Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?
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  1. #1

    Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Education has always been a focus of mine simply because its the formal process our society uses to prepare individuals to be successful and productive for the rest of their lives. I live in Texas and one massive issue coming up is the huge influx of child immigration. This creates a situation in schools where children who have never been taught what a negative number or a fraction is are dropped into an 8 grade math class taught in a language they do not understand. (My mother actually works with many of these children and this is a specific situation I just discussed with her over lunch that she was working with last week.)

    Something I am curious about is what you guys would consider the 'appropriate' or 'ethical' action to be in this situation. Do you split the children creating a difference in the level of education received which some would consider discrimination? Do you teach the entire group at the level of the lowest individuals knowledge to get them 'caught up' sacrificing the education of those who are well educated? Do you just pass the uneducated through handing them a diploma in the end?

    I personally disagree with opening the borders but if we are going to accept them into our society I believe its a greater evil to destroy their ability to take advantage of the opportunity's our society provides in the long term. If you consider how many studies have reflected that economic disparity is strongly associated with violence and crime its not just an issue for those the system is failing when you are injecting a mass of individuals and setting them up for a life where they will likely struggle to establish income in a very wealthy society. I have been looking a lot lately at the driving factors for whats viewed as 'systemic racism' lately and pretty much feel that this dilemma has the potential to create a whole new generation of inequality for a massive amount of people, which is particularly concerning when I think that is being done to children.

    There is also the associated issue of COVID education. Some children's parents will have taught their kids for a year while others undoubtedly did not. 1 grade level and no language barrier is not as substantial of an issue but the exact same question can be asked of what is appropriate to do with those children who basically took a year off from school.
    Last edited by Helz; April 3rd, 2021 at 11:34 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    I imagine that a lot of countries had to deal with this question during the European migrant crisis. Though can't find any info on it. I guess it makes sense since there was a thousand more urgent things to deal with. I imagine it took forever for any one of them to gain a citizenship or live somewhere else than refugee camps or get a job.

    About your situation though, there is one part I have a problem with, and that is: "they don't understand the language."
    Schools are funded by tax payers money, so they are meant for citizens of the country. Can someone have citizenship without speaking the/any of the countries language/-s?
    I guess it's difficult because it's the parents who got the citizenship and through them their children..
    But I'd say: first they learn the language, then they gain citizenship, then evaluate them case by case and put them where they belong in their education progress.
    Last edited by OzyWho; April 3rd, 2021 at 12:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    from time to time, I act very much like a normal person.

  3. #3

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    I imagine that a lot of countries had to deal with this question during the European migrant crisis. Though can't find any info on it. I guess it makes sense since there was a thousand more urgent things to deal with. I imagine it took forever for any one of them to gain a citizenship or live somewhere else than refugee camps or get a job.

    About your situation though, there is one part I have a problem with, and that is: "they don't understand the language."
    Schools are funded by tax payers money, so they are meant for citizens of the country. Can someone have citizenship without speaking the/any of the countries language/-s?
    I guess it's difficult because it's the parents who got the citizenship and through them their children..
    But I'd say: first they learn the language, then they gain citizenship, then evaluate them case by case and put them where they belong in their education progress.
    So there is actually some formal process in what you mentioned. Australia has designated a national language and basically demanded that to become a citizen of Australia you have to adopt the language and culture that exists there. It fixes many issues you see in other countries but at the cost of sacrificing others culture to participate in your society.
    America has taken the opposite stance. One of the reasons you see government funded considerations for other languages such as Spanish is that America has no national language. Yes we mostly speak English but there is nothing requiring that. The people that come to America bring their culture with them creating a 'melting pot.' It does cause some substantial problems but has some very beautiful aspects for an individuals ability to experience a wide range of cultures in their local environment. I particularly enjoy looking at some of the resulting art from merging cultures.

    All that said, once a child is taken as a citizen there is some obligation by society to provide basic functions- to include education. The fact that its taught in a language they do not understand is a burden on society and not themselves (Although in my limited understanding its commonly addressed by teaching English.)

    Its a very interesting difference in how society's function. I would avoid calling one more 'moral' than the other given it draws back to what different society's value..

  4. #4

  5. #5

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Don't you just put people in classes that match their intelligence? regardless of where they come from?
    In America its based on age. Regardless of their level of education or intelligence they just get told X age = X grade. Then when they hit 'Highschool' (Or grades 9+) the classes open up a bit and can be more specialized.

    There is also Advanced Placement classes for kids that excel but its generally based on standardized testing which focuses more on ability to regurgitate information than critical thinking or pattern recognition (which are generally the focus of intelligence tests)
    Then there is 'special education' classes for those with special needs. That usually focuses more on 'learning disability's' than intelligence as well with categories like Autism being thrown in.

    Not sure if I really answered your question clearly there but thats my limited understanding and experience from years back.

  6. #6

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Don't you just put people in classes that match their intelligence? regardless of where they come from?
    but how do you determine that? a lot of immigrant children struggle with english since it's not their native language - and hence they struggle in all of their classes because the teachers are speaking english and giving out assignments in english etc.

    you might be excellent at math, but that doesn't matter when you have to decipher what a "word problem" is asking or when you need to read/write formal proofs.

    and ultimately it's not feasible for the vast majority of our schools that are already underfunded to offer the material in different languages for everyone
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  7. #7

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    America has ESL (English Second Language) classes, which are used to teach kids English. I actually had to take these. Did the fact I couldn't speak English do irreparable damage to my educational development? No, and there's no reason for me to feel like a victim just because I couldn't speak English. In fact, even though the school I attended had a lot of Asians who couldn't speak English, it performed very well for a public school. Sure, not knowing the language is a barrier, but having a culture that heavily emphasizes education can overcome that.

    Generally, immigrants who don't speak English will fall behind in English classes. However, I think that once they learn English, it's up to immigrants to ensure their educational success in order to maintain pride in their own culture. It's important for these ESL classes to have a proper student-teacher ratio, which I hope are mostly taught by plenty of Hispanic teachers, some who are illegal immigrants themselves.

    GPA for high-school immigrants will be negatively impacted, but I'm sure they can explain that on their college applications. Blacks and Hispanics are oppressed groups anyways who receive points just for their race.

    Also, undocumented immigrants have the lowest crime rate in Texas, even though they've a higher poverty rate nationwide:
    "In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per 100,000 illegal immigrants, 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422 per 100,000 native‐​born Americans." catOWO.org
    "Undocumented immigrants are nearly twice as likely as the overall U.S. population to be food insecure (24 percent compared to 14 percent)." BREAD!!!.org
    Maybe the recent waves of immigrants will cause instability that leads to higher crime rates, but that will be more of an overpopulation issue, not an issue with immigrants themselves.

  8. #8

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    Also, undocumented immigrants have the lowest crime rate in Texas, even though they've a higher poverty rate nationwide:
    "In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per 100,000 illegal immigrants, 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422 per 100,000 native‐​born Americans." catOWO.org
    "Undocumented immigrants are nearly twice as likely as the overall U.S. population to be food insecure (24 percent compared to 14 percent)." BREAD!!!.org
    Maybe the recent waves of immigrants will cause instability that leads to higher crime rates, but that will be more of an overpopulation issue, not an issue with immigrants themselves.
    This is a very valid point. I did not mean to insinuate Hispanic Immigrates are going to rob people or something. I honestly didn't think it through and was just regurgitating some studies a I read years back. I always try to relate back to my personal experience and the only thing of the sort I have personally been in contact with is this really weird clepto issue of people stealing lawn ornaments. Its not even stuff of value, My buddys security camera caught one stealing a porcelain pig off his neighbors lawn and last week my neighbor across the street caught one on their doorbell camera taking a metal rooster. Past that most of the 'thieft' I know of among migrants is related to business. Like a guy will skip town after doing a sheetrock job and not pay out his employees although that sort of thing is handled in-house..

    This is the first one google spit out related to economic inequality and crime but there have been many: https://journalofeconomicstructures....08-020-00220-6
    It might be of note the studies I read were international and not focused on America although they all seem to draw the parallel that crime increases in line with economic inequality existing. I do not remember any of them even stating that the crime is perpetuated by the poor.

  9. #9

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    This is a very valid point. I did not mean to insinuate Hispanic Immigrates are going to rob people or something. I honestly didn't think it through and was just regurgitating some studies a I read years back. I always try to relate back to my personal experience and the only thing of the sort I have personally been in contact with is this really weird clepto issue of people stealing lawn ornaments. Its not even stuff of value, My buddys security camera caught one stealing a porcelain pig off his neighbors lawn and last week my neighbor across the street caught one on their doorbell camera taking a metal rooster. Past that most of the 'thieft' I know of among migrants is related to business. Like a guy will skip town after doing a sheetrock job and not pay out his employees although that sort of thing is handled in-house..

    This is the first one google spit out related to economic inequality and crime but there have been many: https://journalofeconomicstructures....08-020-00220-6
    It might be of note the studies I read were international and not focused on America although they all seem to draw the parallel that crime increases in line with economic inequality existing. I do not remember any of them even stating that the crime is perpetuated by the poor.
    Fair point uwu. Also the immigrants taking lawn ornaments is hilarious, I like don't even know what to think of it. It's clearly wrong, but like WHAT THE FCK R U GONNA DO WITH A LAWN OWORANEMENT, LOL!!!! UWOWU HEWWO!!!

  10. #10

  11. #11

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    and like, i'd be mad if anyone took my shit... Just Saiayan. UWU!!!!
    Oh for sure. It was hilarious listening to my neighbor rant. She was like... "If your gona fucking rob me at least do it right!"

    The one my buddy caught on Camera he actually found the guy like a week later. He recognized his truck and confronted him on the issue. The guy denied it until he showed him the video, then he said he had to go get the pig from his cousins house because he gave it away. To this day I wonder how awkward that conversation was or what the situation was. Like.. Did he give it as a birthday present and then had to come back like "So.. I actually stole that shit and need it back now" or maybe he just took it back without saying anything because of the shame? The guy was old too. He was like in his late 40s. What kinda grown ass man runs around town snatching lawn gnomes and shit..

  12. #12

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Oh for sure. It was hilarious listening to my neighbor rant. She was like... "If your gona fucking rob me at least do it right!"

    The one my buddy caught on Camera he actually found the guy like a week later. He recognized his truck and confronted him on the issue. The guy denied it until he showed him the video, then he said he had to go get the pig from his cousins house because he gave it away. To this day I wonder how awkward that conversation was or what the situation was. Like.. Did he give it as a birthday present and then had to come back like "So.. I actually stole that shit and need it back now" or maybe he just took it back without saying anything because of the shame? The guy was old too. He was like in his late 40s. What kinda grown ass man runs around town snatching lawn gnomes and shit..
    LOL, UWU!!!!
    Last edited by theoneceko; April 3rd, 2021 at 04:12 PM.

  13. #13

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Oh for sure. It was hilarious listening to my neighbor rant. She was like... "If your gona fucking rob me at least do it right!"

    The one my buddy caught on Camera he actually found the guy like a week later. He recognized his truck and confronted him on the issue. The guy denied it until he showed him the video, then he said he had to go get the pig from his cousins house because he gave it away. To this day I wonder how awkward that conversation was or what the situation was. Like.. Did he give it as a birthday present and then had to come back like "So.. I actually stole that shit and need it back now" or maybe he just took it back without saying anything because of the shame? The guy was old too. He was like in his late 40s. What kinda grown ass man runs around town snatching lawn gnomes and shit..
    the porch pirate menace is getting worse and worse every year. Police can't do shit. Not even an immigrants thing, just people realizing they can make an easy living simply grabbing packages off of the porch.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  14. #14

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    - Give them appropriate services to help them learn the language if they don't already know it, which means additional courses if they don't pass a test. It's not discrimination: the same would happen to natives who don't pass tests.

    - Make sure there is no actual discrimination in the system and fine severely when compelling evidence is found to put a stop to it.

    - Give them the necessary school supplies for free if they cannot afford them. Without them, they can't learn well, and they shouldn't have to sacrifice stuff like food either.

    If all of this is too complicated, too costly, or if the immigrants fail to get a job once they come out of the system because there are no more jobs, then it means the state cannot afford it and should simply tighten immigration restrictions by lowering the maximum amount of refugees and of economic immigrants who lack qualification. That is the only way to avoid problems for both immigrants and the state. Else, the state ends up with a ton of trouble (unemployment, high costs due to lack of ability to help immigrants, etc.), and so do the immigrants (poverty, inequalities due to lack of education, higher risk of criminality due to socio-economic conditions, etc.).
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  15. #15

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    the porch pirate menace is getting worse and worse every year. Police can't do shit. Not even an immigrants thing, just people realizing they can make an easy living simply grabbing packages off of the porch.
    Oh for sure. I have never personally stolen a package but I have had to check my morals more than once when I lived in an apartment a some box was right in front of me walking to my door.

    Im pretty sure if I was bad off financially I would not have kept walking. I don't know if that makes me a worse person or not but I certainly don't think of myself as any better than someone who snags a package. Isn't there some saying about morals being a luxury?

  16. #16

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    If all of this is too complicated, too costly, or if the immigrants fail to get a job once they come out of the system because there are no more jobs, then it means the state cannot afford it and should simply tighten immigration restrictions by lowering the maximum amount of refugees and of economic immigrants who lack qualification. That is the only way to avoid problems for both immigrants and the state. Else, the state ends up with a ton of trouble (unemployment, high costs due to lack of ability to help immigrants, etc.), and so do the immigrants (poverty, inequalities due to lack of education, higher risk of criminality due to socio-economic conditions, etc.).
    Spoiler : Spoiler because tangental to the topic :

    Something occurred to me the other day. I always saw immigration as a moral good at the expense of the accepting society. But that it also removed motivation for worse off society's to progress. The 'good' people who want a better life no longer need to create that life where they live. They simply leave that negative environment because a better one exists. On the same note the 'better off' locations control immigration to maintain their situation as 'better off.' I kinda figured it was natural.
    But then a few days ago I realized this imbalance is preserved by controlled immigration. That if it did not exist society's could potentially equalize and along with it motivation for progress could be restored in the worse locations. This is a very socialist view to take with absolute loosers and winners in the short term but I kinda wonder how differently we could function as a species if those barriers we consider so normal did not exist. If they are something that causes the issues or if they are simply a result of human nature. Almost in line with Buddhism its almost like the drive to 'have' makes others 'have nots' or something.

    Kinda half cooked thought there but I figured it was worth rambling about.

    I also wonder where you can draw the line. Its easy when your talking about people as numbers to set a point where help will stop being given but it feels almost impossible to do so for the individual for me. I kinda feel like thats the entire conversation on immigration in general. I don't think as a society we could ever have an agreed point of limitation. That part does feel like just a factor of human nature now that I think about it.

  17. #17

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    - Give them appropriate services to help them learn the language if they don't already know it, which means additional courses if they don't pass a test. It's not discrimination: the same would happen to natives who don't pass tests.

    - Make sure there is no actual discrimination in the system and fine severely when compelling evidence is found to put a stop to it.

    - Give them the necessary school supplies for free if they cannot afford them. Without them, they can't learn well, and they shouldn't have to sacrifice stuff like food either.

    If all of this is too complicated, too costly, or if the immigrants fail to get a job once they come out of the system because there are no more jobs, then it means the state cannot afford it and should simply tighten immigration restrictions by lowering the maximum amount of refugees and of economic immigrants who lack qualification. That is the only way to avoid problems for both immigrants and the state. Else, the state ends up with a ton of trouble (unemployment, high costs due to lack of ability to help immigrants, etc.), and so do the immigrants (poverty, inequalities due to lack of education, higher risk of criminality due to socio-economic conditions, etc.).
    MM for pwessident!!! uWu

    u-uhh i whOwOLLY AGEE! kinda uWu

  18. #18

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Oh for sure. I have never personally stolen a package but I have had to check my morals more than once when I lived in an apartment a some box was right in front of me walking to my door.

    Im pretty sure if I was bad off financially I would not have kept walking. I don't know if that makes me a worse person or not but I certainly don't think of myself as any better than someone who snags a package. Isn't there some saying about morals being a luxury?
    IDK FIF THERE'S A SAYING, B-BUT THAT IS SO FUwUCKING TRUE!!! for me uFu

  19. #19

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Spoiler : Spoiler because tangental to the topic :

    Something occurred to me the other day. I always saw immigration as a moral good at the expense of the accepting society. But that it also removed motivation for worse off society's to progress. The 'good' people who want a better life no longer need to create that life where they live. They simply leave that negative environment because a better one exists. On the same note the 'better off' locations control immigration to maintain their situation as 'better off.' I kinda figured it was natural.
    But then a few days ago I realized this imbalance is preserved by controlled immigration. That if it did not exist society's could potentially equalize and along with it motivation for progress could be restored in the worse locations. This is a very socialist view to take with absolute loosers and winners in the short term but I kinda wonder how differently we could function as a species if those barriers we consider so normal did not exist. If they are something that causes the issues or if they are simply a result of human nature. Almost in line with Buddhism its almost like the drive to 'have' makes others 'have nots' or something.

    Kinda half cooked thought there but I figured it was worth rambling about.

    I also wonder where you can draw the line. Its easy when your talking about people as numbers to set a point where help will stop being given but it feels almost impossible to do so for the individual for me. I kinda feel like thats the entire conversation on immigration in general. I don't think as a society we could ever have an agreed point of limitation. That part does feel like just a factor of human nature now that I think about it.
    So, I eread a book, about how geography affects economic inzequality between nations. And like, I think Mexico was ranked pretty low, so like since it cudn't farm, it couldn't grow like the U.S. And that since russia's bad geoWography influences its invasion of neighbors (not enough resources in their own couuntry, so they've to look for them in other countries).

    so like, that's why mexico is poor?? uWu idk. im sure it plays a factor. i also lerned that usa basically collonized everywhere, using its military power to influence& stuff. like helping grow drug crIses in labbin america... me, i findit hard to believe, that a govt. could be so cruWuel, but at the same time, as a citiezen, is it rly my rightto bash u.s. wiile enjoying its ecOnamic benifits??? to me it almost seems hipocritical and disingenuine ;W;

    immigration between u.s.&megico is both wyays tho, i THINK it's shifted more toward mexicot-to-u.s. recently. i no reemember. so don't quWuote me on that.

    i do agree that it's much easier to talk about welcoming immigrants than it is to actually help them. frum personal exxperience, i used to be quite-leftist, adnd thought we shud simplee help the disadvantagged as muchas possible to creeate an equal society, but being working-class, inow have to ACTUALLY help coworkers who r innadequate or jus' plain lazy. for me,that was a dose of ree-ality. grwowing up in a liberal ennvironment, i've always wannted to learn more about the right, i'd say rn i am a mOdEraTe, prowbably lean left, but uFoOffU hEffU uWu uWu?!?

    i also agree that this is a complictated issue for an individual to face irl. u've to consider ur self-interests, perhaps uwant to preserve ur town culture oWo uWU, but maybe ther's a side of u that wants to be open-miinded, see that a whOwOrld w/out barriers culd be for the better ;W;?!? to me, it looks like ur more interested in intellectual pursuits than anything, and that this keeps u from getting too emotionally invested when discussing politics. that is vewwy admiwwable. uWu!!!

    for me pers0nally, immigaration is purely a logic vs. emottion, h00man nature wnanting to help others issue. idk where i stand ;W;!!!
    Last edited by theoneceko; April 4th, 2021 at 08:23 AM.

  20. #20

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    So, I eread a book, about how geography affects economic inzequality between nations. And like, I think Mexico was ranked pretty low, so like since it cudn't farm, it couldn't grow like the U.S. And that since russia's bad geoWography influences its invasion of neighbors (not enough resources in their own couuntry, so they've to look for them in other countries).

    so like, that's why mexico is poor?? uWu idk. im sure it plays a factor. i also lerned that usa basically collonized everywhere, using its military power to influence& stuff. like helping grow drug crIses in labbin america... me, i findit hard to believe, that a govt. could be so cruWuel, but at the same time, as a citiezen, is it rly my rightto bash u.s. wiile enjoying its ecOnamic benifits??? to me it almost seems hipocritical and disingenuine ;W;
    Im not sure why Mexico is so poor. Maybe its really not just there is a much more extreme gab between the poor and the rich? Recent technology such as the mass hydroponic farming thats kicked off down there has certainly established both a new revenue stream as well as solved any 'food shortage' issue that would hinder their growth so in the long term if that was the problem it might normalize?

    Im sure the corruption does not help. Had a beer a few months back who was a swat training consultant for the city I live in. He was a refugee who came over after working as an officer in Mexico. Talking to him was super interesting and he basically drew out how they had implemented an effective way to sort corruption out of the police force and pushed out a number of corrupt officials, but they failed to implement an effective way to sort new corrupt officials so over time things returned to worse than they were before. He basically pointed out how as an officer even if you are not corrupt, if the guy above you is you can be serving corrupt interests without yourself being corrupt.

    There is also the factor that the cartels function as independent governments within Mexico. They have their own laws, military, judges, and even collect taxes. For a long time I took issue with the fact such groups are allowed to directly assasinate American citizens and elected officials without being declared a 'terror organization' simply because its argued they 'have no political interest.' But anyways- I am sure the existence of these revenue streams are quite parasitic on the country. Instead of that money being used to protect the public or develop its infrastructure its goes to pay for.. Whatever it is cartels buy? I duno.. Submarines and guns or something?

    To my original point though. I think the absolute worst thing we can do is take in a generation of children and fail to provide them with opportunity to excel in life. Im just watching this stuff unfold in my state and thinking to myself how this is going to create long term inequality. Although maybe being poor and somewhat oppressed in America is still a thousand times better than living in Latin America? I am kinda rambling at this point.

  21. #21

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Im not sure why Mexico is so poor. Maybe its really not just there is a much more extreme gab between the poor and the rich? Recent technology such as the mass hydroponic farming thats kicked off down there has certainly established both a new revenue stream as well as solved any 'food shortage' issue that would hinder their growth so in the long term if that was the problem it might normalize?

    Im sure the corruption does not help. Had a beer a few months back who was a swat training consultant for the city I live in. He was a refugee who came over after working as an officer in Mexico. Talking to him was super interesting and he basically drew out how they had implemented an effective way to sort corruption out of the police force and pushed out a number of corrupt officials, but they failed to implement an effective way to sort new corrupt officials so over time things returned to worse than they were before. He basically pointed out how as an officer even if you are not corrupt, if the guy above you is you can be serving corrupt interests without yourself being corrupt.

    There is also the factor that the cartels function as independent governments within Mexico. They have their own laws, military, judges, and even collect taxes. For a long time I took issue with the fact such groups are allowed to directly assasinate American citizens and elected officials without being declared a 'terror organization' simply because its argued they 'have no political interest.' But anyways- I am sure the existence of these revenue streams are quite parasitic on the country. Instead of that money being used to protect the public or develop its infrastructure its goes to pay for.. Whatever it is cartels buy? I duno.. Submarines and guns or something?

    To my original point though. I think the absolute worst thing we can do is take in a generation of children and fail to provide them with opportunity to excel in life. Im just watching this stuff unfold in my state and thinking to myself how this is going to create long term inequality. Although maybe being poor and somewhat oppressed in America is still a thousand times better than living in Latin America? I am kinda rambling at this point.
    Are the kids struggling right now, or is that something u predict will happen?
    Last edited by theoneceko; April 4th, 2021 at 06:13 PM.

  22. #22

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    Are the kids struggling right now, or is that something u predict will happen?
    Its an issue right now as I described above. When my mother retired she wanted some work to keep her busy and has a level of professional expertise in working with special needs children as well as being fluent in Spanish. 8th grade girl I mentioned came a month ago from Guatemala and as things are now she will just be pushed through the grades and given a sympathy diploma with very little education. I think accepting them into our society and giving empty promises about opportunity is cruel. She may wake up at the age of 30 and realize she will never go anywhere in society and was never actually given the chance she deserved. Thinking about that makes me angry but I probably take this (or maybe everything) too seriously. A large portion of my focus in my life has been in fostering potential so feeling its going to be squandered hits home on me.

  23. #23

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Spoiler : Spoiler because tangental to the topic :

    Something occurred to me the other day. I always saw immigration as a moral good at the expense of the accepting society. But that it also removed motivation for worse off society's to progress. The 'good' people who want a better life no longer need to create that life where they live. They simply leave that negative environment because a better one exists. On the same note the 'better off' locations control immigration to maintain their situation as 'better off.' I kinda figured it was natural.
    But then a few days ago I realized this imbalance is preserved by controlled immigration. That if it did not exist society's could potentially equalize and along with it motivation for progress could be restored in the worse locations. This is a very socialist view to take with absolute loosers and winners in the short term but I kinda wonder how differently we could function as a species if those barriers we consider so normal did not exist. If they are something that causes the issues or if they are simply a result of human nature. Almost in line with Buddhism its almost like the drive to 'have' makes others 'have nots' or something.

    Kinda half cooked thought there but I figured it was worth rambling about.

    I also wonder where you can draw the line. Its easy when your talking about people as numbers to set a point where help will stop being given but it feels almost impossible to do so for the individual for me. I kinda feel like thats the entire conversation on immigration in general. I don't think as a society we could ever have an agreed point of limitation. That part does feel like just a factor of human nature now that I think about it.
    Indeed, it's very difficult to tell someone who needs help "sorry, we're full" on an individual level. But not doing it causes even greater immoral results. That's why you have to think in terms of numbers when you're thinking about management for the State, without forgetting each number hides a person who has human needs to avoid falling into the trap of treating immigrants (or anyone else) like they're machines.

    ~~

    About "porch pirates", here's more or less where I stand: https://medium.com/@swamy/https-medi...s-fc00aefc362a
    Rule 5: "Concern with ethics increases with the number of means available and vice versa."
    If one lacks the luxury of a choice and is possessed of only one mean, then the ethical question will never arise; automatically the lone mean becomes endowed with moral spirit. After all, what else could be done?

    It's nothing new: Les Misťrables already used this thematic long ago. So no, I don't think anyone is a lesser human being for being a porch pirate, as long as they actually need to be.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  24. #24

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Indeed, it's very difficult to tell someone who needs help "sorry, we're full" on an individual level. But not doing it causes even greater immoral results. That's why you have to think in terms of numbers when you're thinking about management for the State, without forgetting each number hides a person who has human needs to avoid falling into the trap of treating immigrants (or anyone else) like they're machines.

    ~~

    About "porch pirates", here's more or less where I stand: https://medium.com/@swamy/https-medi...s-fc00aefc362a
    Rule 5: "Concern with ethics increases with the number of means available and vice versa."
    If one lacks the luxury of a choice and is possessed of only one mean, then the ethical question will never arise; automatically the lone mean becomes endowed with moral spirit. After all, what else could be done?

    It's nothing new: Les Misťrables already used this thematic long ago. So no, I don't think anyone is a lesser human being for being a porch pirate, as long as they actually need to be.
    I have always felt that the functions of the state should focus on a utilitarian mindset. Even though it can mean evil for the individual Jeremy Bentham really nailed that shit in many ways (although I kinda question an individual functioning that way as an absolute.)

    And that was beautifully put. I have never herd it said that way or considered basically making the thought process a logic tree. Im not sure why I immediately want to create a logic tree for the ethical thought processes of a trolley problem.

  25. #25

  26. #26

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Same as for non-immigrants.
    In the Netherlands, for mathematics there's several different levels, and ppl can choose which level of math they take. I don't know exactly what they're called but I'm thinking you just put the kids in the class they can handle?
    Last edited by Oberon; April 16th, 2021 at 05:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Yeah I donít read or care to that much. I just vote correctly and thatís that.

  27. #27

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Education has always been a focus of mine simply because its the formal process our society uses to prepare individuals to be successful and productive for the rest of their lives. I live in Texas and one massive issue coming up is the huge influx of child immigration. This creates a situation in schools where children who have never been taught what a negative number or a fraction is are dropped into an 8 grade math class taught in a language they do not understand. (My mother actually works with many of these children and this is a specific situation I just discussed with her over lunch that she was working with last week.)

    Something I am curious about is what you guys would consider the 'appropriate' or 'ethical' action to be in this situation. Do you split the children creating a difference in the level of education received which some would consider discrimination? Do you teach the entire group at the level of the lowest individuals knowledge to get them 'caught up' sacrificing the education of those who are well educated? Do you just pass the uneducated through handing them a diploma in the end?

    I personally disagree with opening the borders but if we are going to accept them into our society I believe its a greater evil to destroy their ability to take advantage of the opportunity's our society provides in the long term. If you consider how many studies have reflected that economic disparity is strongly associated with violence and crime its not just an issue for those the system is failing when you are injecting a mass of individuals and setting them up for a life where they will likely struggle to establish income in a very wealthy society. I have been looking a lot lately at the driving factors for whats viewed as 'systemic racism' lately and pretty much feel that this dilemma has the potential to create a whole new generation of inequality for a massive amount of people, which is particularly concerning when I think that is being done to children.

    There is also the associated issue of COVID education. Some children's parents will have taught their kids for a year while others undoubtedly did not. 1 grade level and no language barrier is not as substantial of an issue but the exact same question can be asked of what is appropriate to do with those children who basically took a year off from school.
    The way you're describing this makes it seem like the immigrants are more some kind of refugees that are just being forced into the country. If they're actually immigrants, it's kind of their problem if their kid can't speak English and don't make an effort to learn. They have the same responsibilities as everyone else. Also, if math levels are a problem, they should just enroll into a class that requires less advanced math or take math lessons on the side. It's not like anyone forced them to come into the country... unless you actually do mean refugees and not immigrants.

  28. #28

    Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?

    I don't really have a problem with 'opening the borders' as long as you screen the kind of people you're letting immigrate. Say something like being invited to work there by a company, a relative, or receiving a scholarship. And maybe if none of those apply, a minimum wage required for entry sounds about nice
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Yeah I donít read or care to that much. I just vote correctly and thatís that.

 

 

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