ZZorange: 1-S2-1-2701690

[kildja]

Account Name: ZZorange
Account ID: 1-S2-1-2701690
In-Game Name: Honest Man Ace Attorney

Crimes Committed: Game-throwing

Your Account Name: kildja
Summary: Town voted this player up onto the stand. This player was confirmed not Triad, but not confirmed to be town. He refused to give role and lw on the stand because "there's someone else who needs lynched more" and "if you can't figure out [I'm inno] you shouldn't be playing Mafia." Didn't change the outcome of the game, but made the game last a day longer and was unnecessary.

I may be biased because of this player's long and obnoxious history of throwing and trying to meta-game with his name choices.

ZZorange Gamethrow.SC2Replay

[MrMostache]

I'm in this game, unfortunately.
I do confirm that this player has been replicating this behavior over a long time. This is a game after he received his watchlist.

Note that the mayor was revealed at that point. He still refused to even pm him a role. Again, not the first time. Happened before.

[Auwt]

ID Verification :

ZZorange 1-S2-1-2701690 Correct

Summary :

Honest Man Ace Attorney - Doctor - #10

D1 : Usual stuff about default name
N1 : Does not heal anyone "waiting to see who's worth of healin"
D2 : He is silenced. A Sheriff is claiming that ZZorange is triad. He is put up but innoed thanks to a Spy proving he got silenced.
N2 : Decided to heal the one (#4) who found the silencer.
N3 : Keeps healing. Arsonist ignites. Two Neutral Random die.
D4 : Arsonist is lynched
D5 : A Citizen has died on N4, thus proving the existence of an Auditor. #11 (Mayor) reveals.
The last triad is lynched. There are 5 players alive at that time.

D6 : People don't know ZZorange's role and everyone is asking.
Since he hasn't claimed, the players tend to think he is the Auditor
He is semi asking the Mayor to vote. And the Mayor voted ZZ up, with the help of EVERY other players.
He is indeed confirmed not Triad thanks to a Spy lw, but with a WD being down people tend to think he either is Cultist or Auditor.

Instead of providing any useful information and/or PMing at least the Mayor of his role, here is his defense :
Also notice that the Mayor (#11), here is a default name.

Spoiler : TRIAL LOG :

I 18:27 ZZorange ALL Oh nice 11 is still mayor didn't see that one coming. Figuered he might be purple.
I 18:28 ZZorange ALL Anyways I'm confirmed town
I 18:31 ZZorange ALL Due to the information available to us
I 18:31 ZZorange ALL So its up to you 11. Throw or don't.
I 18:35 ZZorange ALL Prove my assumption that defaults have no brain correct.
I 18:36 ZZorange ALL Or don't
I 18:38 ZZorange ALL entirely in your hands.
I 18:40 ZZorange ALL I rest my case.
I 18:46 ZZorange ALL indeed
I 18:47 ZZorange ALL If you no role no lw you're a bad player
I 18:48 ZZorange ALL Who needs to use their brain more.
I 18:54 ZZorange ALL We have someone far more deserving of a lynch already ready to go.
I 18:57 ZZorange ALL If you don't know that.
I 18:59 ZZorange ALL Spoiler alert
I 19:01 ZZorange ALL You shouldn't be playin mafia

With this speech, he obviously managed to get himself lynched.
Town still managed to pull a win the next day.

Personal note, I don't want to be rude, but if he doesn't want to cooperate with others, he should re-evaluate himself while saying such things.
What would it have cost to cooperate and say a role/lw here ?
ZZorange was only confirmed not to be Triad.
But with a WD and Auditor, the situation is different from being auto-confirmed to be town.
If everyone acted like ZZ did, the game would be... uh?
I wondered if things would have gone different if Mayor hadn't been a default.

No intent to prove your innocence, not being cooperative and several replication of this behaviour is enough for me to consider it as Intentional Gamethrowing.

Player Offenses :

Intentional Gamethrowing

Previous Offenses :

BLx2 appealed to a WLx3 (late January 2020)
Intentional Gamethrowing
Griefing?

Gamethrowing (2011, KickVote),
Skyping (2013, 2xKickVote),
Skyping/Cheating (2013, 4xKickVote),
Cheating/Skyping/Gamethrow/Griefing (2013, BLx2),
Skyping (2013, Permabanned),
Cheating/Skyping(2013, Already Permabanned)

Recommended Action :

BLx2

Additional Notes :

ZZorange has clearly shown his no-intent to be cooperative at any time.
I used a (?) since ZZorange is apparently denying the fact he has griefed.
I don't know why but I feel he is going to appeal and say it's Mayor's fault for not innoing him.
The BLx2 is a lower threshold imo.

[Arrow]

1-S2-1-2701690: 4x Banlist

[ZZorange]

Awut if you're going to discuss a replay as evidence. You should include the full context of the match my guy.

But since it seems Auwts hellbent on a revenge boner, I guess it's up to me to provide the context that the reporter should be providing.

So in this game. On Day 2 the player in the 9th position who was an Auditor played by Goofy Renegade. Announced. N1 - 10 Triad! And spammed it hard.

Of course it's not a very common town tactic to spam "X is Triad" who is not so, as that tends to lead to gamethrowing as you reporters should be well aware of.

Anyway the game goes on, as you know I am confirmed to not be Triad, due to the spy visit and Triad being lynched in a counter. The spy also confirms that I was not visited twice eliminating the possibility of a framer.
It's also very low likelyhood that framer and silencer would visit the same targets.

Anyway down to the day at hand.

On the day in question. A witch doctor, Amnesiac and an arsonist as well as all Triad are dead. 11 Is obviously the confirmed Mayor and 4 is the confirmed spy.

The 9 player as we remember, the auditor. Has yet to claim anything to the mayor and is still alive. Obviously I recognize the fact that, this man is indeed the last neutral or a game thrower himself. I ask if 11 is going to vote 9 as he is confirmed to be either of the things mentioned.

Then of course I get voted and the chat log is as follows, and is pretty aggressive considering 9 has already been outed as either a neutral role or a gamethrower and is the most deserving candidate of a trial.

Of course at this point the game is a no town loss scenario. As its an auditor without killing capability. The only way the town can lose the game is to band together and unite to lynch the mayor making it possible to lose. As even if the mayor fail lynched 2 times in a row he'd still be left in a scenario with himself alive and a confirmed spy also alive.

In a no lose scenario it's not necessary to give a role, because you've already won and if people are going to waste your time, by not paying attention, it's perfectly reasonable for you to allow them to waste their own time.

Of course as you're aware the game was won by town, because as previously mentioned it would have been impossible for them to lose.

I find it a little witch-hunty to be banned for gamethrowing on a game that wasn't even thrown. Isn't it in the name? Game... throwing? Surely even people with a hate boner for me, can see the obvious logical disconnect.

To answer Auwts point. The need to prove innocence was not required as it was already publicly available knowledge. Hence why I voted 9 and was confused when the mayor turned around and voted poorly.

It's no secret I have a hatred for default names and no game illustrates that point as well as this one.
Where a default named player with two unknowns and plenty of information to make the correct choice, chooses the wrong one.

Honestly if you wanted to go for a charge of "Griefing" that would have a better basis for this replay than game-throwing where such was literally impossible.

I understand people are looking for any possible thing so they can justify banning me, Auwts behavior is evident of that. But if you're going to go for a ban on a guy, at least choose some good evidence. If I gamethrow as much as people claim I do, it should not be hard to find evidence more substantial than this. Hate me or not, you know that's a valid point.

So please. If you're going to come, you come correct. Thank you.

[Auwt]

Awut if you're going to discuss a replay as evidence. You should include the full context of the match my guy.

Pretty sure what you are about to say was explained by both kildja and/or me.

But since it seems Auwts hellbent on a revenge boner, I guess it's up to me to provide the context that the reporter should be providing

I do not earn anything from a ban more than an ignored report.
I've no revenge to take.
I'm just processing the report.

So in this game. On Day 2 the player in the 9th position who was an Auditor played by Goofy Renegade. Announced. N1 - 10 Triad! And spammed it hard. Of course it's not a very common town tactic to spam "X is Triad" who is not so, as that tends to lead to gamethrowing as you reporters should be well aware of.

I won't lie to you. You gathered so many person against you, with your horrible behaviour, that I wouldn't be recommending a punishment against someone who do so as town toward you because they wouldn't deserve one.

Anyway the game goes on, as you know I am confirmed to not be Triad, due to the spy visit and Triad being lynched in a counter. The spy also confirms that I was not visited twice eliminating the possibility of a framer.
It's also very low likelyhood that framer and silencer would visit the same targets.

I came to the same conclusion in the summary of the game, you were confirmed not to be Triad, I'm fine with it.

Anyway down to the day at hand.

On the day in question. A witch doctor, Amnesiac and an arsonist as well as all Triad are dead. 11 Is obviously the confirmed Mayor and 4 is the confirmed spy.

Agreed, also explained in the summary.

The 9 player as we remember, the auditor. Has yet to claim anything to the mayor and is still alive.

You haven't claimed either.

Obviously I recognize the fact that, this man is indeed the last neutral or a game thrower himself. I ask if 11 is going to vote 9 as he is confirmed to be either of the things mentioned.

Can understand that from your POV you had doubt on 9, fair.

Then of course I get voted and the chat log is as follows, and is pretty aggressive considering 9 has already been outed as either a neutral role or a gamethrower and is the most deserving candidate of a trial.

9 hasn't claimed, and you haven't claimed either. You are in the same exact position. Except you are confirmed not to be Triad, but that's useless since they are all dead.

In a no lose scenario it's not necessary to give a role, because you've already won and if people are going to waste your time, by not paying attention, it's perfectly reasonable for you to allow them to waste their own time.

Sigh.

Honestly, with this way of thinking I don't even want to read the rest of your post, but I will do it anyway.

It could've taken 1 word (Doctor) and a ctrl+c ctrl+v. (With maybe the addition of the point you previously said).
And instead of it you are just opposing the Town, blaming the others where you could've just recalled the reason that prove your innocence. But no, you ended up not willing to cooperate.

I find it a little witch-hunty to be banned for gamethrowing on a game that wasn't even thrown. Isn't it in the name? Game... throwing? Surely even people with a hate boner for me, can see the obvious logical disconnect.

You were under your WLx3 at that time. That explains the instant jump to a BL if that can explain.
I would've considered your action as Reactionary Gamethrowing for a first-time offender,
But, you are constantly doing such things when in trial, replicating it over and over, then blaming the others for lynching you, it's definitely not the first time you are doing so (if you don't remember it, you can check the other replays in the previous report).

Trying to Gamethrow is considered as Gamethrowing.

To answer Auwts point. The need to prove innocence was not required as it was already publicly available knowledge.

I must not have this "available knowledge" that proved your role to be Doctor, I'm sorry.
If you were really willing to win this game, you would've claimed.
When ALL the others players are voting you up, you should consider that maybe they are not fully aware of everything.

Honestly if you wanted to go for a charge of "Griefing" that would have a better basis for this replay than game-throwing where such was literally impossible.

So you are again going to discuss the line between griefing and gamethrowing?
I believe we have already talked enough about the difference between Gamethrowing and Griefing, there is no need anymore?

I understand people are looking for any possible thing so they can justify banning me, Auwts behavior is evident of that. But if you're going to go for a ban on a guy, at least choose some good evidence. If I gamethrow as much as people claim I do, it should not be hard to find evidence more substantial than this. Hate me or not, you know that's a valid point.

Sigh.

Is claiming on the stand while accused by everyone else ? No.
Is replicating such behaviour in several games ? Yes.
Could've proven his innocence ? Yes.
What reason did he adduce ?

if people are going to waste your time, by not paying attention, it's perfectly reasonable for you to allow them to waste their own time.

Don't blame me ZZorange, but here we are.

[ZZorange]

Alright I thought the logic was easy enough to follow. I was wrong. I will break it down for you 100% of the way for you Auwt.

So you have two unclaimed players left in a game. One of them claimed the other was Triad Day 2, and it has since been confirmed there is no framer in the game.

This persons claim is obviously suspect. If you as the Mayor choose to lynch the other player despite having this information publicly available to you in the form of the chat log or simply paying attention in the game, then you've made a mistake.
Now this is just me personally, but I don't believe its fitting to punish other players, when another one makes a very blatant mistake. As the Mayor the onus is on you to pay attention to the game, you have the most information and the most power in the form of votes. The game is quite literally on your shoulders. So if you have a choice to make and ignore information you have previously been given, then you as the Mayor have made a mistake. It's easy to make mistakes as Mayor, new players can get information overloaded. Not the case in this game, but does happen in others. However the fact that Mayor is a hard role that can miss information does not excuse the player for making the mistake. It's still a mistake.

The 9 player spammed N1 - 10 Triad! A total of 13+ times. Unfortunately to miss this, one would have to be afk for the entire duration of Day 2. Now personally, if the Mayor was Indeed AFK Day 2, then the onus for not paying attention and not playing the game is on them. Of course we have the replay and can see that the Mayor was infact paying attention and opened the chat log. Thus the Mayor was well aware of 9s claim.

So when we get to essentially the final day it boils down to me being punished for the Mayor forgetting a valuable piece of information he was present for. Of course again you use the phrase "Trying to Throw the Game" but trying to throw the game in this case would only be possible by attempting to lynch the Mayor. That's the only way this game could have been thrown, so attempting to throw the game would have to qualify as attempting to do that, which I did not do. I attempted to lynch the last neutral.

At the end of the day the game boiled down to a default named Mayor forgetting a piece of information he was present for and making a bad call, which then was promptly corrected the next day and the only result of his poor choice was wasting a day, a fitting punishment for negligence on his part.

If I am guilty of anything it is allowing other players to make mistakes, because that's the only way they're going to learn. You don't learn anything if good town hand hold your way through every game, you learn by fucking up and learning yourself not to make a mistake that silly again. Did the Mayor that game learn anything? Well he's a default so its doubtful, but the onus is on the named names to at least try to teach.

Auwt if you were truly unbiased in your job as a report analyzer or whatever you want to call it, you would recognize that the charge your attempting to lay does not hold water, in any realistic definition. Of course we don't live without bias and I recognize your bias, which wouldn't be a problem if it didn't cause me to get banned on grounds that aren't valid. Ironically the only thing getting banned falsely for gamethrowing could potentially do is cause more legitimate gamethrowing. Because if you're going to be punished for a crime you didn't commit and it's going to stick, you might as well actually commit the crime if you're gonna be doing the time.

[Unknown1234]

Funny how this entire thing wouldn’t have happened if you had claimed a role. Bet you feel pretty dumb now.

[ZZorange]

Unlikely Unknown. As was already previously established 9 had fail claimed sheriff as Early as Day 2. The fact that the Mayor managed to overlook this simple fact means that it is not 100% probable that even a role reveal would have helped the clueless mayor. He had already chose the worst of the 2 options given the information he had and no one can say for certain whether sharing the role would have curbed his incompetence.

Afterall if he's bad enough to choose the wrong person to Trial with plenty of evidence to help him decide, he's likely bad enough to guilty even a claim that makes sense. Such is the danger with default names.

Good bait though.

[DJarJar]

Imagine making these two statements one after another:

I 18:27 ZZorange ALL Oh nice 11 is still mayor didn't see that one coming. Figuered he might be purple.
I 18:28 ZZorange ALL Anyways I'm confirmed town

If you don’t see the direct conflict between these two statements I don’t think anybody can help you


Gamethrowing because you think everybody else is stupid is not gonna get you a granted appeal

[ZZorange]

Are you referencing the fact that cult was in the game? Because in terms of anti-cult measures the town had no way to deal with the cult. I was initially under the impression that the witch doctor had gotten a night one heal off because there was a non killing mafia attack, however it turned out to be the arsonist getting hit as you can see in the replay. This is why I was surprised the Mayor wasn't culted. It should be said that in this save doctors could not prevent culting so, even had I been healing the mayor after his reveal i'd have no way of knowing if he had been culted or not. If you're referring to the "I'm Confirmed Town" and that one can't say it with certainty due to the cult. Well, that's the same for every other player, if the cult has spread there's no real defence you can give because no matter what role you say you are, you could have indeed been that role so giving a role in a cult hunt is largely pointless. As you have no concrete way to determine who is lying even with a potentially previously confirmed sheriff, but that's just cult.

Anyway upon seeing the fact that Mayor had retained his votes maintaining his town alignment I assumed it was relatively safe to believe that the cult was dead, as any cult worth their salt would convert a mayor whose conversion could not be prevented.

I said I'm confirmed town for two reasons.
A) As you might be aware of the Honest Man never lies. Not to say he's always right but the Honest Man never gives a statement he knows to be factually untrue.

B) As I had just seen that the Mayor hadn't been converted, I rightfully assumed the cult had been killed, as in most scenarios where doctors cannot prevent cultist conversion, the cultists would go for the Mayor Conversion thus making the following assumption that

9 Who had already outed himself to be a gamethrower, or was indeed the last neutral. As I was operating under the assumption that the cult was dead, I thought he was the last evil that needed to be lynched thus, anyone who was not 9, therefore is confirmed town. Me not being 9 counts as being confirmed. The fact that 9 was an evil role was hard confirmed again by the evidence that he accused someone of being Triad who was not so, and who was confirmed to not have been framed BTW. <--- This is important as it makes the fact that 9 was an evil role public knowledge.


Again you keep using the word gamethrowing, but as was previously explained the only way to do that was to lynch the Mayor.

Saying "everyone else is stupid" is a very broad stroke.

What i said what simply if you play the game in a way where if you aren't given a role or lw and you vote guilty because of that without consulting any other information before making your decision you are a bad player. That's what i stated, and i stand by it.

An easy example of this would be if an already revealed Mayor was put on the stand, voting guilty because the Mayor obviously didn't feel the need to type Hi I'm Mayor dummies, would be a terrible way to play the game, this would apply to doing the same to any other confirmed role.

If I had actually thrown the game you would be seeing a legitimate appeal. However we don't live in the reality where I threw that game. We exist in the reality where people are witch hunting a guy they don't like using pretty mediocre evidence. That's why I'm fighting against the offense itself and not going for an appeal. If you want to change the crime to one grounded in reality, I'd be happy to appeal that, but if you are using game throwing using the literal definition to throw the game it doesn't stick. Furthermore if you are instead trying to argue that there was the intent to throw the game, as was previously discussed, then I would not be attempting to lynch the last evil player and win the game for my town, and I'd also be advocating for lynching confirmed town roles like the spy or the Mayor. There is neither an actual gamethrow in this replay nor the intent to game throw.

So please if you want to continue this crusade bring real evidence my guys. If I'm going to be banned for gamethrowing, I am going to load up Sc2mafia and actually game throw because why wouldn't I if I'm going to be punished for it.

[MrMostache]

I bet all of this wouldn't have happened if Mayor didn't have a default name.

ZZorange, you are not the first person who tries to dance around the red line. You won't be the last. Unfortunately for you, you messed up by crossing it.
Note that Auwt gave you BLx2, but Arrow increased it to Blx4 because they went through the trouble of reading your previous appeal, and knew it was a waste.

[ZZorange]

Well MrMostache for once you are correct. It's considerably less likely this wouldn't have happened with a non default named Mayor, as the Mayor would likely have been much more intelligent, remembered what 9 had said earlier and not made the wrong call.

So to that I concede to you, you are entirely correct.