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Thread: It's a trap!

  1. ISO #1

    It's a trap!

    Today I learned a new term (Yay!) - Gish gallop.
    The Gish gallop is a term for an eristic technique in which a debater attempts to overwhelm an opponent by excessive number of arguments, without regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments.

    Do you know who's gameplay it immediately made me think of? If you guessed @Distorted , then you were completely correct! (And to a lesser extent blink too)
    Dude did it as either alignment, just for different reasons.


    But here is the part that inspired this threads title:
    If a debater is familiar with an opponent who is known to use the Gish gallop, the technique may be countered by pre-empting and refuting the opponent's commonly used arguments first, before the opponent has an opportunity to launch into a Gish gallop.

    I remember doing that instinctively in the past. (there's much much MUCH less arguing now than I remember 1 and 2 years ago, so no reason now)

    But when you do that, you get the "he is too concerned about how others view him = scum" comments.

    It's a trap!

    Just wanted to share a random thought. Nothing to see here, move along.
    Last edited by OzyWho; February 3rd, 2021 at 02:38 AM.

  2. ISO #2

  3. ISO #3

    Re: It's a trap!

    The fact it's an eristic technique is enough to make it scummy or at least somewhat suspicious to use in Mafia, though. At some point, people started actually scumreading Disto and Blink for doing that, so the strategy significantly lost of its efficiency. Trap avoided!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  4. ISO #4

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    The fact it's an eristic technique is enough to make it scummy or at least somewhat suspicious to use in Mafia, though. At some point, people started actually scumreading Disto and Blink for doing that, so the strategy significantly lost of its efficiency. Trap avoided!
    Why though? Seems to me like it's not unusual on SC2Mafia for some players to bullshit about other slots in order to test them or something. The only difference between that and Gish Gallop is how by much it is done.

    For all intents and purposes, the Gish Gallop is just a more intensive form of something that some players are doing except aren't being scumread for it. Might even call it more efficient because it pressures the targeted slots more.

    I imagine it's just like when sometimes players make the argument "I want x alive because I'm confident I can figure them out later as game goes on", except here it's "I can't handle them so I want them dead" camouflaged as "I think it's scummy".
    Both of which are bad for the game in my book.

  5. ISO #5

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Why though? Seems to me like it's not unusual on SC2Mafia for some players to bullshit about other slots in order to test them or something. The only difference between that and Gish Gallop is how by much it is done.

    For all intents and purposes, the Gish Gallop is just a more intensive form of something that some players are doing except aren't being scumread for it. Might even call it more efficient because it pressures the targeted slots more.

    I imagine it's just like when sometimes players make the argument "I want x alive because I'm confident I can figure them out later as game goes on", except here it's "I can't handle them so I want them dead" camouflaged as "I think it's scummy".
    Both of which are bad for the game in my book.
    The very essence of gish gallop, according to the definition you quoted, is to be intensive. If it's less intensive, then it's not gish gallop. Using arguments without spamming them intensively is perfectly normal; one could even say the opposite isn't. What isn't normal is "argument spam", and that is what gish gallop is.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  6. ISO #6

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    The very essence of gish gallop, according to the definition you quoted, is to be intensive. If it's less intensive, then it's not gish gallop.
    Yes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Using arguments without spamming them intensively is perfectly normal; one could even say the opposite isn't. What isn't normal is "argument spam", and that is what gish gallop is.
    Question was never if it's normal, nor is normal an argument.
    Especially in a game like FM.

  7. ISO #7

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Yes.




    Question was never if it's normal, nor is normal an argument.
    Especially in a game like FM.
    Fair, my choice of word was bad. Using arguments without spamming them is perfectly justified and helpful. It's necessary. Without arguments, it'd be pure shitposting.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  8. ISO #8

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Fair, my choice of word was bad. Using arguments without spamming them is perfectly justified and helpful. It's necessary. Without arguments, it'd be pure shitposting.
    What's the threshold for spam? It's the line between "justified/helpful" and "scummy" so it's important we define that line.
    Last edited by OzyWho; February 11th, 2021 at 12:09 AM.

  9. ISO #9

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    What's the threshold for spam? It's the line between "justified/helpful" and "scummy" so it's important we define that line.
    You are correct. That line is very hard to define, though. I'd say it's situational. Everything in Mafia is somewhat situational. That's why it's such a good game.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  10. ISO #10

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    You are correct. That line is very hard to define, though. I'd say it's situational. Everything in Mafia is somewhat situational. That's why it's such a good game.
    Let's back track a little here.

    Could you elaborate on the "justified and helpful' part a little bit? Fmpov, even though the words make for beautiful looking lone statements, they on their own are not much in terms of an argument. An improvement from "it's normal" though.

  11. ISO #11

    Re: It's a trap!

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Let's back track a little here.

    Could you elaborate on the "justified and helpful' part a little bit? Fmpov, even though the words make for beautiful looking lone statements, they on their own are not much in terms of an argument. An improvement from "it's normal" though.
    It all comes down to the intent of the posts' author, hence why it's situational. The line between "scummy tactic" and "a normal townie's playstyle" is defined by intent. If one spams arguments but thinks he's truly moving the game forward by doing so, he's not using scummy gish gallop, he's simply making a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

 

 

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