S-FM 316 : The Fooling Party

[Unknown1234]

I'm honestly not that confident in anyone's ability to mechanically solve this crazy ass setup on d3. There are too many variables and I'm too confident in scum's ability to argue a bullshit claim. If I was TPR or cit I'd be doing the same thing I'm doing. Mass claims are dumb. With so many scum and so many TPR claims and all the night action switching fuckery we can't mechanically verify hardly anyone.

I'm town. I'm not claiming cit or TPR on d3 because we need to leave a little WIFOM ambiguity to night actions imo. I might be convinced otherwise but with as pushy and impatient as MattZed and Hels have been I think I'm doing the right thing. I asked both of them why it's important for me to claim specifically today and I didn't get an answer. I don't think there's a logical reason for doing today, and I know there's a logical reason for not doing it today.

Again, you're not gonna be able to mechanically solve it today. Too many potentially bullshit scum claims and too many potentially skilled bullshitters.

I think this is a fair point because we aren't planning on lynching anyone other than DM and there really wouldn't be much point to forcing you to reveal your role sooner. I think I probably would have disagreed with this logic a while ago but I see where you're coming from now.

[Unknown1234]

Actually I don’t mind being thrown up on lynch, because if the CA targeted me last night then there is a chance a real Traid dies.

You're obviously not town given that you haven't provided anything useful aside from saying that you're town everyday. Feel free to keep showing up though.

[Frinckles]

Is the day not over? Or does it end in 5 min

[Unknown1234]

Is the day not over? Or does it end in 5 min

We have like a full day left.

[Frinckles]

We have like a full day left.

Oh shit lol

[Unknown1234]

I don't feel like getting into another word fight with Helz about who is the townier player because none of his posts up until the end of day 2 had even slightly pinged me the wrong way. I think my intentions have been very clear this game and I think me being butler is obvious to anyone who actually tries to look for it.

I'm going to spend more time into Naz and Renegade ignoring the PoE.

[naz]

I don't feel like getting into another word fight with Helz about who is the townier player because none of his posts up until the end of day 2 had even slightly pinged me the wrong way. I think my intentions have been very clear this game and I think me being butler is obvious to anyone who actually tries to look for it.

I'm going to spend more time into Naz and Renegade ignoring the PoE.

ur mom ignored the poe

[Unknown1234]

ur mom ignored the poe

-130

[naz]

-130

IMG-20191001-WA0006.jpg

[MattZed]

Ughhh 2k post game and I said I'd do ISOs. Why do I make these decisions. Starting with Helz, I suppose.

[Helz]

Ughhh 2k post game and I said I'd do ISOs. Why do I make these decisions. Starting with Helz, I suppose.

All I can say is good luck.

There is a reason I am twiddling my thumbs and resting my brain after the last 3.

[MattZed]

All I can say is good luck.

There is a reason I am twiddling my thumbs and resting my brain after the last 3.

I am on page 4 and you don't make a lot of posts I can write off as fluff...

[Helz]

I am on page 4 and you don't make a lot of posts I can write off as fluff...

It wont be unbearable this game. Earlier this year I played a game where I had something obnoxious like 60k words just in my notes with nothing copied from the game. This game I have hardly even been taking notes so I probably dont have stupid amounts of text walls for you to trudge through. That and the only deep reads I have done are the 3 I posted today.

But yeah, Trust me when I say I feel your pain. It doesn't help this websites Iso format is not very kind for those that dont like to do in-context iso.

[Renegade]

All I can say is good luck.

There is a reason I am twiddling my thumbs and resting my brain after the last 3.

Your iso's are valuable though thank you for your service.

[Unknown1234]

Ughhh 2k post game and I said I'd do ISOs. Why do I make these decisions. Starting with Helz, I suppose.

I should probably post less in future games lol.... There are a lot of posts that I definitely don't need to make or can cram it into a smaller amount

[Unknown1234]

I am going to break naz's posts into groups to focus on specific thoughts that make me think she could be triad.

If naz is triad Spy, then we can assume two things based on her night actions:
1.) If she saw Dark Magician visiting deathworlds, she would also know that Frinckles visited DM in that same night.
2.) If she saw bakermir visit nobody, then she also would have seen who killed bakermir.

To focus on point #1 for now because I already touched a little bit on possible interactions based on her n2 action, I will look at her posts made near the start of day 2.

laughing my ass off at the fact that there's still over 3 hours left on the day 1 countdown

i meant to do this before i went to bed

-vote dark magician

do u think i'm sheeping matt? bc fuck that guy rn lol

but i will get my reasoning in a sec, let me get DM's ISO open

also i still want an answer to this because i refuse to believe frinckles is this dumb
he's likely scum (yesterday anyway - if he was switcher he might not be switcher today)

Spoiler : iso :

this was the first scum-smelly post DM made that i caught yesterday:


the rest were mostly made around mag's claim and the eod hammer

like trying to defend the switcher?


actually - now that i reread his iso, he might've been switcher yesterday



how is that the real question? lol





these don't come from a town perspective

& then he was desperate for dw to hammer early

anyway - these are my reasons for voting him. i would've loved to vote him yesterday had i been able to actually fucking post

There are two other posts I want to add to this discussion but I am separating them from these ones because all 4 of these posts were made before Frinckles had claimed his lead. The other two posts are as followed:

switcher doesn't have to change roles, they can act as bus driver *coughMartincough*

dark magician visited deathworlds last night

Thoughts that I find make her likely to be Spy in my eyes:

-All of her comments are Switcher hunting, not triad hunting. In her ISO on DM she mentions twice that he could be switcher because of how he defends the role and because of a comment DM makes me to me about softing Switcher. The remaining comments mention how his posts don't come from a town perspective, but imply she may think that he's switcher because of wanting to end the day early (Not 100% but I made this connection about deathworlds as well at the start of day 2).
-Right before her ISO on why DM could be switcher, she comments that she suspects that Frinckles might be switcher (again only focused on switcher and not triad hunting). She also suggests that Frinckles could have been switcher YESTERDAY, which could be another thought connecting to her believing that DM is the new switcher and that Frinckles was originally switcher. (I have more to add to this thought in following points).
-She speculates on Martin's role, suggesting that he could be switcher and saying he could have used the switcher's other night ability instead of swapping roles (Third time she focuses on switcher hunting people).
-I believe it was FrostByte that mentioned this earlier, but naz does not even attempt to vote DW despite thinking that DM was switcher. She even mentions her frustration in deathworlds hammering, but this thought doesn't continue past that so I can't consider this a scum-read.
-The interesting point to make for me is that she speculates on Martin using a different switcher night action then Frinckles. I feel this could connect her to believing that Frinckles switched into DM, but this is a weak connection because her comment on Martin could just be since he claimed Bus Driver (IMO it's still worth mentioning).

Overall thoughts on why I think could very well connect to naz being Spy:

I think the main thing worth noting is that she only seems to hunt for the switcher role. Her first triad read only ends up popping up after the switcher is confirmed dead (Day 3).

She makes several comments as to why Martin and Frinckles (the claimed TPR roles at this time) could be lying about their role. In the posts I quoted she throws comments at both of them in a way that looks to me more like discrediting them being seen as confirmed TPR roles.

I saved these posts for the end because I didn't want them to be mixed in with my other notes. While she does claim once that Martin may not actually be Bus Driver, she makes several comments that could suggest to her thinking Frinckles was switcher and due to her seeing him visit DM.

idk if dm was ever switcher
i don't know anything, my dude
possibilities r endless

if dm was the original switcher, what in the world is stopping him from telling us all he switched with dw?
even if dw's orginal role was triad, he could just LIE and say he's literally anything else.
but he isn't doing it
which makes me think, if ur role is real, dm is the switcher NOW (?)

This post may be less worth mentioning because she comments asking him if his role is real. The reason I mention it is because it's in response to Frinckles that she mentions that DM may not have been the original switcher. The tone in this message almost feels like she's accusing Frinckles of switching into DM, but I will leave this post open for you guys to interpret. This is only how I see it.

Detective and I'm sad now bc I didnt know triad had a same role as me qq


I actually brought this up already lul post 1123


idk why i have to believe u are a scientist

My last comment that I'd like to make is how she claims to read DM as a potential switcher on day 1, and says she would have voted him if given the chance. Her messages following this ISO basically imply the opposite of what she said, and spends most of the time arguing that DM may not have been the original switcher. She suggests several times that Frinckles' is lying about his claim, which really makes me believe she knew he visited DM. I know that reading too much into slotting a player with a role can cause problems, but I think that her reads are solely focused on Switcher is alarming enough to me.

I would potentially connect these thoughts to the comment I made earlier this day in regards to speculation on her knowing who the DH is if she saw them visit bakermir. I feel a lot stronger about this connection than the one I made earlier, however, and really do believe that she is more likely to flip Triad than Renegade. I will focus on day 3 interaction a bit after, and then move on to Renegade.

[Unknown1234]

Her ISO makes no sense if the argument is based on DM being switcher, but takes almost every opportunity in her posts to suggest that he isn't actually Switcher and that someone else is possible to be switcher. There is a lot of inconsistent thoughts in these messages and it doesn't really make sense from a town POV to push someone for a claim you don't actually ever seem to believe in.

[Unknown1234]

Naz's day 3 comments:

brrrrruuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh
whhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
ooooohmygodddsddsssxbxjwkfbziwoxnajak

Quoting bakermir's death message. This could be a town being frustrated that the target they chose to follow died. Given it's clear naz probably isn't the DH, this could also be potential frustration towards their teammate at picking a target they find unsual.

im working (literally in a work meeting rn) so I can't catch up, did Martin say who he bussed

my target didn't move last night

look at my first post start of day and tell me who u think it was😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

literally don't understand why he was targeted over all the outed tpr??????

The same frustration continued in the next three posts made by them.

why hasn't martin said who he bussed? is it bc he isn't really bus driver?
& fwiw, i think whoever claimed butler day 1 is possibly scum - if their butler peek was actually triad it was a way of scum signaling & if it was town it was a way of pocketing. rly smart play. that was helz right?
still in my 1 on 1 work meeting so still not caught up but just wanted to put in my input - person im in a meeting with is looking for stuff rn lol

baker didn't move last night tho :/
so unless he was a mafia role that didn't move last night, he was likely the cit here
thats why I wanted to know who u bussed, bc i did consider this

& honestly the fact ur not revealing who u bussed makes me think u aren't a bus driver - I think ur scared to make up the swaps bc u don't want to get caught🤪

u fishy <>< 🐟🦭🐠🐡🦈🐳

The next two comments made are naz not believing in Martin's claim. While this does show consistent behavior in her thoughts towards Martin, it once again feels more like discredit than actual scum-hunting.

I was hoping there would've been a cit thunderdome and I could clear/nab one but tee bee dee rn. I'm kinda speed reading atm

Interesting thought to note since she mentions earlier that she thought the game would be filled with TPR's. I don't think this point is enough to consider AI of any sort.

bc I didn't have a read on him?? lol

Her explanation as to why she checked bakermir. Not sure this makes them a better target than a potential triad read, but I don't think there is much to take from this post.

We don't lose frinckles today bc Renegade locked him down last night

-vote dark magician

This comment shows her believing in Renegade's claim. Would be interesting to see what @naz thinks about Renegade now given the current situation.

bruh I wanted helz to be the fake butler since unknown is my friend but after reading his dumpster fire posts it might be the other way at this point smh

I don't really like this post because it invalidates everything that I said. I do admit after re-reading some of my arguments yesterday that I may have been getting confused in the thread, but I disagree that all of my points were a "dumpster fire".

ya i just did my poe finally and I dont think FB can be cit.
if he was, there's no reason not to cc, is there?
dragon head is probably going to kill me tonight lol

Interesting point, although I'm not really sure how she reaches the conclusion on why FrostByte can't be citizen. There is still guaranteed one citizen alive, and MattZed has not been confirmed by any means.

tis why im a low effort player + get scum read a lot for it😅🙂🙃

I would wonder why this wouldn't encourage you to put more effort in, but I don't think this discussion is relevant to your alignment.

bro i s2g
including any of day 1 as a read on me is pointless. i was in shitpost mode the entire time since the day ended before 12 hr had even hit on the clock

anyway
i already said why i picked baker, it was bc i have rose colored glasses when it comes to that person so i had no read on him so needed night feedback to get a sense of direction on him
bakermir is my fav person on this site so i have a bias towards keeping him alive regardless of either of our alignments

if yall want to triad read me, fine, since it keeps me alive, but just know I could never be dh because I would never make that kill

I like the first part since I can genuinely see their reasons behind wanting to check bakermir.

The second part concerns me a bit because it feels like a gesture for them not to be killed with the potential of them being triad.

Overall I can see some improvements in their play this day, but nothing that really stands out to me that would make me believe they're town. I think a major concern I still have is how they didn't hunt for triad until the switcher was removed from the game. Apart from their comments against my arguments and towards Martin potentially not being Bus Driver, I don't feel like I can see them actively scum-hunting during this day either.

[Renegade]

I can definitely see a nazscum universe here.

[naz]

ok cool thank u semantic bullshitter

[Renegade]

ok cool thank u semantic bullshitter

are you anti semantic?

[naz]

are you anti semantic?

that was directed at unknown

[Unknown1234]

The most notable thing about Renegade in the early game is his interaction with Oberon. I stated earlier that I believed most of this felt town-sided because his anger seemed genuine in regards to people taking off their vote when Oberon claimed his role. I read it as frustration that people weren't voting with what he thought was an obvious switcher flailing and not a triad missing a lynch.

Yeah definitely going to vote the switcher claim.

-vote Oberon

Literally no decent reason not to.

I swear if you people buy into this goofy shit and automatically determine that those voting Oberon are scum then you mind as well vote me today, because based on what he is saying I'm not budging.

I've seen some dumb fucking 'big brain' plays here but this one is the worst. It is much more likely he is the switcher.

That is exactly what he is saying.

Zedusmove.

Anyone who scumreads me is scum!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am going to say that a big chunk of this is gut reading based on the emotion. I think that a lot of players can be easy to read based on it, and Renegade was giving me early town-vibes.

Another big thing observed day 1 is how he consistently pushed the idea that switcher was a better role for Triad to keep alive vs town.

Scum desperate to save a switcher?

Keeping switcher around is in scums' favor. The mayhem they will create serves them much better than pushing for a lunch today which already isn't buying anyone townpoints.

I'll die on this hill I don't care.

This big brain play is totally fake to cover for the embarrassing reveal of the switcher. It has already been made abundantly clear why switcher isn't town.

I don't believe that arguing to lynch a switcher on the basis that it's better for Triad to keep alive as AI. I do see in every post that he believes this is the case and continues to push for it because of that. I really don't get the impression that he is triad with any of his posts from day 1. I don't think that his arguments make him town but rather the way that he is doing it that convinces me of this.

Helz v Frostbit smells like TvT to me.

What are all the possible reasons there wasn't a scum night kill?

Can the DH be roleblocked? What about this locksmith role?

These two posts are one of his first few posts made during day 2. Given the question that he asks here it leads me to believe he could have thought that he prevented a night kill on Frinckles. I'm not sure triad!Renegade would ask this question or even do an action at night because of the risks of messing DH or CA up.

Frinckles has decent reasoning and this wouldn't be the first time he thinks I'm tpr/scum. Goofy mulan. I this Frinckles is genuinely trying to reaction test me, so +townpoints for him.

Marino acting strange. Just saying things to say things and sheeping and complimenting Frinckles is kind of goofy.

As far as I can tell, this is the only post I have to go off of as to why he would consider Frinckles town. I didn't read a single time in the thread that made me think Renegade was scum-reading Frinckles, IMO him deciding to protect Frinckles for being a claimed TPR makes a lot of sense. I disagree on the idea that Renegade would risk protecting a claimed TPR role day 1 even if he thought it was his triad teammate. I don't see any inconsistencies that would make me believe otherwise.

While kind of goofy, Town!Frinckles makes more sense to me than Scum!Frinckles.

Renegade's town-read on Frinckles continues into day 2.

So far nothing has come across to me as being overly scummy. I am strongly town-reading Renegade right now for his interactions with people and how I can see why he would have protected Frinckles. A big part of this read may be because of his tone in his posts but there hasn't been anything that has made me think I shouldn't town-read him.

[Unknown1234]

ok cool thank u semantic bullshitter

[MattZed]

I've been busier IRL today than I expected. I can finish my Helz ISO tomorrow morning before EoD, but if everyone's too eager to end day I'm fine doing it over N3.

If I die N3, expect AT LEAST a Helz+Unknown ISO in my LW. Naz+Renegade if I have more time, but don't bet on it.

[Unknown1234]

My internet seems to have gone out for some reason. Hoping to have it back soon since I was about to hit post on another message and had a bit mor to finish up.

[Unknown1234]

He switches and we are in the same boat tomorrow. Goofing around with whoever the switcher switches with claiming OOO I WAS TRAID HAHA GET DW.

I've seen the arguments given on Rengade about how he could be triad since he pushed back so hard on the DM lynch with the thought that he might believe DM is triad and want to avoid his lynch.

There are two situations worth considering.

1.) Renegade is Triad and believes DW is telling the truth about DM being triad and wants to save him from being lynched.

2.) Renegade is Town and believes that DW may or may not be telling the truth about DM's role.

If we were to lynch DM over DW like Renegade did not want, two things could happen.

1.) DW takes another triad role, and says who he took. Whoever he targets is automatically going to claim that they are triad. This would force us into an endless loop which could result in lynching triad or town, but very little guarantees unless we decided on who the Switcher would target next (which wouldn't work anyways if the switcher didn't want to become triad and would target a TR regardless). Lynching DW at this point in the game is arguably the best play because of how likely it is that DM would flip triad given the fact that he never claimed he was switcher originally.

2.) DW takes another town role, and says who he took. The town player is going to claim that they were triad. The exact same situation would happen as #1 until the cycle was ended. This would result in a series of 1v1's until we either felt confident he swapped with a relatively decent town and lynched the switcher, or the game ended.

As far as I'm aware, Renegade never said anything about not lynching DM the next day (unless I'm blind and missed an entire post, nothing specifically saying DM shouldn't be lynched the next day). There is no reason as to why Renegade should be scum-read for this as it is 100% valid what he was thinking. I don't know if this is what he was thinking when he was telling everyone DW was the only lynch, but I give him town points for sticking to this idea.

[Unknown1234]

I feel a lot more confident in my reads. I would like to get to MattZed vs FrostByte at some point if I get the chance but I'm getting to the point where I'm tired and don't want to do more reading than I've already done.

[Dark Magician]

You're obviously not town given that you haven't provided anything useful aside from saying that you're town everyday. Feel free to keep showing up though.

I mean there ain’t much I can do here.

[Dark Magician]

I already gave who I believe the scum team is

[Dark Magician]

I mean Frinckles visited Naz last night.

[Unknown1234]

I already gave who I believe the scum team is

The team you chose is actually impossible because it would leave us with one citizen. It shows how much you're actually paying attention to this game though.

[Frinckles]

I mean Frinckles visited Naz last night.

Wow this is some insight.

But I also said that before you said it. So why are you selling that?

Why would you check me when I'm all but confirmed?

[Unknown1234]

Wow this is some insight.

But I also said that before you said it. So why are you selling that?

Why would you check me when I'm all but confirmed?

I believe he claimed the lookout equivalent of a role. It means he watched naz, which doesn't make a lot of sense regardless.

[Helz]

So at the risk of sounding like an overconfident prick I think I have 3 of the triad found depending on DM's flip. I have spent hours digging through Unknown and the majority of what I have found looks subjective but then there is this little gem:

Unknowns post 2009:

Something did come to my mind though. Wasn't MattZed witched into Frinckles according to Deathworlds? Wouldn't that mean he would have received feedback about the Locksmith action taking place?

Matts post 2015:

If it SOMEHOW becomes relevant, I've never gotten feedback.

But I know for a fact Auwt confirmed you don't get your night action the night you become the Switcher, I'm just too lazy to find the post.

Auwts post 2087

They would indeed receive a feedback, even though they can't move, yeah.

So last night Unknown made the valid point that Matt should have received lock down feedback from being witched into Frinckles N1 if Renegade had lockeddown Frinckles. Matt then verified he did not receive any such feedback and then the Host steps in and confirms he would have. This flatly confirms Unknowns initial insinuation that this feedback should have happened. This creates XXXXX situations:

1- Deathworlds lied about being a witch or witching Matt into Frinckles. This should be cleared up upon DM's flip given theres no reason he would lie about one but not the other.
2- Matt lied about not receiving lockdown feedback
3- Renegade lied about locking down Frinckles and instead had locked down MartinGG

But instead of following up on this line of thought given after DM's flip it could confirm either Matt or Renegade are lying and pretty certainly scum he goes and does his reads where he scum reads Naz and town reads Renegade. Nowhere in his read on Renegade does he make any mention of this.

You see him today throw a double read on Naz that felt like PROBABLY SCUM but maybe town which feels hedgy like he knows he is setting up for a misslynch and wants to be able to point to 'I did see the potential of this guy being town' after the fact.

I also noticed that his read on Renegade did not appear to be much of a double read. It just pushed 'Probably town' while invalidating the points I made on Renegade pushing CW to DM by saying "He didnt hard push." I find it much more common for scum to soft push which is why 'Pillow pushing' is such a significant scum tell.

It is also of note that the unusual interaction between myself and Unknown came around right as I was hard pushing on Renegade and right after Matt had verified that he did not get locksmith feedback. Unknowns very next post excludes Renegade and includes Naz in a scum list (Post 2021):

IMO, the likely 4 triad at the moment appear to be DM, Helz, Naz, and MattZed. I am going to double check something and I would be interested to see if I'm right about my suspicions

Then he cuts into building a case on Naz CW Renegade in 2024 while simultaneously discrediting stating a read I did from a 8 hour D1 on Naz represents an inconsistent read flip.

Then as I start to really push harder calling out Renegade to back up his claim that he sees scummy behavior in me Unknown jumps in with both feet in 2039. He doubles down on his DM, Me, Naz and MZ scum list in 2042. From that point on things get odd. Unknowns reasoning makes much less sense than it has for the entire rest of the game. In post 2064 he even takes the time to quote my post 752

Naz- Naz looks bad. Although I take personal issue with someone joining a game and demanding everyone else change their behavior to cater to how they want to play the frequency yelling about people posting too much felt forced and AI. Off the top of my head it felt like it 90% of his posts were passively excusing his lack of contribution by pointing to the post count and telling people to shut up and stop posting. I could easily see a LHF argument here but I generally see that sort of excusing tunnel vision as AI for inexperienced scum. I understand it takes a while to catch up but note the diffrence between how Deathworlds and Naz did it. I also generally look at the ATE tone as scum sided but thats a subject I suspect some people would debate and I can only say rives from my experience. This player would be in my 'totally lynch if theres not a better option' pool.

FrostByte- This might as well be an empty slot for their D1. I give this player about as much of a read as I would give to a player who didn’t show up D1. Lets pressure for participation? They hit the typical 5 minimum posts exactly.

As we were talking he said I scum read Naz and I said I remember reading her as an empty slot. He quotes 'just the Naz piece' to pressure me while conveniently leaving out the bit on Frostbyte which says "This might as well be an empty slot." I would expect someone solving to notice this and the obvious implication that I had the two players confused in the read I did days ago or even the fact it was built on a hand full of posts in a very short D1 but instead he pushes it like a hard fact that I have flipped my reads while also suggesting that me honestly giving town reads and successfully identifying scum reflects that I am Triad?

When you put these things together it could easily reflect a pattern that shows Unknown figured out Renegade could be Triad, started pushing CW and then intervened on me pressuring Renegade with unnatural posting and reasoning. Then Unknown posts a hedgy double read on Naz being scum followed by a Town read on Renegade.

I really think a Town Unknown would have jumped on their original insinuation that Matt should have locksmith feedback after Matt confirmed he didn't and the host confirmed he would have. This really looks like Triad Unknown has identified Triad Renegade and is pushing CW after attacking me to get me off Renegade. I see no other reason he would not have at least brought this up in his read on Renegade.

[Helz]

Anyways. Heres a deductive logic tree:

If DW did not lie about his action
Then either Matt or Renegade has to be lying

I would advocate that if DM flips sorcerer then there is no reason to believe DW would be honest about that but lie about the night action.

This means Renegade is semi-confirmed Triad upon DM flipping Sorcerer independent of all my reasoning on him.

I also strongly believe the case I just laid out reflects Unknown is Triad independent of Renegades case. There is no town reason to come to the realization that either Renegade or Matt must be lying and then do a deep read on Renegade that excludes that information.

[Helz]

Anyways, I still want to do the post on Unknowns logic thing because I like to keep my word and told him I would but I am comfortable with ending the day whenever the rest of town is.

Now I am going to go celebrate like a fat kid with some milk and cookies : )

[naz]

helz...if matt is lying and that makes him not town doesn't that make u a liar + not butler???

[Helz]

helz...if matt is lying and that makes him not town doesn't that make u a liar + not butler???

Yes. For certain. But I am butler and Matt is town peeked to me so I know for certain its Renegade.

But the thing is that Matt has absolutely no reason to lie about receiving locksmith feedback and even a Triad Matt would have had motivation to claim that feedback when DW claimed his witch night action.

It makes much more sense for Triad Renegade to lie about his night action. This may also be verified in a few hours if when the DM hammer drops Frinckles flips with it.

And honestly even before I figured this little bit out I was pretty damn convinced Renegade was Triad. He didn't even bother to refute anything I said in my post on him.

[FrostByte]

If DW did not lie about his action
Then either Matt or Renegade has to be lying

This setup seems to be designed partially around dumb shit happening with night actions. It's possible that they're all three telling the truth. Operator or Deceiver fuckery could potentially be to blame for claims about night actions seeming illogical or contradictory. They could also all three be lying. Or a combination of both. I think it's dangerous to give hard reads and ultimatums like this based on feedback in this setup, especially this early when so many people are alive and apparently almost everyone is a TPR.
To be very clear, me arguing this point is irrespective of who you're talking about or my reads on them. I'm only discussing logic in a vacuum.






If MattZed was lying about feedback or night actions, why would he take the early initiative to claim that he hasn't received any feedback? If he was trying to win town points there are so many better ways to do that as scum and still give yourself wiggle room to lie about feedback.

I also strongly believe the case I just laid out reflects Unknown is Triad independent of Renegades case. There is no town reason to come to the realization that either Renegade or Matt must be lying and then do a deep read on Renegade that excludes that information.

This is a very good point because very important and pertinent information was excluded from the analysis, but there's always a possibility that he fucked up and omitted it by accident.

Having said all that, I appreciate the amount of effort you're putting in to logically dissect this game. You're doing important and seemingly honest work.

[Helz]

This setup seems to be designed partially around dumb shit happening with night actions. It's possible that they're all three telling the truth. Operator or Deceiver fuckery could potentially be to blame for claims about night actions seeming illogical or contradictory. They could also all three be lying. Or a combination of both. I think it's dangerous to give hard reads and ultimatums like this based on feedback in this setup, especially this early when so many people are alive and apparently almost everyone is a TPR.
To be very clear, me arguing this point is irrespective of who you're talking about or my reads on them. I'm only discussing logic in a vacuum.

This is a very valid point. There are many unclaimed TPR's although if Sorcerer DM and Miller Renegade are it then theres no room for an Operator. I suppose I get a little excited when I put those pieces together that make me relatively certain I have nailed a scum.

If MattZed was lying about feedback or night actions, why would he take the early initiative to claim that he hasn't received any feedback? If he was trying to win town points there are so many better ways to do that as scum and still give yourself wiggle room to lie about feedback.

You guys can WIFOM that shit out. I have a peek so I dont have to worry about it : P

This is a very good point because very important and pertinent information was excluded from the analysis, but there's always a possibility that he fucked up and omitted it by accident.

I feel like its a pretty damning one. There is no way something that significant would get excluded from that read by town. Its a HUGE piece of information that I see as impossible for Unknown not to have realized. Not to mention the odd CW intervention on Renegade and the double read FoS on Naz.

[Renegade]

And honestly even before I figured this little bit out I was pretty damn convinced Renegade was Triad. He didn't even bother to refute anything I said in my post on him.

Because I said I was done engaging with you. I'm ready to end the day.

[Renegade]

Chances are fairly high I'm dead tonight anyway.

[yzb25]

moulder renegade has literally no vested interest to lock down the BD then lie about it and say they visited another TPR. Occam's Razor says matt is cocking up more cuz his attention's torn

[yzb25]

maybe another role could fudge things somehow like Frostbyte said like operator or smth. My brain isn't ready to consider that possibility tbh

[MattZed]

The night action is canceled whenever you become the new Switcher, so the new Switcher would appear to be visiting no one.

My current situation of not receiving feedback is consistent with this above. I have no idea in the world what Helz/Unknown are barking up.

[MattZed]

My current situation of not receiving feedback is consistent with this above. I have no idea in the world what Helz/Unknown are barking up.

Correction: I do know; they only read the post about the fact Citizens can get feedback if they get witched. But my alleged witch would have become the switcher N1, and thus not able to make me do any night actions.

[Helz]

Correction: I do know; they only read the post about the fact Citizens can get feedback if they get witched. But my alleged witch would have become the switcher N1, and thus not able to make me do any night actions.

This does make sense.

I really wish you had waited to see if Unknown knew that though. Lack of it would have all but confirmed he was Triad.

[Helz]

Man you just shit in my cheerios Matt.

[MattZed]

Man you just shit in my cheerios Matt.

What a frightful mental image.