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  1. ISO #201

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    so what exactly is the reasoning for this vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    in before this is scum not knowing how to react as not to be scumread after Paul replaced out
    Planting a seed of mistrust. This is noted in our Evidence.
    Hybrid's first reaction to gray's weird post was the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    disregard, I’m retarded
    All is forgiven, as all of the evidence points to genuine confusion.
    Then the moment gray backtracked on it he just immediately let it go. If he townreads gray, the first post is just a random shade to dismantle the suspicion. If he scumreads gray, letting go of the backtrack is really weird. Even if he nullreads gray this progression doesn't make sense to me from the pov of someone trying to read slots.

    In the wider context of the fact they literally replied to my attack on their dodging with RP with a dodge with RP, it feels like the slot is more concerned with defusing every situation / dodging pressure. Hence the vote.

    that is what was going through my head when I casted the vote
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  2. ISO #202

  3. ISO #203

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Jesus Christ, I just can’t.
    i’m not sitting at the sides you doofus. maybe if you’d actually bothered to read the thread you woulda seen that. I agree with this train 100%, I just can’t deal with your attitude. Stop. As scum it made me AFK out of the game, as town it just makes angry and not wanna talk to you
    want my reads on Wiisp? Here, you’ve got them:
    wiisp is sitting at the sides, throwing weird shade at ppl. reminds me of the last time I played with him when we were both scum together, but what really pinged me was the way he was calling out ppl for scummy things, he would add a diminutive to lessen them, and make them somewhat ambiguous, like the way he said ‘kinda wolfy

  4. ISO #204

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Claiming to be stronger than many players on this site is like calming you can run faster than everyone at a wheelchair convention.
    And you continue to ignore suggestions that we have good information in our posts that you have missed
    no you dont, and im glad you can insult your own site with such ease lol

  5. ISO #205

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    Hybrid's first reaction to gray's weird post was the above.



    Then the moment gray backtracked on it he just immediately let it go. If he townreads gray, the first post is just a random shade to dismantle the suspicion. If he scumreads gray, letting go of the backtrack is really weird. Even if he nullreads gray this progression doesn't make sense to me from the pov of someone trying to read slots.

    In the wider context of the fact they literally replied to my attack on their dodging with RP with a dodge with RP, it feels like the slot is more concerned with defusing every situation / dodging pressure. Hence the vote.

    that is what was going through my head when I casted the vote
    Dunno, pretty sure that is something I woulda done in games as well. I don’t think it’s AI. At worst its town indicative but I don’t think it is.

  6. ISO #206

  7. ISO #207

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Jesus Christ, I just can’t.
    i’m not sitting at the sides you doofus. maybe if you’d actually bothered to read the thread you woulda seen that. I agree with this train 100%, I just can’t deal with your attitude. Stop. As scum it made me AFK out of the game, as town it just makes angry and not wanna talk to you
    want my reads on Wiisp? Here, you’ve got them:
    wiisp is sitting at the sides, throwing weird shade at ppl. reminds me of the last time I played with him when we were both scum together, but what really pinged me was the way he was calling out ppl for scummy things, he would add a diminutive to lessen them, and make them somewhat ambiguous, like the way he said ‘kinda wolfy
    lol its called be hedgy, i am way more hedgy then I used to be, and nothing said so far has been definitive, its mostly based on what people perceive, some people may jump to conclusions, but I certainly will not
    I will spend more time trying to get others to participate, and/or getting people to be more clear with their thoughts
    but I like this post, thanks for this

  8. ISO #208

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Dunno, pretty sure that is something I woulda done in games as well. I don’t think it’s AI. At worst its town indicative but I don’t think it is.
    I've seen towns do it too. It's not like I have lock-scum reasoning. Wiisp asked and I gave.

    Even outside of that I just get bad vibes from the slot. I know the slot gives off all these little low-effort town vibes but the ppl behind the slot are clearly totally sweating out the game lol.

    But yes, not exactly lock-scum reasoning. I misread BC a year ago for giving the same incorrect vibes, so I get I need to be cautious here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  9. ISO #209

  10. ISO #210

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    I need to go away because this interaction made me so angry for like no reason lol. Bye
    eh, don't sweat it. Enjoy a nice bath or something
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  11. ISO #211

  12. ISO #212

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Jesus Christ, I just can’t.
    i’m not sitting at the sides you doofus. maybe if you’d actually bothered to read the thread you woulda seen that. I agree with this train 100%, I just can’t deal with your attitude. Stop. As scum it made me AFK out of the game, as town it just makes angry and not wanna talk to you
    want my reads on Wiisp? Here, you’ve got them:
    wiisp is sitting at the sides, throwing weird shade at ppl. reminds me of the last time I played with him when we were both scum together, but what really pinged me was the way he was calling out ppl for scummy things, he would add a diminutive to lessen them, and make them somewhat ambiguous, like the way he said ‘kinda wolfy
    It is all too easy to mistake passion that can change its mind for fundamentalism, which never will.

  13. ISO #213

  14. ISO #214

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I've seen towns do it too. It's not like I have lock-scum reasoning. Wiisp asked and I gave.

    Even outside of that I just get bad vibes from the slot. I know the slot gives off all these little low-effort town vibes but the ppl behind the slot are clearly totally sweating out the game lol.

    But yes, not exactly lock-scum reasoning. I misread BC a year ago for giving the same incorrect vibes, so I get I need to be cautious here.
    Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

  15. ISO #215

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    I'm also a little unsettled by the drastic character change of wiisp after being voted from like, telling me to drink water and mind-melding with me about anxiety to declaring themselves one of the best players on the site and going hard aggro mode. If this is just a character trait and not some insane flipflop I'd appreciate input on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  16. ISO #216

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    I will be back tomorrow. If someone scumpaints me or tries to for ‘not being pushy’, I’m not always pushy and when I am its almost like random chance, I don’t know how to trigger it, sometimes I am, sometimes I’m not. Don’t blame me for playing this. I don’t always play aggressively, even though I wish I did, because I don’t always see the same things I see when I’m 100% focused and reading properly. I thought I knew how to trigger that, and tried to the at the beginning of the game by reading various posts over and over and over, but I just can’t always do it. Sometimes when it does happen its like a brief moment when I see something very clearly, like when SJ pointed out Wiisp’s posts, but it quickly fades.

  17. ISO #217

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by SamsungLyssa View Post
    I havent looked at my role yet, not sure if my other head has
    Just got vaccinated
    /vote yzb25
    is this another anon archon or do we get to know the names of the ppl behind it
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  18. ISO #218

  19. ISO #219

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I'm also a little unsettled by the drastic character change of wiisp after being voted from like, telling me to drink water and mind-melding with me about anxiety to declaring themselves one of the best players on the site and going hard aggro mode. If this is just a character trait and not some insane flipflop I'd appreciate input on that.
    you are certainly in for a magical ride then lol

  20. ISO #220

  21. ISO #221

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I'm also a little unsettled by the drastic character change of wiisp after being voted from like, telling me to drink water and mind-melding with me about anxiety to declaring themselves one of the best players on the site and going hard aggro mode. If this is just a character trait and not some insane flipflop I'd appreciate input on that.
    Wiisp used to be this insane aggro person when he first played here. He mentioned changing his playstyle so mb all thats happened is that hes learnt to control it, but at the core he is still the same Wiisp as before

  22. ISO #222

  23. ISO #223

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    I invited them into the game so I know both their COMs, but I don’t think I can tell?
    I'm kind of enjoying the agony of not knowing if there even is another account in Richard Dawkins aside SJ and how tf I should go about reading the slot, so maybe I can derive the same pleasure from this. Depending on how eye-gouging this goes I might start begging u to tell me tho XD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  24. ISO #224

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Wiisp used to be this insane aggro person when he first played here. He mentioned changing his playstyle so mb all thats happened is that hes learnt to control it, but at the core he is still the same Wiisp as before
    I got the hint they used to be more aggro. I was wondering if there was precedent for character switches. But I guess I can rationalize a town!pov for cracking when they did. I'ma have to chew on that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  25. ISO #225

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    A few thoughts after digging through the setup-

    God should not Doc
    Priest should keep in mind scum keep their chat after death before going for some FPS stuff
    Counsellor should use their ability early- Be cautious that hitting a scum would allow them to TPR hunt you and share the info to their team, I think this role is less likely given Priest's function although you could host meta the value of multiple chats in a long day phase game
    Soul Probe is likely one of our two TPR's for game balance

    God and Priest can mechanically confirm by slots, God can confirm 1 slot via check, Counsellor, Knight and Guardian can semi-confirm. There is a potential 'best case' situation of a town block of 5 mechanically
    TPR should be cautious in confirming their role given Satans 1 shot role guess kill so keep that in mind if you vig a night immune or get a scum peek.
    For this reason citizens should not claim Angel to provide TPR cover from Satans 1 shot role guess

    I 'think' permanent chat refers to scum getting a wolf chat thats active during the day as well but waiting for confirmation on that. Given the amount of time I would not be surprised to see some coordinated play. It also means that under pressure they can phone a friend for advice which opens up some scum hunting potentials.

    @AIVION Are players informed when they are being killed by Satan at days start or do they just surprise flip at EOD?
    If so given Satan's kill functions like a poisoner we should daily treat the killed as confirmed town and they should role claim as that Satans role guess is a night action (post flip for them)

    Will catch up on chat and such after I dig up an old avatar thats all too fitting for this game : )
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  26. ISO #226

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I'm also a little unsettled by the drastic character change of wiisp after being voted from like, telling me to drink water and mind-melding with me about anxiety to declaring themselves one of the best players on the site and going hard aggro mode. If this is just a character trait and not some insane flipflop I'd appreciate input on that.
    Are you asking for someone to tell you how you should read someone? this isn't what a townsfolk would do.

    Also, easy way to tell the different between me and my asshole partner is that I can actually play Mafia, the other is from a roleplaying site who lacks much Mafia skill.

  27. ISO #227

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Are you asking for someone to tell you how you should read someone? this isn't what a townsfolk would do.

    Also, easy way to tell the different between me and my asshole partner is that I can actually play Mafia, the other is from a roleplaying site who lacks much Mafia skill.
    I profoundly disagree lol. I do that all the time. I literally did it in this game.

  28. ISO #228

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Are you asking for someone to tell you how you should read someone? this isn't what a townsfolk would do.

    Also, easy way to tell the different between me and my asshole partner is that I can actually play Mafia, the other is from a roleplaying site who lacks much Mafia skill.
    the first is pretty subjective
    and lol to the second comment

    -unvote

    since I do not care much for yeeting this slot atm, after they responded with some real thoughts
    debating on y2b, but I am about to raid soon in WoW

  29. ISO #229

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    A few thoughts after digging through the setup-

    God should not Doc
    Priest should keep in mind scum keep their chat after death before going for some FPS stuff
    Counsellor should use their ability early- Be cautious that hitting a scum would allow them to TPR hunt you and share the info to their team, I think this role is less likely given Priest's function although you could host meta the value of multiple chats in a long day phase game
    Soul Probe is likely one of our two TPR's for game balance

    God and Priest can mechanically confirm by slots, God can confirm 1 slot via check, Counsellor, Knight and Guardian can semi-confirm. There is a potential 'best case' situation of a town block of 5 mechanically
    TPR should be cautious in confirming their role given Satans 1 shot role guess kill so keep that in mind if you vig a night immune or get a scum peek.
    For this reason citizens should not claim Angel to provide TPR cover from Satans 1 shot role guess

    I 'think' permanent chat refers to scum getting a wolf chat thats active during the day as well but waiting for confirmation on that. Given the amount of time I would not be surprised to see some coordinated play. It also means that under pressure they can phone a friend for advice which opens up some scum hunting potentials.

    @AIVION Are players informed when they are being killed by Satan at days start or do they just surprise flip at EOD?
    If so given Satan's kill functions like a poisoner we should daily treat the killed as confirmed town and they should role claim as that Satans role guess is a night action (post flip for them)

    Will catch up on chat and such after I dig up an old avatar thats all too fitting for this game : )
    I find it concerning that all this is pro-town setup analysis which is very easy to do and scores easy town credibility . You should of also handed out tips for the Satan team.

    On that note we ask the Counsellor to invite us to talk at night. We promise not to upset you sanity

  30. ISO #230

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Are you asking for someone to tell you how you should read someone? this isn't what a townsfolk would do.

    Also, easy way to tell the different between me and my asshole partner is that I can actually play Mafia, the other is from a roleplaying site who lacks much Mafia skill.
    I don't know how on earth my posts gave the impression I'm sheeping someone else's read. Asking whether something is part of someone's meta to prevent misreading off of something NAI is an extremely common occurence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  31. ISO #231

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    I profoundly disagree lol. I do that all the time. I literally did it in this game.
    Why are you defending someone else so early in the game and not allowing us to push for interaction for alignment indication?


    Wiisp leaving the room taking the highchair and backing away under the guise their goal was to only push for contect

  32. ISO #232

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I don't know how on earth my posts gave the impression I'm sheeping someone else's read. Asking whether something is part of someone's meta to prevent misreading off of something NAI is an extremely common occurence.
    Oh hey, can someone let me know if I can scum read them for playing this K THANKS BYE.

  33. ISO #233

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    I will be back tomorrow. If someone scumpaints me or tries to for ‘not being pushy’, I’m not always pushy and when I am its almost like random chance, I don’t know how to trigger it, sometimes I am, sometimes I’m not. Don’t blame me for playing this. I don’t always play aggressively, even though I wish I did, because I don’t always see the same things I see when I’m 100% focused and reading properly. I thought I knew how to trigger that, and tried to the at the beginning of the game by reading various posts over and over and over, but I just can’t always do it. Sometimes when it does happen its like a brief moment when I see something very clearly, like when SJ pointed out Wiisp’s posts, but it quickly fades.
    Remember when I called out Wiisp for telling people how they should read them.
    Yeh Grayswandir also just done that.

  34. ISO #234

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Oh hey, can someone let me know if I can scum read them for playing this K THANKS BYE.
    bruh
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  35. ISO #235

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Why are you defending someone else so early in the game and not allowing us to push for interaction for alignment indication?


    Wiisp leaving the room taking the highchair and backing away under the guise their goal was to only push for contect
    You’re right. My bad. Go ahead.

  36. ISO #236

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Remember when I called out Wiisp for telling people how they should read them.
    Yeh Grayswandir also just done that.
    Have you ever actually seen scum do that? 3/3 games I’ve seen ppl accuse others of doing it, all the people getting accused were town. Honestly, this point seems really forced. No offense but you are reading WAY too much into everything ppl do.

  37. ISO #237

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Have you ever actually seen scum do that? 3/3 games I’ve seen ppl accuse others of doing it, all the people getting accused were town. Honestly, this point seems really forced. No offense but you are reading WAY too much into everything ppl do.
    I mean we could go back to just spamming about atheism if reading way too much into everything people do is too much for you to keep up with

  38. ISO #238

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    No offense but you are reading WAY too much into everything ppl do.
    I think thats exactly what we should be doing to break RVS
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  39. ISO #239

  40. ISO #240

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Hello boobies
    Its totally ok because for some reason you can show 99% of the boobs as long as the nipple is covered

    And this is my master plan to distract players from reading me : )
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  41. ISO #241

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    I mean we could go back to just spamming about atheism if reading way too much into everything people do is too much for you to keep up with
    Well-done with your first easily noticeable content post. But you have to remember I'm the clever one. You're the potatoe one.

    Also to Grey, a read requires gathering many pieces of evidence. They may start off small and non alignment indication alone, yet puzzle with others and we get an understanding.

    You have to accounts for all possible variables to get an accurate reading.

  42. ISO #242

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid Richard Dawkins View Post
    Well-done with your first easily noticeable content post. But you have to remember I'm the clever one. You're the potatoe one.

    Also to Grey, a read requires gathering many pieces of evidence. They may start off small and non alignment indication alone, yet puzzle with others and we get an understanding.

    You have to accounts for all possible variables to get an accurate reading.
    You’re right. I’m just getting angry at stupid shit for no reason right now, sorry if I’m being unreasonable. I will take a break to cool down. Also, please tell the other person in tbe account to chill out. Not interested in pissing matches with them.

  43. ISO #243

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by AIVION View Post
    Smited:
    No one's met their maker just yet!
    I wonder who Gods maker is
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  44. ISO #244

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Seems to me that a few players in this game hold their skill in high regard.

    Anyone up for a little mini contest? We could PM the host our daily reads so people can't just cherry pick the times they were right post game for a bit of giggles and bragging rights : )
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  45. ISO #245

  46. ISO #246

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Seems to me that a few players in this game hold their skill in high regard.

    Anyone up for a little mini contest? We could PM the host our daily reads so people can't just cherry pick the times they were right post game for a bit of giggles and bragging rights : )
    maybe towards the end of day 1, I might try this out
    anyways, I like you, you can be town

    hybrid can be town as well

  47. ISO #247

    Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    maybe towards the end of day 1, I might try this out
    anyways, I like you, you can be town

    hybrid can be town as well
    Strange. I only have 1 post of substance and 0 player analysis. You gave me that town cred pretty easily.

    What makes you town lean me from that setup analysis post?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  48. ISO #248

  49. ISO #249

  50. ISO #250

 

 

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