S-FM 317: Eternia [LADDER]

[MattZed]

I would agree. Even if I am right it would be poor form to skip over and over. We may want to consider a gentleman's agreement to acknowledge the town won here and not skip more than today to preserve the game.

I'm not accepting a skip limit that is lower than 2. If we end up skipping a second day we can ask to turbo a night or something, but one more sheriff's check could really make the difference between a solved game and an almost-solved game.

[Helz]

I'm not accepting a skip limit that is lower than 2. If we end up skipping a second day we can ask to turbo a night or something, but one more sheriff's check could really make the difference between a solved game and an almost-solved game.

Thats kinda the point.

Keeping it 'almost solved' preserves a game while solving it eliminates the point of playing it out at all.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

To those disagreeing with the proposal of being reasonable with skips: I'm saying the following as a completely NAI thing I'd say as either alignment, and this isn't me trying to "look nice" or to "advantage my team" or w/e; I just want the game to be fair.

It's quite obvious that a game without factional kills isn't meant to be skippable forever. Hoping to have a sheriff and going skip skip skip isn't in the spirit of the game, and I really think we should have respect for the spirit of the game here.

[MattZed]

Thats kinda the point.

Keeping it 'almost solved' preserves a game while solving it eliminates the point of playing it out at all.

Why would we only want to half-exploit a mechanic? Either I want to honor the usual convention that town needs to yeet every day, or I want to use everything possible I can to win. I don't see a middle ground here.

[MattZed]

To those disagreeing with the proposal of being reasonable with skips: I'm saying the following as a completely NAI thing I'd say as either alignment, and this isn't me trying to "look nice" or to "advantage my team" or w/e; I just want the game to be fair.

It's quite obvious that a game without factional kills isn't meant to be skippable forever. Hoping to have a sheriff and going skip skip skip isn't in the spirit of the game, and I really think we should have respect for the spirit of the game here.

Why makes one skip okay that doesn't also make two skips okay?

I can follow you on "spirit of the game," but a skip is *always* going to make the game more townsided. Doesn't matter if it's the first skip, the second skip, or the SEVENTH skip.

I'm also not sure I really agree it's against the spirit of the game. What's the point of removing the factional night kill and not making yeet mandatory if this wasn't the desired result?

[Helz]

Why would we only want to half-exploit a mechanic? Either I want to honor the usual convention that town needs to yeet every day, or I want to use everything possible I can to win. I don't see a middle ground here.

Mandatory lynch is a terrible mechanic imo. When you get into a situation where its misslynch and lose its often a great option to skip and allow another kpn to improve the towns standing. I do not believe that mandatory is a 'normal' mechanic at all. I just recognized how broken it is in this unique setup given the lack of KpN.

I play for the experience and not the result. I would rather beat the scum team straight up than take a boring win for some ladder points I dont give a shit about.

[Helz]

I'm also not sure I really agree it's against the spirit of the game. What's the point of removing the factional night kill and not making yeet mandatory if this wasn't the desired result?

I think this was an oversight. I pointed out pre-game that I thought the game was balanced around a senator existing and I felt it was town sided.

I really doubt Stealth had any 'desire' for me to step in and tear apart his setup to the point that it does not require scum hunting to win.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Mandatory lynch is a terrible mechanic imo. When you get into a situation where its misslynch and lose its often a great option to skip and allow another kpn to improve the towns standing. I do not believe that mandatory is a 'normal' mechanic at all. I just recognized how broken it is in this unique setup given the lack of KpN.

I play for the experience and not the result. I would rather beat the scum team straight up than take a boring win for some ladder points I dont give a shit about.

And I'd rather actually deserve my ladder points lol.

[MattZed]

Mandatory lynch is a terrible mechanic imo. When you get into a situation where its misslynch and lose its often a great option to skip and allow another kpn to improve the towns standing. I do not believe that mandatory is a 'normal' mechanic at all. I just recognized how broken it is in this unique setup given the lack of KpN.

I play for the experience and not the result. I would rather beat the scum team straight up than take a boring win for some ladder points I dont give a shit about.

I prefer yeeting during MYLO because you can't get stealth hammered from one town misvote, (nevermind the fact that the town would kill after a skip usually wasn't on the chopping block anyways) but I suppose we'll have to disagree on MYLO vs LYLO there.

I'm going to take as much time as I need. If I need two skips to, say, get through Mike and FrostByte ISOs, I'll advocate for the second skip. If I can get that all done today/D3, then I'll probably have the game solved from reads alone and just push that. But I'm not going to agree to limit skips purely on "gentlemanly" grounds.

[Helz]

I suppose some players like the chase while others like the catch.

Some like the chase while others like the catch I suppose. We can chat about ways to approach MYLO post game but I think its very situational.

https://ibb.co/6r05ZHY
My backyard is calling me and its a chainsaw kinda day.

I would encourage players to voice thoughts and pressure others to voice thoughts on the skip situation.

[Oberon]

I think this was an oversight. I pointed out pre-game that I thought the game was balanced around a senator existing and I felt it was town sided.

I really doubt Stealth had any 'desire' for me to step in and tear apart his setup to the point that it does not require scum hunting to win.

I 100% agree with this. Needing to disallow skipping is itself evidence of poor setup balance. I say this as my games are plagued with this issue lol

[Mike]

Please explain what exactly tells you this is MM's town game, especially



I actively see a scum perspective in what he's been up to. Throwing shade on me because I was making D1 productive, misrepping why I cast my votes, trying to take credit for getting everyone to announce they weren't CC'ing Oberon. (even if he's now backed down from saying that's what he was doing) His top scumreads, Oberon and DM, have turned up town.




Yes, I want you on MM. If you're thinking Mike is scum, think about who his partner could be: It's not you, (you voted him) it's Frinckles (he was on the Mike train), it's not me. (he's willing to accept my thunderdome and switch to me) So it's Helz, FB, or MM. I think we both agree Helz has been incredibly towny this whole game, especially with his push to not yeet before we found out we couldn't. So unless you think FB is Mike's partner, you're still catching scum. (For the record, I think MM is scum and I don't have a strong opinion on partners between FB and Mike atm, but probably would when I get around to ISO'ing them)

Let me understand this correctly. We should lynch MM Because first you said he is the only one who could be my mafia partner. Now it can be FB. If me and FB where partners why defend MM? Why not go along with you and bury MM. So we are back to the world me and MM are partners why would FB be defending MM? The problem I have with your logic is there is only 2 mafia. Well there is a neutral. But why would an exe or guardian side with scum????

Well there can be a world FB and MM are teamed and I am hard pocketed. @Helz what is your perspective on this world @Oberon and you? I truly want to hear you thoughts.

[Oberon]

Mm is not scum this game @Mike

[Oberon]

Im not ever lynching MM, period.

[Mesk514]

Given we will be skipping today, I am going to continue my day at work and not rush myself to follow along. But I'll be around a little later. 4 hoursish

[Mike]

Mm is not scum this game @Mike

Ty I thought so.

[Mike]

Actually, my bad, I didn't see that voting was mandatory only D1.
Vote skip is allowed. Just don't abuse it please.

@Oberon
@FrostByte
@Frinckles
@Mesk514
@Mike
@MattZed
@Helz
@Marshmallow Marshall

Wow nice

-vote skip

[Helz]

Wow nice

-vote skip

Skip is at L1 again. Someone please unvote.

Also I am pretty comfortable with FB.

[Mike]

I suppose some players like the chase while others like the catch.

Some like the chase while others like the catch I suppose. We can chat about ways to approach MYLO post game but I think its very situational.

https://ibb.co/6r05ZHY
My backyard is calling me and its a chainsaw kinda day.

I would encourage players to voice thoughts and pressure others to voice thoughts on the skip situation.

Well I do not see anything wrong with it because mafia may have a buss driver. So how is that not balanced? We still have to trust our reads.

For example left say I am TPR2 I am sheriff night 1 I checked MM got a green check. Now we skip night 2 I check Helz I get a red check. We skip a second day I check FB I get a Green check.
Now what I don’t know is the mafia is MM and FB. Night 1 the mafia bussed there partner with MM night 2 Mafia bussed them self with Helz night 3 mafia bussed FB with there partner.

We now have the 2 mafia as confirmed town. Do you not see that skipping is not cheating? But one advantage town has is mafia does not know who the sheriff is checking.

No if no one was roleblocked I belive they prob would have an agent. And no night KP and no day KP and no one claimed jailed. They prob have buss driver.

If mafia has buss driver and agent that is a bit town sided. Mafia is fucked lol. I would be pissed if I was mafia.

[Mike]

Skip is at L1 again. Someone please unvote.

Also I am pretty comfortable with FB.

If anyone hammers we auto lynch them in the morning. Leave it at L1. Anyone town would not hammer here.

[Mike]

Skip is at L1 again. Someone please unvote.

Also I am pretty comfortable with FB.

Also what do you mean you are comfortable with FB as in town or Mafia?

[Mike]

Now if we don’t have a sheriff this game will never end if there is no night KP. This is an odd setup.

[Mike]

Plus helz what more info are we going to get from today?

[Helz]

Also what do you mean you are comfortable with FB as in town or Mafia?

I read FB as pretty townie. That was the one thing I did with the night cycle. Had a feeling they were scum and had a scum buddy push a counter wagon or something to wiggle them out of a lynch but FB looks pretty good to me.

Now if we don’t have a sheriff this game will never end if there is no night KP. This is an odd setup.

We dont need to depend on potential sheriffs peeks. We can scum hunt.

[Mike]

No one was role blocked no one was jailed. The only 2 mafia roles that give feedback other than the mafia journalist. But we have confirmed that is not in game. Becise only Oberon is TPR 1. Freckles asked for the TOR2 to out I scum read him more for it. But I am starting to see his perspective. If there is no night KP then why hide.

But helz is worried about an ass or a night hitman holding there shot. Time to find out. Becise I don’t think there is an ass or a night hitman.

What if I claimed TPR2

[Helz]

Plus helz what more info are we going to get from today?

We could get a ton. We could scum hunt and have conversation.

Or we could get nothing. People could fold their arms and wait until tomorrow to see if there is some sheriff peek that will solve the game for them.

Really depends on how much people actually want to play.

[Mike]

I read FB as pretty townie. That was the one thing I did with the night cycle. Had a feeling they were scum and had a scum buddy push a counter wagon or something to wiggle them out of a lynch but FB looks pretty good to me.

We dont need to depend on potential sheriffs peeks. We can scum hunt.

I agree FB and MM with you and Oberon are my top town.

[Helz]

No one was role blocked no one was jailed. The only 2 mafia roles that give feedback other than the mafia journalist. But we have confirmed that is not in game. Becise only Oberon is TPR 1. Freckles asked for the TOR2 to out I scum read him more for it. But I am starting to see his perspective. If there is no night KP then why hide.

But helz is worried about an ass or a night hitman holding there shot. Time to find out. Becise I don’t think there is an ass or a night hitman.

What if I claimed TPR2

Uhh..

I think you just made a poor decision if you are TPR2. If you are please do not claim what role you are.

I personally expect Mafia to hold their kill if they do not feel they are at real risk of being lynched given they have limited kills. Its what I would do especially if I was afraid of a potential BG.

[Mike]

Uhh..

I think you just made a poor decision if you are TPR2. If you are please do not claim what role you are.

I personally expect Mafia to hold their kill if they do not feel they are at real risk of being lynched given they have limited kills. Its what I would do especially if I was afraid of a potential BG.

You claim TPR2 also

[Mike]

Time to wifom the mafia lol

[Helz]

You claim TPR2 also

I think its a bit late for that. I have been pretty balls out challenging the Mafia to kill me to shut me up all game. Lol

[Helz]

I have decided that I am straight the fuck up obsessed with this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cRIYZWFwOw

Anyways, I am going to start digging through some association stuffs. I would encourage everyone not to hammer the day skip. Bringing it back from L1 would also be a good idea.

[Mike]

I think its a bit late for that. I have been pretty balls out challenging the Mafia to kill me to shut me up all game. Lol

We both have. I honestly don’t think they have KPn. The only person who is town that would know the mafia roel would be the TPR 2. Think about it.

If the TPR 2 is doc or bg then there would be KPN like a hitman but of the TPR 2 is a sheriff then most likly the mafia role would be the buss driver.

I know MM said not to use MoD thought. But the mod would have to pick roles. Or else you could end up with a medic and mafia a buss driver. Then the town PR2 would be useless. So there has to be some balance put in.

@Helz what are your thoughts on this

[Mike]

I have decided that I am straight the fuck up obsessed with this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cRIYZWFwOw

Anyways, I am going to start digging through some association stuffs. I would encourage everyone not to hammer the day skip. Bringing it back from L1 would also be a good idea.

Fine

-unvote

[Helz]

We both have. I honestly don’t think they have KPn. The only person who is town that would know the mafia roel would be the TPR 2. Think about it.

If the TPR 2 is doc or bg then there would be KPN like a hitman but of the TPR 2 is a sheriff then most likly the mafia role would be the buss driver.

I know MM said not to use MoD thought. But the mod would have to pick roles. Or else you could end up with a medic and mafia a buss driver. Then the town PR2 would be useless. So there has to be some balance put in.

@Helz what are your thoughts on this

Yeah, Thats pretty much what I was getting at earlier. Our TPR2 is very informed and our TPR1 can give voice to that while protecting them from revealing.

[Helz]

Not sure it holds any value to say but our base case situation tonight is of Obe targets TPR2 and they are sheriff revealing N1 peek. Obe would then have himself and TPR2 confirmed as well as the peek voicing a strong alignment indicator.

If TPR2 is a doc or BG they could voice it and we would know there is very likely a hitman while Obe would once again have himself and TPR2 confirmed.

In effect- that journalist role has the potential to clear a slot the same as a sheriff could while providing the town with critical information on the mafia role composition.

[Helz]

Best^

[MattZed]

I don't think I'll be able to finish my Mike ISO before EoD, but it should be done and in my LW before the end of N2.

[Helz]

If you are scum pray to Belphegor. He may be your only hope : )

[Mesk514]

wazzzzzzap

[Mesk514]

wew good conversation going on here i see

[Helz]

wew good conversation going on here i see

I was more lurking to see what you would do without interaction.

Who are your top 3 scum leans?

[Mesk514]

I was more lurking to see what you would do without interaction.

Who are your top 3 scum leans?

Mike is number one two and three, lol. and if I have to highlight why again, I will... but i wont get over his asskissing and such from yesterday. Not to mention the fact he's literally had like zero interaction with me, no rebuttal to any of my points (that i see or remember), and just all around scum behaviour.

I've kind of just been banking on him being scum. Everyone else is playing rather, uh, well. LOL

I suspect there's a scum between frinckles and MM for sure, but if i were to think about preflip associations (which I hate), I would lean more towards frinckles being with Mike, honestly. While Frinckles believes mike to be scum, it appears to me that it comes from more of a "i know he's scum" mindset rather than a "i believe him to be scum" mindset.

FrostByte seems alright to me, no clue where to align this person.

Oberon is either real tpr or not, so I think that slot works itself out in due time, but I don't see any association with mike at all, so a scum oberon would go against my theory.

Between you and MZ, I don't think I can see either of you being scum with a teammate, but I could see either of you being neutral. From my understanding, neuts pretty much have their own win condition and some are pretty pro town or have the ability to kind of take a pro stance as they can with with town if they complete their objective. So with that being said, I find it would be easy for either of you to play with a town mindset given you can easily align yourself with town and their wincon.

Although I was attempting to make MZ see the light of day with Mike, i would lean more towards him as being the neut over you. He seems to have a more of an invested interest in his scum leans. But hey, I'll allow him or any neut to dictate the way of the game if they vote with us, lol.

i think i touched upon everyone
did i miss someone?

in case I'm not clear

Mike => #1 scum read. when we're done our skipping phase, lynch him. sheriff, check him

Frinckles/MM => at least one of these two is scum. leaning toward frinckles if Mike is actually scum

MM => can see more as a neut than mafia

MZ => neut, if not, town.
Helz=> neut, if not, town.

Frostbye=> eh, probably just town given I feel pretty confident in my leans on other people
Oberon=> will sort himself, but if he's scum i have no damn fucking clue.

So I guess at this point, I really truly only think Frostbyte would be town, cause i don't see anything scummy or out of the ordinary

so final list would really be

Town:
Me
DM
Oberon
Frostbyte
MZ
Helz

MM

Frinckles
Mike

[Helz]

Mike is number one two and three, lol. and if I have to highlight why again, I will... but i wont get over his asskissing and such from yesterday. Not to mention the fact he's literally had like zero interaction with me, no rebuttal to any of my points (that i see or remember), and just all around scum behaviour.

I've kind of just been banking on him being scum. Everyone else is playing rather, uh, well. LOL

I suspect there's a scum between frinckles and MM for sure, but if i were to think about preflip associations (which I hate), I would lean more towards frinckles being with Mike, honestly. While Frinckles believes mike to be scum, it appears to me that it comes from more of a "i know he's scum" mindset rather than a "i believe him to be scum" mindset.

FrostByte seems alright to me, no clue where to align this person.

Oberon is either real tpr or not, so I think that slot works itself out in due time, but I don't see any association with mike at all, so a scum oberon would go against my theory.

Between you and MZ, I don't think I can see either of you being scum with a teammate, but I could see either of you being neutral. From my understanding, neuts pretty much have their own win condition and some are pretty pro town or have the ability to kind of take a pro stance as they can with with town if they complete their objective. So with that being said, I find it would be easy for either of you to play with a town mindset given you can easily align yourself with town and their wincon.

Although I was attempting to make MZ see the light of day with Mike, i would lean more towards him as being the neut over you. He seems to have a more of an invested interest in his scum leans. But hey, I'll allow him or any neut to dictate the way of the game if they vote with us, lol.

i think i touched upon everyone
did i miss someone?

in case I'm not clear

Mike => #1 scum read. when we're done our skipping phase, lynch him. sheriff, check him

Frinckles/MM => at least one of these two is scum. leaning toward frinckles if Mike is actually scum

MM => can see more as a neut than mafia

MZ => neut, if not, town.
Helz=> neut, if not, town.

Frostbye=> eh, probably just town given I feel pretty confident in my leans on other people
Oberon=> will sort himself, but if he's scum i have no damn fucking clue.

So I guess at this point, I really truly only think Frostbyte would be town, cause i don't see anything scummy or out of the ordinary

so final list would really be

Town:
Me
DM
Oberon
Frostbyte
MZ
Helz

MM

Frinckles
Mike

So to be clear you read me as town but least likely to be town out of your town reads?

[Mesk514]

So to be clear you read me as town but least likely to be town out of your town reads?

heh, I would say you and mattzed are equally in the same spot in my town list. but hey, I actually really like my list, let's just lynch bottom to top and call it GG hahaha

meskmvp

[Mesk514]

hell, even frostbyte could be lower than you two in the list but I don't see him fitting in anywhere in my scum theory

[Helz]

heh, I would say you and mattzed are equally in the same spot in my town list. but hey, I actually really like my list, let's just lynch bottom to top and call it GG hahaha

meskmvp

Why do you put Frostbyte as more likely to be town than me or MZ as on par with me given my game break strategy?

[Mesk514]

just by POE from my theory, frostbyte pretty much gets a town slot from me

[Mesk514]

Why do you put Frostbyte as more likely to be town than me or MZ as on par with me given my game break strategy?

hell, even frostbyte could be lower than you two in the list but I don't see him fitting in anywhere in my scum theory

just by POE from my theory, frostbyte pretty much gets a town slot from me

^^

[Helz]

I mean, I get what your saying. But you do recognize I just mechanically broke a ladder game right?

One thing I have gotten better at over the years is recognizing how others will read me and with my play this game I kinda expect to be a hair under as confirmed town as Obe is. There is very few things I wouldn't do but outlining a way for town to perma skip while defining probable sheriff and outlining how TPR1 can confirm a town block and relay information is a bit much. I am curious as to how I could do this but you read me as 'on par' with Matt in your read.