
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  14. #14

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Guys the thread is titled should Honest Men reveal their roles. Literally everyone who has posted here is a known liar and therefore the thread doesn't apply to them. Hence the line at the end

    "Now of course if you're a regular player of Mafia who is able to lie, this thread does not apply to you. As you can claim town as evil."

    However this does let me know who read the full post so,

    Props to LagAttack for reading the whole post!

    However LagAttack obviously mathmatically claiming will result in less failorage but it'll be a constant. With the not claim strategy first off it's the best strategy against kidnapper scum, which is what you want as a townie, because fuck the mafia. "Eat a dick kidnapper" is the best response. Also the not claiming strategy has the potential to become better overtime, as opposed to claiming which as stated stays constant.

    I don't have to be a rocket surgeon to say that Mafia does not have many new players, and the few casual players it has will learn overtime to not jail a man who is Town 94% of his games.

    Keep in mind during all of this we are ignoring any spite jailors in the equation because spite jailors will execute regardless of role as most spite jailors are long timers who know that they are jailing someone who is 94% town but they execute anyway because they hate said player.

    Overtime given enough samples the pool of failors will gradually shrink with the no claim strategy and become the optimal strategy. Which I think is something you missed in your initial evaluation LagAttack the future prospects of the strategy.
    The only townie good enough to get banned for game-throwing in games that he wins.

  15. #15

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    This is a guy who argued half an hour in grave chat that he'll never claim his role, whilst also always preferring town roles + blacklisting evil roles + picking same name, all to teach everyone that he's always town, therefore shouldn't claim, therefore ruining the spirit of the game.

    What I want to know is what is all this gibberish in this thread about when your real intentions for not claiming are entirely different?
    Even in the scenario where I am not 94% Town Ozy, purposefully Jailing someone who you know doesn't give a role is suboptimal Jailor play. If you choose to do it it's just because you're exec happy and want a "guilt free" execute as opposed to potentially gathering information from someone who you know does claim.

    So even in the circumstance where it's not me and not a player who is usually Town, failoring is not the optimal decision.
    The only townie good enough to get banned for game-throwing in games that he wins.

  16. #16

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZZorange View Post
    Guys the thread is titled should Honest Men reveal their roles. Literally everyone who has posted here is a known liar and therefore the thread doesn't apply to them. Hence the line at the end

    "Now of course if you're a regular player of Mafia who is able to lie, this thread does not apply to you. As you can claim town as evil."

    However this does let me know who read the full post so,

    Props to LagAttack for reading the whole post!

    However LagAttack obviously mathmatically claiming will result in less failorage but it'll be a constant. With the not claim strategy first off it's the best strategy against kidnapper scum, which is what you want as a townie, because fuck the mafia. "Eat a dick kidnapper" is the best response. Also the not claiming strategy has the potential to become better overtime, as opposed to claiming which as stated stays constant.

    I don't have to be a rocket surgeon to say that Mafia does not have many new players, and the few casual players it has will learn overtime to not jail a man who is Town 94% of his games.

    Keep in mind during all of this we are ignoring any spite jailors in the equation because spite jailors will execute regardless of role as most spite jailors are long timers who know that they are jailing someone who is 94% town but they execute anyway because they hate said player.

    Overtime given enough samples the pool of failors will gradually shrink with the no claim strategy and become the optimal strategy. Which I think is something you missed in your initial evaluation LagAttack the future prospects of the strategy.
    hmmm

    consider the highly theoretical possibility certain strategies net you more spite jailors. This can make a strategy bad even if on paper perfectly informed players never choose to imprison you unless they're kidnapper or have information / evidence that specifically suggests you're scum.

    also, I think lag's math not only implies more failorage, but that the increased failorage actually offsets the gain in avoided kidnapper executions.

    have you considered having a brief copy-paste explanation of your strategy ready for everyone who jails you? I am certain that'd make everyone totally content with your strategy! An honest man values transparency, after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  17. #17

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    have you considered having a brief copy-paste explanation of your strategy ready for everyone who jails you? I am certain that'd make everyone totally content with your strategy! An honest man values transparency, after all.
    or you could just copy-paste a link to this thread. If they are truly worthy of you they'll be able to read it in <30 seconds, including lag's math.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  18. #18

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZZorange View Post
    Even in the scenario where I am not 94% Town Ozy, purposefully Jailing someone who you know doesn't give a role is suboptimal Jailor play. If you choose to do it it's just because you're exec happy and want a "guilt free" execute as opposed to potentially gathering information from someone who you know does claim.

    So even in the circumstance where it's not me and not a player who is usually Town, failoring is not the optimal decision.
    This game is not about rolling the dice. Sorry, but you’re wrong. 90% town means you’re triad 10% of the time. I’m not giving you a pass just because you’re usually town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  19. #19

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    or you could just copy-paste a link to this thread. If they are truly worthy of you they'll be able to read it in <30 seconds, including lag's math.
    Yes
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  20. #20

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZZorange View Post
    Guys the thread is titled should Honest Men reveal their roles. Literally everyone who has posted here is a known liar and therefore the thread doesn't apply to them. Hence the line at the end

    "Now of course if you're a regular player of Mafia who is able to lie, this thread does not apply to you. As you can claim town as evil."

    However this does let me know who read the full post so,

    Props to LagAttack for reading the whole post!

    However LagAttack obviously mathmatically claiming will result in less failorage but it'll be a constant. With the not claim strategy first off it's the best strategy against kidnapper scum, which is what you want as a townie, because fuck the mafia. "Eat a dick kidnapper" is the best response. Also the not claiming strategy has the potential to become better overtime, as opposed to claiming which as stated stays constant.

    I don't have to be a rocket surgeon to say that Mafia does not have many new players, and the few casual players it has will learn overtime to not jail a man who is Town 94% of his games.

    Keep in mind during all of this we are ignoring any spite jailors in the equation because spite jailors will execute regardless of role as most spite jailors are long timers who know that they are jailing someone who is 94% town but they execute anyway because they hate said player.

    Overtime given enough samples the pool of failors will gradually shrink with the no claim strategy and become the optimal strategy. Which I think is something you missed in your initial evaluation LagAttack the future prospects of the strategy.
    This is ignored because if they are going to execute you either way, then it has no impact on the inequality determining which strategy is better - the terms cancel out since your actions can't change the outcome. But I will include it in the following analysis as it does become relevant when personal emotions are taken into consideration

    What you are describing here are the reasons I suspected you value this strategy: spite and personal emotions

    A spiteful strategy rarely performs better than a non-spiteful strategy (within the timeframe of a single game - more on that later) so my analysis here will explain why someone playing spitefully might view the "Silent" strategy as better than it really is.



    Now the reason why this term was originally omitted is because delta should be zero - your actions will not sway the vengeful Jailor one way or the other, therefore there is no utility to be gained. But when taking into account the personal emotive utility lost from claiming a role to a town jailor just for them to execute you anyway - delta gains a positive value, making the silent strategy more appealing.

    On top of that:
    • Beta measures the utility gained from effectively telling a regular player that is a kidnapper to "eat a dick" - while this has arguably no in-game utility, it does have positive emotional utility as it feels good to tell a kidnapper off. So when taking into account personal emotions, the silent strategy gains a larger beta value.
    • Gamma measures the utility gained from staying silent with a new player that is a kidnapper - again, this value likely increases (although not by nearly as much since calling out a kidnapper is more likely to make them think you're town rather than scum staying silent - so less chance they spare you) the gamma value - again pushing the balance in silent strategy's favor
    • Alpha measures the utility gained from claiming your role to a new town jailor versus staying silent - and again when spite is taken into account, the value of alpha is lower as if they execute you, you get the satisfaction of being right and punishing the Jailor for jailing you as you made the Jailor into a Failor.


    So when personal emotions are taken into account, all of the variables are shifted in the silent strategy's favor. Shifting the strategy from NOT APPROVED to VIABLE

    But that is operating under the assumption that personal emotions and personal utility are just as valuable as actual tangible in-game advantages. Applying some discount factor to personal emotional utility could easily make the strategy switch back to NOT APPROVED from a third party's perspective.

    This is a good point. Let's pull up the original utility inequality again for reference:



    What you are describing is a long term decrease of N and a long term increase of R. Which as seen in the second inequality, obviously makes the strategy more and more viable as the R/N coefficient becomes larger and larger.

    This strategy can therefore be re-labeled as: META-DEPENDENT, NOT APPROVED IN CURRENT META IF that were the end of the story, but it's not...

    Another example of a meta-dependent but currently ill-advised strategy is what I call the Town-Aligned Survivor.
    The idea is that you claim survivor early on but play in a very pro-town fashion as survivor, you scum hunt well, vote with town, help with vca, etc

    In the current meta, this strategy is likely to get you killed anyway despite your helping town, since as soon as town hits the smallest road-block they'll just lynch you, despite you being effective a NI townie.

    But by picking the same name every game, preferring survivor, and then always playing very pro-town as survivor - the meta can be shifted in order to make this strategy viable.

    The key difference though between these two strategies can be summarized in one word: externalities

    In the survivor strategy, the factions that have their win-rate damaged by the off-meta strategy are the survivor themself, and scum. But the survivor has no obligation to help scum, and as they are a solo team, they also have even little obligation to help themselves - free to play however they wish. So the strategy has no externalities.

    Whereas the Silent, but Honest Prisoner strategy has the major externality of severely hurting town every time a town Jailor is forced to failor. The failor made the game theory optimal decision to execute - and it only turned out to be wrong due to their imperfect information - not knowing your meta.

    This significant negative externality degrades the quality of the game for other innocent town players. So that alone is cause to push the strategy back into the NOT APPROVED category.

    But even if it were a zero-externality strategy, it's long term viability would still be dubious - there are thousands of players that play this game, the rate at which players forget information is almost certainly larger than the rate at which you can teach them your meta - therefore getting R/N to be large enough to flip the balance on this strategy is likely impossible as information is lost to the entropy of our forgetful and impermanent minds.
    Last edited by Lag; June 1st, 2021 at 03:32 PM.

  21. #21

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    This game is not about rolling the dice. Sorry, but you’re wrong. 90% town means you’re triad 10% of the time. I’m not giving you a pass just because you’re usually town.
    The thing is though, Jailing is a choice and you only get one choice. So if you're choosing to jail a 90/10 split player you're an objectively bad jailor purposefully making a bad choice, so there's no need to "Give a pass" in this situation. Keep in mind we're talkin about blind n1 jails here so this is purely playing the odds here.
    The only townie good enough to get banned for game-throwing in games that he wins.

  22. #22

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by LagAttack View Post
    What you are describing here are the reasons I suspected you value this strategy: spite and personal emotions
    hewwo !
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  23. #23

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZZorange View Post
    The thing is though, Jailing is a choice and you only get one choice. So if you're choosing to jail a 90/10 split player you're an objectively bad jailor purposefully making a bad choice, so there's no need to "Give a pass" in this situation. Keep in mind we're talkin about blind n1 jails here so this is purely playing the odds here.
    jailors have a right to exec you n1 ffs. discussion closed
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  24. #24

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    hewwo !
    My comment taken out of context sounds more critical that it really is.

    There are a number of types of problems in game theory in which a spiteful strategy is actually an optimal strategy. The classical example of this is the iterated prisoner's dilemma. The Honest Prisoner's dilemma (no relation to the prisoner's dilemma) has a number of parallels to the iterated prisoner's dilemma - some of which ZZorange pointed out and which I touched on in my response post.

    Because of these parallels a spiteful strategy cannot be ruled as suboptimal without additional analysis. (Although in this case my additional analysis still points to it being sub-optimal)


    Additionally how personal emotions affect a player's utility function in a game like mafia is a very interesting topic - I'll probably make a thread about it at some point.

  25. #25

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by LagAttack View Post
    My comment taken out of context sounds more critical that it really is.

    There are a number of types of problems in game theory in which a spiteful strategy is actually an optimal strategy. The classical example of this is the iterated prisoner's dilemma. The Honest Prisoner's dilemma (no relation to the prisoner's dilemma) has a number of parallels to the iterated prisoner's dilemma - some of which ZZorange pointed out and which I touched on in my response post.

    Because of these parallels a spiteful strategy cannot be ruled as suboptimal without additional analysis. (Although in this case my additional analysis still points to it being sub-optimal)


    Additionally how personal emotions affect a player's utility function in a game like mafia is a very interesting topic - I'll probably make a thread about it at some point.
    uwu
    hewwo

    my bren fcking broke wen i saw "24t + s " ;W;
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  26. #26

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    i'd lov to see how "prsonal emtions" ffect how i ply ufu
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  27. #27

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    i overthink when i fm, hmm. i''ll try to afk more. see that how helps me play ;W;
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  28. #28

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    i overthink when i fm, hmm. i''ll try to afk more. see that how helps me play ;W;
    Tbh breaks are kinda mandatory because you can't be clear headed without having forgotten about the game for a few hours at least.
    Without that, your reads would be constant - at that point idk if there's a point in playing if can't change mind and reevaluate.

    Maybe I'm exaggerating. But maybe I'm not?
    Last edited by OzyWho; June 1st, 2021 at 10:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  29. #29

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    @OzyWho i'm able to distance myself when playing now, so i change my mind about slots on-the-go. uwu!
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  30. #30

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    also i believe i need to be mre constnt. i've to stmp my foot.
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  31. #31

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    jailors have a right to exec you n1 ffs. discussion closed
    Also woah now. I never said anywhere that they didn't have a right to do that. Just how I have the same right to call them dumb and state they're objectively bad at math
    The only townie good enough to get banned for game-throwing in games that he wins.

  32. #32

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    You’re more often than not going to get a negative result that ends in you being executed n1 (which I unfortunately see happen to you a lot). Whether its because people think you’re evil or because they’re following a commonly known non-existent ‘mafia guideline’ created by players that most people use.

    You mention that people will eventually realize you are town when you don’t claim, but I’ve seen people think differently and continue to kill based on the fact that you don’t claim in jail and you’re probably a troll. Not to mention it actually gives any kidnapper who knows you’re likely town an out on killing you (assuming there’s no spy). I think your theory could work in a perfect world where you can control every variable, but my guess is that if you obtained enough research for a solid conclusion that the result would be somewhere between a 10-20% survival rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  33. #33

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by LagAttack View Post
    My comment taken out of context sounds more critical that it really is.

    There are a number of types of problems in game theory in which a spiteful strategy is actually an optimal strategy. The classical example of this is the iterated prisoner's dilemma. The Honest Prisoner's dilemma (no relation to the prisoner's dilemma) has a number of parallels to the iterated prisoner's dilemma - some of which ZZorange pointed out and which I touched on in my response post.

    Because of these parallels a spiteful strategy cannot be ruled as suboptimal without additional analysis. (Although in this case my additional analysis still points to it being sub-optimal)


    Additionally how personal emotions affect a player's utility function in a game like mafia is a very interesting topic - I'll probably make a thread about it at some point.
    I believe that player's emotions cloud their judgment. It either turns your utility function into something else entirely (as the player's goal is no longer to win the game), or it gives a massive penalty. I imagine that it gives results that are worse than if you'd randomly picked your night action.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  34. #34

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    You’re more often than not going to get a negative result that ends in you being executed n1 (which I unfortunately see happen to you a lot). Whether its because people think you’re evil or because they’re following a commonly known non-existent ‘mafia guideline’ created by players that most people use.

    You mention that people will eventually realize you are town when you don’t claim, but I’ve seen people think differently and continue to kill based on the fact that you don’t claim in jail and you’re probably a troll. Not to mention it actually gives any kidnapper who knows you’re likely town an out on killing you (assuming there’s no spy). I think your theory could work in a perfect world where you can control every variable, but my guess is that if you obtained enough research for a solid conclusion that the result would be somewhere between a 10-20% survival rate.
    I think that with the knowledge that the person I'm jailing never claims a role in jail - I would look for other methods of determining their alignment. I would try and talk to them and see where they stand. If I'm not satisfied, I would execute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoatseOntheCupboard View Post
    NOT TOWN = NOT INNOCENT

  35. #35

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I think that with the knowledge that the person I'm jailing never claims a role in jail - I would look for other methods of determining their alignment. I would try and talk to them and see where they stand. If I'm not satisfied, I would execute.
    i like this
    "The child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that he believe. He must start out believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in his imagination. I, myself, even in this day and age, have great need of this. Only by having imagination in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”

  36. #36

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I think that with the knowledge that the person I'm jailing never claims a role in jail - I would look for other methods of determining their alignment. I would try and talk to them and see where they stand. If I'm not satisfied, I would execute.
    What if you don't know the person that you're jailing
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Unfunny View Post
    How dare you send me another box of cereal
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    congrats you're an inspiration to pedophiles everywhere
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    You're favourite toast spread is sawdust
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuesford View Post
    I'm sure.. 100% clownbomber16 is scum. I'll suck my own dick if I'm wrong.

  37. #37

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    You’re more often than not going to get a negative result that ends in you being executed n1 (which I unfortunately see happen to you a lot). Whether its because people think you’re evil or because they’re following a commonly known non-existent ‘mafia guideline’ created by players that most people use.

    You mention that people will eventually realize you are town when you don’t claim, but I’ve seen people think differently and continue to kill based on the fact that you don’t claim in jail and you’re probably a troll. Not to mention it actually gives any kidnapper who knows you’re likely town an out on killing you (assuming there’s no spy). I think your theory could work in a perfect world where you can control every variable, but my guess is that if you obtained enough research for a solid conclusion that the result would be somewhere between a 10-20% survival rate.
    Absolutely that's why I referenced Spite Jailors, or people who prefer who use Jailor as a way to kill who they wanna kill, but Spite Jailors don't really factor into anything in the thread because spite Jailors don't care what role you are they are just there to kill you in particular.

    So the question of reveal role or not reveal role isn't relevant.
    The only townie good enough to get banned for game-throwing in games that he wins.

  38. #38

  39. #39

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    If jailors can execute n1. Vigilantes should also be allowed.

    Equal rights for all murderers!
    I haven't known you to troll.
    Is everything alright? How's the family?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  40. #40

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    jailor is always a higher percentage than kidnapper ffs.
    No, no it isn't

    How do I know? Because my setup has a higher kidnapper percentage than jailor, along with a fair few other setups I've seen over the past month or two

    Also why I always fake claim unless gov, since if you execute a gov claim you're asking to get labelled as kidnapper.

  41. #41

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    No, no it isn't

    How do I know? Because my setup has a higher kidnapper percentage than jailor, along with a fair few other setups I've seen over the past month or two

    Also why I always fake claim unless gov, since if you execute a gov claim you're asking to get labelled as kidnapper.
    Fake claiming a gov would let you survive the Jailor, but the metagame is such that most governments would lynch you instantly for lying. As well they should because otherwise it'd be a free jail get away free card for them evils.
    :Thinking:
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  42. #42

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Fake claiming a gov would let you survive the Jailor, but the metagame is such that most governments would lynch you instantly for lying. As well they should because otherwise it'd be a free jail get away free card for them evils.
    :Thinking:
    It would be, which is why if you're invest/LO/det you need to present actual leads or at least have something by the time gov rolls around to confirm you.

    Otherwise you may aswell have just been executed by the jailor/napper anyways.

  43. #43

    Re: Should Honest Men, reveal their roles to Jailor?

    when apo used to play, she would never truthfully reveal their role to anyone except for jailors or PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Look what you have caused. Seems like everyone who posted is now confused about their own gender and are venting their frustration into opinions.

 

 

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