Why are non-setup-specific 'things' in setups?
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  1. #1

    Why are non-setup-specific 'things' in setups?

    Those are strange things to have in setups I think, I question their reason for being there.

    Time control - you can have any setup have any day/night lengths. No reason to have in setup pages.

    Rules - with the exception of some setups with special mechanics, rules have nothing to do with the setups.

    Lynch Types - while some setups might have it necessary to have plurality, I doubt that all setups can have only 1 possible option. Majority is optional almost always, no reason why a setup page shouldn't say so.

    Mafia Chats, Last Wills, Death Notes - we don't balance our setups so precise to not have them be optional.

    I'd prefer setups were something like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by <example>
    Lynch Type = [Plurality: obligatory | Majority: optional]
    Mafia Chats = [Night Chat: obligatory | Day Chat: Optional | Pregame Chat: Optional]
    LW/DN = [Optional]
    Role Flips = [Obligatory]
    There's the argument that we can change any optional things in the signups. But the argument has it's issues:
    -If someone wanted to change something when considering hosting a setup: they would first have to ask an FM mod if it's even an option to begin with. Now imagine you could skip the step when considering multiple setups to decide which you want to host.
    -In the case above: they don't do their role for which they were put in the setup pages.
    -Things that are optional from game to game basis, all players would from the beginning far more often know which is the option chosen for the game they're in. They're easier to miss in setup than in signup page, and when they read in setup page that something is optional they'd double check it on the signup page yet again.

    Players from other sites would feel less Alien here.
    Last edited by OzyWho; January 10th, 2021 at 03:45 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: Why are non-setup-specific 'things' in setups?

    Chats, last wills and death notes can absolutely be major balance elements. Maybe not in a PR madness setup, but in a communication-based setup, absolutely. It goes even further than that, considering last wills can make or break a game that is relatively cop-centered.

    As for the rest, my above point applies a bit less, but still apply: some phase lenghts are completely unplayable to some people (which would result in signups not filling), or are completely unfitting for some setups. It'd make pre-approved setups more touchy to use, too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, those decisions can be changed in the signups. What you seem not to have considered is that your suggestion will make it so that we ALWAYS have to make those decisions in the signups... which leads to even more questions about balance, about what people can and can't do, etc.
    Am I missing your point? Because I don't really see the improvement, sorry :P
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  3. #3

    Re: Why are non-setup-specific 'things' in setups?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Chats, last wills and death notes can absolutely be major balance elements. Maybe not in a PR madness setup, but in a communication-based setup, absolutely. It goes even further than that, considering last wills can make or break a game that is relatively cop-centered.

    As for the rest, my above point applies a bit less, but still apply: some phase lenghts are completely unplayable to some people (which would result in signups not filling), or are completely unfitting for some setups. It'd make pre-approved setups more touchy to use, too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, those decisions can be changed in the signups. What you seem not to have considered is that your suggestion will make it so that we ALWAYS have to make those decisions in the signups... which leads to even more questions about balance, about what people can and can't do, etc.
    Am I missing your point? Because I don't really see the improvement, sorry :P
    There's no questions about balance when it's pre-approved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Hence the different options for different setups..

    Whether different phase lengths are wanted or not has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion whether they should be in the setup page present. What's the argument there?

    Those things in your first paragraph - I'm not seeing the point/argument there either. I never suggested to have every option available in every setup, I suggested to approve what options are available for each setup (and which aren't) beforehand.

    You made it sound like making the decisions in the signups is a bad thing. Why? There's no difficulty from the Host's perspective to choose one of the pre-approved options. There's no inconvenience to the players.

    In theory, why would you want 5 different setup pages for 1 setup, just to change some optional things?
    Why would you want rules in signup + rules in setup, just so players have to walk back and forth to see what was originally and what was changed? This goes for everything. It's unnecessary mess, it's ugly. One setup has "host reserves x color" another has "host reserves y color", when neither has any point in being there and that's the sort of thing that would be dependant on host rather setup.
    Why wouldn't you have more variety freely available instead of having force it if wanted after, technically, the setups were already approved?

    Freely available variety for the cost of not having optional thing pre-determined. Things that should have no place in setup pages to begin with.

    Anyways. Doesn't matter. But it's ugly and restricting and wrong.

  4. #4

    Re: Why are non-setup-specific 'things' in setups?

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Whether different phase lengths are wanted or not has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion whether they should be in the setup page present. What's the argument there?
    It affects balance. Longer day = more discussion = harder for scum. They need to be in the setup page to account for balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Those things in your first paragraph - I'm not seeing the point/argument there either. I never suggested to have every option available in every setup, I suggested to approve what options are available for each setup (and which aren't) beforehand.
    Time, rules, lynch type, chats all greatly affect balance and need to be taken into account when considering to approve a setup or not. Once the setup is approved as appropriately balanced, nothing should be changed. Having these things in the setup is absolutely necessary and not really restrictive at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    You made it sound like making the decisions in the signups is a bad thing. Why? There's no difficulty from the Host's perspective to choose one of the pre-approved options. There's no inconvenience to the players.
    Some setups favor scum slightly. Having a longer day length can help swing the balance back toward being neutral. Having a bunch of different pre-approved setups and letting the host change a major game mechanic last minute will lead setups toward being even more imbalanced than most of them already are.
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  5. #5

    Re: Why are non-setup-specific 'things' in setups?

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    There's no questions about balance when it's pre-approved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Hence the different options for different setups..
    You don't have access to my inbox :P

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Whether different phase lengths are wanted or not has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion whether they should be in the setup page present. What's the argument there?
    I'm implying that usually, everything should be in the setup so that everything can be checked in one single page. Making it a standard to have setup info all over the place and not all in the setup page is "ugly and wrong" (to use your wording hehe), in addition to being highly impractical.

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Those things in your first paragraph - I'm not seeing the point/argument there either. I never suggested to have every option available in every setup, I suggested to approve what options are available for each setup (and which aren't) beforehand.
    It's pretty rare to have that many valid options.

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    You made it sound like making the decisions in the signups is a bad thing. Why? There's no difficulty from the Host's perspective to choose one of the pre-approved options. There's no inconvenience to the players.
    Not having everything on the same page absolutely is an inconvenience to the players, and even sometimes results in confusion, despite pings being made in the signups thread. It's not forbidden and can absolutely be done, but it's not ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    In theory, why would you want 5 different setup pages for 1 setup, just to change some optional things?
    Why would you want rules in signup + rules in setup, just so players have to walk back and forth to see what was originally and what was changed? This goes for everything. It's unnecessary mess, it's ugly. One setup has "host reserves x color" another has "host reserves y color", when neither has any point in being there and that's the sort of thing that would be dependant on host rather setup.
    Why wouldn't you have more variety freely available instead of having force it if wanted after, technically, the setups were already approved?

    Freely available variety for the cost of not having optional thing pre-determined. Things that should have no place in setup pages to begin with.

    Anyways. Doesn't matter. But it's ugly and restricting and wrong.
    You can change small things in the signups if you want to, though. You just have to clearly specify it and to get FM staff permission. Even though it's suboptimal, forcing people to make a new setup for relatively minor and simple changes like the ones you're talking about would be dumb lol. What you're suggesting is however to make this happen all the time... which isn't good. Since it doesn't truly make more variety freely available (any positive variety concerned by your suggestion could be created under the current system), there seem to be only drawbacks. Sorry.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

 

 

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