staff should be anonymous in sfm
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  1. #1

    staff should be anonymous in sfm

    ladder or not. doesnt matter. not necessary for every player to be on a smurf. only the players with flashy names and badges that can subconsciously effect the way other players perceive them

    nobody should know who they are, either. not even other mods

    say you're an fm admin. say you're in a game. say you disagree with something or feel its a staff issue.
    ok, so make an answerhall thread with your evidence and dont mention who you are.

    i feel like something like this doesnt need to be explained in a thread? either way, site is dying. site been dying. 6 yrs ago thered be 30ppl on at any given time shit posting. now most days site is dead by 9pm. sad.

  2. #2

  3. #3

  4. #4

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostByte View Post
    Mushroom Kingdom 2. I made a post about it in adminhall and got a bunch of non-answers and walking around the subject without actually addressing it. I was gonna be a cunt to people who didn't deserve it so I left it be at that point.

    If he's done it before he was staff it would have just been steering the daychat as a player does normally. It would even have been fine if he'd told Bruno to knock it off with the bullshit without emoting about his hat but there's no way he didn't at least affect some type of perception in game because of his staff status.

    That whole game we had a talk about avatars and a ton of people agreed that changing just your avatar alters perception, I got Ceko lunched partially because of him changing his avatar. I absofuckinglutely guarantee playing with the red name alters perception, too.

    Whether it's advantageous or not is debatable but playing with staff colors is altering perception in a way which is unavailable to most people and it's inherently unbalanced. Continuing to do so after they've been made aware of it is choosing to swing admin dick around in games knowing that it affects the outcome.
    Just gonna quote my post from before. @Voss what is your opinion on the red words?
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    I will go ahead and fuck this cat
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    yeah I'm not gonna sit around here analyzing the fucking particle fluctuations in the quantum foam or whatever the fuck trying to find shit on D1

  5. #5

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    id be open to anonymous games being the standard for FM
    Back in the day that was the major player facing difference between full FMs and S-FMs. Full FMs with anonymous accounts were fucking dope.
    FMX: fm Kevinpowers - Citizen (WIN)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I will go ahead and fuck this cat
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Heavy Handed View Post
    yeah I'm not gonna sit around here analyzing the fucking particle fluctuations in the quantum foam or whatever the fuck trying to find shit on D1

  6. #6

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostByte View Post
    Back in the day that was the major player facing difference between full FMs and S-FMs. Full FMs with anonymous accounts were fucking dope.
    Yeah, I was in FM XXIV(?). Absolutely wild. It was one of the last ones, I think. At one point we had plans to host another but that fell through because of both community size issues and commitment issues.
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    How dare you send me another box of cereal
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    congrats you're an inspiration to pedophiles everywhere
    Hopefully you'll get banned and hit by a truck.

  7. #7

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    id be open to anonymous games being the standard for FM
    same
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Yeah I donít read or care to that much. I just vote correctly and thatís that.

  8. #8

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    I donít think what you want is really possible here cuz

    1. It basically implies everyone in all games should be anonymous because being a staff member is just one of many factors that can affect perception in games. Whether the person is your friend or enemy, whether theyíre a noob or not, meta reads you might have, whether theyíre generally considered good or bad at the game, blah blah it all gets factored in.

    2. A lot of people on this site couldnít be anon anyways. Like even if you gave them a new account people would still figure out it was them just from their unique quirks, way of talking etc. I mean especially the staff as theyíre some of the most active and well-known

    3. Thatís kind of what this site is about to some extent. Like how itís unique from other bigger mafia sites. Is that itís sort of a family where most people know each other well. I mean other then that, why do people keep coming back here to play FM when there are bigger sites

    Itís kind of interesting because youíre saying essentially to regulate more to retain players and Mag was advocating the opposite saying less would retain more players. I feel like the FM staff just try their best to find a happy medium and donít always succeed. But thatís part of the charm of this site because when anyone messes up people feel free to shit all over them, which you couldnít get away with on any of the more established sites.


    I mean if you want to mandate all anon games I guess sure? But like I think people like being ďknownĒ on here and itís part of why they keep coming back. And in anon games people will just com hunt or theyíll intentionally reveal themselves if they know it benefits them from a meta perspective. I just canít see an ideal solution outside of having a player base so large that youíd almost never be able to recognize anybody else in the game
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  9. #9

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    I'm not against staff flipping their colour off when playing FM, but where is the line drawn? Is it FM staff/admins or everyone with coloured names? New people wont know the difference for awhile since it isn't glaringly obvious what colour represents what.

    I also haven't heard of this being an issue in for the ~4 years I have been active here, so I would be cautious to enact a reactionary policy based off one outlier game.

  10. #10

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by rumox View Post
    I'm not against staff flipping their colour off when playing FM, but where is the line drawn? Is it FM staff/admins or everyone with coloured names? New people wont know the difference for awhile since it isn't glaringly obvious what colour represents what.

    I also haven't heard of this being an issue in for the ~4 years I have been active here, so I would be cautious to enact a reactionary policy based off one outlier game.
    Yea I mean thereís no point flipping the colors off if all the active players will still know exactly who it is, it just randomly puts the new/unfamiliar players at a disadvantage
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  11. #11

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    I think the the argument on moderation is more nuanced that, aamirus, but I agree with all the other points you've made and well put.

    On a more technical note, I believe it's a lot of overhead to build and maintain this infrastructure to support this. Staff members will have to keep recycling their smurf account anytime there's a suspicion that their real persona has been found out. So that's pressure on the fm staff to keep doing this, or on the staff member themselves. I'd guess that this would stop some staff members from even bothering to play, would it not?

    If it were technically easy to generate anonymous accounts and switch back and forth between them, (like it is on MU???), I'd love for all anonymous games. Just not worth the overhead.

    Personally, (and I've said this before) I think the healthier strategy is for the veteran non staff to lead by example and give the ranked folk a good fight. So if you, Bruno, are playing with aamirus and some new member, you don't let aamirus walk over the new member. However, there's an underlying nuance here I think that begs the following question before we get to solutioning.

    What is the root problem? Is it that there are staff that abuse their ranks to their advantage in forum mafia on purpose? Or that staff get some inherent advantage just by having a color and/or rank?

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  12. #12

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    On a more technical note, I believe it's a lot of overhead to build and maintain this infrastructure to support this. Staff members will have to keep recycling their smurf account anytime there's a suspicion that their real persona has been found out. So that's pressure on the fm staff to keep doing this, or on the staff member themselves. I'd guess that this would stop some staff members from even bothering to play, would it not?[/COLOR][/B]
    To give a silly example. Say MM hosted some sfm game and got DR to play. Do you think DR would be less likely to play if they had to get on a smurf account? Do you think that game would fill up faster knowing DR would play? Silly example, but that can be extrapolated to most of the people that play on this site, no? I know a lot of the oldies will play when other oldies play, but couldn't give a fuck when a new player signs. (No offense, but I think this is true).

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  13. #13

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostByte View Post
    Just gonna quote my post from before. @Voss what is your opinion on the red words?
    I think you saying that it's unbalanced implies that there's advantage to playing with staff colors. So whether or not it's unbalanced is also up for debate. If there is an advantage, I think it is or can be made minuscule and is treated by the newer member playing with the colored staff member more often.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  14. #14

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    The only argument for this as I see it is staff using their red name to get others to act in a certain way (with the threat of infraction). This is mostly limited in my experience to getting people to play nice. Iíve never seen this being abused maliciously AFAIK, though. In theory I fully agree with this restriction but in practice it rarely causes issues as far as I can tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huey The Long View Post
    Naz will die, i can promise you this, i visited there home, i shared the wealth, placed my book on their nightstand and said every man a king 3 times so they will die from my glorious contagion of my political program
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    You sure you dont want to lynch Voss again? he may flip scum this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    mags my highest townread and i think hes scum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Yeah I donít read or care to that much. I just vote correctly and thatís that.

  15. #15

  16. #16

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    I think the root problem is that for example aamirus saying someone gamethrows as part of her scumgame has much more impact and might get people to actually take it serious when her name is red, than it would if she was on the white smurf acc bbmirus. Being known or not isn't the problem here, just that use of the account with colour also implies that the powers are there and the action can be taken at any time. When it's a (not anonymous) smurf acc it kinda tells you mod status is now off, and the only people doing something are the other mods outside the game

  17. #17

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    I feel like Anon games totally have the advantage of a lack of 'this player is good' thing but thats why anon games exist to begin with to mitigate Meta.

    The only issue I took with FM/Staff shit was when I figured out I could see invisible players. The major issues I have seen on other sites related to staff cheating.

    Obligating anon is kinda silly and would just make this site more radical than it already is in the global community. Conflicts of interest controls can easily be managed through the existing staff structure as I understand it.
    What does not kill you makes you feel stupid when you wish it would have
    It only makes you stronger if you choose to not be a victim

  18. #18

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I donít think what you want is really possible here cuz

    1. It basically implies everyone in all games should be anonymous because being a staff member is just one of many factors that can affect perception in games. Whether the person is your friend or enemy, whether theyíre a noob or not, meta reads you might have, whether theyíre generally considered good or bad at the game, blah blah it all gets factored in.
    Meta means nothing. Check Mushroom Kingdom. Never played with any of those bitches and I knew 2/3 of scum by EoD 1. Got godfather lynched. They're all whining about meta and never once steered town in an accurate lynch cuz they were dumb af.
    2. A lot of people on this site couldnít be anon anyways. Like even if you gave them a new account people would still figure out it was them just from their unique quirks, way of talking etc. I mean especially the staff as theyíre some of the most active and well-known
    That's fine. Having a suspicion of who someone is is better than flagrantly having red-tag name steering daychat and pocketing ppl cuz admin

    3. Thatís kind of what this site is about to some extent. Like how itís unique from other bigger mafia sites. Is that itís sort of a family where most people know each other well. I mean other then that, why do people keep coming back here to play FM when there are bigger sites
    People don't come back here. This site is dying. Know why? Cuz you used to actually be able to joke and call eachother niggers and roast, and now slowly but surely the site is being pussified. I think it's quite clear this site is dying. Crazy how it's existed as COM sicne 2008, and then became Mafia in 2012, and only recently has begun facing real player # challenges. Used to be monthly 30 player FMs. Now it can take weeks to fill a 12 player game. STRONGLY disagree on your theory of what makes this site popular.

    Itís kind of interesting because youíre saying essentially to regulate more to retain players and Mag was advocating the opposite saying less would retain more players. I feel like the FM staff just try their best to find a happy medium and donít always succeed. But thatís part of the charm of this site because when anyone messes up people feel free to shit all over them, which you couldnít get away with on any of the more established sites.
    Gonna disagree again, read my above reply.


    I mean if you want to mandate all anon games I guess sure? But like I think people like being ďknownĒ on here and itís part of why they keep coming back. And in anon games people will just com hunt or theyíll intentionally reveal themselves if they know it benefits them from a meta perspective. I just canít see an ideal solution outside of having a player base so large that youíd almost never be able to recognize anybody else in the game
    That's why not every player would be expected to be anon. I'm not talking about making an alt for solely playing SFM. I'm talking about a smurf. Make an account. post on it like once every so often, play games, and go through channels players go through to report grievances. Seems pretty easy. If it's an ADMIN who "intentionally reveals themselves for meta", then that speaks to the effect of the red name pocketing players and steering day chat, doesn't it?

  19. #19

  20. #20

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    The only argument for this as I see it is staff using their red name to get others to act in a certain way (with the threat of infraction). This is mostly limited in my experience to getting people to play nice. Iíve never seen this being abused maliciously AFAIK, though. In theory I fully agree with this restriction but in practice it rarely causes issues as far as I can tell.
    ok but we literally discussed in Mushroom Kingdom the subconscious aspect avatars play in scumreads, scumpaints, etc. so you're talking out of your dirty asshole to imply a colored name also doesn't subconsciously impact most players. especially an admin tag

  21. #21

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    I think you saying that it's unbalanced implies that there's advantage to playing with staff colors. So whether or not it's unbalanced is also up for debate. If there is an advantage, I think it is or can be made minuscule and is treated by the newer member playing with the colored staff member more often.
    there is an advantage. again, read my response to oberon.

  22. #22

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    I think the the argument on moderation is more nuanced that, aamirus, but I agree with all the other points you've made and well put.

    On a more technical note, I believe it's a lot of overhead to build and maintain this infrastructure to support this. Staff members will have to keep recycling their smurf account anytime there's a suspicion that their real persona has been found out. So that's pressure on the fm staff to keep doing this, or on the staff member themselves. I'd guess that this would stop some staff members from even bothering to play, would it not?

    If it were technically easy to generate anonymous accounts and switch back and forth between them, (like it is on MU???), I'd love for all anonymous games. Just not worth the overhead.

    Personally, (and I've said this before) I think the healthier strategy is for the veteran non staff to lead by example and give the ranked folk a good fight. So if you, Bruno, are playing with aamirus and some new member, you don't let aamirus walk over the new member. However, there's an underlying nuance here I think that begs the following question before we get to solutioning.

    What is the root problem? Is it that there are staff that abuse their ranks to their advantage in forum mafia on purpose? Or that staff get some inherent advantage just by having a color and/or rank?
    i dont give a fuck if staff play or not. that's the sacrifice, no? when you decide you no longer want to be a PLAYER, but instead an ADMIN or MODERATOR, there's sacrifices involved. again, i think that would be obvious. staff can make smurfs. let them make multiples if they're paranoid and fragile enough to think they've been exposed. literally does not matter.

    yes, staff receives inherent bonus by colored name. that should be well established by now

  23. #23

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    To give a silly example. Say MM hosted some sfm game and got DR to play. Do you think DR would be less likely to play if they had to get on a smurf account? Do you think that game would fill up faster knowing DR would play? Silly example, but that can be extrapolated to most of the people that play on this site, no? I know a lot of the oldies will play when other oldies play, but couldn't give a fuck when a new player signs. (No offense, but I think this is true).
    5 minutes to make a new account? no, i don't think that'd deter most ppl who intend to play and not lurk anyway. dr would never play again, and this is a strawman red herring. so... bruh really?

  24. #24

  25. #25

  26. #26

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    I never found it to be a big deal what colour names ppl have. I've always been far more intimidated by players who have a reputation of "being good". You learn who those players are very quickly even if you're new because everyone is kissing their ass lol.

    If I ever really felt like someone was trying to flex their admin powers over me... I dunno. I'd probably be pissed rather than intimidated and make a thread about how the admins are corrupt and the site is going to hell like this one lol. The power of the admins is conditional. If they're pricks they'll just get roasted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
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  27. #27

    ignored Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I feel like Anon games totally have the advantage of a lack of 'this player is good' thing but thats why anon games exist to begin with to mitigate Meta.

    The only issue I took with FM/Staff shit was when I figured out I could see invisible players. The major issues I have seen on other sites related to staff cheating.

    Obligating anon is kinda silly and would just make this site more radical than it already is in the global community. Conflicts of interest controls can easily be managed through the existing staff structure as I understand it.
    ^^^^^^

    And we removed the permission of staff (even admins) being able to see invisible mode, since it was giving an unfair advantage to mods.

    Staff can't take advantage of their position to benefit anyone in games. Should they do that, you report them with evidence and they get slapped hard, because it's a serious breach of integrity. Now, what you're saying is that people knowing that someone is staff and could in theory threaten press a ban button on someone to get a game advantage (just before getting demoted and banned, of course) is something that scares people. Well, let me tell you something. If you ever are refraining from doing something solely because you're talking to staff but that it doesn't break the rules, YOU CAN DO IT! You are 100 % free to call staff scum and to get them lynched if you think they're scum, and 100 % free to create a shitstorm if you're banned for it lol because staff would be going against their own rules.

    Forcing staff to play on alts is silly because:
    - the person is still there, and if the person truly wanted to be a dirty staff member, it could just hop on its main
    - alts can be recognized (unless staff is forced to be unrecognizable, which would be terribly hard, especially after many games)
    - staff can get people into games because they signed, because they happen to be relatively old people with contacts
    - player meta is a thing, and staff is free to want player meta to exist for them in non-anon games

    As for anonymous games, sure! If people want anonymous games, they can just host their games with anonymous accounts. Same thing with "overmoderation", by the way: if you want to, you can go to the Approved Setups subforum, take a setup you like, and repost it in the Workshop with the rule "You may do whatever you want" (or with rules that are very unrestrictive). Staff (and yourself as a host) won't infract anyone because nothing will be forbidden! Just the illegal activities, doxxing, etc. parts will be, but people in your game will be free to insult eachother like crazy and even to OGC if you explicitely let them. The FM rules grant you that right.
    HOSTS, TAKE YOUR FREEDOM, YOU HAVE IT. ESTABLISH YOUR RULES IN YOUR SETUP PAGE.
    But then, you, who sign for games, have to respect those rules and not afterwards accuse either hosts or staff of enforcing them: you've agreed to abide to them.

    @Bruno @FrostByte @Oberon
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  28. #28

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I never found it to be a big deal what colour names ppl have. I've always been far more intimidated by players who have a reputation of "being good". You learn who those players are very quickly even if you're new because everyone is kissing their ass lol.

    If I ever really felt like someone was trying to flex their admin powers over me... I dunno. I'd probably be pissed rather than intimidated and make a thread about how the admins are corrupt and the site is going to hell like this one lol. The power of the admins is conditional. If they're pricks they'll just get roasted.
    Literally this.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  29. #29

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Literally this.
    That quote is entirely proving the point tho, isn't it? This thread here exists. So obviously that means you, or another admin, did give off the feeling of having flexed admin powers. Same thing with Mesk's thread too. She made it that way because she felt you acted in her game like an admin instead of a player.

    The solution of using an acc with white name on the other hand would highlight and show that your sign was made as a player, and you're participating as a player. Even if you're still the same person, using a different acc and as a result having to change accounts for admin actions would be a totally different situation that gives off a far more relaxing feel to other players. It's one more barrier the admin has to cross before getting the chance to act, which he's supposed to never use.

    Here, an example to illustrate the situation, without intent of any negative implications. Try imagining having a tame but deadly snake in front of you. The guy owning the snake says it's harmless, but there's still the chance it's gonna bite. Then imagine there's a glass door between you and the snake. Even knowing the snake could just get through the door if it wanted to, you'd be far more relaxed with the barrier than without, wouldn't you? I think that's roughly comparable here.

    The extra account would be that barrier, and by placing it you're showing everyone that you actually really mean it when you're saying that you're only participating as player instead of admin. Mesk fairly clearly said she didn't feel like you're just acting like a player, so I think showing it that way would be great.

    I'm not even trying to criticise the actions you took or are taking as admin. You should know by now that I'd just tell you on discord if I felt like that. I'm going by the responses that were displayed by several players so far here. These threads here show that just your simple words about acting and playing as player instead of admin don't mean enough. This is mafia after all, words mean shit here.

  30. #30

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    That quote is entirely proving the point tho, isn't it? This thread here exists. So obviously that means you, or another admin, did give off the feeling of having flexed admin powers. Same thing with Mesk's thread too. She made it that way because she felt you acted in her game like an admin instead of a player.

    The solution of using an acc with white name on the other hand would highlight and show that your sign was made as a player, and you're participating as a player. Even if you're still the same person, using a different acc and as a result having to change accounts for admin actions would be a totally different situation that gives off a far more relaxing feel to other players. It's one more barrier the admin has to cross before getting the chance to act, which he's supposed to never use.

    Here, an example to illustrate the situation, without intent of any negative implications. Try imagining having a tame but deadly snake in front of you. The guy owning the snake says it's harmless, but there's still the chance it's gonna bite. Then imagine there's a glass door between you and the snake. Even knowing the snake could just get through the door if it wanted to, you'd be far more relaxed with the barrier than without, wouldn't you? I think that's roughly comparable here.

    The extra account would be that barrier, and by placing it you're showing everyone that you actually really mean it when you're saying that you're only participating as player instead of admin. Mesk fairly clearly said she didn't feel like you're just acting like a player, so I think showing it that way would be great.

    I'm not even trying to criticise the actions you took or are taking as admin. You should know by now that I'd just tell you on discord if I felt like that. I'm going by the responses that were displayed by several players so far here. These threads here show that just your simple words about acting and playing as player instead of admin don't mean enough. This is mafia after all, words mean shit here.
    Putting something up that restricts staff members' freedom as players (the freedom of having a meta and the stress of having to conceal an identity) when they don't want to and that doesn't actually prevent anything is no "solution"; plus, it's not like abuse actually happened anywhere, unless telling someone, independently from a player identity, that telling someone to be a man and blow their brains out is against the rules is abuse, in which case abuse is literally everywhere.

    And if I thought the administration of a community were so deeply corrupt that righteous and legitimate reports would do nothing or would get me banned, well, I'd probably leave that community, because there would no trust in any form of fairness. This isn't the case here.

    Your snake illustration has two major flaws:
    - The snake and its owner are the same person in the real world. "Biting" would imply that staff has extraordinarily evil intent, it's not like it's something uncontrolled like a snake. If you really believe staff has evil intent, report. Plus...
    - ...are you going to tell me that an admin with evil intent, who wants to abuse his powers, won't change accounts, even though it takes 15 seconds to do? The very existence of moderation implies the latent risk of abuse, and it won't change just because you disguise moderators.


    And by the way, this kind of suggestion is, as far as I know, completely unprecedented in the worldwide FM community; it's not like we're some kind of archaic dictatorship. It's not like game integrity is at stake either. So really, I don't think there is a systemic problem. And even assuming there would be one, it would stop nothing. All it'd do is be unfair for staff.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  31. #31

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Putting something up that restricts staff members' freedom as players (the freedom of having a meta and the stress of having to conceal an identity) when they don't want to and that doesn't actually prevent anything is no "solution"; plus, it's not like abuse actually happened anywhere, unless telling someone, independently from a player identity, that telling someone to be a man and blow their brains out is against the rules is abuse, in which case abuse is literally everywhere.

    And if I thought the administration of a community were so deeply corrupt that righteous and legitimate reports would do nothing or would get me banned, well, I'd probably leave that community, because there would no trust in any form of fairness. This isn't the case here.

    Your snake illustration has two major flaws:
    - The snake and its owner are the same person in the real world. "Biting" would imply that staff has extraordinarily evil intent, it's not like it's something uncontrolled like a snake. If you really believe staff has evil intent, report. Plus...
    - ...are you going to tell me that an admin with evil intent, who wants to abuse his powers, won't change accounts, even though it takes 15 seconds to do? The very existence of moderation implies the latent risk of abuse, and it won't change just because you disguise moderators.


    And by the way, this kind of suggestion is, as far as I know, completely unprecedented in the worldwide FM community; it's not like we're some kind of archaic dictatorship. It's not like game integrity is at stake either. So really, I don't think there is a systemic problem. And even assuming there would be one, it would stop nothing. All it'd do is be unfair for staff.
    I'm not suggesting to change one's meta and actually try to stay anon as much as possible. I'm suggesting to use a white acc that obviously still belongs to you simply to further display that you're a player when signing and not an admin. It's not the perfect solution to every ploblem, but a step to simply come forward towards players. A compromise.

    In my illustration the snake would be owned by someone else. I by no means intend to say you'd be a snake, but I do wanna say that no matter how much you or someone else, maybe myself, says about how friendly and kind you are, someone who doesn't know may still end up thinking that you might bite, like that snake. I think threads like this are proof that the issue does exist.

    I can't say much about other sites. I'm not really involved in anything like this anywhere. It totally is possible that this would be the only site to implement that kinda system if it were to happen. But it's still a good move towards the playerbase, no? And for once this site would actually be pioneering in something that helps players, unlike with changes like the removal of lynch which happened after other sites did it.

  32. #32

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    I'm not suggesting to change one's meta and actually try to stay anon as much as possible. I'm suggesting to use a white acc that obviously still belongs to you simply to further display that you're a player when signing and not an admin. It's not the perfect solution to every ploblem, but a step to simply come forward towards players. A compromise.

    In my illustration the snake would be owned by someone else. I by no means intend to say you'd be a snake, but I do wanna say that no matter how much you or someone else, maybe myself, says about how friendly and kind you are, someone who doesn't know may still end up thinking that you might bite, like that snake. I think threads like this are proof that the issue does exist.

    I can't say much about other sites. I'm not really involved in anything like this anywhere. It totally is possible that this would be the only site to implement that kinda system if it were to happen. But it's still a good move towards the playerbase, no? And for once this site would actually be pioneering in something that helps players, unlike with changes like the removal of lynch which happened after other sites did it.
    I know you weren't calling me a snake, I'm not insulted XD. You're actually trying to answer an existing concern, and so am I, we're just taking different paths and that's respectable.

    I will be honest, I find it completely ridiculous and meaningless, and even somewhat deceitful towards the players lol. There's one thing that's concievable, though: that people don't like staff acting as staff in a game they're in, even if they make it clear they aren't talking as players. In an ideal world, it would never happen, but sometimes, game integrity seems too heavily threatened by rulebreaking. That's a big part of why I recently posted a "FM Staff is hiring!" thread, and why Deathworlds was hired: we needed someone to be able to do this when needed from an external perspective, and who is clearly not acting as a player with absolutely no ambiguity possible.

    So, if there's a good move towards the playerbase, it consists of staff deciding to avoid "putting the mod hat on" and to contact a staff member who's not involved in the game for an independent view and a warning in-game if the independent staff member deems it necessary...
    Which was already decided way before all of this (again, hence why Deathworlds was hired), and was actually prompted by @FrostByte 's feedback on the matter (it's not because I take a formal tone that I'm saying bullshit, sir, your civil and honest feedback truly was appreciated :P). It should now be pretty much always possible, because there'll always be someone available under a reasonable delay to check things out, so this shouldn't cause issues.


    And again, if I may just say, in-game enforcement is up to hosts. When you host, the rules you define give you a lot of power and a lot of responsibilities. In an ideal world, things wouldn't go out of hand because hosts would warn and replace if needed. Not blaming anyone, just stating a reality.


    I believe the staff policy I described above (about having a non-participating staff member check the situation independently instead of having things such as "mod hat on") should answer the concerns.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  33. #33

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    I know you weren't calling me a snake, I'm not insulted XD. You're actually trying to answer an existing concern, and so am I, we're just taking different paths and that's respectable.

    I will be honest, I find it completely ridiculous and meaningless, and even somewhat deceitful towards the players lol. There's one thing that's concievable, though: that people don't like staff acting as staff in a game they're in, even if they make it clear they aren't talking as players. In an ideal world, it would never happen, but sometimes, game integrity seems too heavily threatened by rulebreaking. That's a big part of why I recently posted a "FM Staff is hiring!" thread, and why Deathworlds was hired: we needed someone to be able to do this when needed from an external perspective, and who is clearly not acting as a player with absolutely no ambiguity possible.

    So, if there's a good move towards the playerbase, it consists of staff deciding to avoid "putting the mod hat on" and to contact a staff member who's not involved in the game for an independent view and a warning in-game if the independent staff member deems it necessary...
    Which was already decided way before all of this (again, hence why Deathworlds was hired), and was actually prompted by @FrostByte 's feedback on the matter (it's not because I take a formal tone that I'm saying bullshit, sir, your civil and honest feedback truly was appreciated :P). It should now be pretty much always possible, because there'll always be someone available under a reasonable delay to check things out, so this shouldn't cause issues.


    And again, if I may just say, in-game enforcement is up to hosts. When you host, the rules you define give you a lot of power and a lot of responsibilities. In an ideal world, things wouldn't go out of hand because hosts would warn and replace if needed. Not blaming anyone, just stating a reality.


    I believe the staff policy I described above (about having a non-participating staff member check the situation independently instead of having things such as "mod hat on") should answer the concerns.
    you didnt address any concerns about how people subconsciously react to scumpainting and challenging admin or other staff usergroups.

    again: if avatars can have a subconscious effect on how players will treat, perceive, or read a player, then how could you possibly argue having a colored name, like red, doesnt have a similar result?

  34. #34

  35. #35

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    To be fair, I do not even guess what the main problem is.
    Like, staff are humans, and so are every other players.
    What's the deal of being scared of anything ?

    Even if I had my nick in the basic color with a basic non-staff role, my playstyle towards staff would have been alike towards regular players.
    Whenever an admin, or staff in general decides to sign in a FM, they put themselves in the same position as all the other players.
    So they should be treated the same way.

    Having staff member on a game doesn't mean the game is biaised.
    It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving.
    As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules.
    So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin).
    You will realize, it won't change anything.

    The only point I could see, is when an admin is in a game, players tend to be more cautious not to break the rules (even though some really dgaf*).
    Which is practically a good thing, in my opinion.

    I would like to hear the in-depth reason of posting this thread to understand the reasoning behind it.

    Regarding anon games,
    I have never played anonymous game, and my given isn't really positive. I believe the game loses it's charm in some extent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Efekannn02 View Post
    MM Magoroth and Distorted are the 3 baddies
    just like Agrael Acriel and Auwt being the original 3 baddies
    Quote Originally Posted by Efekannn02 View Post
    MafiaZ and Skwirl its all a repeat of history
    Quote Originally Posted by Scvmurderer View Post
    I havnt seen a mafiaz member in a long time. I think they're dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Efekannn02 View Post
    Screw you I actually have more grudges towards the people who have their names start with A

  36. #36

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Auwt View Post
    It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving.
    As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules.
    So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin).
    You will realize, it won't change anything.
    That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them.

  37. #37

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    fyi, i wasn't part of the discussion where people changing avatars resulting in meta reads
    that's fine, you didn't really need to be part of the discussion to be informed of the general agreement that they do.

    thats why im saying it ;)

  38. #38

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Auwt View Post
    To be fair, I do not even guess what the main problem is.
    Like, staff are humans, and so are every other players.
    What's the deal of being scared of anything ?

    Even if I had my nick in the basic color with a basic non-staff role, my playstyle towards staff would have been alike towards regular players.
    Whenever an admin, or staff in general decides to sign in a FM, they put themselves in the same position as all the other players.
    So they should be treated the same way.

    Having staff member on a game doesn't mean the game is biaised.
    It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving.
    As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules.
    So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin).
    You will realize, it won't change anything.

    The only point I could see, is when an admin is in a game, players tend to be more cautious not to break the rules (even though some really dgaf*).
    Which is practically a good thing, in my opinion.

    I would like to hear the in-depth reason of posting this thread to understand the reasoning behind it.

    Regarding anon games,
    I have never played anonymous game, and my given isn't really positive. I believe the game loses it's charm in some extent.
    "ive never played an anon game, so here's my totally invalid and unrelated opinion"

    evidence a: if mm had been on a smurf account, then whatever perceived 'beef' existed between mm and mesk wouldn't have had any weight in the ruling that mesk "maliciously" forgot to vest mm. seems obvious enough

  39. #39

  40. #40

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    "ive never played an anon game, so here's my totally invalid and unrelated opinion"

    evidence a: if mm had been on a smurf account, then whatever perceived 'beef' existed between mm and mesk wouldn't have had any weight in the ruling that mesk "maliciously" forgot to vest mm. seems obvious enough
    Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid.
    The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread.
    I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction.
    Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this.

    MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo.
    It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone.

    I mean, imagine someone running a red light.
    Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same.
    And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Efekannn02 View Post
    MM Magoroth and Distorted are the 3 baddies
    just like Agrael Acriel and Auwt being the original 3 baddies
    Quote Originally Posted by Efekannn02 View Post
    MafiaZ and Skwirl its all a repeat of history
    Quote Originally Posted by Scvmurderer View Post
    I havnt seen a mafiaz member in a long time. I think they're dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Efekannn02 View Post
    Screw you I actually have more grudges towards the people who have their names start with A

  41. #41

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    On a serious note tho, Auwt's example is on point. An admin having a red or a white name is exactly the difference between the police driving in a police or a regular car. And the communication issue exists there too. You don't want to start shouting at someone for driving like a retard when they're in a police car. It's exactly this.

  42. #42

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Auwt View Post
    Good point.



    Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid.
    The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread.
    I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction.
    Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this.

    MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo.
    It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone.

    I mean, imagine someone running a red light.
    Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same.
    And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement.
    You are only looking at one specific outcome there. There are many other situations where the other party is the one putting you at risk for no visible reason. In such situations them being in a police car prevents you from pressing the horn and telling them your unbiased genuine opinion. It creates a barrier between the 2 parties that wouldn't be there if both had the same standing.

  43. #43

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Auwt View Post
    Good point.



    Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid.
    The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread.
    I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction.
    Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this.

    MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo.
    It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone.

    I mean, imagine someone running a red light.
    Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same.
    And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement.
    so if mm had been on an anonymous account

    and mesk didnt know mm was, say, alt named X

    mesk fucks up night action for X, resulting in X dying

    how in the fuck could it ever possibly be assumed mesk intentionally fucked over X because mesk happened to know X was mm? lmfao

    your analogies suck ass stop comparing yourself to police.

  44. #44

  45. #45

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    so if mm had been on an anonymous account

    and mesk didnt know mm was, say, alt named X

    mesk fucks up night action for X, resulting in X dying

    how in the fuck could it ever possibly be assumed mesk intentionally fucked over X because mesk happened to know X was mm? lmfao

    your analogies suck ass stop comparing yourself to police.
    I strongly disagree with the thought of alt accounts for staff members being in games and hosts NOT knowing who they are. This could lead to dishonesty in games where people sign up under multiple accounts. It's already kind of easy to do right now provided you use a VPN but promoting a practice where users consistently hide behind other accounts could cause serious problems down the road.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Unfunny View Post
    How dare you send me another box of cereal
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    congrats you're an inspiration to pedophiles everywhere
    Hopefully you'll get banned and hit by a truck.

  46. #46

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    I strongly disagree with the thought of alt accounts for staff members being in games and hosts NOT knowing who they are. This could lead to dishonesty in games where people sign up under multiple accounts. It's already kind of easy to do right now provided you use a VPN but promoting a practice where users consistently hide behind other accounts could cause serious problems down the road.
    if staff would abuse trust placed in them by signing w/ multiple accounts why the fuck are they staff lmfao

  47. #47

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them.
    Because our police kidnap and murder us regularly. Y'all get to step out when you get pulled over because police treat you like humans. We have to stay put, literally don't move, put our hands on our steering wheel, and meekly ask permission to grab necessary documents out of our glovebox otherwise we run the risk of getting shot. Literal gun to your head you'd feel the same way.
    FMX: fm Kevinpowers - Citizen (WIN)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I will go ahead and fuck this cat
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Heavy Handed View Post
    yeah I'm not gonna sit around here analyzing the fucking particle fluctuations in the quantum foam or whatever the fuck trying to find shit on D1

  48. #48

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    you didnt address any concerns about how people subconsciously react to scumpainting and challenging admin or other staff usergroups.

    again: if avatars can have a subconscious effect on how players will treat, perceive, or read a player, then how could you possibly argue having a colored name, like red, doesnt have a similar result?
    I'm gonna make it real big because people keep missing this, which is the entire point of the fucking thread:
    if avatars can have a subconscious effect on how players will treat, perceive, or read a player, then how could you possibly argue having a colored name, like red, doesnt have a similar result? @Voss @Marshmallow Marshall @Auwt @Oberon @yzb25 @aamirus @Kenny @rumox
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    "ive never played an anon game, so here's my totally invalid and unrelated opinion"

    evidence a: if mm had been on a smurf account, then whatever perceived 'beef' existed between mm and mesk wouldn't have had any weight in the ruling that mesk "maliciously" forgot to vest mm. seems obvious enough
    That whole situation would've played out differently. It still hasn't been addressed. That whole thread was colored names blindly sticking up for each other with very little logic being applied to the situation.
    FMX: fm Kevinpowers - Citizen (WIN)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I will go ahead and fuck this cat
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Heavy Handed View Post
    yeah I'm not gonna sit around here analyzing the fucking particle fluctuations in the quantum foam or whatever the fuck trying to find shit on D1

  49. #49

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostByte View Post
    Because our police kidnap and murder us regularly. Y'all get to step out when you get pulled over because police treat you like humans. We have to stay put, literally don't move, put our hands on our steering wheel, and meekly ask permission to grab necessary documents out of our glovebox otherwise we run the risk of getting shot. Literal gun to your head you'd feel the same way.
    Apparently not in france

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  50. #50

    Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm

    Once again, I wasn't part of the discussion where there was some ruling made about avatar so idk what you want from me with that tag.

    If the ask is to turn off colored ranks if you're in any FM game, then someone like MM might as well just be put into some shadow staff because they're in every game.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

 

 

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