S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party - Page 56
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  1. ISO #2751

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    How was your first game back btw?
    Intense. My first serious scumread ends up basically confirmed town. Almost maddening how little information there is to go off of, but high pressure because a single misyeet at this point could cost us the game.

    I might like a more chill game next time tbh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  2. ISO #2752

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Yeah, But I did not advocate for the mass claim. I advocated for you to claim Cit vs TPR because it cleared Matt after a mass claim already happened. And before that happened I voiced reasoning against doing a mass claim until D4 with the exception of cits claiming. So how do my actions point to me being scum? You keep making it out to be like I was pushing for mass claims when I have very specifically only pushed for you Tpr vs Cit claim with very good reasoning.

    I will also point out that although I townread Frost the fact they pushed Matt D3 makes no sense given he claimed TPR. This literally means they knew with 100% certainty that Matt was town but chose to just keep railing on him and now only grudgingly back off after the entire player base has acknowledged that Matt is lock town.
    He was getting on my fucking nerves so he caught flack. I wasn't making a great case against him so other people weren't gonna sheep it and if they did they would be scummy
    FMX: fm Kevinpowers - Citizen (WIN)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I will go ahead and fuck this cat
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Heavy Handed View Post
    yeah I'm not gonna sit around here analyzing the fucking particle fluctuations in the quantum foam or whatever the fuck trying to find shit on D1

  3. ISO #2753

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Unknown v Martian 1 Dragon Head
    Naz v Renegade 1 or 2 scum
    Naz, Frostbyte, Unknown, Martian, Renegade 3 scum

    Martian lynch solves Unknown at cost of likely town BD
    Unknown lynch solves Martian, Resolves Butler CC, and sheds light on Renegade v Naz while confirming Renegade v Naz by night acitons
    Naz lynch resolves Naz v Renegade although doesn't clear Renegade at cost of potential detective
    Renegade lynch resolves Naz v Renegade although doesn't clear Naz at cost of unlikely locksmith
    Frostbyte lynch resolves nothing but Frostbyte. (@Frinckles)

    I feel like Unknown should mechanically be the lynch because it is most likely from given information as well as it solves the majority of the game. No lynch is preferable to Martian lynch imo with Martian being easily verified by Detective peek if we are willing to trust Naz and Martian case being Tinfoil.

    I also think we should be more solid as a town before entering night on night actions with the amount of slots we can solve from coordinated night actions. If we don't want to go that route given that Wifom protection is lost thats cool but we should all be on the same page about it. Right now if we went into night the night actions would be whatever people felt like and we couldn't hold a player to an action because town coordination is so poor.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  4. ISO #2754

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    Intense. My first serious scumread ends up basically confirmed town. Almost maddening how little information there is to go off of, but high pressure because a single misyeet at this point could cost us the game.

    I might like a more chill game next time tbh.
    Bare (bear?) In mind we had the oberon play so we had to roll with what we got. But its been fun regardless. Wasn't around for when you played back in the day but welcome back.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  5. ISO #2755

  6. ISO #2756

  7. ISO #2757

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Please don’t hammer I’m readin my car at the phone store I want to read
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  8. ISO #2758

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Broken phone messages send bad
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  9. ISO #2759

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Yeah, But I did not advocate for the mass claim. I advocated for you to claim Cit vs TPR because it cleared Matt after a mass claim already happened. And before that happened I voiced reasoning against doing a mass claim until D4 with the exception of cits claiming. So how do my actions point to me being scum? You keep making it out to be like I was pushing for mass claims when I have very specifically only pushed for you Tpr vs Cit claim with very good reasoning.

    I will also point out that although I townread Frost the fact they pushed Matt D3 makes no sense given he claimed TPR. This literally means they knew with 100% certainty that Matt was town but chose to just keep railing on him and now only grudgingly back off after the entire player base has acknowledged that Matt is lock town.
    Quote Originally Posted by FrostByte View Post
    He was getting on my fucking nerves so he caught flack. I wasn't making a great case against him so other people weren't gonna sheep it and if they did they would be scummy
    Justin Case you missed the question
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  10. ISO #2760

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Unknown v Martian 1 Dragon Head
    Naz v Renegade 1 or 2 scum
    Naz, Frostbyte, Unknown, Martian, Renegade 3 scum

    Martian lynch solves Unknown at cost of likely town BD
    Unknown lynch solves Martian, Resolves Butler CC, and sheds light on Renegade v Naz while confirming Renegade v Naz by night acitons
    Naz lynch resolves Naz v Renegade although doesn't clear Renegade at cost of potential detective
    Renegade lynch resolves Naz v Renegade although doesn't clear Naz at cost of unlikely locksmith
    Frostbyte lynch resolves nothing but Frostbyte. (@Frinckles)

    I feel like Unknown should mechanically be the lynch because it is most likely from given information as well as it solves the majority of the game. No lynch is preferable to Martian lynch imo with Martian being easily verified by Detective peek if we are willing to trust Naz and Martian case being Tinfoil.

    I also think we should be more solid as a town before entering night on night actions with the amount of slots we can solve from coordinated night actions. If we don't want to go that route given that Wifom protection is lost thats cool but we should all be on the same page about it. Right now if we went into night the night actions would be whatever people felt like and we couldn't hold a player to an action because town coordination is so poor.
    I think you're scum protecting Martin at this point. I could excuse some of your play recently as you being drunk on the weekend, but at this point I can't buy it.

    How in the world are you calling Martin's case "tinfoil" when I, a confirmed town, have made it several times beyond mere speculation?

    -vote MartinGG99


    No yeet just hurts town. I think you're likely CA and want a no yeet to be able to get your night action off.

    Also your PoE is bad. It is totally possible for Naz and Renegade to both be town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  11. ISO #2761

  12. ISO #2762

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Helz you said you would reread me a while ago and I don’t believe you’ve ever really looked at my claim and given you want to lynch me it feels odd that’s something you wouldn’t do
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  13. ISO #2763

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    I think you're scum protecting Martin at this point. I could excuse some of your play recently as you being drunk on the weekend, but at this point I can't buy it.

    How in the world are you calling Martin's case "tinfoil" when I, a confirmed town, have made it several times beyond mere speculation?

    -vote MartinGG99


    No yeet just hurts town. I think you're likely CA and want a no yeet to be able to get your night action off.

    Also your PoE is bad. It is totally possible for Naz and Renegade to both be town.
    The only way to justify Martian is to leverage his read while ignoring all the rest of the information in this game. His case is tinfoil because it requires a seeded busdriver CC D1 to be the DH while ignoring the CC between me and Unknown and the case I presented on Unknown.

    Honestly if I didnt have you peeked I would scum read you for constantly pushing to kill the BD which is the greatest threat to the Triad winning through night actions while also being a claim thats verifiable through night actions. I feel that lynching Martin is a bad move.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  14. ISO #2764

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Okay I don’t really have much to add and sending posts will be kinda hard until I’m home
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  15. ISO #2765

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Renegade why do you still think Martin will flip town
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  16. ISO #2766

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    FrostByte you said I was throwing around reads earlier with no thought about it and now you’ve switched so I would like to know what made you rethink
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  17. ISO #2767

  18. ISO #2768

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    Helz you said you would reread me a while ago and I don’t believe you’ve ever really looked at my claim and given you want to lynch me it feels odd that’s something you wouldn’t do
    I spent hours reading you. It wasn't even just reading you I was reading you in context to Yzb and I stopped when I found what I presented at the end of yesterday. I did not post it because it felt like I was just grabbing stuff and pointing to how it could mean you are not town which I hate. When I noticed that you had a potential conformation of Martin being scum and didnt include it in his read I trashed it all and just built off that logic.

    I can only say thats why I didnt play to the end of D3. I was pretty pissy about spending that much time and coming to a conclusion I felt had you lock scum just to have that ripped out from under me in-spite of it not making sense within the OoO
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  19. ISO #2769

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    If I were TownHelz, I'd see 5 possible scum teams:

    Martin+Unknown+FrostByte (with FrostByte Triad Any)
    Martin+Unknown+Renegade (with Renegade Moulder)
    Martin+Unknown+Naz (with Naz Spy)
    Martin+FrostByte+Naz (with Martin DH, FrostByte CA, Naz Spy)
    Unknown+FrostByte+Naz (with Unknown DH, FrostByte CA, Naz Spy)

    For townHelz, most of the remaining setups have Martin AND Unknown as scum. Giving an extra night, ESPECIALLY IF NAZ CHECKS NOT THE CA, gives us much more room for error.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  20. ISO #2770

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    @Frinckles , I trust you to hammer when you think you've seen enough. I'm pretty confident of Helz+Martin as a scumteam at this point, but I'm especially confident on Martin.

    -vote MartinGG99

    @naz , if Martin flips DH, we're hoping you can find the CA tonight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  21. ISO #2771

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    If I were TownHelz, I'd see 5 possible scum teams:

    Martin+Unknown+FrostByte (with FrostByte Triad Any)
    Martin+Unknown+Renegade (with Renegade Moulder)
    Martin+Unknown+Naz (with Naz Spy)
    Martin+FrostByte+Naz (with Martin DH, FrostByte CA, Naz Spy)
    Unknown+FrostByte+Naz (with Unknown DH, FrostByte CA, Naz Spy)

    For townHelz, most of the remaining setups have Martin AND Unknown as scum. Giving an extra night, ESPECIALLY IF NAZ CHECKS NOT THE CA, gives us much more room for error.
    By "much more room for error" I mean "it's a lot more likely we mess this up."
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  22. ISO #2772

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Helz who do you think is triad with me because Matt makes a good point
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  23. ISO #2773

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    If I were TownHelz, I'd see 5 possible scum teams:

    Martin+Unknown+FrostByte (with FrostByte Triad Any)
    Martin+Unknown+Renegade (with Renegade Moulder)
    Martin+Unknown+Naz (with Naz Spy)
    Martin+FrostByte+Naz (with Martin DH, FrostByte CA, Naz Spy)
    Unknown+FrostByte+Naz (with Unknown DH, FrostByte CA, Naz Spy)

    For townHelz, most of the remaining setups have Martin AND Unknown as scum. Giving an extra night, ESPECIALLY IF NAZ CHECKS NOT THE CA, gives us much more room for error.
    You are ignoring that I am a Butler and Unknown claims Butler in a world where thats very doubtful while Martins CC is doubtful for a scum DH play. The claims very heavily point to Unknown Imo
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  24. ISO #2774

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    You are ignoring that I am a Butler and Unknown claims Butler in a world where thats very doubtful while Martins CC is doubtful for a scum DH play. The claims very heavily point to Unknown Imo
    Unknown's crumb by voting yzb in his first post is much more valid than any "seeding" I see in Martin. CC'ing a BD who looks vulnerable makes a lot of sense: If Martin DIDN'T CC, we'd have a a CONFIRMED TPR. Waaaay too much towncred has been given to his CC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  25. ISO #2775

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    Helz who do you think is triad with me because Matt makes a good point
    You, Renegade, Frostbyte

    Im not sure why that option is excluded in Matts options list.

    Renegade I built a case on, Frostbyte had some very fucked off pushes on Matt even when Frostbyte had the knowledge that Matt was 100% town and you because I doubt 2 butters is a thing while also believing Martins claim over yours.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  26. ISO #2776

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    I need to drive so I won’t be around for a bit
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    1-I really and truly believe @Unknown1234 is town. He stuck by me when I needed him
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    Wow, this game was really easy. I just had to talk dumb shit to survive some days more. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If sheriff cleared you honestly I would take him out of my town core and put him as scum.

  27. ISO #2777

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    Unknown's crumb by voting yzb in his first post is much more valid than any "seeding" I see in Martin. CC'ing a BD who looks vulnerable makes a lot of sense: If Martin DIDN'T CC, we'd have a a CONFIRMED TPR. Waaaay too much towncred has been given to his CC.
    A vote means nothing though. Thats not even a crumb.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  28. ISO #2778

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    I need to drive so I won’t be around for a bit
    I would encourage the town not to cut the day short. Let these interactions happen.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  29. ISO #2779

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    You, Renegade, Frostbyte

    Im not sure why that option is excluded in Matts options list.

    Renegade I built a case on, Frostbyte had some very fucked off pushes on Matt even when Frostbyte had the knowledge that Matt was 100% town and you because I doubt 2 butters is a thing while also believing Martins claim over yours.
    Who's the CA in that team? Can't be Unknown, because no one else can be DH. Can't be Renegade, because we have someone doing locks, and it can't be FB because he visited one person
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  30. ISO #2780

  31. ISO #2781

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    Who's the CA in that team? Can't be Unknown, because no one else can be DH. Can't be Renegade, because we have someone doing locks, and it can't be FB because he visited one person
    Thats actually a fair point. I have to think about this.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  32. ISO #2782

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Thats actually a fair point. I have to think about this.
    YOU'VE BEEN SUGGESTING WE YEET UNKNOWN BY POE BUT YOU'VE HARDLY THOUGHT OUT POE!!!

    I'M YOUR CONFIRMED TOWN AND I TOLD YOU WHAT THE POSSIBILITIES ARE AND YOU JUST IGNORE IT.

    WHAT IS GOING ON, HELZ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  33. ISO #2783

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Thats actually a fair point. I have to think about this.
    Yeah, My list is absolutely not possible. I have to be wrong.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  34. ISO #2784

  35. ISO #2785

  36. ISO #2786

  37. ISO #2787

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    YOU'VE BEEN SUGGESTING WE YEET UNKNOWN BY POE BUT YOU'VE HARDLY THOUGHT OUT POE!!!

    I'M YOUR CONFIRMED TOWN AND I TOLD YOU WHAT THE POSSIBILITIES ARE AND YOU JUST IGNORE IT.

    WHAT IS GOING ON, HELZ?
    I fucked off for 2 days. Is what it is.

    Like I said earlier I kinda function off challenge and when I dont feel challenged I kinda stop giving a shit.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  38. ISO #2788

  39. ISO #2789

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    im gonna do the thing in 2 minutes
    Why not wait for Unknown to post first? Whats the rush?
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  40. ISO #2790

  41. ISO #2791

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    Why not wait for Unknown to post first? Whats the rush?
    -unvote
    For what its worth. I have to be wrong.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  42. ISO #2792

  43. ISO #2793

  44. ISO #2794

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    @Helz , if you're town:

    SHEEP ME. SHEEP ME NOW.

    We are not going to get anything out of Unknown in time that is changing today's result. If you've given up, then GIVE UP AND FOLLOW THE CONFIRMED TOWN.
    I will hammer but give Unknown time to talk.
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  45. ISO #2795

  46. ISO #2796

  47. ISO #2797

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I will hammer but give Unknown time to talk.
    Unknown has the most posts in the game, I and TOWNREAD him from them.

    You're not going to get a chance to wait. Frinckles is hammering if you don't.

    Hammer now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  48. ISO #2798

  49. ISO #2799

    Re: S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

    On the most basic level the Unknown vs Martin is mechanically 1v1. Every other 1v1 is subjective. I do not see how my reads can function without a Martian DH after what Matt pointed out so that is what it is.

    But there is still no rush to end the day. I will also note that Martian v Unknown can easily be WvW
    Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
    If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.

  50. ISO #2800

 

 

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